If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Slate)   It looks like Katie Couric is the latest addition to the anti-vaxxer idiot brigade   (slate.com) divider line 96
    More: Dumbass, Katie Couric, Amanda Marcotte, Double X, brigades, AlterNet, HPV Vaccine, CBS Evening News, Dr. Andrew Wakefield  
•       •       •

10151 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Dec 2013 at 12:13 PM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2013-12-05 12:28:50 PM  
11 votes:

Ex-Texan: Let their kids contract diseases easily prevented by vaccines, then place the burden of care on the parents.. Teh Bible is not an approved method of treatment.


Plenty of the anti-vaccers aren't bible thumpers.  They're leftist granola eaters who hate all the "preservatives" because they'll give little Jayden or Moonbeam teh autism.  Trying to make this a left/right issue is bullshiat.  The crazies are on both sides.
2013-12-05 12:52:59 PM  
9 votes:
Katie, Katie...I am disappointed.  Oh look, her website has an ask me a question section.  No problem Katie.  Hope to get an answer soon!

www.shemj.com
2013-12-05 12:24:54 PM  
8 votes:
For the outraged, this is what actually happened:

- Couric's show runs out of ideas, lets in an anti-vac nutter on the program over yet another fake controversy.
- Writer for clickbait-site writes clickbaity exaggeration about how Couric let the derp side walk over her.
- Fark headline exaggerates iffy story a second time, proclaims that Couric joined the derp side.

Final tally: mild disappointment, vows to not watch a show that I don't watch in first place
2013-12-05 12:52:10 PM  
4 votes:

JesusJuice: I'm sorry that happened, but I don't for a second believe that it was the vaccine. It seems more likely blaming the vaccine is a story you tell yourself to create an illusion of control: 'it wasn't a random tragedy, it was that evil vaccine.' I'm not buying it, and neither should anyone else. Sorry for your loss.


I think it's plausible that his poor child really did die of a vaccine reaction, although that doesn't diminish my opinion of vaccines one bit.

Serious vaccine mishaps are vanishingly rare, but there are hundreds of millions of people in our country, and it stands to reason that we will occasionally encounter a victim or a victim's friend/relative, especially on the news or the Internet.

The problem is that our hyperconnected culture and its muckraking, unscrupulous media give outsized influence to people who are frightfully unlucky victims of tragedies that are, nonetheless, statistically insignificant and not worth worrying about for the general public.  And that's not even counting people who are just wrong about whatever the vaccine's supposed to have caused.
2013-12-05 12:16:47 PM  
4 votes:
More like she opened her wallet and pandered.  Not really the same thing, just as shiatty to be sure, but not the same.
2013-12-05 04:14:57 PM  
3 votes:

tlars699: I would also like to note that at the time, I was documenting everything regarding their behavior in a journal to be shared/updated between their father and I, so he could have an accurate picture on how they were developing.

After this stage(shots had been taken for over 6 months), and once it became clear that their father was misinforming me via said journal, we stopped doing that altogether. :\


Your entire premise was flawed, as it is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacious assumption without any evidence supporting.

To be quite frank, studies have not only found that vaccines did not worsen the symptoms of autism, but that the symptoms were present as early as three months of life, before six month and one year vaccinations were given.
2013-12-05 01:37:57 PM  
3 votes:

skozlaw: Carn: So, if you refuse to vaccinate yourself or your kid against pertussis, congratulations, you're indirectly responsible for the death of infants.

It would be great if you could bring involuntary manslaughter charges against people who refuse to get vaccinated without a valid medical reason and then make others deathly ill.

Sadly, it would just be way too hard to prove any individual case.

We really ought to make people who refuse vaccinations without cause sign waivers that acknowledge liability and obligate them to positively identify themselves to the community as the potential biological threat they are and also remain a minimum distance from schools, playgrounds, nursing homes, medical offices, hospitals and other areas where immune-compromised individuals could be.


I'm in agreement with this.  I had made the exact statement above (if you don't vaccinate you are indirectly responsible for the death of babies) to my sister (whose is kind of an anti-vaxxer and whose son is autistic) and she said "that's just ridiculous".  I said no, it's statistics.

We need a vaccine against anti-vaxxers.
2013-12-05 01:05:22 PM  
3 votes:

ladodger34: My friend's sister is an RN and an anti-vaxxer


Your friend's sister deserves to lose her RN license.
2013-12-05 12:59:09 PM  
3 votes:

JacobDavidWatson: She's just talking about the HPV vaccine, not all vaccines.. I didn't really read the article thnough.  HPV... most chicks will have it one day, and at worst it causes cancer when we are old.


hmm, guess 25 is old when i had surgery to remove the pre-cancerous cells.
2013-12-05 12:38:47 PM  
3 votes:

exvaxman: My daughter was killed by the pertussis vaccine. Going through the VAERS act as we had to do, it took years due to the political issues to get a settlement. The most obvious was "we have not heard a recent health issue" from the government. The reply of our lawyer (who helped write the VAERS act) stripped the government lawyer of her ability to be a lawyer ever again. Something like he had sent a death certificate and two years later she requested a status update.

My kid has everything but the pertussis vaccine right now.


I'm sorry that happened, but I don't for a second believe that it was the vaccine. It seems more likely blaming the vaccine is a story you tell yourself to create an illusion of control: 'it wasn't a random tragedy, it was that evil vaccine.' I'm not buying it, and neither should anyone else. Sorry for your loss.
2013-12-05 12:37:11 PM  
3 votes:

exvaxman: My daughter was killed by the pertussis vaccine. Going through the VAERS act as we had to do, it took years due to the political issues to get a settlement. The most obvious was "we have not heard a recent health issue" from the government. The reply of our lawyer (who helped write the VAERS act) stripped the government lawyer of her ability to be a lawyer ever again. Something like he had sent a death certificate and two years later she requested a status update.

My kid has everything but the pertussis vaccine right now.


Sorry to hear of your loss.  I think it speaks volumes for you that you didn't just suddenly abandon vaccinations entirely.  You made the correct choice.  Not an easy one in your case.
2013-12-05 12:32:37 PM  
3 votes:

Ex-Texan: Let their kids contract diseases easily prevented by vaccines, then place the burden of care on the parents.. Teh Bible is not an approved method of treatment.


The problem with that approach is that vaccines don't often immunize everyone who gets them, but they prevent the spread of disease by ensuring enough people are immune that infected people rarely come into contact with people they can infect. Having a bunch of unvaccinated people milling around wrecks this effect and puts everyone who either didn't become immune after vaccination or could not be immunized for various reasons at risk.

TL;DR: Letting them not vaccinate their kids puts bystanders at risk and damages the efficiency of the vaccination program.
2013-12-05 12:21:07 PM  
3 votes:
Let their kids contract diseases easily prevented by vaccines, then place the burden of care on the parents.. Teh Bible is not an approved method of treatment.
2013-12-05 08:57:50 PM  
2 votes:

tlars699: What? So none of the four shots they gave my eldest kid work at all? Well, that's just fantastic.


Despite the fact you didn't see them, he still had symptoms of a foreign antigen being introduced into his body. You're being pedantic for no reason at this point, as I HIGHLY believe you know what I was talking about when I said that.

tlars699: He is not against vaccinations. He is for holding the scientific community accountable for the science it conducts, and ensure that the results are quality ones. Hence, the VAERS act coming into being int he first place.


No, what he is doing is engaging in a well known tactic of Anti-vaccine concern trolling. The fact he cannot cite a VAERS case number, despite the fact it would literally be in the header of every court document from the NVICP hearings is pretty telling of this - as it would be very easy to bring up the anonymized details of the case with that number  To bring a case before the NVICP Court, there must be a VAERS report filed.

tlars699:
His other kid isn't vaccinated against pertussis(only, mind you), as his previous one died, true; it could be 1:1,000,000 only risk, or it could be that his family's risk is slightly elevated than average, due to some genetic anomaly/allergy for this particular shot.

And apparently, you're doing so as well.

Hannah Polling didn't have an adverse effect which harmed her, for example. She had an undiagnosed, underlying mitochondrial disorder and a concurrent infection going on at the time. It wasn't the vaccine which caused her injury directly, rather it raised her fever above the one she currently had (a contraindication to the vaccine administration in the first place). 

So yes. I am questioning his story, especially since he is shirking from us when we asked for any citations or evidence otherwise.

tlars699: You should question if a vaccine does or does not have small risk, and ensure that the results in either case are verified by an independent secondary, and third party.


TDaP, HPV, and others have a wealth of evidence available on their effectiveness and safety.

You're not being pro-safe vaccine. You're a thinly veiled anti-vaccine concern troll, and you're using another well known tactic to try to hide it.
2013-12-05 06:07:23 PM  
2 votes:

exvaxman: I cannot give you the number, but it was started in the Bush 1 and before Clinton 1. The lawyer we had was the author of the VAERS act.


No offense dude, but if you were telling the truth, I find it VERY HARD to believe that you don't have any case materials on this with the VAERS report number - since a VAERS report is required to file a claim in the NVICP, it would be referenced on any case material - or can't link to any information other than random news outlets named.

