If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Slate)   It looks like Katie Couric is the latest addition to the anti-vaxxer idiot brigade   (slate.com) divider line 216
    More: Dumbass, Katie Couric, Amanda Marcotte, Double X, brigades, AlterNet, HPV Vaccine, CBS Evening News, Dr. Andrew Wakefield  
•       •       •

10148 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Dec 2013 at 12:13 PM (40 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



216 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-12-05 03:57:01 PM

Egoy3k: tlars699: I had a concern about the MMR shot- I had this vaccine given to my kids, by itself, within appropriate time-range, so that if something were to happen autism-wise, I could show that the shot would be in part responsible.

This makes zero sense.  During the same time frame your child also, ate, pooped, breathed, cried, smiled, saw the color red, wore clothes, was naked, interacted with mommy, interacted with daddy etc etc etc, would all of those things have also been partly responsible if you child was diagnosed with autism?


Yes, but they also did all of those other things before having the shot.
Treating interactions before the shot as the control regarding behavioral tendencies, if anything violently changed over the time span of say, a week, all of those other causes would be regarded, and if none of those other things had been shifted in any respect(which they wouldn't be), then it could be shown that the shot had an effect on their behavior.
But it's a moot point, as my anecdotal experiments showed the same results as any other study properly conducted: none.
 
2013-12-05 03:59:20 PM

kiwimoogle84: jrodr018: Ctrl-Alt-Del: kiwimoogle84: I've read many MANY studies on it, here's just one reference-

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/16/hpv-va cc ine-effectiveness.aspx

That's not a study, that's an article written by a practitioner of "alternative medicine" - anti-vaxxer and fraudulent vitamin huckster Joseph Mercola

 kiwimoogle84: I've read all kinds of stuff that suggest that studies were fraudulently altered

"All kinds of stuff"? Very convincing. I've read "all kinds of stuff" that "suggests" that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. I rather suspect it is on par with the stuff you have read

If you read her quotes and check references she cites, especially her main point, the link of the "reference" says NOTHING even close to her quotes. It is kind of funny.

I have a screaming child in my lap and I haven't slept since Tuesday, I'm sorry I don't have the time or focus to pore through the internet to find the perfect source.


Nobodies asking for a "perfect" source - we're just asking for one that isn't 100% bullcrap, like the Mercola link
 
2013-12-05 04:01:13 PM

Ctrl-Alt-Del: kiwimoogle84: jrodr018: Ctrl-Alt-Del: kiwimoogle84: I've read many MANY studies on it, here's just one reference-

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/16/hpv-va cc ine-effectiveness.aspx

That's not a study, that's an article written by a practitioner of "alternative medicine" - anti-vaxxer and fraudulent vitamin huckster Joseph Mercola

 kiwimoogle84: I've read all kinds of stuff that suggest that studies were fraudulently altered

"All kinds of stuff"? Very convincing. I've read "all kinds of stuff" that "suggests" that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. I rather suspect it is on par with the stuff you have read

If you read her quotes and check references she cites, especially her main point, the link of the "reference" says NOTHING even close to her quotes. It is kind of funny.

I have a screaming child in my lap and I haven't slept since Tuesday, I'm sorry I don't have the time or focus to pore through the internet to find the perfect source.

Nobodies asking for a "perfect" source - we're just asking for one that isn't 100% bullcrap, like the Mercola link


http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2012/bcr-2012-006879.abstract
 
2013-12-05 04:03:11 PM

kiwimoogle84: jrodr018: Ctrl-Alt-Del: kiwimoogle84: I've read many MANY studies on it, here's just one reference-

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/16/hpv-va cc ine-effectiveness.aspx

That's not a study, that's an article written by a practitioner of "alternative medicine" - anti-vaxxer and fraudulent vitamin huckster Joseph Mercola

 kiwimoogle84: I've read all kinds of stuff that suggest that studies were fraudulently altered

"All kinds of stuff"? Very convincing. I've read "all kinds of stuff" that "suggests" that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. I rather suspect it is on par with the stuff you have read

If you read her quotes and check references she cites, especially her main point, the link of the "reference" says NOTHING even close to her quotes. It is kind of funny.

I have a screaming child in my lap and I haven't slept since Tuesday, I'm sorry I don't have the time or focus to pore through the internet to find the perfect source.


I understand. That's why I recommend PubMed. All repeatable articles are listed there. It has all sort of goodies.
 
2013-12-05 04:04:39 PM

kiwimoogle84: http://articles.mercola.


th09.deviantart.net

Mercola is NOT a reliable source of information, on anything, PERIOD. This is a guy who advocated megadosing with Vitamin D, and almost killed himself doing so by his own woo.

kiwimoogle84: Like I said I'm not an anti vaxxer, I just read too much about this vaccine in particular to decide it wasn't for me.


You might not be an anti-vaxxer, but you've been mislead by them.
 
2013-12-05 04:07:30 PM

kiwimoogle84: http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2012/bcr-2012-006879.abstract


You cannot base your beliefs on an N=1 case study which presents something that, in all likelihood, had nothing to do with HPV vaccination in the first place. That's not a scientific study you're reading, but a write up by a physician on a patient they have treated.

