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(Some Graduate)   State-by-state table summary of average college-loan debt per student, submitted without comment. Except to say that if you graduated from a New Hampshire university, it sucks to be you   (projectonstudentdebt.org ) divider line
    More: Interesting, NHS  
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3130 clicks; posted to Geek » on 06 Dec 2013 at 3:23 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-06 02:16:03 PM  
Looking at the table, my state is about average. I'm earning my bachelor's in 2 weeks with zero student-debt. Of course, it took me 11 years of full-time work and part-time classes to get here. But still, the no student-debt thing feels pretty great. On the other hand, if my debt-load is $26,000 less than average, some poor fools must be dragging the numbers back up.
 
2013-12-06 03:32:33 PM  
Starting to earn money before being saddled with massive debt is silly.
 
2013-12-06 03:34:23 PM  
New Hampshire ?  You mean Delaware  $33k in debt with an average 60% Graduation class?

NH has 32k debt with a 79% Graduation class
that means a lot of people owe in NH but have their degrees.

Sucks to be in North Dakota a 22% Graduation class?  Ewww
 
2013-12-06 03:36:30 PM  
Looks like average is about ~25,000.  That's impossible though.   I've been assured that Millenials need a student loan bailout because they're all making minimum wage and saddled with at least $250K in debt to earn their Humanities degrees.
 
2013-12-06 03:38:18 PM  
The NH numbers are skewed by the sheer number of out-of-state students being gouged by tuition costs.  The in-state costs aren't nearly as bad.
 
2013-12-06 03:39:50 PM  
Should we be proud that it takes us 11 years to go through a 4 year program?

The question should be how long is it going to take to to get a decent paying job in your field once you've graduated.
 
2013-12-06 03:45:15 PM  

Coloman: New Hampshire ?  You mean Delaware  $33k in debt with an average 60% Graduation class?

NH has 32k debt with a 79% Graduation class
that means a lot of people owe in NH but have their degrees.

Sucks to be in North Dakota a 22% Graduation class?  Ewww


That percentage column is weird -- it says "% Represented in Usable Data", which suggests that they were able to get data on 60% of students in Delaware, 79% of students in NH, etc., presumably from the financial aid offices of colleges in those states.  Maybe colleges in Delaware just have really shiatty record keeping.
 
2013-12-06 03:45:50 PM  

hogans: The NH numbers are skewed by the sheer number of out-of-state students being gouged by tuition costs.  The in-state costs aren't nearly as bad.


Yes they are.
 
2013-12-06 03:54:18 PM  

AngryDragon: I've been assured that Millenials need a student loan bailout because they're all making minimum wage and saddled with at least $250K in debt to earn their Humanities degrees.


Protip: the voices in your head are not a reliable source of information.
 
2013-12-06 04:11:47 PM  
Out-of-state Vet School - 300k
Median Starting Salary - 48k

Financial suicide :(
 
2013-12-06 04:15:51 PM  

hogans: The NH numbers are skewed by the sheer number of out-of-state students being gouged by tuition costs.  The in-state costs aren't nearly as bad.


It's not gouging if you volunteer to go there and have cheaper alternatives.  Call it what it is: bad decision making by the students.
 
2013-12-06 04:16:57 PM  

Bossk'sSegway: The question should be how long is it going to take to to get a decent paying job in your field once you've graduated.


The other question is why you still think a degree means a job in that specific field.
 
2013-12-06 04:17:24 PM  

AngryDragon: Looks like average is about ~25,000.  That's impossible though.   I've been assured that Millenials need a student loan bailout because they're all making minimum wage and saddled with at least $250K in debt to earn their Humanities degrees.


And an average of about 50-60% *with* debt (so 40-50% without), meaning that you can come close to doubling that figure if you just look at people in debt.

This is why looking at averages is sometimes misleading, one person debt-free and another owing 50k is not the same at all as two people owing $25,000 (especially with compound interest and with median salaries being 30-35k or so)
 
2013-12-06 04:24:37 PM  

TheAlgebraist: AngryDragon: Looks like average is about ~25,000.  That's impossible though.   I've been assured that Millenials need a student loan bailout because they're all making minimum wage and saddled with at least $250K in debt to earn their Humanities degrees.

