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(NPR)   While we celebrate Nelson Mandela as a universal symbol of freedom, let's remember he was probably turned in by the CIA   (npr.org) divider line 88
    More: Fail, CIA, Nelson Mandela, South African President Nelson Mandela, political freedom, Steve Inskeep, President of South Africa, symbols  
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2027 clicks; posted to Politics » on 06 Dec 2013 at 12:38 PM (38 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-06 11:42:06 AM
Technically, he was also a terrorist.

Of course, that doesn't really matter if, in the end, you win.
 
2013-12-06 11:47:34 AM
I also want to point out that I wasn't making a judgement on the righteousness of ending apartheid.
 
2013-12-06 11:52:13 AM
The FAIL tag must be for subby who thinks we're going to listen to a recorded broadcast on Fark.
 
2013-12-06 11:54:21 AM

SecretAgentWoman: The FAIL tag must be for subby who thinks we're going to listen to a recorded broadcast on Fark.


Wait a day and the transcript will be available at the very same link.
 
2013-12-06 12:35:51 PM
Reading the accounts of so many conservatives in the 80s and 90s who were so pro-apartheid is quite revealing.
 
2013-12-06 12:43:43 PM
I had just assumed that that was the case.
 
2013-12-06 12:48:44 PM

DamnYankees: Reading the accounts of so many conservatives in the 80s and 90s who were so pro-apartheid is quite revealing.


They were not racist. They merely recognized the difficulties and complexities of so drastically changing a fundamental social policy. This change would be especially complicated because we all know how "those people" would behave once they were no longer put in their place.
 
2013-12-06 12:49:57 PM
 
2013-12-06 12:55:03 PM
The Iron Coont - Thatcher called him a terrorist.  She also supported Pinochet.  She just has a lovely track record doesn't she?
 
2013-12-06 12:57:17 PM

DamnYankees: Reading the accounts of so many conservatives in the 80s and 90s who were so pro-apartheid is quite revealing.

 
A lot of it had to do with the ANC's close ties and financial support with the Soviets.  The United States viewed Mandela and the ANC as communists who utilized terrorism.  We really didn't want the pro-Western apartheid government overthrown and replaced with a pro-Soviet one.  So we turned a blind eye to an oppressive government to keep the Commies in check.  Something we seemed to do a lot of after WWII.

  

dittybopper: Technically, he was also a terrorist.


One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
 
2013-12-06 12:57:36 PM
The occasion was a Feb. 24 news conference. The question, from ABC's Sam Donaldson, asked why the president is so gung-ho on ''freedom fighters'' elsewhere and so tepid on those fighting for freedom from apartheid in South Africa, and Reagan answered with these memorable words:

''Well, the difference is that we don't have an armed insurrection going, as we have in some other countries, and we have a great division even among the people who are being oppressed. It is a tribal policy more than it is a racial policy, and that is one of the most difficult parts here.''

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1988-03-17/news/0020390282_1_sou th -africa-apartheid-in-south-ronald-reagan
 
2013-12-06 12:59:58 PM

DamnYankees: Reading the accounts of so many conservatives in the 80s and 90s who were so pro-apartheid is quite revealing.


Fun fact:  This morning I flipped between all the network and cable morning news shows as they started at 7.  All of them led with Mandela except for Fox News.  Over the following hour I continued flipping back and forth.  Not once did I see Fox News mentioning Mandela, while everyone else was pretty much devoting 100% of their time to him.
 
2013-12-06 01:01:06 PM

BillClintonsCigar: ''Well, the difference is that we don't have an armed insurrection going, as we have in some other countries, and we have a great division even among the people who are being oppressed. It is a tribal policy more than it is a racial policy, and that is one of the most difficult parts here.''


Ladies and gentlemen, The Great Communicator.
 
2013-12-06 01:04:23 PM

Dinjiin: dittybopper: Technically, he was also a terrorist.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.


upload.wikimedia.org

You don't say.
 
2013-12-06 01:07:19 PM

dittybopper: Technically, he was also a terrorist.

Of course, that doesn't really matter if, in the end, you win.


He was also Socialist, advocate of "Scientific Socialism" and fellow traveler of South African Communist Party. Which, I think, was more important reason right wing didn't like him in those days than any racial issues. If only ANC had ditched that malignant ideology, the foreign support for the apartheid regime would have collapsed far sooner.

