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(Opposing Views)   "Holt and his friends were dry-firing the gun at each other for fun earlier in the day." Hmmm, I wonder how this story ends   (opposingviews.com) divider line 417
    More: Florida, handguns, guns  
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7678 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Dec 2013 at 9:42 AM (38 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-05 12:31:26 PM

Secret Master of All Flatulence: eyeq360: Dry firing a gun will later lead to steam cleaning a carpet.  Odds are, Stanley Steamer will not be removing pee and poo from your carpet, but more likely blood and brain, with the occasional bits of bone and hair.

Accurate headshots are notoriously hard to make, especially on a moving target.


True.  But most of the gun accidents that I generally read of are of the "looking down a barrel of a weapon and pulls trigger by accident" or "points gun at head and assures everyone that it's unloaded before pulling trigger" kind.

Dimensio: eyeq360: Dry firing a gun will later lead to steam cleaning a carpet.  Odds are, Stanley Steamer will not be removing pee and poo from your carpet, but more likely blood and brain, with the occasional bits of bone and hair.

Are you not aware of what a human body typically releases upon death?


Pee and poo.
I was being snarky and saying that improper gun safety may lead to a bloody death and not being scared shiatless.
 
2013-12-05 12:34:23 PM

Secret Master of All Flatulence: This is something that always amused/confused me.  An awful lot of the pro gun-control people generally support abortion on demand and assisted suicide.  An awful lot of the anti gun-control people oppose abortion and assisted suicide.  Does neither subset of those groups see the contradiction?


I'm pro gun rights, abortion rights, and...though squeamish, pro assisted suicide (though serious efforts must be made to prevent abuse).  But yeah, the disparity/inconsistency strikes me as odd.
 
2013-12-05 12:34:55 PM

R.A.Danny: Doc Daneeka: The word has lost all meaning.

I generally ignore your posts as well. You really don't bring anything to the table that reasonable people can use.


"Reasonable people" = people that agree with your position?

I believe there should be stronger gun control laws in the US.  That's a matter of opinion.  Having a sincere opinion doesn't make one a troll, not does that fact that others disagree.
 
2013-12-05 12:35:44 PM

CasperImproved: Two friends playing with a third friend's gun (owner at fault for allowing).

After friends play with gun, they did not observe owner load same gun, then put it back on the table. (owners fault).

Two friends play with the loaded gun with assumable results (owners fault).

Were the two friends stupid? Yes.

But who was criminally negligent and ultimately responsible for this tragedy?


The idiot who pointed the gun and pulled the trigger. She broke every rule of gun safety. It is all on her.
 
2013-12-05 12:38:03 PM

imfallen_angel: Anyways... you appear to miss my point anyways and I have better things to do.


I sure hope so, because "not making sense on the internet" is a pretty pointless hobby.
 
2013-12-05 12:39:48 PM
Came for the Steve Holt reference. Leaving satisfied.
 
2013-12-05 12:40:44 PM

Smidge204: Secret Master of All Flatulence: Just like there's no attempt to try to identify criminals and morons before they're allowed to vote.

Fun fact: Over 5 million US citizens do not have the right to vote because of their criminal record, or because they are currently in jail on a felony conviction.

That's a great example you provided, but probably not for the reason you thought it was.
=Smidge=


Now we just need to take away the right to vote from the morons like yourself.
 
2013-12-05 12:42:19 PM

jst3p: imfallen_angel: Anyways... you appear to miss my point anyways and I have better things to do.

I sure hope so, because "not making sense on the internet" is a pretty pointless hobby.


Yet is seems to be one of Fark's favorite pastimes.
 