And an average of about 50-60% *with* debt (so 40-50% without), meaning that you can come close to doubling that figure if you just look at people in debt.

This is why looking at averages is sometimes misleading, one person debt-free and another owing 50k is not the same at all as two people owing $25,000 (especially with compound interest and with median salaries being 30-35k or so)


You're sort of missing the implied "point". While he may also just be terrible at math, I think the intent was to conflate the small number of people who have managed to rack up $70,000+ debts on baloney degrees (or even no degrees for chronic switchers) with the norm, as if because there's a handful of idiots out there who are carrying around a small townhouse worth of debt for a philosophy major with a minor in bicycle repair there must be no problem and the majority of people carrying hefty debt loads on perfectly reasonable educational careers can't possibly be in any sort of trouble.
Essentially, "because group X of size 1/100 exists and created its own problems, group Y of size 99/100 has no valid complaints about its problems"
 
2013-12-06 04:26:12 PM  

kwame: hogans: The NH numbers are skewed by the sheer number of out-of-state students being gouged by tuition costs.  The in-state costs aren't nearly as bad.

It's not gouging if you volunteer to go there and have cheaper alternatives.  Call it what it is: bad decision making by the students.


It's not quite so simple though.

Universities want more $$$.  I've personally seen it happen several times over the last handful of years, at different Universities.  Instead of admitting 50 in-state students and 10 out-of-state students; they are 'restructuring' their program so that they now have 45 seats for in-state students and 15 for out-of-state students.  That means, for five students, they can either not enter the program, or they are forced out-of-state at much higher tuition.

Students want to go to college....and in some cases, the only legal way to work a particular job IS to go to college.  So it's either abandon their career choice or go out-of-state.  Naturally, the school financial advisers will tell them not to worry and explain how easy it is to apply for loans and pull out charts showing how much more a college degree holder will earn (An extra MILLION DOLLARS!  And we're only charging you 300k!).

More recently - for those of you who haven't dealt with student loans in a while - the government has pissed all over the interest rates.  I paid 4% interest on my undergraduate student loans - now it's 7.9%

70k per year @ 7.9% is astronomical.  And it's accruing while you are a student.
 
2013-12-06 04:31:35 PM  

skozlaw: TheAlgebraist: AngryDragon: Looks like average is about ~25,000.  That's impossible though.   I've been assured that Millenials need a student loan bailout because they're all making minimum wage and saddled with at least $250K in debt to earn their Humanities degrees.

And an average of about 50-60% *with* debt (so 40-50% without), meaning that you can come close to doubling that figure if you just look at people in debt.

This is why looking at averages is sometimes misleading, one person debt-free and another owing 50k is not the same at all as two people owing $25,000 (especially with compound interest and with median salaries being 30-35k or so)

You're sort of missing the implied "point". While he may also just be terrible at math, I think the intent was to conflate the small number of people who have managed to rack up $70,000+ debts on baloney degrees (or even no degrees for chronic switchers) with the norm, as if because there's a handful of idiots out there who are carrying around a small townhouse worth of debt for a philosophy major with a minor in bicycle repair there must be no problem and the majority of people carrying hefty debt loads on perfectly reasonable educational careers can't possibly be in any sort of trouble.
Essentially, "because group X of size 1/100 exists and created its own problems, group Y of size 99/100 has no valid complaints about its problems"


No, I got what he was vomiting, but like all the times I respond to a troll I was doing it for the benefit of the audience and trying to point out the mathematical error inherent in dismissing the (not too unreasonable) $25,000 average.  Whether or not the troll gets, or even acknowledges, my post is immaterial, but we can't have passersby not understanding math.

/It's not a username....it's an obligation.
 
2013-12-06 04:31:45 PM  

skozlaw: You're sort of missing the implied "point". While he may also just be terrible at math, I think the intent was to conflate the small number of people who have managed to rack up $70,000+ debts on baloney degrees (or even no degrees for chronic switchers) with the norm, as if because there's a handful of idiots out there who are carrying around a small townhouse worth of debt for a philosophy major with a minor in bicycle repair there must be no problem and the majority of people carrying hefty debt loads on perfectly reasonable educational careers can't possibly be in any sort of trouble.


