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(io9)   Crucifixion: It's a slow, horrible death. Well at least it gets you out in the open air   (io9.com) divider line 101
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3840 clicks; posted to Geek » on 06 Dec 2013 at 8:44 PM (33 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-06 11:05:11 PM

Mugato: You started out like you were being snarky but at the end of your post you sounded like every other preacher who tried to seriously explain the concept. I still don't know why anything had to be sacrificed in the first place, be it goats or a carpenter or God himself. Oh well, not going to make sense of any of it tonight.


I probably got it lost in the wall of text, but the idea is that people living on the edge of subsistence understand that everything has a price and a cost. The sacrificial model imposes a cost on negative behaviors, and it's suitable for encouraging people to get along and behave for a while. The lists of rules keep people from touching the stove too often. But eventually it's not a good model for people; it runs its course, and it's time to move on.
 
2013-12-06 11:07:41 PM

captainktainer: Mugato: You started out like you were being snarky but at the end of your post you sounded like every other preacher who tried to seriously explain the concept. I still don't know why anything had to be sacrificed in the first place, be it goats or a carpenter or God himself. Oh well, not going to make sense of any of it tonight.

I probably got it lost in the wall of text, but the idea is that people living on the edge of subsistence understand that everything has a price and a cost. The sacrificial model imposes a cost on negative behaviors, and it's suitable for encouraging people to get along and behave for a while. The lists of rules keep people from touching the stove too often. But eventually it's not a good model for people; it runs its course, and it's time to move on.


The problem I have with Christianity as a rule, is it's an utterly uninspiring philosophy. It seems to involve a lot of self-hate.
 
2013-12-06 11:08:05 PM
Depending on where you look, historians estimate that the cross wasn't used as a Christian symbol until the middle or end of the 2nd century. The symbol of the crucifix, with Jesus dead on the cross, didn't show up for another few hundred years.
 
2013-12-06 11:09:53 PM

captainktainer: Mugato: You started out like you were being snarky but at the end of your post you sounded like every other preacher who tried to seriously explain the concept. I still don't know why anything had to be sacrificed in the first place, be it goats or a carpenter or God himself. Oh well, not going to make sense of any of it tonight.

I probably got it lost in the wall of text, but the idea is that people living on the edge of subsistence understand that everything has a price and a cost. The sacrificial model imposes a cost on negative behaviors, and it's suitable for encouraging people to get along and behave for a while. The lists of rules keep people from touching the stove too often. But eventually it's not a good model for people; it runs its course, and it's time to move on.


Sounds good, it's the whole 'hey, you have to murder this guy to make all that effective' part that rubs us the wrong way, and the entire sacrifice model to start with.  Many other faiths, even those from primitive societies, didn't require such things, and many modern ones avoided the issue as well without the need to murder a demi-god.

It sounds like it was a bestseller because it was easy, rather then anyone truly thinking 'yeah, that makes sense'.  Toss in the massive guilt trip and painful retribution for not joining sales tactic, and I can see why it's still popular.
 
2013-12-06 11:37:42 PM

Mugato: MadMattressMack: It's supposed the represent the ultimate sacrifice that God made. To send his own son to death at the hand of man to open the gates of heaven.

I still don't get that. Why does anyone have to die at all? I have to admit that I don't understand even the basic tenant of Christianity. What's really disconcerting is that no preacher has been able to explain it either.



Original sin.  Unless you deeply believe the idea that each and every human is a shiatstain right from the start, the blood sacrifice of Jesus for everyone isn't super awesome, it's merely kinda good.

/I don't buy the original sin idea, so I'm a confirmed heathen.
 
2013-12-06 11:42:44 PM

Bonzo_1116: Unless you deeply believe the idea that each and every human is a shiatstain right from the start, the blood sacrifice of Jesus for everyone isn't super awesome, it's merely kinda good.


That's what I keep asking though, why a blood sacrifice at all? How does killing one of God's creatures please God?
 
2013-12-06 11:44:24 PM

Mugato: How does killing one of God's creatures please God?


My problem is what sort of sacrifice was it anyway? According to the book he just got up and walked away in 3 days anyway. Big frickin' whoop. Seems like most people who got crucified didn't get so lucky. Jesus seems like one of God's cheats.
 
2013-12-06 11:50:50 PM

Confabulat: Mugato: How does killing one of God's creatures please God?

My problem is what sort of sacrifice was it anyway? According to the book he just got up and walked away in 3 days anyway. Big frickin' whoop. Seems like most people who got crucified didn't get so lucky. Jesus seems like one of God's cheats.