2013-12-05 12:42:26 PM
/headdesk
*reads article*
/headdesk /headdesk /headdesk /headdesk /headdesk /headdesk /headdesk
 
2013-12-05 12:43:22 PM

stevarooni: Carn: Mandatory gun training, not in school, use the classes provided by the NRA but in addition, you must pass a written test and as well as a safety test on a range.  If you want to do like for driver's ed and have an after school class for kids who are 18 I'm fine with that.  You should have to retake both every 5 years (I feel you should have to do the same for driving).  We should have a no gun list which doctors should be required to add people to if they've been diagnosed with any serious psychotic disorder, in addition to felons, and when signing up for these tests would be a good time to check a person against this list.  That would be a start.  In addition I would be in favor of either an insurance requirement and/or much more severe penalties for people who are responsible for this kind of negligence.

Ah, you're talking about to own a gun...I think that mandatory safety training (with optional firearms practical), in-school, should be a requirement for graduation.  But just the one time; just as people aren't required to take a poll test to exercise their right to vote.  A list of felons and involuntarily committed/deemed incompetent folks already exists for background checks, though unfortunately it isn't as regularly updated by all states as it ought to be (Virginia improved their reporting after the VTech murders).

Insurance requirements are kind of silly.  Most car insurance carriers will refuse to cover damage caused by the car in the knowing commission of a crime.  The penalties for negligence like this are pretty severe, if they're enforced.  In this case, for some reason the cops seem to think that this idiot isn't responsible for her own actions.  Usually it takes a judge to assign mental incompetence, and a caretaker would be assigned, but apparently that's not the case here.  :-P


Of course - I don't like the idea of mandatory safety training for all, because some people don't want anything to do with guns and that's their right too.  I would add in licensing too but I know that really ruffles the feathers of a lot of people.  A compromise could be a renewable safety certification like I mentioned that you are mandated (although not enforced) to have.  Then if you are found guilty of some kind of negligence like the person in this article, you get triple the penalty if you do not have a current certification.  That might be a way at least to cut back on these kinds of "accidents".
 
2013-12-05 12:43:44 PM

Frank N Stein: Come at me bro.

[img.fark.net image 775x945]


Do you plan on throwing those bullets at people?
 
2013-12-05 12:43:55 PM
So farkers. Santa bringing anything boomstick related for Christmas? I'm probably just getting some ammo and such. Last year though, my old man gave me his old Winchester 94 that he won in a card game in the 70s. It's a lever action gun, so he wrapped it up and hid it in the corner like A Christmas Story.
 
2013-12-05 12:46:14 PM

Frank N Stein: So farkers. Santa bringing anything boomstick related for Christmas? I'm probably just getting some ammo and such. Last year though, my old man gave me his old Winchester 94 that he won in a card game in the 70s. It's a lever action gun, so he wrapped it up and hid it in the corner like A Christmas Story.


Hopefully getting my FNS .40 back from the gunsmith by Christmas.
Am giving a Mini-14 to the In-laws.
 
2013-12-05 12:47:16 PM
topcon:
Your kids would have to be pretty stupid to confuse a water gun and a real gun.

Why are you assuming those kids aren't pretty stupid? Lots of stupid people out there.
 
2013-12-05 12:47:31 PM
umad:  Now we just need to take away the right to vote from the morons like yourself.

It used to be that almost all states prohibited convicted felons from voting.  IIRC, only 9 states still do that.  Unfortunately, "convicted felons" apparently constitute a "core constituency" of one political party...
 
2013-12-05 12:48:55 PM
Meh, it sucks for the kids involved, but I'm not getting the third party outrage and bloodlust here. They did something risky but consensual and lost a life. No different than other risky behaviours.

There's about 15,000 HIV deaths a year, and 50,000 new HIV diagnoses (cdc data). Most of them, presumably were consensual but highly risky behaviour. Despite all the warning and public service messages about safe practices available. Let's start charging the partner of any HIV diagnosis with attempted homocide (and homocide if it results in death). Or not. Your choice. But at least let's not have a double standard for cases like this which cause a relative tiny 500 deaths a year. (In other words, politicizing your pretend concern outrage is moronic).
 
2013-12-05 12:51:14 PM

Carn: Of course - I don't like the idea of mandatory safety training for all, because some people don't want anything to do with guns and that's their right too.