And the huge hole in your statement is the assumption that there are some degrees that are worthless.  There are currently astronauts, lawyers, economists, journalists, politicians, filmmakers, doctors, non-profit organizers, financial analysts, and research scientists all holding degrees in philosophy.  Almost no one gets a degree in philosophy to become a professional philosopher.

The value of the degree lies entirely in the student pursuing it, and as soon as people start realizing that, they'll put more effort into the degree itself than into trying to qualify for something they think has a higher value.
 
2013-12-06 04:32:56 PM  
I got my BA in Pennsylvania and my MA in Cali, owe over 130k in loans. I'm farked.
 
2013-12-06 04:32:58 PM  
UNH is suspiciously filled with weird kids from New Jersey. I don't know why.

/UNH grad
 
2013-12-06 04:35:14 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: That means, for five students, they can either not enter the program, or they are forced out-of-state at much higher tuition.


Your assumption requires every higher ed. institution in that state to make that modification.  It doesn't happen.  If your desired degree only exists at one institution and you can't get into that institution, and you can't pursue that field without going out of state, the decision is still on the student.  You CAN choose a different discipline.  You can't really name a field outside of something like nursing that doesn't have a discipline alternative.
 
2013-12-06 04:36:00 PM  

kwame: hogans: The NH numbers are skewed by the sheer number of out-of-state students being gouged by tuition costs.  The in-state costs aren't nearly as bad.

It's not gouging if you volunteer to go there and have cheaper alternatives.  Call it what it is: bad decision making by the students.


I went to a school in-state (PA) and still have a metric crapton of debt. Graduated a semester early and all. I probably could have graduated sooner, but I got epically sick pretty much every semester from the 3rd on. I don't even want to look at what my out-of-state friends from undergrad owe, even if their parents helped pay (mine did not).

/No idea what out-of-state is like elsewhere, but it's double in-state at PSU
 
2013-12-06 04:37:36 PM  

kwame: And the huge hole in your statement is the assumption that there are some degrees that are worthless.


Firstly, I think that he was outlining what he saw at the troll's intention, not his own opinion and secondly

There are currently astronauts, lawyers, economists, journalists, politicians, filmmakers, doctors, non-profit organizers, financial analysts, and research scientists all holding degrees in philosophy.  Almost no one gets a degree in philosophy to become a professional philosopher.

Yeah, that may be true, but:

1) The doctors and lawyers all got professional degrees after their pre-med/pre-law, and that's what got them the job they have now
2) Filmmakers, journalists and especially politicians have no real need for qualifications
3) Research scientists and astronauts:  Yeah, you could get a lot of jobs in the 60's and 70's when the number of degrees was so low that ANY degree set you apart from the herd.  Try pulling that shiat nowadays.  March into a biochemical lab with a philosophy degree in hand and the only job you could get is as a test subject.
 
2013-12-06 04:38:12 PM  

Luthien's Tempest: kwame: hogans: The NH numbers are skewed by the sheer number of out-of-state students being gouged by tuition costs.  The in-state costs aren't nearly as bad.

It's not gouging if you volunteer to go there and have cheaper alternatives.  Call it what it is: bad decision making by the students.

I went to a school in-state (PA) and still have a metric crapton of debt. Graduated a semester early and all. I probably could have graduated sooner, but I got epically sick pretty much every semester from the 3rd on. I don't even want to look at what my out-of-state friends from undergrad owe, even if their parents helped pay (mine did not).

/No idea what out-of-state is like elsewhere, but it's double in-state at PSU


I paid out of state tuition for one year in California. $15k for three semesters.
 
2013-12-06 04:41:31 PM  

kwame: skozlaw: You're sort of missing the implied "point". While he may also just be terrible at math, I think the intent was to conflate the small number of people who have managed to rack up $70,000+ debts on baloney degrees (or even no degrees for chronic switchers) with the norm, as if because there's a handful of idiots out there who are carrying around a small townhouse worth of debt for a philosophy major with a minor in bicycle repair there must be no problem and the majority of people carrying hefty debt loads on perfectly reasonable educational careers can't possibly be in any sort of trouble.