Dude, if you're concern trolling here, that's a pretty slimy thing to do. If you're telling the truth, I'm sorry for you daughter being the 1:1,000,000 that it happened to, but we're being jerks because the way you're presenting what happened is the exact same tactic as the Anti-vaccine groups use to silence their critics.
2013-12-05 04:30:19 PM  
2 votes:

kiwimoogle84: I shouldn't have come in here and run my mouth.


No, no one is saying that. We're actually happy you did, because this is the way people who have been mislead by the anti-vaccine folks learn just what slimeballs they've been listening to. If we sound harsh, it's because we're used to dealing with anti-vax concern trolls and personal attacks from Age of Autism/Anti-Vax cronies.

Something to understand is that many people in the anti-vaxx movement are very charismatic and influential on pop-culture level. They're much more attractive to listen to, and they sound much more down to earth and "connectable" to you than some scientists at a University who developed a vaccine.

If you really want to critically examine how valid their arguments are, keep in mind that 99.95% of their arguments against vaccines rely on a conspiracy theory that stretches the highest levels of industry and government, despite there being no concrete proof of it they can point to.
2013-12-05 04:21:25 PM  
2 votes:

kiwimoogle84: I've read many MANY studies on it, here's just one reference-

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/16/hpv-vac c ine-effectiveness.aspx


That's an alternative medicine, antivax-leaning site that has a pretty obvious angle. I'd suggest either linking directly to research or linking to more neutral med websites.

I looked at the studies and links they referenced (well, the PubMed study is behind a paywall, so I can't pass judgment on that one way or the other beyond its abstract).

Stuff that's true:
- The FDA/Merck efficacy study does indeed note that it's possible for Gardasil to exacerbate abnormal cervical cell growth in women who are seropositive for the virus types addressed by the vaccine; that's one of the reasons why OB/GYNs prefer that you get a Pap smear before you get this vaccine. It remains demonstrably effective if you are seronegative when vaccinated, which is true for a huge number of people.
- It's true that Gardasil affects only four of the most prevalent, dangerous types of HPV, and that there are plenty of other serotypes. We haven't come up with vaccines for those yet.
- It's true that the body is capable, sometimes, of resolving HPV infections on its own.

Stuff that's bullshiat:
- No mention of the possible existence of confounding factors for the study group that was seropositive for vaccine-affected HPV types; the study talks about this
- Caterwauling about "sudden death" and "deaths after taking Gardasil"... which are either totally uncited or cited out of context. The studies explicitly talk about deaths having been due to other identifiable causes. The guy also cites VAERS reports of adverse events - reports, not verified cases or paid restitution. Anybody can make a report to VAERS about anything; that data cannot be used to draw meaningful medical conclusions.
- Did they seriously cite WorldNetDaily? lulz
- The compensation data lacks all proportionality. A few dozen to a few hundred verified adverse events + a number of deaths I can count on my fingers are pretty normal for a vaccine that's been administered to MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

Yuuuuup I'm callin' shenanigans.
2013-12-05 04:07:30 PM  
2 votes:

kiwimoogle84: http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2012/bcr-2012-006879.abstract


You cannot base your beliefs on an N=1 case study which presents something that, in all likelihood, had nothing to do with HPV vaccination in the first place. That's not a scientific study you're reading, but a write up by a physician on a patient they have treated.

The HPV Vaccine is safe, and effective.
2013-12-05 03:52:25 PM  
2 votes:

hardinparamedic: ladodger34: My friend's sister is an RN and an anti-vaxxer

Your friend's sister deserves to lose her RN license.


^^^this so much

I've recently lost a ton of nurse "friends" who, as group decided (with the help of a bunch of pink wine,) that they were all going to crusade for the anti-vax crowd in support of one of their colleagues whose son "caught Autism from his shots." Since they provide direct patient care to children, I felt obligated to report their profoundly dangerous opinion to their Director of Nursing, who called them all in for an educational afternoon, off the clock.

/rounds are pretty tense now

//eff 'em all
2013-12-05 03:43:59 PM  
2 votes:

tlars699: I had a concern about the MMR shot- I had this vaccine given to my kids, by itself, within appropriate time-range, so that if something were to happen autism-wise, I could show that the shot would be in part responsible.


This makes zero sense.  During the same time frame your child also, ate, pooped, breathed, cried, smiled, saw the color red, wore clothes, was naked, interacted with mommy, interacted with daddy etc etc etc, would all of those things have also been partly responsible if you child was diagnosed with autism?
2013-12-05 03:33:47 PM  
2 votes:

kiwimoogle84: But the HPV vaccine is utter bogus nonsense. It doesn't prevent anything and HAS been linked to problems. Same reason I don't get the flu shot- there's just no point.


Do you care to expand on what you're claiming here? Especially since it goes against scientific consensus.
2013-12-05 03:32:48 PM  
2 votes:

Pitabred: Not entirely sure why you think they should be spread out? Do you realize how many things you body comes into contact with daily, how many thousands of critters? A few more won't matter when your body sees over a thousand new antigens a day


Simple exercise: touch your finger to your keyboard.

Congratulation. You've just touched more antigenic compounds than are contained in a vaccine.

Eat a sandwich.

Congratulations, you've just internalized more antigenic compounds than a vaccine contains.

"Spreading vaccines out" and "vaccine overload" are pseudoscientific hack concepts.

Rik01: However, they're judged on their ability to prevent or cure an illness, usually figuring that if for every 100,000 people that are protected and one has an adverse reaction -- then the risk is acceptable.


The risk is about 1:1,000,000 in the general population of a potentially lethal adverse reaction, such as anaphylaxis. The link between vaccination and GBS is looking less and less like the case.

Rik01: You can't condemn thousands of folks to a slow death just because your single kid took the medication and had a lasting side effect.


Hannah Poling is the person that the anti-vaxxers mainly claim as the proof of their idiocy. Despite the fact that she had an underlying, previously undiagnosed mitochondrial disorder that was exacerbated by a previously existing Otitis media and fever.
2013-12-05 03:18:38 PM  
2 votes:

Clemkadidlefark: Vaccines are harmless


Oh shut up, you cock.

First off, you CAN sue pharmaceutical manufacturers in civil court for vaccine-related injury claims. However, the burden of proof is FAR LESS in the vaccine court than it is in a civil court setting, which adheres to standard legal definitions of scientific evidence. In addition, the vaccine court pays out injury claims for life, not a lump monetary sum, and includes remuneration for cost of treatments down the road.

Secondly, in the history of the vaccine court's existence, they have paid out less than a thousand times even with that decreased standard of evidence, for legitimate vaccine injuries. No case brought before them of a claim of "autism" from a vaccine has ever held up to scientific or medical scrutiny. Strangely, these people have NOT brought their claims to a civil court, which should leave you asking "Why?", especially when there is MAJOR MONEY backing the anti-vaccine movement.

Third, no one has ever said vaccines are harmless - except for you. Vaccines DO have risks, which are minuscule in most people. Those risks are VERY MUCH LESS than the risk of disability or death from vaccine preventable disease.
2013-12-05 02:41:28 PM  
2 votes:

exvaxman: My daughter was killed by the pertussis vaccine. Going through the VAERS act as we had to do, it took years due to the political issues to get a settlement. The most obvious was "we have not heard a recent health issue" from the government. The reply of our lawyer (who helped write the VAERS act) stripped the government lawyer of her ability to be a lawyer ever again. Something like he had sent a death certificate and two years later she requested a status update.

My kid has everything but the pertussis vaccine right now.


While I sympathize with your loss, it was people  not vaccinating their children that gave my son pertussis. He had mild jaundice when he was born so, after he was released from the hospital, we took him to his pediatrician for a followup. He was 7 weeks old, one week too soon for the vaccination. One of the families in the waiting room had a kid with a cough which turned out to be pertussis. Our pediatrician told us that the mother was anti-vax because of some story she saw on a talk show (Donahue or Gerlado at the time). As a result my son got sick.

He was hospitalized for two weeks. He'd cough until his throat was raw, he'd stop breathing until he turned blue, he became dehydrated and had to be put on an IV. My wife and I slept in his hospital room, worried sick. My grandmother was terrified because her first child had died from whooping cough.

Even after he was released we had to keep him on a portable apnea monitor for an additional month just in case. He developed asthma and is prone to bronchitis because of what the disease did to his lungs.

While some small percentage of the population might have a negative reaction to a vaccine (hell, every medication runs at least a small risk) that is no reason to put the rest of us at risk.
2013-12-05 02:38:29 PM  
2 votes:

IRQ12: skozlaw: IRQ12: chairmenmeow47: IRQ12: Who heard of HPV before the vaccination came out?

you sound male

you sound Merk

[community.us.playstation.com image 400x300]

When it comes to the pharmaceutical companies and their reps and lobby you bet your ass.  Naw, you all well informed people are right, this extremely expensive vaccine found its way into legislation across america because HPV was an epidemic.  I forgot about the nightly news reports about it.

I'm not saying it's not effective or some gubberment conspiracy, it's just big pharm working its magic.