He had God Mode activated, coupled with a really safe respawn point.
 
2013-12-06 11:56:27 PM
Why is Judas a bad guy? Christianity wouldn't exist as is without him. I guess free will but I just don't get it. It's almost like this whole thing is some made up allegory. Weird.
 
2013-12-07 12:00:55 AM

Mugato: Bonzo_1116: Unless you deeply believe the idea that each and every human is a shiatstain right from the start, the blood sacrifice of Jesus for everyone isn't super awesome, it's merely kinda good.

That's what I keep asking though, why a blood sacrifice at all? How does killing one of God's creatures please God?



Ahh, you're thinking of the all-powerful omniscient and omnipotent God model.  Think more anthropomorphically, and also back to a time where what you eat is what you kill.  And God needs to eat.


This is some real bloodsport stuff, and the true revolutionary part about the whole Jesus thing is the idea that God will be satisfied with just that last blood-dripping lunch, and no more.
 
2013-12-07 12:12:18 AM

farkingismybusiness: Why is Judas a bad guy? Christianity wouldn't exist as is without him. I guess free will but I just don't get it. It's almost like this whole thing is some made up allegory. Weird.


Judas was a biblical fall guy. I'm not sure if God was going to eventually forgive Judas for dicking him over (One of the disciples had to hand Jesus over to the Romans. Jesus said so himself), but Judas makes God's choice easy and commits suicide


Still, Judas got the bad end of a raw deal
 
2013-12-07 12:12:21 AM

BullBearMS: buntz: Went to Catholic school for 13 years and I still don't understand why the symbol of Christianity is the method by which their savior was killed?

No disrespect intended, but I sincerely don't get it.  Why is the cross, Jesus' electric chair, or firing squad, or gas chamber, or lethal injection, the symbol of holiness?

(I also don't understand why people place memorials on the side of the highway where loved ones were killed.  I would prefer a memorial someplace that I "lived", something I was known for, something I enjoyed!  A celebration of my life.  Not a reminder of my death!)

Watch this video and part two and prepare to be kind of amazed.


+1
 
2013-12-07 12:15:15 AM
www.insmkt.com
 
2013-12-07 12:18:21 AM

Mugato: Antimatter: The idea that God had to sacrifice himself to himself to change the rules he made himself is such a bizarre concept to me.

Good, I'm not the only one. "just because...shut up" never satisfied my curiosity on the subject.


I made this image for a fark thread once (text slightly plagiarized, mostly a paraphrase), was surprised to see it a few years later on another sight. Today, "Tah dah jesus" turns it up in a GIS.

static.fjcdn.com
 
2013-12-07 12:26:25 AM

farkingismybusiness: Why is Judas a bad guy? Christianity wouldn't exist as is without him. I guess free will but I just don't get it. It's almost like this whole thing is some made up allegory. Weird.


It's funny having a rational mind, and once being Christian, and looking back at what I believed. Jesus, being god, had to know "the plan." Judas was obviously a part of it, so how could any Christian hate him. It never even occurred to me at the time (when I believed the story to be true) that anyone hated Judas, because in my mind, Jesus and Judas had to have met beforehand, and Jesus was like "OK turn me in!" and Judas was like "are your sure? That sounds insane! You are God though, whatever."
 
2013-12-07 12:26:59 AM
Not to mention it's damn near impossible to eat M&Ms.
 
2013-12-07 12:32:59 AM

impaler: farkingismybusiness: Why is Judas a bad guy? Christianity wouldn't exist as is without him. I guess free will but I just don't get it. It's almost like this whole thing is some made up allegory. Weird.

It's funny having a rational mind, and once being Christian, and looking back at what I believed. Jesus, being god, had to know "the plan." Judas was obviously a part of it, so how could any Christian hate him. It never even occurred to me at the time (when I believed the story to be true) that anyone hated Judas, because in my mind, Jesus and Judas had to have met beforehand, and Jesus was like "OK turn me in!" and Judas was like "are your sure? That sounds insane! You are God though, whatever."



Judas had the hardest job of all the apostles.  The one who truly failed was Peter, for pussying out three times in a row.
 
2013-12-07 12:41:48 AM

Bonzo_1116: impaler: farkingismybusiness: Why is Judas a bad guy? Christianity wouldn't exist as is without him. I guess free will but I just don't get it. It's almost like this whole thing is some made up allegory. Weird.