And the huge hole in your statement is the assumption that there are some degrees that are worthless.  There are currently astronauts, lawyers, economists, journalists, politicians, filmmakers, doctors, non-profit organizers, financial analysts, and research scientists all holding degrees in philosophy.  Almost no one gets a degree in philosophy to become a professional philosopher.

The value of the degree lies entirely in the student pursuing it, and as soon as people start realizing that, they'll put more effort into the degree itself than into trying to qualify for something they think has a higher value.


I think it depends on how you define 'worthless'.  Financially speaking, it should be easy to objectively measure the expected value of a degree by looking at things like the median starting salary and the mid-career salary.
 
2013-12-06 04:45:38 PM  

TheAlgebraist: The doctors and lawyers all got professional degrees after their pre-med/pre-law, and that's what got them the job they have now


You're forgetting that they still had to get into medical school.  Medical schools tend to look at things like academic histories.

TheAlgebraist: Filmmakers, journalists and especially politicians have no real need for qualifications


So?  You do understand that there are more careers out there without direct qualification needs than careers that have them, right?

TheAlgebraist: Research scientists and astronauts: Yeah, you could get a lot of jobs in the 60's and 70's when the number of degrees was so low that ANY degree set you apart from the herd. Try pulling that shiat nowadays. March into a biochemical lab with a philosophy degree in hand and the only job you could get is as a test subject


It's interesting that when I say "research scientist" you seem to think BCMB and the like are the only options.  That's the kind of narrow thinking a philosopher tries to avoid.

But I can name 30 or 40 other careers if you want.  Your point is still a very bad one.
 
2013-12-06 04:48:31 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: Financially speaking, it should be easy to objectively measure the expected value of a degree by looking at things like the median starting salary and the mid-career salary.


The problem with that approach is that it's usually done by applying a search only to jobs in those fields.  Disciplines without a linear path to a specific career don't line up well.
 
2013-12-06 04:53:52 PM  

kwame: TheAlgebraist: The doctors and lawyers all got professional degrees after their pre-med/pre-law, and that's what got them the job they have now

You're forgetting that they still had to get into medical school.  Medical schools tend to look at things like academic histories.


Saying that a philosophy degree is valuable because it will get you into another school isn't a point in favour of a philosophy degree.  An undergrad in biology or chemistry or psychology would produce a much better doctor.

TheAlgebraist: Filmmakers, journalists and especially politicians have no real need for qualifications

So?  You do understand that there are more careers out there without direct qualification needs than careers that have them, right?


Yes, of course I understand that, but then you'd be much better off going into a career that doesn't need an undergraduate degree WITHOUT getting an undergrad degree.  You get four+ years of direct experience, entry-level wages, and no school debt.

TheAlgebraist: It's interesting that when I say "research scientist" you seem to think BCMB and the like are the only options.  That's the kind of narrow thinking a philosopher tries to avoid.

That is just one example, and one I picked because it let me use the (joking) prospect of the applicant as research subject rather than scientist.  Name me a few "research scientist" positions that you are more likely to get with a philosophy degree rather than a degree in the associated science (or even a non-associated science)

But I can name 30 or 40 other careers if you want.  Your point is still a very bad one.

By all means, present even ONE career for which a degree in philosophy is the best undergraduate degree you can get.  You said:

Almost no one gets a degree in philosophy to become a professional philosopher.

which is true, but then you go on to try and shoehorn a philosophy degree into careers that don't need it.  Get a philosophy degree if you like philosophy, but don't expect it to open a lot of doors for you afterwards (except those that would be opened by any degree, or by no degree)
 
2013-12-06 04:58:10 PM  

TheAlgebraist: Almost no one gets a degree in philosophy to become a professional philosopher.

which is true,


Let me contradict myself.  I'm sure there are tons and tons of people that enter a philosophy undergrad with the intention of becoming a philosophy professor....far far more than the field can offer positions to.
 
2013-12-06 05:02:58 PM  

raerae1980: Luthien's Tempest: kwame: hogans: The NH numbers are skewed by the sheer number of out-of-state students being gouged by tuition costs.  The in-state costs aren't nearly as bad.

