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(American Thinker)   Poorly-paid interns at Mother Jones are told to get food stamps, proving that welfare is a subsidy for liberal media, while poorly-paid interns elsewhere are encouraged to get a second job, proving conservatives are job creators   (americanthinker.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, Mother Jones, food stamps, liberal media, subsidies, Wade Rathke, welfare, minimum wage law, Alinsky  
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860 clicks; posted to Politics » on 05 Dec 2013 at 8:53 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-05 08:31:37 AM  
The hippy-fueled magazine Mother Jones that helped torpedo Mitt Romney's campaign

The GOP torpedoed Mitt Romney campaign.  Anyone who was reading Mother Jones wasn't going to vote for him, ever.
 
2013-12-05 08:41:36 AM  
The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.
 
2013-12-05 08:44:59 AM  

EvilEgg: The hippy-fueled magazine Mother Jones that helped torpedo Mitt Romney's campaign

The GOP torpedoed Mitt Romney campaign.  Anyone who was reading Mother Jones wasn't going to vote for him, ever.


shhh, don't ruin their blame game. It's always the evil libby libs that torpedo their efforts at freedom-loving freedom to love thy freedom patriots with eagle tears and Jesus (and not that terrible Allan dude) for all
 
2013-12-05 08:50:34 AM  
It's always nice to be reminded that simply saying, "Get a job," or pontificating on how  you'd go about fixing the economy if you were President is a form of job creation. Hell, with this logic I became an inventor yesterday when I said, "They really should sell breakfast sandwiches that use Eggos instead of bread."
 
2013-12-05 08:52:31 AM  
Ok, so what I'm taking away from this article is that Mother Jones is mean because their interns - (unpaid volunteers, for those who STILL don't know what the word "internship" means) are using food stamps to subsidize their "radical transformation of American society."

On the other hand, it's perfectly fine for companies like WalMart and McDonalds to use food stamps to compensate for the shiat wages they pay.
 
2013-12-05 08:58:15 AM  
FTFA:when community organizer Wade Rathke landed a job at ACORN's parent nonprofit group, he discovered that the National Welfare Rights Organization had no intention of paying him for his work.

I would wager that people believed in ACORN's mission and were therefore willing to donate their time to it.  No one except the Waltons believe in Wal-Mart's mission, and even they don't do it for free.
 
2013-12-05 08:59:00 AM  
I love that "hippie" can still - unironically - be used as a derogatory term by some people.
 
2013-12-05 09:00:24 AM  
What the heck is latte liberalism? All the people I know who drink latte are a bunch of stuffed-shirt conservatives from the suburbs who think that Starbucks is a lifestyle.
 
2013-12-05 09:04:10 AM  

skozlaw: What the heck is latte liberalism? All the people I know who drink latte are a bunch of stuffed-shirt conservatives from the suburbs who think that Starbucks is a lifestyle.


i64.photobucket.com
 
2013-12-05 09:04:59 AM  
A: Internships suck. THey should be illegal, especially the ones where all that you do is turn into a gofer. I've also seen internships that don't allow you to have a second job. It's a bullshiat practice and needs to go away.

B: That said, although Subby's excellent article makes it sound like American Stinker brought up the existence of internships on the Right, they did no such thing, just went on and on, implying the whole time that only Leftist organizations have such things. So fark American Stinker, the Right has interns in the same percentage, and they don't pay their farking interns either, so AT can eat a dick.
 
2013-12-05 09:05:56 AM  

NutWrench: Ok, so what I'm taking away from this article is that Mother Jones is mean because their interns - (unpaid volunteers, for those who STILL don't know what the word "internship" means) are using food stamps to subsidize their "radical transformation of American society."

On the other hand, it's perfectly fine for companies like WalMart and McDonalds to use food stamps to compensate for the shiat wages they pay.


That's some fine cognitive dissonance-ing there, Lou.

I'm sure the editor at MJ was thinking the same thing when he stopped at the intern's desk and dropped off the food stamps application and the writing assignment about WalMart employees on food stamps at the same time.
 
2013-12-05 09:07:37 AM  

skozlaw: What the heck is latte liberalism? All the people I know who drink latte are a bunch of stuffed-shirt conservatives from the suburbs who think that Starbucks is a lifestyle.


Yuppy scum are never going to go extinct are they?
 