The HPV Vaccine is safe, and effective.
 
2013-12-05 04:09:53 PM

kiwimoogle84: http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2012/bcr-2012-006879.abstract


Well, that's actually a case report, not a study, but at least it's legit - thanks for taking a bit of time to find it.

FTFS: " Premature ovarian failure was then notified as a possible adverse event following this vaccination."

So you have one single data point where a serious medical condition might have been a "possible adverse event following this vaccination"

people.virginia.edu

people.virginia.edu
 
2013-12-05 04:11:50 PM

tlars699: Egoy3k: tlars699: I had a concern about the MMR shot- I had this vaccine given to my kids, by itself, within appropriate time-range, so that if something were to happen autism-wise, I could show that the shot would be in part responsible.

This makes zero sense.  During the same time frame your child also, ate, pooped, breathed, cried, smiled, saw the color red, wore clothes, was naked, interacted with mommy, interacted with daddy etc etc etc, would all of those things have also been partly responsible if you child was diagnosed with autism?

Yes, but they also did all of those other things before having the shot.
Treating interactions before the shot as the control regarding behavioral tendencies, if anything violently changed over the time span of say, a week, all of those other causes would be regarded, and if none of those other things had been shifted in any respect(which they wouldn't be), then it could be shown that the shot had an effect on their behavior.
But it's a moot point, as my anecdotal experiments showed the same results as any other study properly conducted: none.


I would also like to note that at the time, I was documenting everything regarding their behavior in a journal to be shared/updated between their father and I, so he could have an accurate picture on how they were developing.

After this stage(shots had been taken for over 6 months), and once it became clear that their father was misinforming me via said journal, we stopped doing that altogether. :\
 
2013-12-05 04:11:57 PM
Can you guess how I know that Katie's hoo-hah isn't getting nearly enough attention, lately?
 
2013-12-05 04:13:13 PM

Ctrl-Alt-Del: kiwimoogle84: http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2012/bcr-2012-006879.abstract

Well, that's actually a case report, not a study, but at least it's legit - thanks for taking a bit of time to find it.

FTFS: " Premature ovarian failure was then notified as a possible adverse event following this vaccination."

So you have one single data point where a serious medical condition might have been a "possible adverse event following this vaccination"

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]


I'll do more research, I just don't like stuff I've read thus far. Most farkers know me to be a sensible human being so I'm not a nut- but I do at least have time to make a decision before my daughter is of age. Maybe they'll develop one that doesn't have so much negativity surrounding it.
 
2013-12-05 04:13:42 PM

kiwimoogle84: Ctrl-Alt-Del: kiwimoogle84: jrodr018: Ctrl-Alt-Del: kiwimoogle84: I've read many MANY studies on it, here's just one reference-

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/16/hpv-va cc ine-effectiveness.aspx

That's not a study, that's an article written by a practitioner of "alternative medicine" - anti-vaxxer and fraudulent vitamin huckster Joseph Mercola

 kiwimoogle84: I've read all kinds of stuff that suggest that studies were fraudulently altered

"All kinds of stuff"? Very convincing. I've read "all kinds of stuff" that "suggests" that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. I rather suspect it is on par with the stuff you have read

If you read her quotes and check references she cites, especially her main point, the link of the "reference" says NOTHING even close to her quotes. It is kind of funny.

I have a screaming child in my lap and I haven't slept since Tuesday, I'm sorry I don't have the time or focus to pore through the internet to find the perfect source.

Nobodies asking for a "perfect" source - we're just asking for one that isn't 100% bullcrap, like the Mercola link

http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2012/bcr-2012-006879.abstract


You should read the paper sometime. In particular, because although the authors do not mention it in the abstract, they say in the text of the paper itself, "It is not known whether this event of premature ovarian failure is linked to the quadrivalent HPV vaccine."

Really.
 
2013-12-05 04:14:57 PM

tlars699: I would also like to note that at the time, I was documenting everything regarding their behavior in a journal to be shared/updated between their father and I, so he could have an accurate picture on how they were developing.

After this stage(shots had been taken for over 6 months), and once it became clear that their father was misinforming me via said journal, we stopped doing that altogether. :\


Your entire premise was flawed, as it is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacious assumption without any evidence supporting.

To be quite frank, studies have not only found that vaccines did not worsen the symptoms of autism, but that the symptoms were present as early as three months of life, before six month and one year vaccinations were given.
 
2013-12-05 04:19:00 PM

Ctrl-Alt-Del: kiwimoogle84: http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2012/bcr-2012-006879.abstract

Well, that's actually a case report, not a study, but at least it's legit - thanks for taking a bit of time to find it.

FTFS: " Premature ovarian failure was then notified as a possible adverse event following this vaccination."

So you have one single data point where a serious medical condition might have been a "possible adverse event following this vaccination"

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]


Just because it's noted as being a possibility, and not specifically a cause via the case study(given not enough data to draw that conclusion, per se), it does not mean that the results will not be found to be the same, or that it won't lead to being discovered as the cause, given a proper course of study.