It's not gouging if you volunteer to go there and have cheaper alternatives.  Call it what it is: bad decision making by the students.

I went to a school in-state (PA) and still have a metric crapton of debt. Graduated a semester early and all. I probably could have graduated sooner, but I got epically sick pretty much every semester from the 3rd on. I don't even want to look at what my out-of-state friends from undergrad owe, even if their parents helped pay (mine did not).

/No idea what out-of-state is like elsewhere, but it's double in-state at PSU

I paid out of state tuition for one year in California. $15k for three semesters.


That's about what I paid for two semesters at PSU as an in-state student. :/
 
2013-12-06 05:11:35 PM  

new_york_monty: Looking at the table, my state is about average. I'm earning my bachelor's in 2 weeks with zero student-debt. Of course, it took me 11 years of full-time work and part-time classes to get here. But still, the no student-debt thing feels pretty great. On the other hand, if my debt-load is $26,000 less than average, some poor fools must be dragging the numbers back up.


I'm that fool. I graduated with a little over $100,000 in debt in 2005. Paid it off last year.

On the upside, it makes having a mortgage feel like a total cakewalk.
 
2013-12-06 05:13:17 PM  

TheAlgebraist: By all means, present even ONE career for which a degree in philosophy is the best undergraduate degree you can get.


I never said there was a career in which philosophy was the best degree, although I will say if it's the best discipline for the student, then that's pretty much all it needs to be.

TheAlgebraist: Name me a few "research scientist" positions that you are more likely to get with a philosophy degree rather than a degree in the associated science (or even a non-associated science)


I never claimed philosophy made someone more qualified.  I said they would be qualified.  You're trying far too hard to win this argument, so you end up trying to force a position on me that you can rebut.

TheAlgebraist: Get a philosophy degree if you like philosophy, but don't expect it to open a lot of doors for you afterwards


One area of study in philosophy is ethics.  Just one example, mind you, but there are legal and medical careers explicitly involved in investigating ethics cases in those areas.

I'm not going any farther into a defense of philosophy itself.  I can name hundreds of career opportunities for hundreds of degrees.  The point is that a student in college isn't only going to college to take classes, read textbooks, and pass exams. There are internships, research opportunities, service opportunities, student employment, and a number of other ways to learn and become a strong candidate for a lot of jobs.  The more invested a student is in his/her field of study, the better that academic history usually looks.

The problem with claiming an inherent value to a degree is that it discourages people from studying something they might be very good at.  It encourages them to study something they might be very bad at.  The whole idea of the individual pursuing the degree gets lost.
 
2013-12-06 05:14:43 PM  

TheAlgebraist: I'm sure there are tons and tons of people that enter a philosophy undergrad with the intention of becoming a philosophy professor....far far more than the field can offer positions to.


So?  There are more degree candidates in engineering than there are jobs right now.
 
2013-12-06 05:18:26 PM  
Seriously, paying off your student loans on time is a great way to establish a good credit rating early on. I did it as soon as I could, and was glad as fark that I did.
 
2013-12-06 05:25:55 PM  
FINALLY!

Something Florida ranks well in!  

/Have 1 student loan for 3500.
//Paying on it.
///Doing the rest on Grants
 
2013-12-06 05:38:40 PM  

kwame: I can name hundreds of career opportunities for hundreds of degrees.


And I can tell you none of them are hiring BAs in Philosophy
 
2013-12-06 05:44:53 PM  

TheAlgebraist: skozlaw: TheAlgebraist: AngryDragon: Looks like average is about ~25,000.  That's impossible though.   I've been assured that Millenials need a student loan bailout because they're all making minimum wage and saddled with at least $250K in debt to earn their Humanities degrees.

And an average of about 50-60% *with* debt (so 40-50% without), meaning that you can come close to doubling that figure if you just look at people in debt.