2013-12-05 09:09:39 AM  

BMFPitt: NutWrench: Ok, so what I'm taking away from this article is that Mother Jones is mean because their interns - (unpaid volunteers, for those who STILL don't know what the word "internship" means) are using food stamps to subsidize their "radical transformation of American society."

On the other hand, it's perfectly fine for companies like WalMart and McDonalds to use food stamps to compensate for the shiat wages they pay.

That's some fine cognitive dissonance-ing there, Lou.

I'm sure the editor at MJ was thinking the same thing when he stopped at the intern's desk and dropped off the food stamps application and the writing assignment about WalMart employees on food stamps at the same time.


You're doing it wrong. You're not supposed to include the part you deliberately ignored in the quotation.

I live with my mom
 
2013-12-05 09:12:26 AM  
Thank you, conservatives, for making your craziness so easy to spot, and therefore easy to ignore.

Two paragraphs in, I've already seen

-"hippy" (sic)
-"radical"
-"George Soros-funded"
-"Romney's ill-received 47 percent comments "
-"latte liberalism"

Skimming the next couple paragraphs, I see "ACORN" at least a half dozen times...oh, and this!

The very notion of using food stamps to subsidize attempts to smash the eeevil capitalist system would have sent tingles of joy up the spines of Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin.

bevwere.files.wordpress.com

/RIP Mermaid Man :'(
 
2013-12-05 09:14:01 AM  
Unpaid internships are pure bullshiat and they need to go the fark away.
 
2013-12-05 09:15:59 AM  

EvilEgg: The hippy-fueled magazine Mother Jones that helped torpedo Mitt Romney's campaign

The GOP torpedoed Mitt Romney campaign.  Anyone who was reading Mother Jones wasn't going to vote for him, ever.


MJ, I believe, were the first to publish/publicize video of the infamous "47%" speech, which torpedoed the otherwise-flawless campaign of MIttens the Daring Cat.

You know, because what a presidential candidate says behind closed doors to his richest donors has no bearing on his desire to represent more than just the supposed 47% percent who pay taxes, and we should all just thank our betters for deigning to drop a few Washingtons out of the executive suite into the Treasury every now and again lest our country collapse into a Grecian nightmare of tax evasion and graft.
 
2013-12-05 09:16:21 AM  

skozlaw: What the heck is latte liberalism? All the people I know who drink latte are a bunch of stuffed-shirt conservatives from the suburbs who think that Starbucks is a lifestyle.


Sssshhhhh - we're trying to maintain a stereotype here!
 
2013-12-05 09:17:11 AM  
Wait, it wasn't long ago we all making fun of english/creative writing/communications majors who were working for free at Gawker, Conde Nast, NY Times, so now we have to feel sorry for them?
 
2013-12-05 09:18:21 AM  
Old Mother Jones -  And her socialist crew - Took away - From me and you - I hope she goes far away - She better go far away
 
2013-12-05 09:20:47 AM  

Wooly Bully: You're doing it wrong. You're not supposed to include the part you deliberately ignored in the quotation.


If by "ignoring," you mean pointing out.
 
2013-12-05 09:21:23 AM  

NutWrench: Ok, so what I'm taking away from this article is that Mother Jones is mean because their interns - (unpaid volunteers, for those who STILL don't know what the word "internship" means) are using food stamps to subsidize their "radical transformation of American society."

On the other hand, it's perfectly fine for companies like WalMart and McDonalds to use food stamps to compensate for the shiat wages they pay.



in this case please note
subsidizing your masters is ok

subsidizing someone complaining about your masters is not
 
2013-12-05 09:23:15 AM  
Can we just agree that most businesses in 2013, run by both "liberal" and "conservative" executives, are just cockbags?
 
2013-12-05 09:23:39 AM  
Why is everyone assuming that the interns are unpaid? Other articles are showing that they receive a $1000/month stipend. Which, in San Francisco, is practically unpaid, but perhaps the argument should be about why Mother Jones is paying their editorial interns so little.They'll be bumping that to $1500/month, which is barely above the minimum wage in California, but still not enough.
 
2013-12-05 09:24:03 AM  

BMFPitt: Wooly Bully: You're doing it wrong. You're not supposed to include the part you deliberately ignored in the quotation.

If by "ignoring," you mean pointing out.


I mean that a skilled troll - which you may some day become if you listen to advice - maintains the illusion that a good point they're ignoring was never made. This has the effect of being extra annoying, which is the whole point of trolling, you see. That illusion is destroyed when you quote the statement you're ignoring.