What I worry these days regarding South Africa is that the current ANC regime goes Full Retard with the ol' Marxism-Leninism and jumps off the same cliff as Zimbabwe did...
 
2013-12-06 01:08:38 PM
Thanks Obama!
 
2013-12-06 01:09:19 PM

dittybopper: Technically, he was also a terrorist.

Of course, that doesn't really matter if, in the end, you win.


Technically, so were the founding fathers of the United States.  And, yeah, they won, which is why our money doesn't have the farking Queen on it today.
 
2013-12-06 01:09:47 PM

wxboy: DamnYankees: Reading the accounts of so many conservatives in the 80s and 90s who were so pro-apartheid is quite revealing.

Fun fact:  This morning I flipped between all the network and cable morning news shows as they started at 7.  All of them led with Mandela except for Fox News.  Over the following hour I continued flipping back and forth.  Not once did I see Fox News mentioning Mandela, while everyone else was pretty much devoting 100% of their time to him.


*checks Fox News out of boredom*

Oh look they are talking about Nelson Mandela.
 
2013-12-06 01:12:32 PM

dittybopper: Technically, he was also a terrorist.


So was everyone who signed the Declaration of Independence.  The American Revolution was the first guerrilla war.

Of course, that doesn't really matter if, in the end, you win.

Yup
 
2013-12-06 01:12:56 PM
Back then you were either a communist, or white.
 
2013-12-06 01:14:57 PM
Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and side with the guy that was fighting against Apartheid. Call him a terrorist or a communist or whatever.
 
2013-12-06 01:15:03 PM

FarkedOver: The Iron Coont - Thatcher called him a terrorist.  She also supported Pinochet.  She just has a lovely track record doesn't she?


She was wrong about everything. We all know that. Reagan was the same, both were vile pieces of shiat.
 
2013-12-06 01:15:26 PM

violentsalvation: wxboy: DamnYankees: Reading the accounts of so many conservatives in the 80s and 90s who were so pro-apartheid is quite revealing.

Fun fact:  This morning I flipped between all the network and cable morning news shows as they started at 7.  All of them led with Mandela except for Fox News.  Over the following hour I continued flipping back and forth.  Not once did I see Fox News mentioning Mandela, while everyone else was pretty much devoting 100% of their time to him.

*checks Fox News out of boredom*

Oh look they are talking about Nelson Mandela.


ANECDOTE FIGHT!
 
2013-12-06 01:16:44 PM

violentsalvation: wxboy: DamnYankees: Reading the accounts of so many conservatives in the 80s and 90s who were so pro-apartheid is quite revealing.

Fun fact:  This morning I flipped between all the network and cable morning news shows as they started at 7.  All of them led with Mandela except for Fox News.  Over the following hour I continued flipping back and forth.  Not once did I see Fox News mentioning Mandela, while everyone else was pretty much devoting 100% of their time to him.

*checks Fox News out of boredom*

Oh look they are talking about Nelson Mandela.


Of course they are.  They need to get people thinking about how he was a commie who did nothing, etc., etc.  Take a look at the Weeners on TFA for an example of Fox's homegrown "journalism."
 
2013-12-06 01:17:36 PM

Dimensio: DamnYankees: Reading the accounts of so many conservatives in the 80s and 90s who were so pro-apartheid is quite revealing.

They were not racist. They merely recognized the difficulties and complexities of so drastically changing a fundamental social policy. This change would be especially complicated because we all know how "those people" would behave once they were no longer put in their place.


I'm still waiting for those MASSIVE RACE RIOTS in the wake of the Trayvon Martin verdict.  You know how "those people" are.

I also think it's amusing how, for example, a white American racist will equivocate with white people in another nation and similarly equivocate the blacks of SA with the blacks of Mississippi or Harlem or Ethiopia (which are technically semitic but they look black to white Americans) and assume their desires, motivations, and behavior are equivalent.

Some people have to have a "those people".  Life is easier this way.

Not that this kind of lazy, provincial thinking is exclusive to either whites (which isn't even a real thing) or Americans.
 
2013-12-06 01:18:04 PM

MirrorField: malignant ideology


How was that malignant?
 
2013-12-06 01:18:41 PM

Dimensio: DamnYankees: Reading the accounts of so many conservatives in the 80s and 90s who were so pro-apartheid is quite revealing.