This is why looking at averages is sometimes misleading, one person debt-free and another owing 50k is not the same at all as two people owing $25,000 (especially with compound interest and with median salaries being 30-35k or so)

You're sort of missing the implied "point". While he may also just be terrible at math, I think the intent was to conflate the small number of people who have managed to rack up $70,000+ debts on baloney degrees (or even no degrees for chronic switchers) with the norm, as if because there's a handful of idiots out there who are carrying around a small townhouse worth of debt for a philosophy major with a minor in bicycle repair there must be no problem and the majority of people carrying hefty debt loads on perfectly reasonable educational careers can't possibly be in any sort of trouble.
Essentially, "because group X of size 1/100 exists and created its own problems, group Y of size 99/100 has no valid complaints about its problems"

No, I got what he was vomiting, but like all the times I respond to a troll I was doing it for the benefit of the audience and trying to point out the mathematical error inherent in dismissing the (not too unreasonable) $25,000 average.  Whether or not the troll gets, or even acknowledges, my post is immaterial, but we can't have passersby not understanding math.

/It's not a username....it's an obligation.


Can't even snark on this site anymore.  You guys are no fun...

...Or are Millenials with said Humanities degrees.
 
2013-12-06 05:47:19 PM  

TheAlgebraist: AngryDragon: Looks like average is about ~25,000.  That's impossible though.   I've been assured that Millenials need a student loan bailout because they're all making minimum wage and saddled with at least $250K in debt to earn their Humanities degrees.

And an average of about 50-60% *with* debt (so 40-50% without), meaning that you can come close to doubling that figure if you just look at people in debt.

This is why looking at averages is sometimes misleading, one person debt-free and another owing 50k is not the same at all as two people owing $25,000 (especially with compound interest and with median salaries being 30-35k or so)


FTA:
Percentage of Graduates with Debt and Average Debt of those with Loans, by State

You're wrong.  That's the average debt of a person that has debt.
 
2013-12-06 06:19:33 PM  

flak attack: FTA:
Percentage of Graduates with Debt and Average Debt of those with Loans, by State

You're wrong.  That's the average debt of a person that has debt.


That'll teach me not to read something that's buried all the way down at the top of the chart.... mea culpa

kwame: Name me a few "research scientist" positions that you are more likely to get with a philosophy degree rather than a degree in the associated science (or even a non-associated science)

I never claimed philosophy made someone more qualified.  I said they would be qualified.  You're trying far too hard to win this argument, so you end up trying to force a position on me that you can rebut.


The objectionable claim that you made was that, because there are people in a certain field without holding the correct degrees (e.g. scientific training in the case of a scientific researcher) that meant that a new grad in Philosophy could get those jobs.  You can't apply the hiring practices of 10-30+ years ago to today's job market and it's misleading to do so.Anyone wanting to get a professional position in the 21st century had better have top-notch credentials, coasting in on an unrelated humanities degree is like pinning your hopes on your excellent hockey skills to make you rich.

The problem with claiming an inherent value to a degree is that ....

The guy you responded to used it as an example of the kind of criticism of the student loan problem that should be ignored.  You're the one who had, for some reason, to take it as a personal attack.

And if a degree has a price (which it does) and you are taking it for financial/career reasons (which most people are), then I certainly hope it has some inherent value.
 
2013-12-06 06:20:44 PM  

AngryDragon: TheAlgebraist: skozlaw: TheAlgebraist: AngryDragon: Looks like average is about ~25,000.  That's impossible though.   I've been assured that Millenials need a student loan bailout because they're all making minimum wage and saddled with at least $250K in debt to earn their Humanities degrees.

And an average of about 50-60% *with* debt (so 40-50% without), meaning that you can come close to doubling that figure if you just look at people in debt.

This is why looking at averages is sometimes misleading, one person debt-free and another owing 50k is not the same at all as two people owing $25,000 (especially with compound interest and with median salaries being 30-35k or so)

You're sort of missing the implied "point". While he may also just be terrible at math, I think the intent was to conflate the small number of people who have managed to rack up $70,000+ debts on baloney degrees (or even no degrees for chronic switchers) with the norm, as if because there's a handful of idiots out there who are carrying around a small townhouse worth of debt for a philosophy major with a minor in bicycle repair there must be no problem and the majority of people carrying hefty debt loads on perfectly reasonable educational careers can't possibly be in any sort of trouble.
Essentially, "because group X of size 1/100 exists and created its own problems, group Y of size 99/100 has no valid complaints about its problems"

No, I got what he was vomiting, but like all the times I respond to a troll I was doing it for the benefit of the audience and trying to point out the mathematical error inherent in dismissing the (not too unreasonable) $25,000 average.  Whether or not the troll gets, or even acknowledges, my post is immaterial, but we can't have passersby not understanding math.