You're welcome.
 
2013-12-05 09:24:56 AM  

quatchi: Unpaid internships are pure bullshiat and they need to go the fark away.


I thought they were already ruled illegal by some court.
 
2013-12-05 09:25:57 AM  
By and large, internships are nothing more than modern day slavery.  No person, who is not currently in school, should be working for free as an "intern" and those companies that hire them, with the consideration for their work being experience, are engaging in illegal employment practices.

the whole internship system needs to be blown up.
 
2013-12-05 09:26:20 AM  
So do as I say and not as I do?
 
2013-12-05 09:26:59 AM  
Heh - not only too stupid to troll properly, but too stupid to realize he has self-pwned when it's POINTED OUT TO HIM.
Now that's some common clay of the New West, right there.
i18.photobucket.com
 
2013-12-05 09:28:25 AM  

sprgrss: By and large, internships are nothing more than modern day slavery.


"Voluntary servitude", but yeah.

// slaves couldn't quit or sue if the boss stared at their ass too long
// slaves also didn't interview or send in a resume for the position
 
2013-12-05 09:40:42 AM  
poorly-paid interns elsewhere are encouraged to get a second job, proving conservatives are job slave creators.


i think a 3rd job would be even better.   certainly for the richest 2% any way.   the more blood and sweat the Owners can squeeze out of the dumb american turnip, the better.
 
2013-12-05 09:50:30 AM  

sprgrss: By and large, internships are nothing more than modern day slavery.  No person, who is not currently in school, should be working for free as an "intern" and those companies that hire them, with the consideration for their work being experience, are engaging in illegal employment practices.

the whole internship system needs to be blown up.


You apparently know quite little about slavery.
 
2013-12-05 09:53:11 AM  
And conservatives have Google on their side.

Google Funding a Slew of Right-Wing Groups

American Conservative Union
Americans for Tax Reform
CATO Institute
Federalist Society
George Mason University Law School Law and Economics Center
Heritage Action
Mercatus Center
National Taxpayers Union
R Street Institute
Texas Public Policy Foundation
 
2013-12-05 09:55:08 AM  

Mikey1969: A: Internships suck. THey should be illegal, especially the ones where all that you do is turn into a gofer. I've also seen internships that don't allow you to have a second job. It's a bullshiat practice and needs to go away.


Meh, not always.  I interned at a major company this summer, and I liked it.  I was paid very well, did real work, AND walked away with a full-time offer at the end for when I finish school.  Not a bad deal overall.

That said, I know there's plenty of employers where internships are borderline abusive/slavery.  There's a real value to GOOD internships, though, so I would say that they need to be much more tightly regulated rather than done away with entirely.
 
2013-12-05 09:55:26 AM  

INeedAName: sprgrss: By and large, internships are nothing more than modern day slavery.  No person, who is not currently in school, should be working for free as an "intern" and those companies that hire them, with the consideration for their work being experience, are engaging in illegal employment practices.

the whole internship system needs to be blown up.

You apparently know quite little about slavery.


The idea that it's voluntary suggests that there's some sort of alternative to not getting paid as a precondition to getting paid in the future.

//Every company with more than 50 employees should be mandated to have 10% paid with 2 or fewer years of experience.  No joke.
 
2013-12-05 09:55:51 AM  

EvilEgg: The hippy-fueled magazine Mother Jones that helped torpedo Mitt Romney's campaign

The GOP torpedoed Mitt Romney campaign.  Anyone who was reading Mother Jones wasn't going to vote for him, ever.


So are they saying that hippies are not only still relevant, but are powerful enough to sabotage an otherwise strong presidential campaign?
 
2013-12-05 09:56:37 AM  
one time anecdote
no reference - long time ago

it was once thought that if the masses but had the chance
of a decent life
what wonders we would see

didnt happen - doesnt matter
now we return to normal
 
2013-12-05 09:56:57 AM  

EvilEgg: The hippy-fueled magazine Mother Jones that helped torpedo Mitt Romney's campaign

The GOP torpedoed Mitt Romney campaign.  Anyone who was reading Mother Jones wasn't going to vote for him, ever.


One thing I really hate about media is how up its own ass it tends to be. No just because I read something online or in a magazine or a newspaper doesn't mean I believe it or otherwise internalize what you're spewing at me.

And with that said "this" about the MJ readership and how inevitable Romney's defeat really was.
 