Eh, I'd prefer that the safety training be mandatory for all.  You don't even have to touch a gun, you're not learning marksmanship, you're just learning how to keep upwind of a bullet.  If you want a religious exemption from the class, with a written note from your parents, sure.

Carn: A compromise could be a renewable safety certification like I mentioned that you are mandated (although not enforced) to have. Then if you are found guilty of some kind of negligence like the person in this article, you get triple the penalty if you do not have a current certification. That might be a way at least to cut back on these kinds of "accidents".


Not much of a compromise; you'll have a list of people who should know better, and a much much larger population of people who haven't sat through the same class for the 4th decade in a row.  It's not a huge burden, compared with some licensing and registration, but I hold that it wouldn't make a difference.  The real idiots, like the ones in the article, "know better" and they're too smart to possibly aim a loaded weapon at someone else, until it happens.
 
2013-12-05 12:52:42 PM

Frank N Stein: So farkers. Santa bringing anything boomstick related for Christmas? I'm probably just getting some ammo and such. Last year though, my old man gave me his old Winchester 94 that he won in a card game in the 70s. It's a lever action gun, so he wrapped it up and hid it in the corner like A Christmas Story.


Nope, we generally do that for birthdays for the kids.  Case in point:  My oldest's 6th birthday present, a "pink and sparkly purple" My Little Pony-themed AR-15:

i135.photobucket.com
 
2013-12-05 12:53:02 PM

HeadLever: No one that I know is resistant to the idea of keeping violent criminals from guns.


Then why the hell does the NRA and whatnot oppose universal background checks? They're fighting to keep the loopholes that allow violent criminals to walk into a gun show and just randomly buy a gun in a private sale open.

When I see gun nuts on fark and elsewhere fighting even such a simple, commonsense thing as "making sure convicted felons aren't able to buy guns without a background check determining that they are, in fact, convicted violent felons", I really question the sincerity of comments like yours. You may say that you oppose letting violent criminals get guns, but your crowd is fighting for policies that allow violent criminals to do just that.
 
2013-12-05 12:54:47 PM

Quantum Apostrophe: But overall, having a gun in the house makes you safer. Sure, once in a while there are tragic unavoidable accidents like these, but nothing's perfect.


Keyboard. Monitor.
 
2013-12-05 12:55:03 PM

jst3p: imfallen_angel: Anyways... you appear to miss my point anyways and I have better things to do.

I sure hope so, because "not making sense on the internet" is a pretty pointless hobby.


Well, whenever someone will dedicate time to chart "stupid things people do" in relation to internet activity, we'll have a better perspective... but at this point, go back to your cinnamon, salt and ice, and other challenges, choking game, flaming basketball, cage raging, car surfing, dry ice bombs..etc...
 
2013-12-05 12:55:50 PM

luniz5monody: Am giving a Mini-14 to the In-laws.


I hate mine, too, but that's farking cruel.
 
2013-12-05 12:56:26 PM
(forgot to mention" just like your grand-pappy used to do"....)
 
2013-12-05 12:56:39 PM

Secret Master of All Flatulence: This is something that always amused/confused me.  An awful lot of the pro gun-control people generally support abortion on demand and assisted suicide.  An awful lot of the anti gun-control people oppose abortion and assisted suicide.  Does neither subset of those groups see the contradiction?


It's only a contradiction if you're to stupid to see nuance.
 
2013-12-05 12:56:46 PM

cptjeff: Then why the hell does the NRA and whatnot oppose universal background checks? They're fighting to keep the loopholes that allow violent criminals to walk into a gun show and just randomly buy a gun in a private sale open.


They fought against the part where the checks were going to be used as de facto registration. The original legislation didn't have that, and was backed by the NRA.
 
2013-12-05 12:57:39 PM

cptjeff: Then why the hell does the NRA and whatnot oppose universal background checks?


You will have to ask them.  The last piece of legislation that went around with that required the background check to include the make, model and S/N of the firearm as well, which is ancillary to the intent of a background check.  This creates privacy and registry concerns.