Reformat: Just because it's a case study, does not mean her conclusions are necessarily wrong. She needs more data. Correlation does not mean Causation, but it doesn't rule Causation out, either.

Cherry Picking, yes.
Post Hoc ergo propter hoc, not so much... yet.
 
2013-12-05 04:20:14 PM

kiwimoogle84: Ctrl-Alt-Del: kiwimoogle84: http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2012/bcr-2012-006879.abstract

Well, that's actually a case report, not a study, but at least it's legit - thanks for taking a bit of time to find it.

FTFS: " Premature ovarian failure was then notified as a possible adverse event following this vaccination."

So you have one single data point where a serious medical condition might have been a "possible adverse event following this vaccination"

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

I'll do more research, I just don't like stuff I've read thus far.


I gotta be honest with you, I strongly suspect the stuff you've read so far is far too much from sources like super-quack Mercola. The science is out there, and it's pretty clear - this vaccine is safe and extremely effective

Most farkers know me to be a sensible human being so I'm not a nut- but I do at least have time to make a decision before my daughter is of age.

I've seen you post plenty, and even where I disagree disagree with you you're still pretty reasonable. I think you've been grievously misinformed on this subject by sources that seem authoritative but aren't

Maybe they'll develop one that doesn't have so much negativity surrounding it.

All that negativity is coming from a relatively small, but extremely energetic and vocal cadre of people armed with anger, fear, and misinformation. And, quite often, some "naturopathic" product they want to sell you
 
2013-12-05 04:21:25 PM

kiwimoogle84: I've read many MANY studies on it, here's just one reference-

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/16/hpv-vac c ine-effectiveness.aspx


That's an alternative medicine, antivax-leaning site that has a pretty obvious angle. I'd suggest either linking directly to research or linking to more neutral med websites.

I looked at the studies and links they referenced (well, the PubMed study is behind a paywall, so I can't pass judgment on that one way or the other beyond its abstract).

Stuff that's true:
- The FDA/Merck efficacy study does indeed note that it's possible for Gardasil to exacerbate abnormal cervical cell growth in women who are seropositive for the virus types addressed by the vaccine; that's one of the reasons why OB/GYNs prefer that you get a Pap smear before you get this vaccine. It remains demonstrably effective if you are seronegative when vaccinated, which is true for a huge number of people.
- It's true that Gardasil affects only four of the most prevalent, dangerous types of HPV, and that there are plenty of other serotypes. We haven't come up with vaccines for those yet.
- It's true that the body is capable, sometimes, of resolving HPV infections on its own.

Stuff that's bullshiat:
- No mention of the possible existence of confounding factors for the study group that was seropositive for vaccine-affected HPV types; the study talks about this
- Caterwauling about "sudden death" and "deaths after taking Gardasil"... which are either totally uncited or cited out of context. The studies explicitly talk about deaths having been due to other identifiable causes. The guy also cites VAERS reports of adverse events - reports, not verified cases or paid restitution. Anybody can make a report to VAERS about anything; that data cannot be used to draw meaningful medical conclusions.
- Did they seriously cite WorldNetDaily? lulz
- The compensation data lacks all proportionality. A few dozen to a few hundred verified adverse events + a number of deaths I can count on my fingers are pretty normal for a vaccine that's been administered to MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

Yuuuuup I'm callin' shenanigans.
 
2013-12-05 04:24:03 PM

voodoomedic: I've recently lost a ton of nurse "friends" who, as group decided (with the help of a bunch of pink wine,) that they were all going to crusade for the anti-vax crowd in support of one of their colleagues whose son "caught Autism from his shots." Since they provide direct patient care to children, I felt obligated to report their profoundly dangerous opinion to their Director of Nursing, who called them all in for an educational afternoon, off the clock.


I would buy you a case of pink wine (or whatever) for having the 'nads to do that. Good on ya.
 
2013-12-05 04:24:37 PM

Inchoate: Anybody can make a report to VAERS about anything


Did you know a vaccine once turned a man into the incredible hulk? VAERS knew.

/vaccines can also shoot people, cause thromboembolic strokes, and crash cars, too.
 
2013-12-05 04:26:30 PM

tlars699: Ctrl-Alt-Del: kiwimoogle84: http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2012/bcr-2012-006879.abstract

Well, that's actually a case report, not a study, but at least it's legit - thanks for taking a bit of time to find it.

FTFS: " Premature ovarian failure was then notified as a possible adverse event following this vaccination."

So you have one single data point where a serious medical condition might have been a "possible adverse event following this vaccination"

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

Just because it's noted as being a possibility, and not specifically a cause via the case study(given not enough data to draw that conclusion, per se), it does not mean that the results will not be found to be the same, or that it won't lead to being discovered as the cause, given a proper course of study.

Reformat: Just because it's a case study, does not mean her conclusions are necessarily wrong. She needs more data. Correlation does not mean Causation, but it doesn't rule Causation out, either.

Cherry Picking, yes.
Post Hoc ergo propter hoc, not so much... yet.