2013-12-05 09:58:48 AM  

Bareefer Obonghit: It's always nice to be reminded that simply saying, "Get a job," or pontificating on how  you'd go about fixing the economy if you were President is a form of job creation. Hell, with this logic I became an inventor yesterday when I said, "They really should sell breakfast sandwiches that use Eggos instead of bread."


shutupandtakemymoney.gif
 
2013-12-05 09:59:44 AM  
How does encouraging someone to get a second job create more jobs?

Jobs at job-search websites?
 
2013-12-05 09:59:57 AM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Why is everyone assuming that the interns are unpaid? Other articles are showing that they receive a $1000/month stipend. Which, in San Francisco, is practically unpaid, but perhaps the argument should be about why Mother Jones is paying their editorial interns so little.They'll be bumping that to $1500/month, which is barely above the minimum wage in California, but still not enough.


Intern ships are a very tricky thing, but I believe they can be useful, even unpaid ones, in the right industry. Journalism is one of those industries. You do a lot of copywriting biatch work, but it's a way to make connections and get those first bylines, and an internship at a major publication can be the inroads you need into a job. I had a nearly unpaid internship in San Francisco at a computer magazine (they gave me low freelance rates, about $400/month), but it actually WAS valuable to my career.

The problem with unpaid internships is when they're used for little more than clerks and there is no intention to give them a valuable experience related to the field they want to get into. It's also not something taken for long-term, or even something usually taken when you're out of college. My internship was between junior and senior years. Internships can be abused, but they can also be really useful.
 
2013-12-05 10:07:41 AM  
American Thinker v. Mother Jones.

Not since Bud v. Bud Lite have the stakes been so high.
 
2013-12-05 10:08:01 AM  

HMS_Blinkin: Mikey1969: A: Internships suck. THey should be illegal, especially the ones where all that you do is turn into a gofer. I've also seen internships that don't allow you to have a second job. It's a bullshiat practice and needs to go away.

Meh, not always.  I interned at a major company this summer, and I liked it.  I was paid very well, did real work, AND walked away with a full-time offer at the end for when I finish school.  Not a bad deal overall.

That said, I know there's plenty of employers where internships are borderline abusive/slavery.  There's a real value to GOOD internships, though, so I would say that they need to be much more tightly regulated rather than done away with entirely.


Yeah, i realized I left out the word "unpaid" before internships. I know that there are good stories, but they're the majority. i still should have mentioned that they DO exist... I just think that the bad outweighs the good by SO far that they serve no purpose. If someone wants to hire someone fresh out of college to get experience in the field, they can hire them like a normal employee , IMHO. But yeah, the worst one I heard was a girl who was interning on a teaching degree, and however the thing was set up, she couldn't work a second job the entire time, and it would also be an unpaid internship, so she had to save up an entire year's worth of living costs...

But like I said, you're right, there are definitely some times where they work out well, I just wish that was the norm, rather than the exception to the rule.
 
2013-12-05 10:09:37 AM  
Where are interns well paid?

I mean...ANYwhere?
 
2013-12-05 10:14:21 AM  

The Lone Gunman: Where are interns well paid?

I mean...ANYwhere?


I made $11/hr as an intern...in 2005. Got hired full-time a year later for about 35-40 grand. Of course, at the same time, I was an unpaid intern at a radio station for $0/hr and 0 college credit (I actually had to sign up for a noncredit class in order to get the internship) - but they paid for breakfast.

// and I got to meet Kevin Nealon and Alex Ovechkin and Shavo Odadjian and Darren Malakian and half the cast of X3
// and no job in broadcasting :(
 
2013-12-05 10:17:08 AM  

neversubmit: And conservatives have Google on their side.

Google Funding a Slew of Right-Wing Groups

American Conservative Union
Americans for Tax Reform
CATO Institute
Federalist Society
George Mason University Law School Law and Economics Center
Heritage Action
Mercatus Center
National Taxpayers Union
R Street Institute
Texas Public Policy Foundation


Wait, why would something called the Federalist Society be a conservative group?

(Googles)

Oh... It's another one of those conservative organizations that is just the opposite of what it's called. Like the ones with "reform" or "family" in their names.
 
2013-12-05 10:25:29 AM  

Mikey1969: But yeah, the worst one I heard was a girl who was interning on a teaching degree, and however the thing was set up, she couldn't work a second job the entire time, and it would also be an unpaid internship, so she had to save up an entire year's worth of living costs...