They were not racist. They merely recognized the difficulties and complexities of so drastically changing a fundamental social policy. This change would be especially complicated because we all know how "those people" would behave once they were no longer put in their place.


Yeah! It's not racist to want to keep a system of government enforcement keeping black people from going to school, working, marrying/farking/living near white people, or generally improving their stations in life simply because you think the short-term economic "harm" done to them (never mind that there's plenty of "harm" in the status quo ante) outweighs their desire to be fully equal citizens in their own country.

It's just good economics to keep black people down sometimes.
 
2013-12-06 01:19:15 PM

dr_blasto: FarkedOver: The Iron Coont - Thatcher called him a terrorist.  She also supported Pinochet.  She just has a lovely track record doesn't she?

She was wrong about everything. We all know that. Reagan was the same, both were vile pieces of shiat.


May she rust in pieces.
 
2013-12-06 01:19:51 PM

wxboy: DamnYankees: Reading the accounts of so many conservatives in the 80s and 90s who were so pro-apartheid is quite revealing.

Fun fact:  This morning I flipped between all the network and cable morning news shows as they started at 7.  All of them led with Mandela except for Fox News.  Over the following hour I continued flipping back and forth.  Not once did I see Fox News mentioning Mandela, while everyone else was pretty much devoting 100% of their time to him.


That is farking unreal. Not surprising, though.
 
2013-12-06 01:22:19 PM

violentsalvation: wxboy: DamnYankees: Reading the accounts of so many conservatives in the 80s and 90s who were so pro-apartheid is quite revealing.

Fun fact:  This morning I flipped between all the network and cable morning news shows as they started at 7.  All of them led with Mandela except for Fox News.  Over the following hour I continued flipping back and forth.  Not once did I see Fox News mentioning Mandela, while everyone else was pretty much devoting 100% of their time to him.

*checks Fox News out of boredom*

Oh look they are talking about Nelson Mandela.


Well, to be fair on my part, this would have been during "Fox and Friends", so probably one of the worst times to make a fair judgement of the whole network.  Once when I flipped over, they were talking to Geraldo about some nonsense.  Another time they had some sort of music act on.
 
2013-12-06 01:23:24 PM
Saw CNN's coverage last night. Was expecting Wolf to declare Mandela alive and that he had just gained superpowers through exposure to gamma rays.
 
2013-12-06 01:23:36 PM

MirrorField: dittybopper: Technically, he was also a terrorist.

Of course, that doesn't really matter if, in the end, you win.

He was also Socialist, advocate of "Scientific Socialism" and fellow traveler of South African Communist Party. Which, I think, was more important reason right wing didn't like him in those days than any racial issues. If only ANC had ditched that malignant ideology, the foreign support for the apartheid regime would have collapsed far sooner.


That's probably not true. The Apartheid state was pro-America. So to get foreign support the ANC allied with the Soviets. If the ANC had held itself up as pro-American as well they wouldn't have gotten Soviet support but they also probably wouldn't have gotten American support since America's foreign policy record shows we don't really care what happens in a country as long as that country supports us.
 
2013-12-06 01:24:56 PM
MirrorField: If only ANC had ditched that malignant ideology, the foreign support for the apartheid regime would have collapsed far sooner.

Well, if the two leading Western democracies basically tell you tough shiat, we're going to keep doing business with the white racists, what is the logical choice to make if you're looking for support?
 
2013-12-06 01:25:43 PM

dr_blasto: FarkedOver: The Iron Coont - Thatcher called him a terrorist.  She also supported Pinochet.  She just has a lovely track record doesn't she?

She was wrong about everything. We all know that. Reagan was the same, both were vile pieces of shiat.


The conflicting thing of her is that she used the Dead Parrot sketch to describe the liberal party.

The good thing is that she's passed on. This politician is no more. She has ceased to be, she's expired and gone to meet her maker. She's a stiff, bereft of life, she rests in peace.
 
2013-12-06 01:26:02 PM
I'm picturing Lardbaugh strapped into a restraint chair, wild-eyed, sweating, panting, screaming for somebody to bring him a microphone so he can go full retard on Mandela, but his new minders, the ones brought in since his "slutty slut sluts are sluts" debacle, just keep feeding him glazed donuts and oxycontin, waiting for it to blow over.