Well I'm just gonna eke myself out of this thread, because I'm pretty certain I'm wrong and I feel stupid, I just heard disastrous things from folks that I KNOW to be reasonable. And I am about as far from crunchy organic blah blah mom as you can get. So I'll do more reading once it actually applies to my life- I shouldn't have come in here and run my mouth.
 
2013-12-05 04:27:30 PM

tlars699: Ctrl-Alt-Del: kiwimoogle84: http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2012/bcr-2012-006879.abstract

Well, that's actually a case report, not a study, but at least it's legit - thanks for taking a bit of time to find it.

FTFS: " Premature ovarian failure was then notified as a possible adverse event following this vaccination."

So you have one single data point where a serious medical condition might have been a "possible adverse event following this vaccination"

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

Just because it's noted as being a possibility, and not specifically a cause via the case study(given not enough data to draw that conclusion, per se), it does not mean that the results will not be found to be the same, or that it won't lead to being discovered as the cause, given a proper course of study.

Reformat: Just because it's a case study, does not mean her conclusions are necessarily wrong. She needs more data. Correlation does not mean Causation, but it doesn't rule Causation out, either.

Cherry Picking, yes.
Post Hoc ergo propter hoc, not so much... yet.


When it comes from an advisor of a Catholic anti-abortion group, it gives it less credence.
 
2013-12-05 04:30:19 PM

kiwimoogle84: I shouldn't have come in here and run my mouth.


No, no one is saying that. We're actually happy you did, because this is the way people who have been mislead by the anti-vaccine folks learn just what slimeballs they've been listening to. If we sound harsh, it's because we're used to dealing with anti-vax concern trolls and personal attacks from Age of Autism/Anti-Vax cronies.

Something to understand is that many people in the anti-vaxx movement are very charismatic and influential on pop-culture level. They're much more attractive to listen to, and they sound much more down to earth and "connectable" to you than some scientists at a University who developed a vaccine.

If you really want to critically examine how valid their arguments are, keep in mind that 99.95% of their arguments against vaccines rely on a conspiracy theory that stretches the highest levels of industry and government, despite there being no concrete proof of it they can point to.
 
2013-12-05 04:32:03 PM

hardinparamedic: tlars699: I would also like to note that at the time, I was documenting everything regarding their behavior in a journal to be shared/updated between their father and I, so he could have an accurate picture on how they were developing.

After this stage(shots had been taken for over 6 months), and once it became clear that their father was misinforming me via said journal, we stopped doing that altogether. :\

Your entire premise was flawed, as it is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacious assumption without any evidence supporting.

To be quite frank, studies have not only found that vaccines did not worsen the symptoms of autism, but that the symptoms were present as early as three months of life, before six month and one year vaccinations were given.


My premise would have shown at least a stronger correlation, with possible causation, as there were absolutely no behavioral indicators of autism prior to shot, as was shown through documentation. (Both boys were very verbal/bonded easily with other people, etc. Doctor advised me of such when I said I wanted to wait to have the shot by itself)
Shot was given> Hypothesis: if behaviors had changed within a week (time it would take to distribute through system, and as is presupposed by most parents propounding this idea), then shot could be shown to at least activate autism behaviors that had not previously presented.

Experiment yielded no difference in behaviors.

Hypothesis failed.

Vaccination = autism proven false by my very simple case study.

Granted- not purely scientific(No full control set; I'm not going to isolate them from daycare/living their life as needed, because that would be inhumane), but I fail to see your problem with my premise, or that I went through such, or my yielded results.
 
2013-12-05 04:34:09 PM

jrodr018: tlars699: Ctrl-Alt-Del: kiwimoogle84: http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2012/bcr-2012-006879.abstract

Well, that's actually a case report, not a study, but at least it's legit - thanks for taking a bit of time to find it.

FTFS: " Premature ovarian failure was then notified as a possible adverse event following this vaccination."

So you have one single data point where a serious medical condition might have been a "possible adverse event following this vaccination"

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

Just because it's noted as being a possibility, and not specifically a cause via the case study(given not enough data to draw that conclusion, per se), it does not mean that the results will not be found to be the same, or that it won't lead to being discovered as the cause, given a proper course of study.

Reformat: Just because it's a case study, does not mean her conclusions are necessarily wrong. She needs more data. Correlation does not mean Causation, but it doesn't rule Causation out, either.

Cherry Picking, yes.
Post Hoc ergo propter hoc, not so much... yet.

When it comes from an advisor of a Catholic anti-abortion group, it gives it less credence.


Point conceded.
 
2013-12-05 04:34:09 PM

hardinparamedic: kiwimoogle84: I shouldn't have come in here and run my mouth.

No, no one is saying that. We're actually happy you did, because this is the way people who have been mislead by the anti-vaccine folks learn just what slimeballs they've been listening to. If we sound harsh, it's because we're used to dealing with anti-vax concern trolls and personal attacks from Age of Autism/Anti-Vax cronies.

Something to understand is that many people in the anti-vaxx movement are very charismatic and influential on pop-culture level. They're much more attractive to listen to, and they sound much more down to earth and "connectable" to you than some scientists at a University who developed a vaccine.