If you want to do a background check, keep it only to the information that is required to perform said check and keep the rest of it out.
 
2013-12-05 12:58:27 PM
i didn't realize you could get out of murder if the victim's family didn't press charges. I've seen articles about people killing people in self defense and it still being a murder case of some sort.
Shouldn't the owner of the gun here be charged with something at least? Like not having his weapon secured properly or something.
I'd also like to know why the hell they decided to load the gun after it being empty apparently all day, what were they planning to do with it?
 
2013-12-05 12:58:47 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: luniz5monody: Am giving a Mini-14 to the In-laws.

I hate mine, too, but that's farking cruel.


I own 1 from every series starting with 181. The improvements made to them since 580 has been amazing.
This will be their first firearm.

But I lol'd at the comment. Well played.
 
2013-12-05 12:59:13 PM

basemetal: That's what they get for dry firing a gun.

/DNRTFA


We dry fire guns all the time, at targets.

Rule #1 fail by him, his friends, and girlfriend: Always keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

This is why I keep the bolts out of my rifles and the strikers out of my pistols when stored as well.

/safety first
 
2013-12-05 12:59:31 PM

cptjeff: Then why the hell does the NRA and whatnot oppose universal background checks? They're fighting to keep the loopholes that allow violent criminals to walk into a gun show and just randomly buy a gun in a private sale open.


Why go to a gun show when you can just find some dude on the street who will sell to you, no questions asked...which would also occur if background checks were mandated by the law?
 
2013-12-05 12:59:33 PM
I do not like guns, which is why what I am about to say rankles me, despite my coming to the logical conclusion that it's the only way to handle this situation in America:

Everyone in this country should be required to go through basic firearm training as part of their early education.

We don't need to use live weapons for this training. We just need to make sure that EVERYONE understands the rules of firearms. We need to make sure that EVERYONE is trained to handle one in the most basic sense so that they will at least know NOT to point it at someone they don't want to kill, NOT to put their finger on the trigger until they're ready to kill, NOT to assume a gun isn't loaded, etc.

It should be something we all learn-- even if it's just a classroom, on-paper, watch some safety films sort of learning-- before we stumble upon a firearm, which can happen at any time in a person's life. And if they don't know the safety rules-- and they're too damned dumb to figure them out themselves in that moment-- they'll have a better chance of NOT killing the rest of us accidentally if they've had these classes.

I do not want to use guns. I honestly don't think anyone who is sane should find any joy in holding the power of instant death in their hands, and I certainly don't trust anyone of the human race with that power... But they're an evil that we have to live with, and if we have to live with them, we should at least all know the risks, rules, and proper handling of such things.

That said, I am still kind of hoping that some day I can move to a country with stricter gun laws and better health care for all. I honestly don't understand the logic of a country that makes guns so readily available, and yet doesn't provide universal health care to those same people who are inevitably going to end up shooting each other. It's like the American government wants  Americans to thin their own herds.
 
2013-12-05 01:00:23 PM

cptjeff: Then why the hell does the NRA and whatnot oppose universal background checks?


It's extremely simple:  It's to prevent a backdoor "Universal Gun Registry".  Gun registration is a necessary precursor to gun confiscation. And before you say "that's never happened!" look at California's SKS Registry, and what New York is doing now with their post Sandy Hook" idiocy.  Gun owners have been screwed over and over again by the anti gunners, who say one thing, and then push laws that do something else entirely.  That's what lead to the whole "no more compromise" bit on the part of so many gun owners.  Gun Control advocates generally follow the principle of "slowly boiling the frog", but their general goal is to ban all guns, period.  That's why they're pushing the "assault weapons ban" stupidity, when the guns in question are generally used in something like 1/2 of 1 percent of crimes involving guns.  It's an attempt to condition people to the idea of taking away all guns, period.
 