/It's not a username....it's an obligation.

Can't even snark on this site anymore.  You guys are no fun...

...Or are Millenials with said Humanities degrees.


I'm no fun.
 
2013-12-06 06:48:44 PM  

TheAlgebraist: flak attack: FTA:
Percentage of Graduates with Debt and Average Debt of those with Loans, by State

You're wrong.  That's the average debt of a person that has debt.

That'll teach me not to read something that's buried all the way down at the top of the chart.... mea culpa

kwame: Name me a few "research scientist" positions that you are more likely to get with a philosophy degree rather than a degree in the associated science (or even a non-associated science)

I never claimed philosophy made someone more qualified.  I said they would be qualified.  You're trying far too hard to win this argument, so you end up trying to force a position on me that you can rebut.

The objectionable claim that you made was that, because there are people in a certain field without holding the correct degrees (e.g. scientific training in the case of a scientific researcher) that meant that a new grad in Philosophy could get those jobs.  You can't apply the hiring practices of 10-30+ years ago to today's job market and it's misleading to do so.Anyone wanting to get a professional position in the 21st century had better have top-notch credentials, coasting in on an unrelated humanities degree is like pinning your hopes on your excellent hockey skills to make you rich.

The problem with claiming an inherent value to a degree is that ....

The guy you responded to used it as an example of the kind of criticism of the student loan problem that should be ignored.  You're the one who had, for some reason, to take it as a personal attack.

And if a degree has a price (which it does) and you are taking it for financial/career reasons (which most people are), then I certainly hope it has some inherent value.


You're clinging to "correct degree."

That's not how the world works anymore.
 
2013-12-06 07:14:49 PM  

kwame: You're clinging to "correct degree."

That's not how the world works anymore.


You're hard to take seriously. 'Anymore'?  If anything it's more true today than 50 years ago, much more true. With the increasing proportion of graduates in every field, employers can have their choice of candidates and their choice of qualifications.
 
2013-12-06 07:27:03 PM  

TheAlgebraist: kwame: You're clinging to "correct degree."

That's not how the world works anymore.

You're hard to take seriously. 'Anymore'?  If anything it's more true today than 50 years ago, much more true. With the increasing proportion of graduates in every field, employers can have their choice of candidates and their choice of qualifications.


Now you're making my point for me. It's starting to feel like you're arguing just to get the last word in.
 
2013-12-06 07:30:27 PM  

kwame: TheAlgebraist: kwame: You're clinging to "correct degree."

That's not how the world works anymore.

You're hard to take seriously. 'Anymore'?  If anything it's more true today than 50 years ago, much more true. With the increasing proportion of graduates in every field, employers can have their choice of candidates and their choice of qualifications.

Now you're making my point for me. It's starting to feel like you're arguing just to get the last word in.


I should explain. An employer who can have his choice of candidates can disregard degree and choose the best candidate, not the best candidate with X degree. With the exception of an extremely small number of fields, that opens the door for more degrees, better candidates.
 
2013-12-06 07:36:42 PM  
kwame:
I should explain. An employer who can have his choice of candidates can disregard degree and choose the best candidate, not the best candidate with X degree. With the exception of an extremely small number of fields, that opens the door for more degrees, better candidates.

If that were true, then more and more job ads would read <any degree> rather than increasingly long and precise lists of qualifications.

And you still haven't mentioned a field of scientific research where a non-science degree is going to get your through the door.
 
2013-12-06 09:32:43 PM  
My fiance and I are pretty much dirt poor.

We are still ahead of pretty much all our friends in net worth, because nearly all of them have 50K+ in loans. Both of us will end up with Bachelors without loans. I can't wait to see how this plays out in the next 20 years. . .
 
2013-12-06 10:58:14 PM  

Peki: My fiance and I are pretty much dirt poor.