I'm pretty sure there's more money to be made by charging people tens of thousands of dollars to treat cancer, instead of charging them a few bucks for a shot.
2013-12-05 02:09:31 PM  
2 votes:

meintx2001: jrodr018: meintx2001: Stop with the herd immunity crap.  If you don't take the vaccine for what ever reason, don't force others to take it to protect you.  It should be their decision.  As for all of the "vaccines are safe, you're just stupid" crowd, every medication given in the US is deemed safe.  But then how many are recalled later when it is determined that they aren't safe?  And how many people suffer and die during that process?

Better yet, if you can't take the vaccine stay away from everyone else.

I cannot for the life of me remember a single medication, especially a vaccine, that has been determined as "safe". All medications have risked associated with them (however infinitesimal), but I am sure you knew that.

Yes, Thank you.  What I was referring to was that while ALL meds in the US pass FDA and are CONSIDERED safe, they are not always.  And yes, I know there are risks.  There are risks to everything.  That was directed at the people that claim that vaccines are not dangerous or deadly.  For some they may be dangerous or deadly.  So if someone doesn't want to take that risk they should not be forced to.


Most people don't claim that vaccines have no potential harmful side effects.  However, all sane, rational people agree that the benefits of vaccines vastly outweigh the potential negatives.  You want to benefit from herd immunity but not take the (incredibly small) risk yourself.  Go live in a cave somewhere.
2013-12-05 01:21:11 PM  
2 votes:

jrodr018: meintx2001: Stop with the herd immunity crap.  If you don't take the vaccine for what ever reason, don't force others to take it to protect you.  It should be their decision.  As for all of the "vaccines are safe, you're just stupid" crowd, every medication given in the US is deemed safe.  But then how many are recalled later when it is determined that they aren't safe?  And how many people suffer and die during that process?

Better yet, if you can't take the vaccine stay away from everyone else.

I cannot for the life of me remember a single medication, especially a vaccine, that has been determined as "safe". All medications have risked associated with them (however infinitesimal), but I am sure you knew that.


Anyone who argues against vaccines is a complete idiot.  If they are shown to cause autism, which is a lie, we are still better off with vaccines and the disease immunity they bring.  If they are shown to cause peanut allergies, and that sounds like bullshiat too, we are still better off with vaccines and the disease immunity they bring.  If there truly is some kind of connection found between vaccines and these sorts of side effects, then we should absolutely come up with a vaccine that doesn't do this.  Until then, get your vaccines on the recommended schedule and don't be a twat.

Texas measles outbreak

And the problem with the "I do what I want!" argument, is that the problem with herd immunity or lack thereof, sometimes results in the deaths of others.

Texas is also currently dealing with another wave of pertussis (whooping cough) outbreaks.  The problem with this is they can't vaccinate the babies until they are two months old, and they are also the most likely to die from it.

"From 2000-2012, a total of 43 deaths were attributed to pertussis in Texas.  Most of the deaths occurred in infants under 1 year of age--most in children too young to be vaccinated. In 2013, two deaths have been reported thus far. Both of the deaths occurred in children too young to be vaccinated. "

So, if you refuse to vaccinate yourself or your kid against pertussis, congratulations, you're indirectly responsible for the death of infants.
2013-12-05 01:16:05 PM  
2 votes:

scubamage: Really? I hadn't heard that. HPV in men is weird because there is no actual test to determine if it is present, unless you have physical lesions (which of course only appear in strains which don't cause cancer, so that's a non-starter).


Men can be carriers of HPV just as women can.  And in addition to infections of the genitals, people can contract HPV through oral sex, which could lead to throat or mouth cancer.

If the wife and I ever have kids, girls or not, they will be getting the HPV vaccine.
2013-12-05 01:05:19 PM  
2 votes:

JacobDavidWatson: She's just talking about the HPV vaccine, not all vaccines.. I didn't really read the article thnough.  HPV... most chicks will have it one day, and at worst it causes cancer when we are old.  Not talking this vaccine won't have dire Darwinian consequences im afraid..

This vaccine is only for chicks right?


They've started approving the vaccine for boys, although it's not taken as widely.  The strains of HPV in the vaccine have been connected with oral, penile, and anal cancers, so it's not a terrible idea for boys to be vaccinated as well for their own sake, and not just because they can transmit the virus.

The vaccine also protects against the strains that cause genital warts. I think we can all agree that fewer genital warts in the world is a good thing.
2013-12-05 12:57:41 PM  
2 votes:

JacobDavidWatson: She's just talking about the HPV vaccine, not all vaccines.. I didn't really read the article thnough.  HPV... most chicks will have it one day, and at worst it causes cancer when we are old.  Not talking this vaccine won't have dire Darwinian consequences im afraid..

This vaccine is only for chicks right?


HPV affects men also, and there are increasing calls for the vaccine to be administered and promoted for both sexes.
2013-12-05 12:50:27 PM  
2 votes:
My friend's sister is an RN and an anti-vaxxer (she married an idiot and she listens to him). She was ranting and raving on FB the other day that about how hospitals treat nurses that don't get the flu vaccine and how she was lucky that her hospital only made her wear a mask.

I told her brother (my closest and bestest friend) that I really appreciated her FB rant. If my 2 youngest ever happen to visit a hospital and they are treated with a nurse in a mask, I will respectfully ask for another. I have to assume that a nurse in a mask is an anti-vaxxer and I can't have him/her around my kids with asthma.

//rant hit home because we spent the night in the ER with baby girl (9 mo. old) a week or two before it was posted.
///friend's sister is farking hot. She could have her choice of men, but she married her idiot husband.
2013-12-05 12:49:10 PM  
2 votes:

Rapmaster2000: T.rex: Egoy3k: More like she opened her wallet and pandered.  Not really the same thing, just as shiatty to be sure, but not the same.

Are you kidding.... There's no money to be had to be anti-Big Pharma.... You got that backwards.

She's cutting right into their MASSIVE vaccine profits.  Follow the money and you will see.  Just study it out.


I have never understood this line of thought.

If big medicine profits are the primary motivation, wouldn't they want to eliminate vaccines?

I'm not an expert on the financials of the health care industry, but I'd be willing to bet there's more profit in keeping someone in an iron lung for the rest of their lives than in selling them a few vaccines.
2013-12-05 12:48:22 PM  
2 votes:
Went thru my first of 35 radiation treatments today due to hpv16.  Chemo starts Monday, F*ck this vapid twat.
2013-12-05 12:30:39 PM  
2 votes:

devildog123: Ex-Texan: Let their kids contract diseases easily prevented by vaccines, then place the burden of care on the parents.. Teh Bible is not an approved method of treatment.

Plenty of the anti-vaccers aren't bible thumpers.  They're leftist granola eaters who hate all the "preservatives" because they'll give little Jayden or Moonbeam teh autism.  Trying to make this a left/right issue is bullshiat.  The crazies are on both sides.


It's that dunning effect. People with middling levels of knowledge think that they know better than the experts. That and a misguided attempt to stick it to the "man".
2013-12-05 12:21:25 PM  
2 votes:
I'm fine with not vaccinating your kids, provided there are some caveats.

If they choose not to vaccinate theirr kid against something, the doctor will immediately infect the parents with it. In Katie Couric's case, a shot of HPV right in the cervix. But this would hold true for just about any preventable disease. Don't want to vaccinate your kid against polio? Well, now that I've injected you with polio, have you changed your mind?
2013-12-05 12:17:01 PM  
2 votes:
Well, she has certainly lost all of the zero respect I had for her before.
2013-12-05 12:16:48 PM  
2 votes:

hardinparamedic: Nooooooooooooooo!

You were the chosen one! You were supposed to bring balance to the morning news!


She was added jiggle in her time.
time's up.
2013-12-06 11:43:55 AM  
1 votes:
I just found and read through this thread.  As a survivor of throat (vocal cord) cancer, and a member of SPOHNC (Support for People with Oral Head and Neck Cancer), I am very attuned to this topic.

According to the Winship Cancer Institute at Emory of Atlanta says that HPV-related throat cancer is at near epidemic levels and can affect pretty much anyone.  As scut207 has said, treatment is a biatch.  According to Winship, if there is anything remotely possitive here, it's that this form of cancer has a nearly 100% survival rate post treatment.  Still, if the vaccine can prevent this, I'll take it compared to radiation/Chemo treatments.

Thanks for your words scut207: Here's hoping for a full recovery.
2013-12-05 11:54:08 PM  
1 votes:

exvaxman: That due to the crap done to move the excess money from the vaccine act that screwed anyone trying to claim during the Clinton years to the general fund.....


Awarded Claims to the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program were at their peak during Clinton's Presidency and actually grew under them, and were not superseded until the Obama Administration in 2010.
2013-12-05 11:33:41 PM  
1 votes:

Sum Dum Gai: I think you've miscounted - VAERS hasn't been around for 24 years; the oldest cases were just over 23 years ago.


This is one of the reasons I've been asking him to provide any evidence of what he's saying. I'm not intentionally trying to  be an asshole to someone who has ostensibly lost a child to an illness. I've just seen too many cases of anti-vaxx trolls openly lying about people harmed or killed by these massive adverse events that "they" don't want you to know about. Especially when someone claims to have been in the national spotlight.