2013-12-05 01:00:26 PM

Secret Master of All Flatulence: Frank N Stein: So farkers. Santa bringing anything boomstick related for Christmas? I'm probably just getting some ammo and such. Last year though, my old man gave me his old Winchester 94 that he won in a card game in the 70s. It's a lever action gun, so he wrapped it up and hid it in the corner like A Christmas Story.

Nope, we generally do that for birthdays for the kids.  Case in point:  My oldest's 6th birthday present, a "pink and sparkly purple" My Little Pony-themed AR-15:

[i135.photobucket.com image 717x269]


That's either a very detailed replica or you had the flash suppressor painted orange... why exactly?
 
2013-12-05 01:01:13 PM

Frank N Stein: So farkers. Santa bringing anything boomstick related for Christmas?


Santa brought me one of these for Black Friday on sale for $550:
Adams Arms AR-15 Piston Upper Receiver

Well, maybe not Santa.  Who is the patron saint of BlackFridayThanksgivinnukah?  It was that guy.  It's going on a Colt A2 lower that has a SlideFire stock and a LMG Heavy Barrel upper already.
 
2013-12-05 01:01:27 PM

ZeroCorpse: That said, I am still kind of hoping that some day I can move to a country with stricter gun laws and better health care for all.


Well, bye.
 
2013-12-05 01:01:34 PM

ButtercupKitteh: i didn't realize you could get out of murder if the victim's family didn't press charges. I've seen articles about people killing people in self defense and it still being a murder case of some sort.
Shouldn't the owner of the gun here be charged with something at least? Like not having his weapon secured properly or something.
I'd also like to know why the hell they decided to load the gun after it being empty apparently all day, what were they planning to do with it?


I'm guessing they're all minors, so they applied the law a bit more loosely in this case.

Also, it's Florida, where it's legal to shoot someone if they scare you a little.
 
2013-12-05 01:02:29 PM
I also handle all people as if they are loaded.
 
2013-12-05 01:03:20 PM

R.A.Danny: They fought against the part where the checks were going to be used as de facto registration.


So farking what? The farking Founders did it with arms (Return of the Militia).
 
2013-12-05 01:03:48 PM

R.A.Danny: ZeroCorpse: That said, I am still kind of hoping that some day I can move to a country with stricter gun laws and better health care for all.

Well, bye.


Sure. Ignore the stuff that I wrote that serves your agenda, and focus on the personal side of it... And then you wonder why people don't speak in favor of your side more often?

See if I speak logically in your favor again, jerk.
 
2013-12-05 01:04:42 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: R.A.Danny: They fought against the part where the checks were going to be used as de facto registration.

So farking what? The farking Founders did it with arms (Return of the Militia).


This crap again? Bah blah SCOTUS blah blah Miller ruling BLAH BLAH BLAH
 
2013-12-05 01:05:18 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: R.A.Danny: They fought against the part where the checks were going to be used as de facto registration.

So farking what? The farking Founders did it with arms (Return of the Militia).


Registration is step one of Confiscation.
 
2013-12-05 01:05:19 PM

ButtercupKitteh: i didn't realize you could get out of murder if the victim's family didn't press charges. I've seen articles about people killing people in self defense and it still being a murder case of some sort.
Shouldn't the owner of the gun here be charged with something at least? Like not having his weapon secured properly or something.
I'd also like to know why the hell they decided to load the gun after it being empty apparently all day, what were they planning to do with it?


I am wondering if the gun owner typically keeps it loaded, but unloaded it after the girl kept going on about wanting to play with it.  He may have reloaded it after they left because he didn't realize they were coming back, and he wasn't in the room when she decided to resume the dry-fire game.  Sad he lost his friends, but with her logic, it is for the best.

/unless the two surviving start dating real soon, and then I would agree they press charges then.
 
2013-12-05 01:05:28 PM
DrewCurtisJr:

BR549:They should ALL be arrested......unfortunately, stupidity is not a crime.


"Doing something so stupid and reckless that it kills somebody is a crime."