If you really want to critically examine how valid their arguments are, keep in mind that 99.95% of their arguments against vaccines rely on a conspiracy theory that stretches the highest levels of industry and government, despite there being no concrete proof of it they can point to.


I guess it's like I tell a young pregnant friend of mine- too much information can be a bad thing. She's all concerned about harmful ultrasounds, and how crying causes PTSD in infants, and how eating anything with sugar will kill the baby, etc etc... And then links articles from these hippy midwife mom blogs who breastfeed until junior high or some crap. It just makes me insane.

Honestly I have found other articles and studies I just can't locate them at the moment. But again, I'll read more into it.
 
2013-12-05 04:34:15 PM

kiwimoogle84: Well I'm just gonna eke myself out of this thread, because I'm pretty certain I'm wrong and I feel stupid, I just heard disastrous things from folks that I KNOW to be reasonable. And I am about as far from crunchy organic blah blah mom as you can get. So I'll do more reading once it actually applies to my life- I shouldn't have come in here and run my mouth.


FWIW, I don't think you're a horrible terrible no-good very bad person or anything, just that you were misled. Happens. :)
 
2013-12-05 04:34:26 PM

tlars699: Shot was given> Hypothesis: if behaviors had changed within a week (time it would take to distribute through system, and as is presupposed by most parents propounding this idea), then shot could be shown to at least activate autism behaviors that had not previously presented.


If you were able to control for every other factor, and obtain a pre-vaccination and post-vaccination fMRI and MRI scan of your child's prefrontal neuronal density, then yes. You might have been able to come to that conclusion.
 
2013-12-05 04:36:31 PM

kiwimoogle84: tlars699: Ctrl-Alt-Del: kiwimoogle84: http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2012/bcr-2012-006879.abstract

Well, that's actually a case report, not a study, but at least it's legit - thanks for taking a bit of time to find it.

FTFS: " Premature ovarian failure was then notified as a possible adverse event following this vaccination."

So you have one single data point where a serious medical condition might have been a "possible adverse event following this vaccination"

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

Just because it's noted as being a possibility, and not specifically a cause via the case study(given not enough data to draw that conclusion, per se), it does not mean that the results will not be found to be the same, or that it won't lead to being discovered as the cause, given a proper course of study.

Reformat: Just because it's a case study, does not mean her conclusions are necessarily wrong. She needs more data. Correlation does not mean Causation, but it doesn't rule Causation out, either.

Cherry Picking, yes.
Post Hoc ergo propter hoc, not so much... yet.

Well I'm just gonna eke myself out of this thread, because I'm pretty certain I'm wrong and I feel stupid, I just heard disastrous things from folks that I KNOW to be reasonable. And I am about as far from crunchy organic blah blah mom as you can get. So I'll do more reading once it actually applies to my life- I shouldn't have come in here and run my mouth.

 
Dude, that is awesome. Very rarely you see somebody willing to read a bit more to reconsider their position, especially when it comes to vaccinations. The REAL anti-vaxxers usually will completely retreat from the thread when shown data, or accuse everybody of being shills for Big Pharma. You are awesome.
 
2013-12-05 04:37:38 PM

kiwimoogle84: Honestly I have found other articles and studies I just can't locate them at the moment. But again, I'll read more into it.


A couple good places to start are Respectful Insolence and Science Based Medicine. The former is maintained by a researcher/surgical oncologist, and the later is a group of physicians from all kind of specialties - infectious disease, pathology, OBGYN/Pediatrics, and so on. They frequently deconstruct anti-vaccination talking points, and do so with scientific citations of research and case studies.
 
2013-12-05 04:37:50 PM

kiwimoogle84: hardinparamedic: kiwimoogle84: I shouldn't have come in here and run my mouth.

No, no one is saying that. We're actually happy you did, because this is the way people who have been mislead by the anti-vaccine folks learn just what slimeballs they've been listening to. If we sound harsh, it's because we're used to dealing with anti-vax concern trolls and personal attacks from Age of Autism/Anti-Vax cronies.

Something to understand is that many people in the anti-vaxx movement are very charismatic and influential on pop-culture level. They're much more attractive to listen to, and they sound much more down to earth and "connectable" to you than some scientists at a University who developed a vaccine.

If you really want to critically examine how valid their arguments are, keep in mind that 99.95% of their arguments against vaccines rely on a conspiracy theory that stretches the highest levels of industry and government, despite there being no concrete proof of it they can point to.

I guess it's like I tell a young pregnant friend of mine- too much information can be a bad thing. She's all concerned about harmful ultrasounds, and how crying causes PTSD in infants, and how eating anything with sugar will kill the baby, etc etc... And then links articles from these hippy midwife mom blogs who breastfeed until junior high or some crap. It just makes me insane.

Honestly I have found other articles and studies I just can't locate them at the moment. But again, I'll read more into it.


Really? Ultrasounds, now?
I have no words for this level of dumb.
 
2013-12-05 04:40:34 PM

tlars699: kiwimoogle84: hardinparamedic: kiwimoogle84: I shouldn't have come in here and run my mouth.