It's funny having a rational mind, and once being Christian, and looking back at what I believed. Jesus, being god, had to know "the plan." Judas was obviously a part of it, so how could any Christian hate him. It never even occurred to me at the time (when I believed the story to be true) that anyone hated Judas, because in my mind, Jesus and Judas had to have met beforehand, and Jesus was like "OK turn me in!" and Judas was like "are your sure? That sounds insane! You are God though, whatever."


Judas had the hardest job of all the apostles.  The one who truly failed was Peter, for pussying out three times in a row.


SCUMBAG PETER: Promoted to lead Apostle and head of the Church, denies knowing Christ.
 
2013-12-07 12:56:00 AM

buntz: Went to Catholic school for 13 years and I still don't understand why the symbol of Christianity is the method by which their savior was killed?

No disrespect intended, but I sincerely don't get it.  Why is the cross, Jesus' electric chair, or firing squad, or gas chamber, or lethal injection, the symbol of holiness?


Guilt. It keeps you in line, and makes you give the church more money.
 
2013-12-07 01:01:33 AM

impaler: farkingismybusiness: Why is Judas a bad guy? Christianity wouldn't exist as is without him. I guess free will but I just don't get it. It's almost like this whole thing is some made up allegory. Weird.

It's funny having a rational mind, and once being Christian, and looking back at what I believed. Jesus, being god, had to know "the plan." Judas was obviously a part of it, so how could any Christian hate him. It never even occurred to me at the time (when I believed the story to be true) that anyone hated Judas, because in my mind, Jesus and Judas had to have met beforehand, and Jesus was like "OK turn me in!" and Judas was like "are your sure? That sounds insane! You are God though, whatever."


Exactly.
 
2013-12-07 01:05:28 AM
If they don't understand the physiology of crucifixion death, why don't they run some expts

I absolutely guarantee that there wd be a queue of xian nutjobs who wd think they were following in Jesus's 'footsteps' and thus guaranteeing a trip to heaven
 
2013-12-07 01:27:08 AM

BullBearMS: Watch this video and part two and prepare to be kind of amazed.


I'd be a little more amazed if they didn't harp on December 25th while referring to cultures that had no concept of the Gregorian calendar.
 
2013-12-07 01:38:31 AM

buntz: Went to Catholic school for 13 years and I still don't understand why the symbol of Christianity is the method by which their savior was killed?

No disrespect intended, but I sincerely don't get it.  Why is the cross, Jesus' electric chair, or firing squad, or gas chamber, or lethal injection, the symbol of holiness?

(I also don't understand why people place memorials on the side of the highway where loved ones were killed.  I would prefer a memorial someplace that I "lived", something I was known for, something I enjoyed!  A celebration of my life.  Not a reminder of my death!)


Would this be preferable?

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-12-07 01:49:37 AM

BKITU: Bonzo_1116: impaler: farkingismybusiness: Why is Judas a bad guy? Christianity wouldn't exist as is without him. I guess free will but I just don't get it. It's almost like this whole thing is some made up allegory. Weird.

It's funny having a rational mind, and once being Christian, and looking back at what I believed. Jesus, being god, had to know "the plan." Judas was obviously a part of it, so how could any Christian hate him. It never even occurred to me at the time (when I believed the story to be true) that anyone hated Judas, because in my mind, Jesus and Judas had to have met beforehand, and Jesus was like "OK turn me in!" and Judas was like "are your sure? That sounds insane! You are God though, whatever."


Judas had the hardest job of all the apostles.  The one who truly failed was Peter, for pussying out three times in a row.

SCUMBAG PETER: Promoted to lead Apostle and head of the Church, denies knowing Christ.


i116.photobucket.com
 
2013-12-07 02:40:25 AM

cyberspacedout: Depending on where you look, historians estimate that the cross wasn't used as a Christian symbol until the middle or end of the 2nd century. The symbol of the crucifix, with Jesus dead on the cross, didn't show up for another few hundred years.


Yeah. Before the cross it was the menorah-grail symbol thing.
 
2013-12-07 02:42:54 AM
Jesus Christ that's brutal.
 
2013-12-07 05:15:42 AM

MadMattressMack: buntz: Went to Catholic school for 13 years and I still don't understand why the symbol of Christianity is the method by which their savior was killed?

No disrespect intended, but I sincerely don't get it.  Why is the cross, Jesus' electric chair, or firing squad, or gas chamber, or lethal injection, the symbol of holiness?

(I also don't understand why people place memorials on the side of the highway where loved ones were killed.  I would prefer a memorial someplace that I "lived", something I was known for, something I enjoyed!  A celebration of my life.  Not a reminder of my death!)