Sum Dum Gai: There are always possible consequences, regardless of the choice.  The reason to vaccinate is because the odds of serious health problems and death are higher if you don't vaccinate.  The number of deaths caused by vaccines is much, much smaller than the number of deaths prevented by vaccines.

You can't eliminate the risk of death, only do your best to minimize it.


media.tumblr.com
2013-12-05 11:12:39 PM  
1 votes:

exvaxman: The VAERS case is over 24 years old at this point.


I think you've miscounted - VAERS hasn't been around for 24 years; the oldest cases were just over 23 years ago.

Vaccinate but realize there are consequences.

There are always possible consequences, regardless of the choice.  The reason to vaccinate is because the odds of serious health problems and death are higher if you don't vaccinate.  The number of deaths caused by vaccines is much, much smaller than the number of deaths prevented by vaccines.

You can't eliminate the risk of death, only do your best to minimize it.
2013-12-05 11:04:15 PM  
1 votes:

tlars699: First link: Blog


The first link is Doctor David Gorski, who blogs under the name of Orac, and is one of the most renown experts on the Anti-vaccination movement today. Ironically enough, he also cites scientific references for each of his claims.

tlars699: Second link: Blog posing as research


Skeptical blogger who, again, cites what he claims.

tlars699: Third link: BlogFourth link: BlogFifth link: Blog.....


Again, skeptical bloggers who cite their scientific claims.

tlars699: Who's trolling who, now?


You, again, would be obvious to most people on here. You're continuing to concern troll.

tlars699: Aaand, you're denouncing the governmental structure put into place to verify the safety of vaccines, and hold them accountable for maximizing benefits while minimizing risk: VAERS, because bad scientists, whom I, at least, would like to be held accountable for spreading misinformation, conducted bad science, to get favorable results for themselves? ....


people.virginia.edu

Or, in this case, something I never said. 

Would you like to cite any cases of "bad scientists manipulating information and bad science to get favorable results for themselves" when it comes to vaccination? Because it seems like, in this case, that the only people doing that are anti-vaxxers. See Mark and David Geier, Mercola, Wakefield et all.

And I'm criticizing the system for not screening entries, and allowing people to have unmitigated access into the system, including the ability to perform "creative edits" to VAERS entries to better support their litigation down the road.

tlars699: So my argument concerning that any branch of science(biology/medicine/chemistry,etc) should be checked, and rechecked, and checked another time 5 years from now for good measure, completely bypassed you, huh?


No, your argument reeks of anti-vaccine concern trolling, "I'm not anti-vaccine, BUT it sure is fishy....." Especially how you white knight someone who posted a very dubious story from the very start.

tlars699: You're asking someone who probably has mounds of paperwork from years ago about this, to hunt for a case number, when his lawyer probably has all of that info?


Yes. Yes I am. I'm asking someone who has supposedly been through so much that he's made it into multiple national news sources to provide something that would be at the header of any case document referring to his family's case. Because, to put it quite frank, making up fake victims is a M.O. of the Anti-vaccination movement.

So when someone is saying something that can hurt people and public health by scaring people away from being vaccinated from a disease which is making a huge comeback in the US because of anti-vaxxers, YES. Yes, I am asking for proof. And that's the only responsible thing to do.

tlars699: 1. Everyone should get the vaccines they are able to.


Of course.

tlars699: .2. Vaccines should be regularly, and routinely checked for possible adverse effects.(which I'm sure they are)


Then why are you concern trolling over something that is done extensively?

tlars699: )3. Results should be verified ad infinitum, over time.4. Science should evolve, and Society should be involved in that evolution, even if it is by questioning results


Questioning results and accepting overwhelming evidence of those results is quite different than questioning those results and using them in a confirmation bias thanks to anecdotal fear mongering.

You're doing quite well at doing the latter.

tlars699: 5. Every question of this nature should be considered with the utmost care and responsibility.6. Science is not infallible, and should learn from its mistakes, but lately has not been really good on this part.


No one has questioned this. But what we have questioned is you providing a citation of number 6 when it comes to vaccination. What you are engaging in is "Vindication of all Quacks".

tlars699: 7.fark you, and your stance on being black or white. That is not how the world works.


EABOD, dude. I never said anything was black and white. What I did say was that one anecdotal story with very little information does not give a good reason for not vaccinating. Because that makes me an asshole, or something, you decided to fire off both barrels.

tlars699: .8. I hope you've put me on ignore, or you've exposed yourself for the true troll you are.


You delicate cupcake. Because I've refuted what you've said, does not make me a troll. It makes you pretty damn shiatty at presenting evidence of your claims of impropriety among vaccine manufacturers, the Government, the medical community, and administrators in the United States when it comes to vaccines. It also makes you look like a pedantic, strawman creating ass.

I'm not trolling you. I truly believe you're an anti-vaxx concern troll based on the way you've presented yourself in this thread, and the way you have behaved when challenged (like a five year old child.)

tlars699: 9. Your blogs suck.


The fact that "my blogs" are well known as medical and skeptical sources of reliable information, as well as cite their own scientific studies as rationale for their statements makes them far better evidence than anything you've presented in this thread. And the fact that they are experts on the anti-vaccine movement makes your attacks against them all the more confirming that you're an anti-vax troll.

Again. I will ask you.  I will even embiggen it because you seem to have a learning disability. You have made the claim of extensive impropriety in the science behind several vaccines, as well as a coverup between those manufacturers, the Government, and the medical community to keep "vaccine injured" children a secret. Please present any evidence of such for consideration. Otherwise, STFU and stop whining about how people are "trolling you" because they demand you back up your statements.

exvaxman:
he VAERS case is over 24 years old at this point. I am not pulling out some old paperwork for an asshole who refuses to believe a story told multiple times on Fark. Consume feces and expire. May you never hold a child having a seizure the eventually leads to her heart giving out.

Yeah, it's not like the anti-vax movement would ever make things up. How dare I be skeptical of something that sounds exactly like that.

But yeah. Bad things on me and all for asking you to back up your claim which seems to be rather dubious from the Boobies. May my family suffer and I die a horrible death because of it. :)

I'll apologize to you, profusely, if you can give ANY evidence of your claim - even the articles you claim made it into the national news featuring you and supporting your story.

And I've watched a child die from pertussis despite the best efforts of one of the most advanced hospitals in the United States. So EABOD, dude.
2013-12-05 09:51:59 PM  
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: tlars699: I would also like to note that at the time, I was documenting everything regarding their behavior in a journal to be shared/updated between their father and I, so he could have an accurate picture on how they were developing.

After this stage(shots had been taken for over 6 months), and once it became clear that their father was misinforming me via said journal, we stopped doing that altogether. :\

Your entire premise was flawed, as it is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacious assumption without any evidence supporting.

To be quite frank, studies have not only found that vaccines did not worsen the symptoms of autism, but that the symptoms were present as early as three months of life, before six month and one year vaccinations were given.


And this is why the research being done on early autism diagnosis is so exciting. You're obviously way better informed on it than I am- I just know that anything they learn about it is going to improve the lives of those affected by it- so yay.
2013-12-05 09:03:59 PM  
1 votes:

tlars699: He is not against vaccinations. He is for holding the scientific community accountable for the science it conducts, and ensure that the results are quality ones. Hence, the VAERS act coming into being int he first place.


FURTHERMORE.

The VAERS system is a poor way to conduct science in the first place, or to even track actual vaccine adverse reactions.

The evidence of this:

Vaccines caused the death of a person by blunt force trauma to the head.
A researcher was turned into the incredible hulk by a vaccine.

Or the fact that anti-vaccination and "pro-safe vaccine" advocates have been caught "creatively editing" and accessing personal, HIPAA-protected data in the VAERS database to support legal proceedings for their clients.
2013-12-05 08:58:08 PM  
1 votes:

IRQ12: Who heard of HPV before the vaccination came out?


HPV has been known about since at least the 70s. The vaccinations came out in the early 2000s, iirc.

Care to try again?
2013-12-05 06:10:56 PM  
1 votes:

meintx2001: Better yet, if you can't take the vaccine stay away from everyone else.


THis is very practical, and a fair solution for people who, through no fault of their own, are too immunocompromised for vaccines. They must pay with social isolation!
/I hope your sarcasm detector is working
2013-12-05 06:08:26 PM  
1 votes:

Skirl Hutsenreiter: I just don't think it's an awesome idea to pile on multiple things that can each individually cause fever and flu-y symptoms at the same time.


The fever and flu symptoms are the outwards, systemic manifestations of your body producing an active immune reaction against the inoculation. Which is what it is supposed to do. You will never have any vaccine that works without these symptoms.
2013-12-05 04:51:34 PM  
1 votes:

tlars699: Do autistic subjects have a different density than non autistic subjects?


There is growing evidence that Autism is related to a structural defect in pre-frontal cortex neuronal density and number.

if that were the case, in fact, it would completely invalidate any claims about vaccinations and autism.
2013-12-05 04:49:11 PM  
1 votes:

exvaxman: My daughter was given the pertussis vaccine and had a seizure within an hour. She was completely normal before this. The government (you cannot sue any vaccine maker) agreed that she was killed by the vaccine after several years.