We are still ahead of pretty much all our friends in net worth, because nearly all of them have 50K+ in loans. Both of us will end up with Bachelors without loans. I can't wait to see how this plays out in the next 20 years. . .


Depends on what you're doing.

Whip through college in 4 years to get a Computer Science or other TE degree with $100K in debt to immediately jump out and make $50K+ (and I was getting offered $110K on the coasts and $60K in Detroit (which for all of its other issues is at least *cheap*, so I could dump $20K/year into student loans easy)), and smash through the loans before you're 30?  Smart decision.

Spend 10 years doing college part-time for your Social Services degree (According to my cousin who did it, max pay: $30K) and leave with no debt?  Smart decision.

/And yeah, there's ways to make it cheaper.  Taking every single AP exam they offer (40-50 credits here), doing the non-major courses at the local CC while attending the big university part-time, having your parents get divorced and then unemployed so you get a more-or-less free ride for 2 years and leave with $15K in debt instead of the planned $40K...
//But at the end of the day, it's about expected returns.  A guy at 30 with 10 years of TE industry experience who just finished paying off his debt is better off than the same guy at 30 who went part-time, and just got out of college.
///Cash - debts: -$25K or so.  But it was -$40K or so last January.  And I took the shiatty job that doesn't pay well because I learned more at the interview than I did in some of my college courses.
 
2013-12-07 01:28:23 AM  

meyerkev: Depends on what you're doing.


Well, I'm a long and distinguished story, but we'll leave it at currently working as a community organizer for a local church. I've given up on ever earning a steady paycheck again (PTSD plus other mental health issues), so I'm focusing on what I *can* do with my life. I'd like to go back to graduate school, but I'm gonna need a fistful of scholarships to do that.

He's a musician. You'll laugh, but the farker's good. Straight As, probably will go for his Master's, and if he can pick up studio work he'll be golden. Considering he's already got 20+ years experience as a performing musician under his belt (he was playing the piano at 4), he'll be fine. My plan is to save as much of his income as possible so we can stash it into the stock market. As it is, we'll have a million dollars in about 50 years, so anything more we can put in just makes everything that much closer.

Honestly? I think it'll be about a push. Our income will probably be lower over time, but they have the debt to kick out. *shrug*
 
2013-12-07 09:02:08 AM  

new_york_monty: Looking at the table, my state is about average. I'm earning my bachelor's in 2 weeks with zero student-debt. Of course, it took me 11 years of full-time work and part-time classes to get here. But still, the no student-debt thing feels pretty great. On the other hand, if my debt-load is $26,000 less than average, some poor fools must be dragging the numbers back up.


from a pure # crunching perspective, that very well may not have been a sound financial decision.
from a logistics perspective, it may well have been your only choice, granted....
 
2013-12-07 09:06:42 AM  
kwame:

I should explain. An employer who can have his choice of candidates can disregard degree and choose the best candidate, not the best candidate with X degree. With the exception of an extremely small number of fields, that opens the door for more degrees, better candidates.

do enumerate this "small number of fields"
 
2013-12-07 09:12:21 AM  

meyerkev: /And yeah, there's ways to make it cheaper. Taking every single AP exam they offer (40-50 credits here), doing the non-major courses at the local CC while attending the big university part-time, having your parents get divorced and then unemployed so you get a more-or-less free ride for 2 years and leave with $15K in debt instead of the planned $40K..


I can't speak for every discipline or every university, but at mine we are seriously going to revamp {soon} the whole AP credit in our degree program (Chemical Engineering) .  Kids may well be very smart, but most have no recall. Ace out Calc1,2, take Calc3 Freshman year? Great. Except that they don't remember any of it Junior/Senior year when needing to take Heat Transfer/ Mass Transfer/etc.  Solution? Admittedly still being discussed; but we're tired of devoting the first 2-3 weeks in these courses as "math refreshers".  The same issue arises with AP'ing out of enough chemistry. No recall of fundamentals of inorganic/PChem related topics.  Have to spend 2-3 weeks in almost every specialty elective refreshing key concepts of basic chemistry.

/sigh
// csb
 
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