No, no one is saying that. We're actually happy you did, because this is the way people who have been mislead by the anti-vaccine folks learn just what slimeballs they've been listening to. If we sound harsh, it's because we're used to dealing with anti-vax concern trolls and personal attacks from Age of Autism/Anti-Vax cronies.

Something to understand is that many people in the anti-vaxx movement are very charismatic and influential on pop-culture level. They're much more attractive to listen to, and they sound much more down to earth and "connectable" to you than some scientists at a University who developed a vaccine.

If you really want to critically examine how valid their arguments are, keep in mind that 99.95% of their arguments against vaccines rely on a conspiracy theory that stretches the highest levels of industry and government, despite there being no concrete proof of it they can point to.

I guess it's like I tell a young pregnant friend of mine- too much information can be a bad thing. She's all concerned about harmful ultrasounds, and how crying causes PTSD in infants, and how eating anything with sugar will kill the baby, etc etc... And then links articles from these hippy midwife mom blogs who breastfeed until junior high or some crap. It just makes me insane.

Honestly I have found other articles and studies I just can't locate them at the moment. But again, I'll read more into it.

Really? Ultrasounds, now?
I have no words for this level of dumb.


Yeah. Me neither.

And I am fully able to admit when I'm out of my depth research wise. It's why I don't go on the politics tab. I have one or two good points and then I just haven't done enough reading to keep going. But anyway, y'all enjoy your thread. I'm gonna go take a nap.
 
2013-12-05 04:45:06 PM
I tried to stay out of the discussion, but the dipshiats calling me out is depressing me.

My daughter was given the pertussis vaccine and had a seizure within an hour. She was completely normal before this. The government (you cannot sue any vaccine maker) agreed that she was killed by the vaccine after several years.

Great thanks to the first Bush administration. Their goal was the real intention of the VAERS act for a quick resolution of issues. The stories I could tell about the next administration would scare you. Why I was out there going door to door for Obama, having dealt with Hillary. May she rot in hell. Several senators who were threatened by her for asking about why our case was not going forward, as well as several others were threatened.

You can find my interviews by going through Forbes, the Chicago Trib, the NY times, and a really scary article from the Arizona Republic.
 
2013-12-05 04:47:43 PM

hardinparamedic: tlars699: Shot was given> Hypothesis: if behaviors had changed within a week (time it would take to distribute through system, and as is presupposed by most parents propounding this idea), then shot could be shown to at least activate autism behaviors that had not previously presented.

If you were able to control for every other factor, and obtain a pre-vaccination and post-vaccination fMRI and MRI scan of your child's prefrontal neuronal density, then yes. You might have been able to come to that conclusion.


The problem of conducting experiments on humans, is how to limit outside effects, while still allowing for humane treatment of the subjects, as was previously mentioned.

The bolded item would have been useful, scientifically speaking.

Is this a found factor in Autism's development? Do autistic subjects have a different density than non autistic subjects? Of course it would have to extend beyond a week's time-frame, for scans, at which point-
Would the magnetic scans themselves have an effect on said density?
Would the control set prevent the growth/filtration of said cells? What would be more useful to the community? The child?
Quite the conundrum, really.
 
2013-12-05 04:48:38 PM

kiwimoogle84: tlars699: kiwimoogle84: hardinparamedic: kiwimoogle84: I shouldn't have come in here and run my mouth.

No, no one is saying that. We're actually happy you did, because this is the way people who have been mislead by the anti-vaccine folks learn just what slimeballs they've been listening to. If we sound harsh, it's because we're used to dealing with anti-vax concern trolls and personal attacks from Age of Autism/Anti-Vax cronies.

Something to understand is that many people in the anti-vaxx movement are very charismatic and influential on pop-culture level. They're much more attractive to listen to, and they sound much more down to earth and "connectable" to you than some scientists at a University who developed a vaccine.

If you really want to critically examine how valid their arguments are, keep in mind that 99.95% of their arguments against vaccines rely on a conspiracy theory that stretches the highest levels of industry and government, despite there being no concrete proof of it they can point to.

I guess it's like I tell a young pregnant friend of mine- too much information can be a bad thing. She's all concerned about harmful ultrasounds, and how crying causes PTSD in infants, and how eating anything with sugar will kill the baby, etc etc... And then links articles from these hippy midwife mom blogs who breastfeed until junior high or some crap. It just makes me insane.

Honestly I have found other articles and studies I just can't locate them at the moment. But again, I'll read more into it.

Really? Ultrasounds, now?
I have no words for this level of dumb.

Yeah. Me neither.

And I am fully able to admit when I'm out of my depth research wise. It's why I don't go on the politics tab. I have one or two good points and then I just haven't done enough reading to keep going. But anyway, y'all enjoy your thread. I'm gonna go take a nap.


Enjoy your nap!
 
2013-12-05 04:49:11 PM

exvaxman: My daughter was given the pertussis vaccine and had a seizure within an hour. She was completely normal before this. The government (you cannot sue any vaccine maker) agreed that she was killed by the vaccine after several years.


If your story is true, it's factually incorrect. You are quite able to sue vaccine makers in open civil court. And were these seizures "febrile", by any chance? Which are a known side effect?