If your story is true, it's factually incorrect. You are quite able to sue vaccine makers in open civil court. And were these seizures "febrile", by any chance? Which are a known side effect?

And she was "killed by the vaccine"? What is your VAERS case number?

exvaxman: Their goal was the real intention of the VAERS act for a quick resolution of issues.


VAERS was developed before, in 1986. And the reason it was implemented was because pharmaceutical manufacturers were getting out of the vaccine business because they were losing too much money defending in lawsuits.
2013-12-05 04:36:31 PM  
1 votes:

kiwimoogle84: tlars699: Ctrl-Alt-Del: kiwimoogle84: http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2012/bcr-2012-006879.abstract

Well, that's actually a case report, not a study, but at least it's legit - thanks for taking a bit of time to find it.

FTFS: " Premature ovarian failure was then notified as a possible adverse event following this vaccination."

So you have one single data point where a serious medical condition might have been a "possible adverse event following this vaccination"

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

Just because it's noted as being a possibility, and not specifically a cause via the case study(given not enough data to draw that conclusion, per se), it does not mean that the results will not be found to be the same, or that it won't lead to being discovered as the cause, given a proper course of study.

Reformat: Just because it's a case study, does not mean her conclusions are necessarily wrong. She needs more data. Correlation does not mean Causation, but it doesn't rule Causation out, either.

Cherry Picking, yes.
Post Hoc ergo propter hoc, not so much... yet.

Well I'm just gonna eke myself out of this thread, because I'm pretty certain I'm wrong and I feel stupid, I just heard disastrous things from folks that I KNOW to be reasonable. And I am about as far from crunchy organic blah blah mom as you can get. So I'll do more reading once it actually applies to my life- I shouldn't have come in here and run my mouth.

 
Dude, that is awesome. Very rarely you see somebody willing to read a bit more to reconsider their position, especially when it comes to vaccinations. The REAL anti-vaxxers usually will completely retreat from the thread when shown data, or accuse everybody of being shills for Big Pharma. You are awesome.
2013-12-05 04:34:15 PM  
1 votes:

kiwimoogle84: Well I'm just gonna eke myself out of this thread, because I'm pretty certain I'm wrong and I feel stupid, I just heard disastrous things from folks that I KNOW to be reasonable. And I am about as far from crunchy organic blah blah mom as you can get. So I'll do more reading once it actually applies to my life- I shouldn't have come in here and run my mouth.


FWIW, I don't think you're a horrible terrible no-good very bad person or anything, just that you were misled. Happens. :)
2013-12-05 04:34:09 PM  
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: kiwimoogle84: I shouldn't have come in here and run my mouth.

No, no one is saying that. We're actually happy you did, because this is the way people who have been mislead by the anti-vaccine folks learn just what slimeballs they've been listening to. If we sound harsh, it's because we're used to dealing with anti-vax concern trolls and personal attacks from Age of Autism/Anti-Vax cronies.

Something to understand is that many people in the anti-vaxx movement are very charismatic and influential on pop-culture level. They're much more attractive to listen to, and they sound much more down to earth and "connectable" to you than some scientists at a University who developed a vaccine.

If you really want to critically examine how valid their arguments are, keep in mind that 99.95% of their arguments against vaccines rely on a conspiracy theory that stretches the highest levels of industry and government, despite there being no concrete proof of it they can point to.


I guess it's like I tell a young pregnant friend of mine- too much information can be a bad thing. She's all concerned about harmful ultrasounds, and how crying causes PTSD in infants, and how eating anything with sugar will kill the baby, etc etc... And then links articles from these hippy midwife mom blogs who breastfeed until junior high or some crap. It just makes me insane.

Honestly I have found other articles and studies I just can't locate them at the moment. But again, I'll read more into it.
2013-12-05 04:26:30 PM  
1 votes:

tlars699: Ctrl-Alt-Del: kiwimoogle84: http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2012/bcr-2012-006879.abstract

Well, that's actually a case report, not a study, but at least it's legit - thanks for taking a bit of time to find it.

FTFS: " Premature ovarian failure was then notified as a possible adverse event following this vaccination."

So you have one single data point where a serious medical condition might have been a "possible adverse event following this vaccination"

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

Just because it's noted as being a possibility, and not specifically a cause via the case study(given not enough data to draw that conclusion, per se), it does not mean that the results will not be found to be the same, or that it won't lead to being discovered as the cause, given a proper course of study.

Reformat: Just because it's a case study, does not mean her conclusions are necessarily wrong. She needs more data. Correlation does not mean Causation, but it doesn't rule Causation out, either.

Cherry Picking, yes.
Post Hoc ergo propter hoc, not so much... yet.


Well I'm just gonna eke myself out of this thread, because I'm pretty certain I'm wrong and I feel stupid, I just heard disastrous things from folks that I KNOW to be reasonable. And I am about as far from crunchy organic blah blah mom as you can get. So I'll do more reading once it actually applies to my life- I shouldn't have come in here and run my mouth.
2013-12-05 04:13:42 PM  
1 votes:

kiwimoogle84: Ctrl-Alt-Del: kiwimoogle84: jrodr018: Ctrl-Alt-Del: kiwimoogle84: I've read many MANY studies on it, here's just one reference-

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/16/hpv-va cc ine-effectiveness.aspx

That's not a study, that's an article written by a practitioner of "alternative medicine" - anti-vaxxer and fraudulent vitamin huckster Joseph Mercola

 kiwimoogle84: I've read all kinds of stuff that suggest that studies were fraudulently altered

"All kinds of stuff"? Very convincing. I've read "all kinds of stuff" that "suggests" that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. I rather suspect it is on par with the stuff you have read

If you read her quotes and check references she cites, especially her main point, the link of the "reference" says NOTHING even close to her quotes. It is kind of funny.

I have a screaming child in my lap and I haven't slept since Tuesday, I'm sorry I don't have the time or focus to pore through the internet to find the perfect source.

Nobodies asking for a "perfect" source - we're just asking for one that isn't 100% bullcrap, like the Mercola link

http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2012/bcr-2012-006879.abstract


You should read the paper sometime. In particular, because although the authors do not mention it in the abstract, they say in the text of the paper itself, "It is not known whether this event of premature ovarian failure is linked to the quadrivalent HPV vaccine."

Really.
2013-12-05 04:04:39 PM  
1 votes:

kiwimoogle84: http://articles.mercola.


th09.deviantart.net

Mercola is NOT a reliable source of information, on anything, PERIOD. This is a guy who advocated megadosing with Vitamin D, and almost killed himself doing so by his own woo.

kiwimoogle84: Like I said I'm not an anti vaxxer, I just read too much about this vaccine in particular to decide it wasn't for me.


You might not be an anti-vaxxer, but you've been mislead by them.
2013-12-05 03:59:20 PM  
1 votes:

kiwimoogle84: jrodr018: Ctrl-Alt-Del: kiwimoogle84: I've read many MANY studies on it, here's just one reference-

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/16/hpv-va cc ine-effectiveness.aspx

That's not a study, that's an article written by a practitioner of "alternative medicine" - anti-vaxxer and fraudulent vitamin huckster Joseph Mercola

 kiwimoogle84: I've read all kinds of stuff that suggest that studies were fraudulently altered

"All kinds of stuff"? Very convincing. I've read "all kinds of stuff" that "suggests" that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. I rather suspect it is on par with the stuff you have read

If you read her quotes and check references she cites, especially her main point, the link of the "reference" says NOTHING even close to her quotes. It is kind of funny.

I have a screaming child in my lap and I haven't slept since Tuesday, I'm sorry I don't have the time or focus to pore through the internet to find the perfect source.


Nobodies asking for a "perfect" source - we're just asking for one that isn't 100% bullcrap, like the Mercola link
2013-12-05 03:50:58 PM  
1 votes:

kiwimoogle84: hardinparamedic: kiwimoogle84: But the HPV vaccine is utter bogus nonsense. It doesn't prevent anything and HAS been linked to problems. Same reason I don't get the flu shot- there's just no point.

Do you care to expand on what you're claiming here? Especially since it goes against scientific consensus.

I've read many MANY studies on it, here's just one reference-

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/16/hpv-va cc ine-effectiveness.aspx

I've read all kinds of stuff that suggest that studies were fraudulently altered and that the risk of cancers actually increased after getting the shot.

Like I said I'm not an anti vaxxer, I just read too much about this vaccine in particular to decide it wasn't for me.


Mercola is not what we'd call an "authoritative source."
2013-12-05 03:50:10 PM  
1 votes:

kiwimoogle84: I've read many MANY studies on it, here's just one reference-

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/16/hpv-va cc ine-effectiveness.aspx


That's not a study, that's an article written by a practitioner of "alternative medicine" - anti-vaxxer and fraudulent vitamin huckster Joseph Mercola

 

kiwimoogle84: I've read all kinds of stuff that suggest that studies were fraudulently altered


"All kinds of stuff"? Very convincing. I've read "all kinds of stuff" that "suggests" that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. I rather suspect it is on par with the stuff you have read
2013-12-05 03:49:13 PM  
1 votes:

exvaxman: My daughter was killed by the pertussis vaccine. Going through the VAERS act as we had to do, it took years due to the political issues to get a settlement. The most obvious was "we have not heard a recent health issue" from the government. The reply of our lawyer (who helped write the VAERS act) stripped the government lawyer of her ability to be a lawyer ever again. Something like he had sent a death certificate and two years later she requested a status update.