Damn, that SUCKS.  I've definitely heard those horror stories before---and it's why I think there needs to be some kind of regulation in place.  My university (Michigan) takes some care to "blacklist" employers that do that kind of shiat and bar them from recruiting on campus.  That said, universities that aren't really big and reputable don't have that kind of pull with employers and/or don't have the resources to investigate and enforce that sort of thing.  And there are also interns who aren't active students and thus don't have any protection like that.

I really think that internships need to be regulated in some way, in order to make sure that interns are reasonably protected.

Anyway, I don't understand the logic of companies that just make interns be useless gofers.  My company over the summer explicitly said "we want to give you real work so that you can actually earn your keep AND we can evaluate you as a possible future employee."  They realized that it would be a huge waste of their time and money to have us doing non-meaningful work.  Again, I think I might have just been lucky to get a nice employer though, given the horror stories you hear about internships out there.
 
2013-12-05 10:27:40 AM  
FTA: The article cites the discredited Keynesian "multiplier" effect, arguing that every $5 in food stamps generates $9 in economic activity.

You'd think they would mention this with a citation, but then again it's American Thinker.
 
2013-12-05 10:39:17 AM  

Almost Everybody Poops: FTA: The article cites the discredited Keynesian "multiplier" effect, arguing that every $5 in food stamps generates $9 in economic activity.

You'd think they would mention this with a citation, but then again it's American Thinker.


Haven't you noticed that "discredited" means "doesn't rampantly reinforce my biases" to teabaggers?  Have you never noticed that?


That's exactly what they mean when they say it.  "Discredited idea critical thinking" is a phrase I've heard come out of someone's mouth before.
 
2013-12-05 10:39:26 AM  
HMS_Blinkin: My company over the summer explicitly said "we want to give you real work so that you can actually earn your keep AND we can evaluate you as a possible future employee."  They realized that it would be a huge waste of their time and money to have us doing non-meaningful work.

And that's really how they're SUPPOSED to work... And some of them do, as you've shown. My stepson is going to be going to a Tech School for a welding degree(Apparently a pretty well regarded tech school), but I've kind of warned him about internships, while explaining that they aren't ALL horror stories, so hopefully he won't commit to anything without running it by us to get our opinion on it. I've never understood how companies can justify the gofer position either, it STILL costs them money, they really should be using the whole thing correctly. It's like when I PA'd on a movie when I was in school. I got to watch how a movie actually worked, but I didn't really do anything but try and keep people from entering the set from one direction once, and sit and bullshiat with Colin Farrell and Matt Frewer... Kinda fun, but not really "experience". I'd done more filmmaking in school.
 
2013-12-05 10:51:47 AM  

clkeagle: neversubmit: And conservatives have Google on their side.

Google Funding a Slew of Right-Wing Groups

American Conservative Union
Americans for Tax Reform
CATO Institute
Federalist Society
George Mason University Law School Law and Economics Center
Heritage Action
Mercatus Center
National Taxpayers Union
R Street Institute
Texas Public Policy Foundation

Wait, why would something called the Federalist Society be a conservative group?

(Googles)

Oh... It's another one of those conservative organizations that is just the opposite of what it's called. Like the ones with "reform" or "family" in their names.


Or "Thinker"
 
2013-12-05 10:53:03 AM  

The Lone Gunman: Where are interns well paid?

I mean...ANYwhere?


The firm I work for does an internship program with a couple of community colleges in Northeast Ohio and the interns that are brought in from the accounting department do actual tax and accounting work, and are paid commensurately. I personally know of two of the interns that were paid just below what I make in salary, but they were not included on the commission scale. One used the semester that he interned to lobby for a full time job, got it, then turned around a year and a half later and used that additional experience to land a full time job paying salary plus commission. The other used her internship to lobby for a full time job in our payroll department and now works full time on salary. (PR doesn't get commission.)
 
2013-12-05 10:58:03 AM  

NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.


They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.
 
2013-12-05 10:59:13 AM  

jayhawk88: I love that "hippie" can still - unironically - be used as a derogatory term by some people.


At this rate, conservatives will still be using "hipster" to refer to anyone they don't like in 2063. "Damn hipster President cruising around in his hover car."
 