And she was "killed by the vaccine"? What is your VAERS case number?

exvaxman: Their goal was the real intention of the VAERS act for a quick resolution of issues.


VAERS was developed before, in 1986. And the reason it was implemented was because pharmaceutical manufacturers were getting out of the vaccine business because they were losing too much money defending in lawsuits.
 
2013-12-05 04:51:34 PM

tlars699: Do autistic subjects have a different density than non autistic subjects?


There is growing evidence that Autism is related to a structural defect in pre-frontal cortex neuronal density and number.

if that were the case, in fact, it would completely invalidate any claims about vaccinations and autism.
 
2013-12-05 04:56:51 PM
exvaxman: ??
Which senators? How were they threatened? By Hilary? Why would she threaten other senators who hadn't asked on your behalf?

The only reason why my grandfather's murderer was put to trial was through political pressure on the DA, so this kind of reverse tactic interests me.

(GF was not murdered in a way relevant to thread, but stabbed 17 times by a Meth user who was left free to roam about the city for three years after the act.)
 
2013-12-05 04:59:38 PM
I cannot give you the number, but it was started in the Bush 1 and before Clinton 1. The lawyer we had was the author of the VAERS act.

My father visited his senator asking why there was no movement on the case. The reply from the senator was full of four letter words about Hillary threatening him when she was the First Lady trying to deal with healthcare. The Senators who were no longer there who sponsored the bill stated to Forbes that they would have had the HHS in contempt if they could.

Seriously, after two years of no movement in the case we got an order of dismissal because there was no further update. Our lawyer had two government lawyers stripped of their ability to practice law because it was obvious from the filings that she had died and the lawyers were protesting that they were told to delay everything because the VAERS act had surplus cash that was to be stripped for other budget reasons.
 
2013-12-05 05:03:28 PM
Many years ago, but one of the senators Dad dealt with was from Long Island. The lawyer who helped write the act was from West Virginia. And after Bush I he was audited every year by the IRS.
 
2013-12-05 05:03:59 PM

hardinparamedic: tlars699: Do autistic subjects have a different density than non autistic subjects?

There is growing evidence that Autism is related to a structural defect in pre-frontal cortex neuronal density and number.

if that were the case, in fact, it would completely invalidate any claims about vaccinations and autism.


Holy crap!! This is awesome! Now, if only they could find a reason why this area experiences overgrowth in the first place.
Aspertame? That shiat tastes nasty- if we prove it, can we ban it?
 
2013-12-05 05:12:49 PM
Despite the fact that my first born was killed by the pertussis vaccination, I still support vaccinations. Just may nobody go through the heck that we did with our child, and the dealing with the government.
 
2013-12-05 06:05:40 PM
Pitabred:Not entirely sure why you think they should be spread out? Do you realize how many things you body comes into contact with daily, how many thousands of critters? A few more won't matter when your body sees over a thousand new antigens a day:  http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/toomany.html

I just don't think it's an awesome idea to pile on multiple things that can each individually cause fever and flu-y symptoms at the same time.  But I also understand why doctors and parents go ahead and do them in as few visits as possible.
 
2013-12-05 06:07:23 PM

exvaxman: I cannot give you the number, but it was started in the Bush 1 and before Clinton 1. The lawyer we had was the author of the VAERS act.


No offense dude, but if you were telling the truth, I find it VERY HARD to believe that you don't have any case materials on this with the VAERS report number - since a VAERS report is required to file a claim in the NVICP, it would be referenced on any case material - or can't link to any information other than random news outlets named.

Dude, if you're concern trolling here, that's a pretty slimy thing to do. If you're telling the truth, I'm sorry for you daughter being the 1:1,000,000 that it happened to, but we're being jerks because the way you're presenting what happened is the exact same tactic as the Anti-vaccine groups use to silence their critics.
 
2013-12-05 06:08:26 PM

Skirl Hutsenreiter: I just don't think it's an awesome idea to pile on multiple things that can each individually cause fever and flu-y symptoms at the same time.


The fever and flu symptoms are the outwards, systemic manifestations of your body producing an active immune reaction against the inoculation. Which is what it is supposed to do. You will never have any vaccine that works without these symptoms.
 
2013-12-05 06:10:56 PM

meintx2001: Better yet, if you can't take the vaccine stay away from everyone else.


THis is very practical, and a fair solution for people who, through no fault of their own, are too immunocompromised for vaccines. They must pay with social isolation!
/I hope your sarcasm detector is working
 
2013-12-05 06:20:20 PM

scubamage: Really? I hadn't heard that. HPV in men is weird because there is no actual test to determine if it is present, unless you have physical lesions (which of course only appear in strains which don't cause cancer, so that's a non-starter).


That sounds not at all true. In fact, it isn't! See the part on HPV DNA analysis.
 
2013-12-05 08:10:45 PM

hardinparamedic: Skirl Hutsenreiter: I just don't think it's an awesome idea to pile on multiple things that can each individually cause fever and flu-y symptoms at the same time.