My kid has everything but the pertussis vaccine right now.


You're a known anti-vax troll account and you're not funny.
2013-12-05 03:47:48 PM  
1 votes:

kiwimoogle84: hardinparamedic: kiwimoogle84: But the HPV vaccine is utter bogus nonsense. It doesn't prevent anything and HAS been linked to problems. Same reason I don't get the flu shot- there's just no point.

Do you care to expand on what you're claiming here? Especially since it goes against scientific consensus.

I've read many MANY studies on it, here's just one reference-

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/16/hpv-va cc ine-effectiveness.aspx

I've read all kinds of stuff that suggest that studies were fraudulently altered and that the risk of cancers actually increased after getting the shot.

Like I said I'm not an anti vaxxer, I just read too much about this vaccine in particular to decide it wasn't for me.


I hope this is not the best reference you can cite. When you look at the citations the author has made, they do not match her quotes and most of them link to quack sites. Try PubMed, they have good studies with proper references.
2013-12-05 03:36:41 PM  
1 votes:
Wow I didn't think I needed to explain my comment but here we are...

Katie Couric gets paid (or at the very least continues to be employed) based on how many people watch her show.  If she makes something that a lot of people think is good look scary then more people will tune in to watch her show to make sure that they are kept safe.  I didn't suggest that she was on the take only that the truth is less important that the ratings and 'this might kill you!!' keeps asses on couches more than 'some people think this might kill you but don't worry your Doctor Isn't lieing to you and it's actually quite safe and generally accepted to be a good idea.'
2013-12-05 03:27:07 PM  
1 votes:
Ever read some of these articles, then lean back, pinch your nose right between your eyes where eyeglasses sit and wait for your brain to stop banging around in your head over the abject stupidity displayed?

One of the side effects of our 'new' technology is that the Lunatic Fringe comes out in force and some of them would make excellent political and propaganda writers, being marvelous at distorting the truth, obscuring facts, making it look like throwing common sense out the window is smart and stringing together half truths to make them seem like cold, hard facts.

We have technology real close to that of the fabled 'Star Trek' series, yet we also have folks who plow their cars into trees, people and buildings because they're TEXTING on a VOICE enabled cell phone.

Look, any vaccination is going to have the potential for side effects. Virtually all medications do. However, they're judged on their ability to prevent or cure an illness, usually figuring that if for every 100,000 people that are protected and one has an adverse reaction -- then the risk is acceptable. Especially when you consider that not vaccinating can wind up with 75,000 people catch the disease, of which at least 400 may die, 200 may be permanently affected and the cost of treatment can be 1000 times greater than the cost of vaccination.

Car makers have 'acceptable deaths' built into their operating guides. They know some of the many cars will fail for various reasons and kill folks. So, most pack a certain amount of funds on the side to handle the inevitable lawsuits. However, only if the percentage of injuries and deaths goes beyond their estimates will they recall that particular vehicle.

Something like this goes on with vaccinations. Polio was a very, very nasty disease. Thousands wound up in huge, Iron Lungs which used negative pressure to get them to breath. Thousands remained crippled for life. Kids tended to catch it before adults and many died.

The Polio Vaccine all but wiped it out. Until recently, there have been no new cases of Polio in the US in over 50 years. The ones which have popped up were brought here by immigrants and any US citizen who caught it had not been immunized as a kid.

Typhoid, tetanus, diphtheria, Scarlet Fever, Whooping Cough, Mumps, Measles, Chicken Pox and a host more diseases which were common place when I was a kid, are pretty rare today.

When I worked in medicine, I never saw a cases of Tetanus, AKA, Lockjaw where getting a cut on rusty metal could cause a person's muscles to lock, especially the facial ones. Meaning, they couldn't eat. Well, they could, but only if the Doctors knocked their front teeth out and fed them liquids.

I saw an actual case of Lockjaw on TV a couple of years back. A guy in his 20's had it. He had never been vaccinated against it because his folks didn't believe in that stuff. He recovered, but that $20 vaccination he didn't get cost him probably close to $20,000 in hospital bills.

If a medication works for the majority and helps wipe out a disease, then the minute amount of deaths or disabilities caused by any side effects is acceptable, provided the percentage is very low.

Remember Mumps, the Kid Disease? Painful and annoying but just one of those things. Catch it when you're 22 and it's even more painful. The fun part is that in an adult, it can settle in the testicals, causing pain like you would not believe and sterilizing the affected.

We have a vaccine for that.

Scarlet Fever? Rare these days but those who caught a good case of it could die, be left with heart damage and, in some cases due to the raging fever, brain damage.

If a vaccination popped up that would prevent the worst forms of cancer, but had a potential to cause ADHD or ADD in one out of 2000 recipients, I'd still jump at it. Cancer is debilitating, the treatments harsh, the cure for the worst forms low, most eventually cause pain so bad that patients have to be doped nearly into unconsciousness to get relief and the expense is hideous. Some surgeries can remove the cancer, but leave the person terribly scarred and butchered up.

I'd take the risk with the vaccination.

Even when penicillin, the first wonder drug came out, there were a few folks who reacted badly to it. However, it cured assorted infections in millions that could have become deadly.

No one ranted and raved about how dangerous the stuff was because they were too happy to find a medication that could easily cure almost any bacterial infection. Some of which, the previous cure required a painful surgical lancing. Incidents of gangrene dropped dramatically. Blood poisoning could easily be cured. Post surgical infections could be prevented.

However, none of those unable to take the drug started campaigns to eradicate it. They knew it helped a whole lot more folks than it hurt.

Believe me, I've worked in surgery, the ER and on the floors and I've seen what nasty diseases can do. I've also seen the amount of diseases drop dramatically since vaccinations became common.

Often you need to consider the amount of good that a medication will do verses the bad.

You can't condemn thousands of folks to a slow death just because your single kid took the medication and had a lasting side effect.
2013-12-05 03:24:43 PM  
1 votes:

Skirl Hutsenreiter: spidermilk: T.rex: Egoy3k: More like she opened her wallet and pandered.  Not really the same thing, just as shiatty to be sure, but not the same.

Are you kidding.... There's no money to be had to be anti-Big Pharma.... You got that backwards.

I agree with you BUT I would say about 50% of the age 20-30 mothers I know have voiced their concern about vaccines. And by concern I don't mean that they are reviewing appropriate literature or talking to an immune specialist. I mean they are forwarding quack websites to each other and re-posting that kid who's mother claims he died from the flu vaccine.

If you have an afternoon talk show you probably want these mommies to get interested. It is easier for Katie to come on her show and try to scare them into not vaccinating than it is for her to be an actual journalist and possibly offend (or educate) them.

Luckily, most of the above mentioned 20-30 year old mothers I know don't care enough (apparently) to refuse mandatory vaccines. So, they think that the flu vaccine might kill their child, but they don't actually care enough to fill out some paper work and refuse a vaccine (apparently). I know one chick who works in a hospital and although she firmly believes the flu shot could kill you and always gives you the flu, SHE STILL GETS ONE since she would lose her job otherwise. Clearly, if you really thought this had a reasonable chance of killing you wouldn't you be willing to lose your job?

A good number of pediatricians will fire patients who refuse to vaccinate.  You can always find one who won't, but it takes some extra work beyond signing forms, which is why those doctors do it - they don't want to enable anti-vaxxers.

Now, I do happen to think that getting everything in the world on the same day is a bad idea, and the CDC recommended timelines are actually flexible enough to avoid that, but pediatricians are in the habit of lumping them together because it can be hard to get people to come back in over and over agai ...


Not entirely sure why you think they should be spread out? Do you realize how many things you body comes into contact with daily, how many thousands of critters? A few more won't matter when your body sees over a thousand new antigens a day:  http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/toomany.html
2013-12-05 02:36:25 PM  
1 votes:

IRQ12: skozlaw: IRQ12: chairmenmeow47: IRQ12: Who heard of HPV before the vaccination came out?

you sound male

you sound Merk

[community.us.playstation.com image 400x300]

When it comes to the pharmaceutical companies and their reps and lobby you bet your ass.  Naw, you all well informed people are right, this extremely expensive vaccine found its way into legislation across america because HPV was an epidemic.  I forgot about the nightly news reports about it.

I'm not saying it's not effective or some gubberment conspiracy, it's just big pharm working its magic.


when i announced to about ten of my girlfriends that i had a colposcopy (biopsy for HPV removal), every single women the room had already had one too.  i say you sound male because when you talk to women, pretty much every woman you speak to that has ever been tested has had it.  we just don't announce it on the nightly news.
2013-12-05 02:23:25 PM  
1 votes:
I should have been more clear in my earlier posts, a9malend I would like to clear up some misinformation that I see in this thread. HPV is not a female only issue.  I (younger male) was diagnosed with Squamous Cell Carcinoma of the tonsil and base of tongue last month.