Or maybe they just mute his mike, air a repeat and hope he doesn't find out.

Or they could give him a Forget Me Now.
 
2013-12-06 01:26:42 PM

SecretAgentWoman: The FAIL tag must be for subby who thinks we're going to listen to a recorded broadcast on Fark.


This

Do I look like marfarkingconi?
 
2013-12-06 01:27:54 PM
DamnYankees: Reading the accounts of so many conservatives in the 80s and 90s who were so pro-apartheid is quite revealing.

Thus the essence of conservatism: If it ain't broke don't "fix" it. On one side Apartheid, which treated blacks like inmates, but well fed and cared for inmates (as long as you didn't cause trouble for the ruling class), and on the other side, you had the violent, destructive, corrupt, dysfunctional rest of Africa.

So yeah, I can see resisting turning over a prosperous, functioning country over to people who pretty much appeared they would wreck the joint just like the rest of Africa. Y'know, like how the savages trashed Rhodesia and turned it into the wreck now known as Zimbabwe.

I'm grateful Mandela turned out to be such a great man. He had every right to scream for vengance, but chose  forgiveness and progress. A truely advanced human being. I just hope the ANC doesn't go full derp and Zimbabwe the place....
 
2013-12-06 01:28:32 PM

Dr Dreidel: Dimensio: DamnYankees: Reading the accounts of so many conservatives in the 80s and 90s who were so pro-apartheid is quite revealing.

They were not racist. They merely recognized the difficulties and complexities of so drastically changing a fundamental social policy. This change would be especially complicated because we all know how "those people" would behave once they were no longer put in their place.

Yeah! It's not racist to want to keep a system of government enforcement keeping black people from going to school, working, marrying/farking/living near white people, or generally improving their stations in life simply because you think the short-term economic "harm" done to them (never mind that there's plenty of "harm" in the status quo ante) outweighs their desire to be fully equal citizens in their own country.

It's just good economics to keep black people down sometimes.


I like to hear from any expat South African or Sub-Saharan African Farkers on this. Every one I've ever run into described him as a cross between George Washington and Moses with a side of Jesus.

I really don't think most Americans can grasp just how fubar the system he was fighting against was.

Only time I've ever heard anyone 'diss' him was a (white) south African girl I dated in college. I broke up with her literally on the spot.
 
2013-12-06 01:30:01 PM

dittybopper: SecretAgentWoman: The FAIL tag must be for subby who thinks we're going to listen to a recorded broadcast on Fark.

Wait a day and the transcript will be available at the very same link.


But I'm interested now!
 
2013-12-06 01:31:50 PM

FarkedOver: The Iron Coont - Thatcher called him a terrorist.  She also supported Pinochet.  She just has a lovely track record doesn't she?


Remember it well.. my dad would say much the same along the lines of "if the blacks got power it would be a bloodbath".

Isn't it depressing that the right can be on the wrong side of history so often yet never get called out for it later... "yeah, Mandela was a great man but this gay marriage shiat is evil" ..
 
2013-12-06 01:32:14 PM
Rapmaster2000

equivocate

[inigomontoya.jpg]
 
2013-12-06 01:33:13 PM

Geotpf: Technically, so were the founding fathers of the United States. And, yeah, they won, which is why our money doesn't have the farking Queen on it today.


You say that like it is a good thing.

There have been a couple of what-if books published that theorize on how things would be different if we lost the Revolutionary War.  In most of them, we still come out fairly well.  It is even suggested that WWII never would have started since the Germans wouldn't want the Brits to get involved if America was still part of the British Commonwealth.
 
2013-12-06 01:42:57 PM

Dimensio: DamnYankees: Reading the accounts of so many conservatives in the 80s and 90s who were so pro-apartheid is quite revealing.

They were not racist. They merely recognized the difficulties and complexities of so drastically changing a fundamental social policy. This change would be especially complicated because we all know how "those people" would behave once they were no longer put in their place.


Don't believe those voices. They were using the same arguments dyed-in-the-wool segregationists were using in the late 50s and 60s -- "If you send the National Guard into Little Rock, it will just cause more violence! Let us take things at a more... reasonable... pace. We know the situation much, much better!"

And, of course, their 'pace' would be no pace at all.