2013-12-05 11:02:34 AM  

HMS_Blinkin: Mikey1969: A: Internships suck. THey should be illegal, especially the ones where all that you do is turn into a gofer. I've also seen internships that don't allow you to have a second job. It's a bullshiat practice and needs to go away.

Meh, not always.  I interned at a major company this summer, and I liked it.  I was paid very well, did real work, AND walked away with a full-time offer at the end for when I finish school.  Not a bad deal overall.

That said, I know there's plenty of employers where internships are borderline abusive/slavery.  There's a real value to GOOD internships, though, so I would say that they need to be much more tightly regulated rather than done away with entirely.


Ask any doctor what their internship/residency was like if you want horror stories...
 
2013-12-05 11:09:48 AM  

neversubmit: And conservatives have Google on their side.

Google Funding a Slew of Right-Wing Groups

American Conservative Union
Americans for Tax Reform
CATO Institute
Federalist Society
George Mason University Law School Law and Economics Center
Heritage Action
Mercatus Center
National Taxpayers Union
R Street Institute
Texas Public Policy Foundation


That's it. I'm using Bing from now on
 
2013-12-05 11:12:14 AM  

DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.


Shouldn't they be paid a Living Wage(TM) regardless of their title?
 
2013-12-05 11:16:17 AM  

DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.


As someone who worked media internships back in the day that's a hell of a lot better than what I got.
 
2013-12-05 11:25:24 AM  

skullkrusher: DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.

Shouldn't they be paid a Living Wage(TM) regardless of their title?


Sure, if you want to lose the prisoners' game of wages before the other person (a competitor) makes a move. That's like asking "If you want the tax rate to rise, why don't YOU pay more in taxes?" The point isn't that I want to pay more, it's that the system we have is insufficient to provide the things we want out of it (i.e. allowing businesses to pay people $7/hour is insufficient if we also want to limit government spending on TANF/SNAP/etc; taxing the top bracket at 39.6% is insufficient if we want something close to budget solvency anytime this century), so the system must be changed.

Social or legislative advocacy (or, you know, even just a 9-5) also won't mean a hill of beans if you can't afford to pay your people.
 
2013-12-05 11:37:57 AM  

Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.

Shouldn't they be paid a Living Wage(TM) regardless of their title?

Sure, if you want to lose the prisoners' game of wages before the other person (a competitor) makes a move. That's like asking "If you want the tax rate to rise, why don't YOU pay more in taxes?" The point isn't that I want to pay more, it's that the system we have is insufficient to provide the things we want out of it (i.e. allowing businesses to pay people $7/hour is insufficient if we also want to limit government spending on TANF/SNAP/etc; taxing the top bracket at 39.6% is insufficient if we want something close to budget solvency anytime this century), so the system must be changed.

Social or legislative advocacy (or, you know, even just a 9-5) also won't mean a hill of beans if you can't afford to pay your people.


Mother Jones will be at a competitive disadvantage by paying even min wage? They cannot voluntarily pay more without being forced? Presumably they pay non-interns a good bit more than $1,000 a month. Is there something magical about the title "intern" that they can only be paid very little without a law saying they be paid more? Or is it more of a matter where interns are generally young, inexperienced students who don't provide enough benefit to the employer to warrant higher wages so the employer sells the position as a learning experience to entice candidates?
 
2013-12-05 11:44:38 AM  

skullkrusher: DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.

Shouldn't they be paid a Living Wage(TM) regardless of their title?


Yes, If you scroll down to the very end of the article, you'll see that Mother Jones plans to up the pay by 50%. I am not suggesting this is great, just far better than most publications.
 
2013-12-05 11:46:19 AM  

DeaH: skullkrusher: DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.

Shouldn't they be paid a Living Wage(TM) regardless of their title?

Yes, If you scroll down to the very end of the article, you'll see that Mother Jones plans to up the pay by 50%. I am not suggesting this is great, just far better than most publications.


That 50% increase will bring the wage to just above CA minimum wage. That's not a "Living Wage" in San Francisco, where Mother Jones is based.
 
2013-12-05 11:46:55 AM  
If an intern is contributing to the core function of the company and not just receiving an education it is illegal not to pay them.
 
2013-12-05 11:53:00 AM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: DeaH: skullkrusher: DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.

Shouldn't they be paid a Living Wage(TM) regardless of their title?

Yes, If you scroll down to the very end of the article, you'll see that Mother Jones plans to up the pay by 50%. I am not suggesting this is great, just far better than most publications.