It's supposed the represent the ultimate sacrifice that God made. To send his own son to death at the hand of man to open the gates of heaven. Until he died everyone was hanging out in Abraham's Bosom in Hell. When he died they could finally get in. It's to remember that action because at that point people stopped being Jewish and became Christian.

I did 8 years of Catholic school (even was an alter boy much to the continued jokes of my siblings following the sex scandals). I've seen things that have made me believe in God. I have also seen things in the church that made me understand that prayers are bought and sold. The church is built on money, though most of the lower peons, lower priests, and missionaries don't know that. This new pope is really gunning to get me back in a mass for the first time in over a decade, though.


8 years in school and you know more about the church than most lower priests?

What happens if you get in a debate with you and use your tactic of appealing to your own authority?
 
2013-12-07 06:32:16 AM
You know what I believe in?

Waffles on Saturday morning and pork roast in the slow cooker on Sundays.

And guess what.

IT'S SATURDAY MORNING
 
2013-12-07 06:37:04 AM

AtlanticCoast63: ...Well, it's just another cross they gotta bear.


Link
 
2013-12-07 07:16:09 AM

BKITU: Confabulat: Mugato: How does killing one of God's creatures please God?

My problem is what sort of sacrifice was it anyway? According to the book he just got up and walked away in 3 days anyway. Big frickin' whoop. Seems like most people who got crucified didn't get so lucky. Jesus seems like one of God's cheats.

He had God Mode activated, coupled with a really safe respawn point.


What kind of lag do you have to have to wait 3 days to respawn?

/ or less than two.
 
2013-12-07 07:35:31 AM
 
2013-12-07 07:41:30 AM

Smackledorfer: 8 years in school and you know more about the church than most lower priests?


I once made the mistake of asking a priest (my 11th grade theology teacher) a "what if..." question.

I got detention.  For being "bold"
That was my 'crime", I was bold.  Because I asked a "what if..." that went against 'faith'

What it really said to me was the priest didn't have an answer.
 
2013-12-07 09:23:43 AM
If you're lucky a Roman soldier will kill you instead of letting you die from starvation and exposure, but the soldier will be cursed by your idiot followers.
 
2013-12-07 09:47:20 AM

eyeq360: Scaphism. That is all.


Well. THAT was interesting reading.

//Jesus
 
2013-12-07 09:54:26 AM

buntz: Went to Catholic school for 13 years and I still don't understand why the symbol of Christianity is the method by which their savior was killed?

No disrespect intended, but I sincerely don't get it.  Why is the cross, Jesus' electric chair, or firing squad, or gas chamber, or lethal injection, the symbol of holiness?


Bill Hicks did a bit on religion and touched on that.... (*looking*) ...here it is (LGT YouTube).
 
2013-12-07 10:29:50 AM
Nails go in, life goes out
mymememaker.com
 
2013-12-07 11:30:04 AM

Donnchadha: buntz: I also don't understand why people place memorials on the side of the highway where loved ones were killed. I would prefer a memorial someplace that I "lived", something I was known for, something I enjoyed! A celebration of my life. Not a reminder of my death!

Have you ever noticed that only Christians are terrible drivers? You never see any Stars of David or Crescent Moons by the side of the road.


Nice observation there.
 
2013-12-07 11:33:03 AM

buntz: MadMattressMack: It's supposed the represent the ultimate sacrifice that God made.

I understand that.  Again, 13 years of Catholic school.  I, too, was an alter boy.

My issue is why they would choose that as the symbol.  What if they didn't kill Jesus?  Or what is they did but with a sword?

Seriously not trying to be disrespectful to anyone's religion (I'm no longer a follower.  Like I said, 13 years of Catholic school) but have you ever heard the comedian Jake Johannson's routine that said Jesus wasn't crucified but actually slipped and fell in the tub?

Instead of a cross there's a bathtub hanging above the alter.  They bring the shower nozzle down for baptisms.
And instead of doing the sign of the cross before prayers they all wave their arms around and go "whoa whoa WHOA WHOA!!!!!!"


Six years of Catholic school (no longer Catholic...or anything for that matter....although I did Pentecostal for three years in my 20's...but I digress) but THAT was funny.  And makes one think.
 
2013-12-07 11:44:09 AM

farkingismybusiness: Why is Judas a bad guy? Christianity wouldn't exist as is without him. I guess free will but I just don't get it. It's almost like this whole thing is some made up allegory. Weird.