I had no symptoms whatsoever with the exception of a swollen lymph node.  It swelled up on me over night.  I was told by my PCP that it could be anything and not to worry too much.  He put me on Antibiotics which didn't touch it. I came back 6 days later, he sent me to an ENT who scoped my neck and found nothing. He sent me for some blood tests, which came out fine, and put me on a different round of antibiotics.  This didn't make the node reduce, so he took a Fine Needle Biopsy, which came up suspicious for SCC.  I then went to MRI, no tumor found.  I had a biopsy of the tonsil done, came back negative. Finally had a PET scan which showed uptake on the right tonsil and the BoT and the Lymph node. 2 days later I had a tonsillectomy and pathology came back positive for cancer.

Since then I have been to about 25 doctor visits.  This week I had 2 surgeries, I have had a MediPort put in, and a stomach tube.  My course will be 35 radiation treatments and 7 chemo treatments.   These may or may not completely destroy my salivary glands.   And for about 10 weeks my throat will hurt so badly that I will likely only be able to receive nutrition thru a tube that hangs out of my gut.

And if that doesn't get any Farkers attn this will: I will lose my taste buds for up to a year, and worst of all no more beer for about 3-4 months.

Everyone should get their children vaccinated both male and female.
2013-12-05 02:13:13 PM  
1 votes:

spidermilk: T.rex: Egoy3k: More like she opened her wallet and pandered.  Not really the same thing, just as shiatty to be sure, but not the same.

Are you kidding.... There's no money to be had to be anti-Big Pharma.... You got that backwards.

I agree with you BUT I would say about 50% of the age 20-30 mothers I know have voiced their concern about vaccines. And by concern I don't mean that they are reviewing appropriate literature or talking to an immune specialist. I mean they are forwarding quack websites to each other and re-posting that kid who's mother claims he died from the flu vaccine.

If you have an afternoon talk show you probably want these mommies to get interested. It is easier for Katie to come on her show and try to scare them into not vaccinating than it is for her to be an actual journalist and possibly offend (or educate) them.

Luckily, most of the above mentioned 20-30 year old mothers I know don't care enough (apparently) to refuse mandatory vaccines. So, they think that the flu vaccine might kill their child, but they don't actually care enough to fill out some paper work and refuse a vaccine (apparently). I know one chick who works in a hospital and although she firmly believes the flu shot could kill you and always gives you the flu, SHE STILL GETS ONE since she would lose her job otherwise. Clearly, if you really thought this had a reasonable chance of killing you wouldn't you be willing to lose your job?


A good number of pediatricians will fire patients who refuse to vaccinate.  You can always find one who won't, but it takes some extra work beyond signing forms, which is why those doctors do it - they don't want to enable anti-vaxxers.

Now, I do happen to think that getting everything in the world on the same day is a bad idea, and the CDC recommended timelines are actually flexible enough to avoid that, but pediatricians are in the habit of lumping them together because it can be hard to get people to come back in over and over again.  Unfortunately, the anti-vaxxers have made it hard to ask for a non-standard (but still within recommended guidelines) vaccination schedule without sounding a little like one of those crazies.
2013-12-05 02:08:19 PM  
1 votes:

IRQ12: Questioning the validity and worth of a vaccination backed by a pure profit motive is not a bad thing. Who heard of HPV before the vaccination came out?


ilsociopatico.files.wordpress.com
2013-12-05 02:05:07 PM  
1 votes:

cefm: she allowed an anti-vaxxer on her show


No, she invited three of them. Or at least one of them and two other people implicitly supporting it on the basis of what they don't know.

I agree that she's probably not an anti-vaxxer but rather simply a money-grubbing shiatbird, but when you lie down with dogs...

Besides, this is one of those issues where there is no debate. The science is settled (technically it was never UNsettled since the only "science" ever in favor of the antivaxxers was outright fraud) and short of someone bringing novel, reproducible scientific evidence to the table there is no valid reason to EVER give a scumbag like this an audience. It's equivalent to bringing on an "expert" on flat earth "theory". If you're going to do it, the resulting ridicule is your own damn fault.
2013-12-05 01:59:06 PM  
1 votes:

IRQ12: Who heard of HPV before the vaccination came out?


you sound male
2013-12-05 01:50:19 PM  
1 votes:

jrodr018: meintx2001: Stop with the herd immunity crap.  If you don't take the vaccine for what ever reason, don't force others to take it to protect you.  It should be their decision.  As for all of the "vaccines are safe, you're just stupid" crowd, every medication given in the US is deemed safe.  But then how many are recalled later when it is determined that they aren't safe?  And how many people suffer and die during that process?

Better yet, if you can't take the vaccine stay away from everyone else.

I cannot for the life of me remember a single medication, especially a vaccine, that has been determined as "safe". All medications have risked associated with them (however infinitesimal), but I am sure you knew that.


Yes, Thank you.  What I was referring to was that while ALL meds in the US pass FDA and are CONSIDERED safe, they are not always.  And yes, I know there are risks.  There are risks to everything.  That was directed at the people that claim that vaccines are not dangerous or deadly.  For some they may be dangerous or deadly.  So if someone doesn't want to take that risk they should not be forced to.
2013-12-05 01:45:50 PM  
1 votes:

chairmenmeow47: scubamage: Any prevention is wonderful!

agreed!  especially since most of the men i've run into are pretty clueless about the whole thing, although knowledge seems to increase every year.


I think a lot of that stems from the social stigma associated with viruses like HSV and HPV, combined with the "immortal youth" mentality. "Nothing bad can ever happen to me, and if it would happen to me, I'd know it!" Well, suddenly you are infected with a virus that shows no symptoms, and you're giving the gift of cancer to everyone you date. I mean, in school we barely glossed over STD's. If they'd mentioned that HSV is found in close to 50% of adults (had chickenpox? guess what! You're infected!), and HPV in almost 75%, maybe kids would pay more attention.
2013-12-05 01:42:39 PM  
1 votes:
My friend's sister is an RN and an anti-vaxxer (she married an idiot and she listens to him). She was ranting and raving on FB the other day that about how hospitals treat nurses that don't get the flu vaccine and how she was lucky that her hospital only made her wear a mask.

I think we know the same girl, although pretty much every nurse I've ever met has been nuts.
2013-12-05 01:40:43 PM  
1 votes:

T.rex: Egoy3k: More like she opened her wallet and pandered.  Not really the same thing, just as shiatty to be sure, but not the same.

Are you kidding.... There's no money to be had to be anti-Big Pharma.... You got that backwards.


I agree with you BUT I would say about 50% of the age 20-30 mothers I know have voiced their concern about vaccines. And by concern I don't mean that they are reviewing appropriate literature or talking to an immune specialist. I mean they are forwarding quack websites to each other and re-posting that kid who's mother claims he died from the flu vaccine.

If you have an afternoon talk show you probably want these mommies to get interested. It is easier for Katie to come on her show and try to scare them into not vaccinating than it is for her to be an actual journalist and possibly offend (or educate) them.

Luckily, most of the above mentioned 20-30 year old mothers I know don't care enough (apparently) to refuse mandatory vaccines. So, they think that the flu vaccine might kill their child, but they don't actually care enough to fill out some paper work and refuse a vaccine (apparently). I know one chick who works in a hospital and although she firmly believes the flu shot could kill you and always gives you the flu, SHE STILL GETS ONE since she would lose her job otherwise. Clearly, if you really thought this had a reasonable chance of killing you wouldn't you be willing to lose your job?
2013-12-05 01:35:46 PM  
1 votes:

YoungLochinvar: chairmenmeow47: scubamage: Inchoate: JacobDavidWatson: She's just talking about the HPV vaccine, not all vaccines.. I didn't really read the article thnough.  HPV... most chicks will have it one day, and at worst it causes cancer when we are old.  Not talking this vaccine won't have dire Darwinian consequences im afraid..

This vaccine is only for chicks right?

HPV affects men also, and there are increasing calls for the vaccine to be administered and promoted for both sexes.

Really? I hadn't heard that. HPV in men is weird because there is no actual test to determine if it is present, unless you have physical lesions (which of course only appear in strains which don't cause cancer, so that's a non-starter).

if you don't think it affects men, how do you think straight women get the disease?

It's not totally clear, but I think scubamage is saying that HPV is typically *asymptomatic* in men (i.e., it doesn't cause any effects in men), not that men aren't carriers for HPV.


You got it, and that's what I meant. I actually was diagnosed with HPV when I was in college, but I only knew because I had physical lesions. When the lesions went away, there was no way I could be tested to tell if I still had the virus or not. In many healthy adults and in many of the strains, the virus either is completely gone, or dormant within 2 years.

The strains which cause lesions aren't ones that cause cancer, which is a good thing. But you often can be exposed to multiple strains. So in my case, I could have had a cancer causing strain and a strain which causes lesions. The lesion-causing one went away, but there's no way to tell if my system is clean or not. I asked my wife to get the vaccine before we had any sexual encounters.
2013-12-05 01:32:35 PM  
1 votes:
Why do I feel like the only sane person, aside from the occasional FARKER?

When the HPV shot came out we waited a few years just to make sure it was reliable and safe.  Just had our two boys vaccinated on Monday (yeah, I know--there are two more doses) to help them increase their chances of a healthy life.