That 50% increase will bring the wage to just above CA minimum wage. That's not a "Living Wage" in San Francisco, where Mother Jones is based.

 
2013-12-05 11:53:28 AM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: DeaH: skullkrusher: DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.

Shouldn't they be paid a Living Wage(TM) regardless of their title?

Yes, If you scroll down to the very end of the article, you'll see that Mother Jones plans to up the pay by 50%. I am not suggesting this is great, just far better than most publications.

That 50% increase will bring the wage to just above CA minimum wage. That's not a "Living Wage" in San Francisco, where Mother Jones is based.


Uh most journalists don't make enough to actually live in San Francisco.
 
2013-12-05 11:55:19 AM  
I still like my idea.  If you are paying an able-bodied adult responsible for his/her own care/feeding a wage that qualifies them for public assistance, you the employer shall be fined an amount equal to the assistance for which that individual qualifies for.  After all, the public sector shouldn't be subsidizing your 'bootstrappy' enterprises right?  If they can't stand on their own, then they should be drowned by the 'free market'.
 
2013-12-05 11:59:50 AM  

Fart_Machine: The_Six_Fingered_Man: DeaH: skullkrusher: DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.

Shouldn't they be paid a Living Wage(TM) regardless of their title?

Yes, If you scroll down to the very end of the article, you'll see that Mother Jones plans to up the pay by 50%. I am not suggesting this is great, just far better than most publications.

That 50% increase will bring the wage to just above CA minimum wage. That's not a "Living Wage" in San Francisco, where Mother Jones is based.

Uh most journalists don't make enough to actually live in San Francisco.


And far be it from one of the vanguards of the living wage push to change that!
 
2013-12-05 12:01:33 PM  

DeaH: The_Six_Fingered_Man: DeaH: skullkrusher: DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.

Shouldn't they be paid a Living Wage(TM) regardless of their title?

Yes, If you scroll down to the very end of the article, you'll see that Mother Jones plans to up the pay by 50%. I am not suggesting this is great, just far better than most publications.

That 50% increase will bring the wage to just above CA minimum wage. That's not a "Living Wage" in San Francisco, where Mother Jones is based.


So you agree that they should be paid a living wage, then bring up how MJ will raise the stipend, even though it still doesn't come close a living wage in SF. So...... good job, good effort, I guess.

Fart_Machine: Uh most journalists don't make enough to actually live in San Francisco.


Chronicle staff writers are paid between $59-65k a year.
Examiner writers are paid on scale based on their pageviews and number of articles. Many of them telecommute from outside of SF.
Can't find any info for Bay Guardian, but that's considered an "alternative" paper and not among the majors.

The one major, the Chronicle, pays their staff writers a decent wage. You can get by living in SF on $59-64k a year. I know, I've done it, with a family and a single income. You just can't live in Russian River or SOMA.
 
2013-12-05 12:08:28 PM  

skullkrusher: Mother Jones will be at a competitive disadvantage by paying even min wage? They cannot voluntarily pay more without being forced? Presumably they pay non-interns a good bit more than $1,000 a month. Is there something magical about the title "intern" that they can only be paid very little without a law saying they be paid more? Or is it more of a matter where interns are generally young, inexperienced students who don't provide enough benefit to the employer to warrant higher wages so the employer sells the position as a learning experience to entice candidates?


I'll try to answer these in order. This may get long.

Mother Jones will be at a competitive disadvantage by paying the usually-recommended living wage ($12-15/hr, according to most) to their people, especially if the rest of the industry currently pays less than that. (Your OP asked about "Living Wage (TM)", not minimum.)

They absolutely could pay more without being forced, they'd just, as I said, lose the race to the bottom of the wage floor.

As far as I know, there's nothing specific about "Living Wage (TM)" proposals that ban flat-fee contracts or internships (even unpaid ones, though I suspect there would probably be language to define and limit unpaid internships) or other work arrangements that are currently not subject to minwage laws (farm workers and others).

If you assume that a kid fresh out of college can't contribute, congratulations, you're an idiot. I worked at a psych hospital - worked with patients - as a student for $9/hour after a two-week paid orientation; you're telling me a business can't spare 1/4 of $25-30k (a 90-day "trial period", which works out to $6-7k in pretax salary. For 3 months. I'm assuming big city, otherwise that probably drops to $20-25k per year/$5-6k for those 3 months - in either case, enough to get by paycheck to paycheck)?