Judas was supposed to be Jesus' best friend.  I belief Jesus asked Judas to 'betray' him.  If you knew you had to die, which Jesus did, who would you want to have betray you?  A random guy off the street or a good friend?  I would choose a friend.  But that would be a pretty shiatty thing to do to a friend.  That could be why Judas killed himself.  couldn't take the mental pain of what he was asked to do.

/I know...citation needed.    sigh....
 
2013-12-07 11:58:33 AM
Scourging and crucifying innocent people is bad, and those who do it should feel bad....
 
2013-12-07 12:08:07 PM
The Journal of the American Medical Association did a story on the physical death of Jesus in 1986.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3512867  (abstract)
 
2013-12-07 12:10:32 PM

bikerbob59: farkingismybusiness: Why is Judas a bad guy? Christianity wouldn't exist as is without him. I guess free will but I just don't get it. It's almost like this whole thing is some made up allegory. Weird.

Judas was supposed to be Jesus' best friend.  I belief Jesus asked Judas to 'betray' him.  If you knew you had to die, which Jesus did, who would you want to have betray you?  A random guy off the street or a good friend?  I would choose a friend.  But that would be a pretty shiatty thing to do to a friend.  That could be why Judas killed himself.  couldn't take the mental pain of what he was asked to do.

/I know...citation needed.    sigh....


Well, there's the Gospel of Judas which sort of explains it.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas
 
2013-12-07 02:04:31 PM

bikerbob59: If you knew you had to die, which Jesus did, who would you want to have betray you?  A random guy off the street or a good friend?  I would choose a friend


You must really hate your best friend then.

Let's face it. This whole story, if pitched in Hollywood, even with their shiatty track record of writing in movies, would be thrown out the window. It has more plot holes, inconsistencies and just general shiat that doesn't make sense than the latest Star Trek movie.
 
2013-12-07 02:13:28 PM

Galileo's Daughter: The Journal of the American Medical Association did a story on the physical death of Jesus in 1986.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3512867  (abstract)


Well, Jesus had a schedule to keep, which is why he died fairly quickly on the cross. He had to be taken off the cross before sundown on Friday by his friends. Otherwise, the Romans would have just left him there until they needed the cross again.
 
2013-12-07 02:15:13 PM

gnosis301: BKITU: Confabulat: Mugato: How does killing one of God's creatures please God?

My problem is what sort of sacrifice was it anyway? According to the book he just got up and walked away in 3 days anyway. Big frickin' whoop. Seems like most people who got crucified didn't get so lucky. Jesus seems like one of God's cheats.

He had God Mode activated, coupled with a really safe respawn point.

What kind of lag do you have to have to wait 3 days to respawn?

/ or less than two.


It was the year 32 AD, man. Broadband wasn't as common back then
 
2013-12-07 07:23:34 PM
Down the hall, to your left, one Cross each...
 
2013-12-07 07:57:51 PM

macross87: Down the hall, to your left, one Cross each...


Heheheheheheheheee. N-nu-nuuuuh! Nuuuuuh! Nnnnnnuhhh...

We got LUMPS of it 'round the BACK!

/Let me shoulder your burden, brother.
//I think it's great what you're doing, macross87.
///You silly sods.
 
2013-12-07 08:06:23 PM

axeeugene: macross87: Down the hall, to your left, one Cross each...

Heheheheheheheheee. N-nu-nuuuuh! Nuuuuuh! Nnnnnnuhhh...

We got LUMPS of it 'round the BACK!

/Let me shoulder your burden, brother.
//I think it's great what you're doing, macross87.
///You silly sods.


Just watched a few Monty Python films. Cannot help but quote it.
 
2013-12-07 09:11:01 PM
Antimatter: The idea that God had to sacrifice himself to himself to change the rules he made himself is such a bizarre concept to me.
================================================

Never made any sense to me either. How a billion people can read that and go 'Sure, that makes perfect sense. Let's praise him for his awesome sacrifice!' just makes no sense to me whatsoever.

And I'm considered a weirdo for being atheist.

/Le sigh.
 
2013-12-07 09:14:51 PM

jake3988: Antimatter: The idea that God had to sacrifice himself to himself to change the rules he made himself is such a bizarre concept to me.
================================================

Never made any sense to me either. How a billion people can read that and go 'Sure, that makes perfect sense. Let's praise him for his awesome sacrifice!' just makes no sense to me whatsoever.

And I'm considered a weirdo for being atheist.

/Le sigh.


Take comfort. I'm Catholic and respect your point of view. You're not a weirdo.
 
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