Of course it is.  Obviously the assclown who owned the gun and put the bullets in it and the byotch who pulled the trigger should be charged.  What I was refering to was the other gerbil heads that were "dry firing" the gun before the bullets were inserted deserve to be charged as well.  However, the stupidity of THEIR actions did not result in the death of the victim, so in that case stupidity is not a crime.
 
2013-12-05 01:05:35 PM

ZeroCorpse: See if I speak logically in your favor again, jerk.

There you go.

 
2013-12-05 01:06:08 PM
Stupid farks, playing stupid games, winning stupid prizes!
 
2013-12-05 01:06:42 PM

ChaosStar: That's either a very detailed replica or you had the flash suppressor painted orange... why exactly?


It's not painted, it's powdercoated, and I did it because it's legal and points out some particularly dangerous stupidity in the Federal Statutes.  Don't worry.  It simply screws off, isn't normally kept on the gun, and it's never on the gun when it's being fired, since powdercoating is heat-based, and it'd damage the finish on the flash supressor if it was on it when it was fired.

FTR:  Any moron can go into almost any drug store and buy a jar of blaze orange fingernail polish for something like $5 and paint the muzzle of a real gun blaze orange.  It's not even illegal, at least where I am.  You simply cannot assume that something that looks like a gun is actually a toy because the last 6mm of the barrel is blaze orange.  In fact, it's dangerous as hell to do so, as that picture demonstrates.
 
2013-12-05 01:07:03 PM

Secret Master of All Flatulence: cptjeff: Then why the hell does the NRA and whatnot oppose universal background checks?

It's extremely simple:  It's to prevent a backdoor "Universal Gun Registry".  Gun registration is a necessary precursor to gun confiscation. And before you say "that's never happened!" look at California's SKS Registry, and what New York is doing now with their post Sandy Hook" idiocy.  Gun owners have been screwed over and over again by the anti gunners, who say one thing, and then push laws that do something else entirely.  That's what lead to the whole "no more compromise" bit on the part of so many gun owners.  Gun Control advocates generally follow the principle of "slowly boiling the frog", but their general goal is to ban all guns, period.  That's why they're pushing the "assault weapons ban" stupidity, when the guns in question are generally used in something like 1/2 of 1 percent of crimes involving guns.  It's an attempt to condition people to the idea of taking away all guns, period.


To say nothing of the lack of enforcement.
If John Smith wants to buy a gun from Bob Doe in a Walmart parking lot, how exactly do you stop them from doing it without a back ground check?
Even if you find a magical solution for this issue, what system do they use to perform said background check? The NICS system is not an option for non-FFL's.
 
2013-12-05 01:07:23 PM

metatronarchetype: demaL-demaL-yeH: R.A.Danny: They fought against the part where the checks were going to be used as de facto registration.

So farking what? The farking Founders did it with arms (Return of the Militia).

Registration is step one of Confiscation.


Like the government couldn't do that now if it wanted to.
 
2013-12-05 01:09:14 PM

Hung Like A Tic-Tac: Like the government couldn't do that now if it wanted to.


It could try, but without a nice little list to go by, it woudn't get too many of them.
 
2013-12-05 01:10:03 PM

Secret Master of All Flatulence: ChaosStar: That's either a very detailed replica or you had the flash suppressor painted orange... why exactly?

It's not painted, it's powdercoated, and I did it because it's legal and points out some particularly dangerous stupidity in the Federal Statutes.  Don't worry.  It simply screws off, isn't normally kept on the gun, and it's never on the gun when it's being fired, since powdercoating is heat-based, and it'd damage the finish on the flash supressor if it was on it when it was fired.

FTR:  Any moron can go into almost any drug store and buy a jar of blaze orange fingernail polish for something like $5 and paint the muzzle of a real gun blaze orange.  It's not even illegal, at least where I am.  You simply cannot assume that something that looks like a gun is actually a toy because the last 6mm of the barrel is blaze orange.  In fact, it's dangerous as hell to do so, as that picture demonstrates.


That was my concern. I'm very happy you already addressed it.
/I hope she enjoys it
 
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