/Good thing the vaccine doesn't turn boys into turbo-powered monster sluts the way it does for the girls.
2013-12-05 01:30:39 PM  
1 votes:

Carn: So, if you refuse to vaccinate yourself or your kid against pertussis, congratulations, you're indirectly responsible for the death of infants.


It would be great if you could bring involuntary manslaughter charges against people who refuse to get vaccinated without a valid medical reason and then make others deathly ill.

Sadly, it would just be way too hard to prove any individual case.

We really ought to make people who refuse vaccinations without cause sign waivers that acknowledge liability and obligate them to positively identify themselves to the community as the potential biological threat they are and also remain a minimum distance from schools, playgrounds, nursing homes, medical offices, hospitals and other areas where immune-compromised individuals could be.
2013-12-05 01:30:07 PM  
1 votes:

Ex-Texan: Let their kids contract diseases easily prevented by vaccines, then place the burden of care on the parents.. Teh Bible is not an approved method of treatment.


I may be wrong but I don't think Katie Couric, Jenny McCarthy and many others like them are in what one would consider the bible thumping crowd.

It's intellectually dishonest you would automatically just conjure up a strawmen and link your anti christianity views to just about anything that comes up.
2013-12-05 01:24:56 PM  
1 votes:
Sounds more like she joined the brigade of ex-journalists who decided that whoring pants-on-head retarded garbage to stay-at-home moms for filthy lucre was more important than maintaining any level of integrity.

Say what you will about Morton Downey Jr. and Jerry Springer, at least they didn't try to coat their bullshiat with a veneer of civility to try and convince people they were serious.

FOAD, Couric.

/ the stupidest TV imaginable is on the three major networks between 9 AM and 4 PM Monday through Friday
2013-12-05 01:22:57 PM  
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: ladodger34: My friend's sister is an RN and an anti-vaxxer

Your friend's sister deserves to lose her RN license.


I don't necessarily disagree with you on this. It's an idiotic stance.

My friend, wife, and I did have a good discussion about this the other day. RNs are wonderful at what they do, but the vast majority of their training and/or experience is on the job kind of stuff. The vast majority of their training is clinical kind of stuff and is light on the research.

My wife (a teacher) has a health science degree and probably has a greater understanding of public health issues than most most RNs. But she has no clinical experience and never will. RNs are kind of the opposite. Worlds of clinical health experience but little understanding of public health policy.

Then there are folks like my brother's best friend (i call him my surrogate brother) that has a pharm D that have both and even though my experience is limited, it seems like folks in his position (book learnin' and practical experience) are far more acceptable of vaccines.
2013-12-05 01:21:36 PM  
1 votes:

super_grass: For the outraged, this is what actually happened:

- Couric's show runs out of ideas, lets in an anti-vac nutter on the program over yet another fake controversy.
- Writer for clickbait-site writes clickbaity exaggeration about how Couric let the derp side walk over her.
- Fark headline exaggerates iffy story a second time, proclaims that Couric joined the derp side.

Final tally: mild disappointment, vows to not watch a show that I don't watch in first place


Sorry, but giving any air-time to anti-vaccination nutters is worthy outrage given the harm it can cause. Exaggeration or not, these people should not be given voice in the media, especially not on a mainstream network with a high profile host who people trust.
2013-12-05 01:08:08 PM  
1 votes:

meintx2001: Stop with the herd immunity crap.  If you don't take the vaccine for what ever reason, don't force others to take it to protect you.  It should be their decision.  As for all of the "vaccines are safe, you're just stupid" crowd, every medication given in the US is deemed safe.  But then how many are recalled later when it is determined that they aren't safe?  And how many people suffer and die during that process?

Better yet, if you can't take the vaccine stay away from everyone else.


I cannot for the life of me remember a single medication, especially a vaccine, that has been determined as "safe". All medications have risked associated with them (however infinitesimal), but I am sure you knew that.
2013-12-05 01:06:12 PM  
1 votes:

exvaxman: My daughter was killed by the pertussis vaccine. Going through the VAERS act as we had to do, it took years due to the political issues to get a settlement. The most obvious was "we have not heard a recent health issue" from the government. The reply of our lawyer (who helped write the VAERS act) stripped the government lawyer of her ability to be a lawyer ever again. Something like he had sent a death certificate and two years later she requested a status update.

My kid has everything but the pertussis vaccine right now.


I call bullshiat.
2013-12-05 01:01:03 PM  
1 votes:

scubamage: Inchoate: JacobDavidWatson: She's just talking about the HPV vaccine, not all vaccines.. I didn't really read the article thnough.  HPV... most chicks will have it one day, and at worst it causes cancer when we are old.  Not talking this vaccine won't have dire Darwinian consequences im afraid..

This vaccine is only for chicks right?

HPV affects men also, and there are increasing calls for the vaccine to be administered and promoted for both sexes.

Really? I hadn't heard that. HPV in men is weird because there is no actual test to determine if it is present, unless you have physical lesions (which of course only appear in strains which don't cause cancer, so that's a non-starter).


if you don't think it affects men, how do you think straight women get the disease?
2013-12-05 12:55:04 PM  
1 votes:

Rapmaster2000: T.rex: Egoy3k: More like she opened her wallet and pandered.  Not really the same thing, just as shiatty to be sure, but not the same.

Are you kidding.... There's no money to be had to be anti-Big Pharma.... You got that backwards.

She's cutting right into their MASSIVE vaccine profits.  Follow the money and you will see.  Just study it out.


Pharma companies lose money on vaccines. I have "studied it out."
2013-12-05 12:53:44 PM  
1 votes:
My only concern at this point is that this country will have utterly collapsed and will be eating itself alive before I can secure citizenship in a country whose citizens are not equal parts frothing-at-the-mouth insane and pants-on-head stupid.
2013-12-05 12:48:16 PM  
1 votes:
Stop with the herd immunity crap.  If you don't take the vaccine for what ever reason, don't force others to take it to protect you.  It should be their decision.  As for all of the "vaccines are safe, you're just stupid" crowd, every medication given in the US is deemed safe.  But then how many are recalled later when it is determined that they aren't safe?  And how many people suffer and die during that process?

Better yet, if you can't take the vaccine stay away from everyone else.
2013-12-05 12:39:40 PM  
1 votes:

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: I'm fine with not vaccinating your kids, provided there are some caveats.

If they choose not to vaccinate theirr kid against something, the doctor will immediately infect the parents with it. In Katie Couric's case, a shot of HPV right in the cervix. But this would hold true for just about any preventable disease. Don't want to vaccinate your kid against polio? Well, now that I've injected you with polio, have you changed your mind?


Couric got her kids vaccinated. She's just telling other parents that it may be ok to not vaccinate. So, she's totally in the clear, in that her kids may survive, while thousands of her viewers are exposing their children to unnecessary risk.
2013-12-05 12:37:59 PM  
1 votes:

T.rex: Egoy3k: More like she opened her wallet and pandered.  Not really the same thing, just as shiatty to be sure, but not the same.

Are you kidding.... There's no money to be had to be anti-Big Pharma.... You got that backwards.


She's cutting right into their MASSIVE vaccine profits.  Follow the money and you will see.  Just study it out.
2013-12-05 12:29:35 PM  
1 votes:

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: I'm fine with not vaccinating your kids, provided there are some caveats.

If they choose not to vaccinate theirr kid against something, the doctor will immediately infect the parents with it. In Katie Couric's case, a shot of HPV right in the cervix. But this would hold true for just about any preventable disease. Don't want to vaccinate your kid against polio? Well, now that I've injected you with polio, have you changed your mind?


My dad's a polio survivor, and he became a pharmaceutical researcher, so he's getting a kick, etc.

Get your kids their goddamn shots, people.
2013-12-05 12:27:27 PM  
1 votes:
Meh, I'll vaccinate my kids. If they don't want to vaccinate theirs, it's blood on their hands. It's the easy way to decrease the surplus population.
2013-12-05 12:26:18 PM  
1 votes:
My daughter was killed by the pertussis vaccine. Going through the VAERS act as we had to do, it took years due to the political issues to get a settlement. The most obvious was "we have not heard a recent health issue" from the government. The reply of our lawyer (who helped write the VAERS act) stripped the government lawyer of her ability to be a lawyer ever again. Something like he had sent a death certificate and two years later she requested a status update.

My kid has everything but the pertussis vaccine right now.
2013-12-05 12:23:25 PM  
1 votes:
...and whammy! can someone photo shop her crooked smile onto the sports guy from Anchorman's face?
2013-12-05 12:22:26 PM  
1 votes:
Not surprised. Couric's always been a dumb bimbo.
2013-12-05 12:19:28 PM  
1 votes:

stampylives: it appears we have one of those rare situations where it is perfectly acceptable to break out the C word.


You must not drive in the Northeast much...
2013-12-05 12:17:08 PM  
1 votes:
it appears we have one of those rare situations where it is perfectly acceptable to break out the C word.
2013-12-05 12:16:25 PM  
1 votes:
Nooooooooooooooo!

You were the chosen one! You were supposed to bring balance to the morning news!
 
Displayed 96 of 96 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report