The fever and flu symptoms are the outwards, systemic manifestations of your body producing an active immune reaction against the inoculation. Which is what it is supposed to do. You will never have any vaccine that works without these symptoms.


What? So none of the four shots they gave my eldest kid work at all? Well, that's just fantastic.

/your sources for this.
//Cite them.
 
2013-12-05 08:33:17 PM

hardinparamedic: exvaxman: I cannot give you the number, but it was started in the Bush 1 and before Clinton 1. The lawyer we had was the author of the VAERS act.

No offense dude, but if you were telling the truth, I find it VERY HARD to believe that you don't have any case materials on this with the VAERS report number - since a VAERS report is required to file a claim in the NVICP, it would be referenced on any case material - or can't link to any information other than random news outlets named.

Dude, if you're concern trolling here, that's a pretty slimy thing to do. If you're telling the truth, I'm sorry for you daughter being the 1:1,000,000 that it happened to, but we're being jerks because the way you're presenting what happened is the exact same tactic as the Anti-vaccine groups use to silence their critics.


His type of story is also touted as why everyone should be getting vaccinated, in general.

His other kid isn't vaccinated against pertussis(only, mind you), as his previous one died, true; it could be 1:1,000,000 only risk, or it could be that his family's risk is slightly elevated than average, due to some genetic anomaly/allergy for this particular shot.
For him the risk of death caused by the shot is too high. Which is why the kid needs to be helped via herd immunity for this type of disease.

He is not against vaccinations. He is for holding the scientific community accountable for the science it conducts, and ensure that the results are quality ones. Hence, the VAERS act coming into being int he first place.


http://www.stemedcoalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Sarewitz-T es timony.pdf

Responding from an article in the Economist issued Oct. 19th.
It talks about how scientific discoveries are getting questioned less frequently than they should in order for the science to be proven as a quality result.

You should never question the importance of vaccinations that do work with small risk, ie Polio.

You should question if a vaccine does or does not have small risk, and ensure that the results in either case are verified by an independent secondary, and third party.
 
2013-12-05 08:57:50 PM

tlars699: What? So none of the four shots they gave my eldest kid work at all? Well, that's just fantastic.


Despite the fact you didn't see them, he still had symptoms of a foreign antigen being introduced into his body. You're being pedantic for no reason at this point, as I HIGHLY believe you know what I was talking about when I said that.

tlars699: He is not against vaccinations. He is for holding the scientific community accountable for the science it conducts, and ensure that the results are quality ones. Hence, the VAERS act coming into being int he first place.


No, what he is doing is engaging in a well known tactic of Anti-vaccine concern trolling. The fact he cannot cite a VAERS case number, despite the fact it would literally be in the header of every court document from the NVICP hearings is pretty telling of this - as it would be very easy to bring up the anonymized details of the case with that number  To bring a case before the NVICP Court, there must be a VAERS report filed.

tlars699:
His other kid isn't vaccinated against pertussis(only, mind you), as his previous one died, true; it could be 1:1,000,000 only risk, or it could be that his family's risk is slightly elevated than average, due to some genetic anomaly/allergy for this particular shot.

And apparently, you're doing so as well.

Hannah Polling didn't have an adverse effect which harmed her, for example. She had an undiagnosed, underlying mitochondrial disorder and a concurrent infection going on at the time. It wasn't the vaccine which caused her injury directly, rather it raised her fever above the one she currently had (a contraindication to the vaccine administration in the first place). 

So yes. I am questioning his story, especially since he is shirking from us when we asked for any citations or evidence otherwise.

tlars699: You should question if a vaccine does or does not have small risk, and ensure that the results in either case are verified by an independent secondary, and third party.


TDaP, HPV, and others have a wealth of evidence available on their effectiveness and safety.

You're not being pro-safe vaccine. You're a thinly veiled anti-vaccine concern troll, and you're using another well known tactic to try to hide it.
 
2013-12-05 08:58:08 PM

IRQ12: Who heard of HPV before the vaccination came out?


HPV has been known about since at least the 70s. The vaccinations came out in the early 2000s, iirc.

Care to try again?
 
2013-12-05 09:03:59 PM

tlars699: He is not against vaccinations. He is for holding the scientific community accountable for the science it conducts, and ensure that the results are quality ones. Hence, the VAERS act coming into being int he first place.


FURTHERMORE.

The VAERS system is a poor way to conduct science in the first place, or to even track actual vaccine adverse reactions.

The evidence of this:

Vaccines caused the death of a person by blunt force trauma to the head.
A researcher was turned into the incredible hulk by a vaccine.

Or the fact that anti-vaccination and "pro-safe vaccine" advocates have been caught "creatively editing" and accessing personal, HIPAA-protected data in the VAERS database to support legal proceedings for their clients.
 
2013-12-05 09:45:42 PM
The VAERS case is over 24 years old at this point. I am not pulling out some old paperwork for an asshole who refuses to believe a story told multiple times on Fark. Consume feces and expire. May you never hold a child having a seizure the eventually leads to her heart giving out.

Vaccinate but realize there are consequences. May this never happen to any parent.
 
Displayed 50 of 216 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report