Same argument Adolph Rupp used, for example, for not having any blacks on his Kentucky basketball team: it'd be too dangerous for them, playing in other cities. He didn't want to put them in harm's way.
 
2013-12-06 02:01:21 PM
Also, Dick Cheney voted against the anti-apartheid act because it recognized Mandela's group in the struggle.  He still doesn't regret that decision and still says Mandela was a terrorist.

/Joe Barton, Howard Coble, Hal Rogers, and Ralph Hall all also voted against the act.
//They're still making our laws today.
///Cue "Scary" Tag.
 
2013-12-06 02:07:21 PM

skullkrusher: FarkedOver: The Iron Coont - Thatcher called him a terrorist.  She also supported Pinochet.  She just has a lovely track record doesn't she?

No she just wasn't very consistent in naming terrorists. Ronnie had the same affliction. Libyan airplane bombers, terrorists. Irish school bus bombers, freedom fighters.


I could be wrong but didn't they like Pinochet because his ideology agreed with theirs?

If Mandela was a right-winger, he would've gotten support from Reagan and Thatcher.
 
2013-12-06 02:15:42 PM

Mrtraveler01: skullkrusher: FarkedOver: The Iron Coont - Thatcher called him a terrorist.  She also supported Pinochet.  She just has a lovely track record doesn't she?

No she just wasn't very consistent in naming terrorists. Ronnie had the same affliction. Libyan airplane bombers, terrorists. Irish school bus bombers, freedom fighters.

I could be wrong but didn't they like Pinochet because his ideology agreed with theirs?

If Mandela was a right-winger, he would've gotten support from Reagan and Thatcher.


Pinochet's regime was a failed experiment in Austrian School economics.  Also it was pretty fascist.
 
2013-12-06 02:21:56 PM

mark12A: DamnYankees: Reading the accounts of so many conservatives in the 80s and 90s who were so pro-apartheid is quite revealing.

Thus the essence of conservatism: If it ain't broke don't "fix" it. On one side Apartheid, which treated blacks like inmates, but well fed and cared for inmates (as long as you didn't cause trouble for the ruling class), and on the other side, you had the violent, destructive, corrupt, dysfunctional rest of Africa.

So yeah, I can see resisting turning over a prosperous, functioning country over to people who pretty much appeared they would wreck the joint just like the rest of Africa. Y'know, like how the savages trashed Rhodesia and turned it into the wreck now known as Zimbabwe.

I'm grateful Mandela turned out to be such a great man. He had every right to scream for vengance, but chose  forgiveness and progress. A truely advanced human being. I just hope the ANC doesn't go full derp and Zimbabwe the place....


So basically you're saying "[Ending apartheid] would be especially complicated because we all know how "those people" would behave once they were no longer put in their place."
 
2013-12-06 02:22:03 PM

violentsalvation: wxboy: DamnYankees: Reading the accounts of so many conservatives in the 80s and 90s who were so pro-apartheid is quite revealing.

Fun fact:  This morning I flipped between all the network and cable morning news shows as they started at 7.  All of them led with Mandela except for Fox News.  Over the following hour I continued flipping back and forth.  Not once did I see Fox News mentioning Mandela, while everyone else was pretty much devoting 100% of their time to him.

*checks Fox News out of boredom*

Oh look they are talking about Nelson Mandela.


You mean Al Qaida number 2 Nelson "Abdul Death to America" Mandela (D)?
 
2013-12-06 02:24:41 PM

skullkrusher: FarkedOver: Mrtraveler01: skullkrusher: FarkedOver: The Iron Coont - Thatcher called him a terrorist.  She also supported Pinochet.  She just has a lovely track record doesn't she?

No she just wasn't very consistent in naming terrorists. Ronnie had the same affliction. Libyan airplane bombers, terrorists. Irish school bus bombers, freedom fighters.

I could be wrong but didn't they like Pinochet because his ideology agreed with theirs?

If Mandela was a right-winger, he would've gotten support from Reagan and Thatcher.

Pinochet's regime was a failed experiment in Austrian School economics.  Also it was pretty fascist.

Chicago School.


Meh same difference.  Hayek and all that jazz.
 
2013-12-06 02:32:06 PM
Mandela was a terrorist. And F.W. De Clerck was a traitor.

Interesting way to think of it, isn't it?
 
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