Put another way, I've worked in places where new hires at the executive level were washouts, and plenty of places where management doesn't see (or doesn't care to see) where value is being lost on mid- or high-level people who do nothing (or where replacement value is far below their current salary). Saying that new grads "aren't worth it until we train them" sort of puts the lie to the "we need grads" part of the job description, no? You don't need grads, you need desperate people "enticed" by the prospect of getting ANY job.

Younger people are more tech savvy, have fewer bad work habits (because they have NO work habits yet), are cheaper, are more flexible (fewer spouses/kids in the mix) and are more eager. The fallacy that the kids don't know nothing is as old as it is incorrect. Young people are about as retarded as any other group.

You'd pay a barista to make/get your coffee and a file clerk to handle your papers, yet somehow when you combine them into a single job and claim they're getting "industry experience" (of the type they apparently couldn't get working at a coffeeshop or file desk) you get to pay them less? We call that "having your cake and eating it too" - you get an infinite ROI on any work they do perform, and don't lose anything if they fark around all day.

// I can't pay my rent with "industry experience", Jack
 
2013-12-05 12:10:03 PM  
No no, I had some potatoes for breakfast, I'm good.
 
2013-12-05 12:11:17 PM  

DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.


That's about $5.77 an hour.
 
2013-12-05 12:14:32 PM  

skullkrusher: Fart_Machine: The_Six_Fingered_Man: DeaH: skullkrusher: DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.

Shouldn't they be paid a Living Wage(TM) regardless of their title?

Yes, If you scroll down to the very end of the article, you'll see that Mother Jones plans to up the pay by 50%. I am not suggesting this is great, just far better than most publications.

That 50% increase will bring the wage to just above CA minimum wage. That's not a "Living Wage" in San Francisco, where Mother Jones is based.

Uh most journalists don't make enough to actually live in San Francisco.

And far be it from one of the vanguards of the living wage push to change that!


I wasn't under the impression that living wage meant you wouldn't have to commute. Most journalists and other salary employees still earn enough to live comfortably outside the city. But you knew that already and are just trolling.
 
2013-12-05 12:16:09 PM  
 
2013-12-05 12:16:51 PM  
The media in general are slavedrivers. And besides, it's not like people who would inter for MJ don't already have a cultish devotion to their partisan stance anyway.
 
2013-12-05 12:19:57 PM  

Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: Mother Jones will be at a competitive disadvantage by paying even min wage? They cannot voluntarily pay more without being forced? Presumably they pay non-interns a good bit more than $1,000 a month. Is there something magical about the title "intern" that they can only be paid very little without a law saying they be paid more? Or is it more of a matter where interns are generally young, inexperienced students who don't provide enough benefit to the employer to warrant higher wages so the employer sells the position as a learning experience to entice candidates?

I'll try to answer these in order. This may get long.

Mother Jones will be at a competitive disadvantage by paying the usually-recommended living wage ($12-15/hr, according to most) to their people, especially if the rest of the industry currently pays less than that. (Your OP asked about "Living Wage (TM)", not minimum.)

They absolutely could pay more without being forced, they'd just, as I said, lose the race to the bottom of the wage floor.

As far as I know, there's nothing specific about "Living Wage (TM)" proposals that ban flat-fee contracts or internships (even unpaid ones, though I suspect there would probably be language to define and limit unpaid internships) or other work arrangements that are currently not subject to minwage laws (farm workers and others).

If you assume that a kid fresh out of college can't contribute, congratulations, you're an idiot. I worked at a psych hospital - worked with patients - as a student for $9/hour after a two-week paid orientation; you're telling me a business can't spare 1/4 of $25-30k (a 90-day "trial period", which works out to $6-7k in pretax salary. For 3 months. I'm assuming big city, otherwise that probably drops to $20-25k per year/$5-6k for those 3 months - in either case, enough to get by paycheck to paycheck)?

Put another way, I've worked in places where new hires at the executive level were washouts, and plenty of places where management doesn't see (or doesn't care to see) where value is being lost on mid- or high-level people who do nothing (or where replacement value is far below their current salary). Saying that new grads "aren't worth it until we train them" sort of puts the lie to the "we need grads" part of the job description, no? You don't need grads, you need desperate people "enticed" by the prospect of getting ANY job.

Younger people are more tech savvy, have fewer bad work habits (because they have NO work habits yet), are cheaper, are more flexible (fewer spouses/kids in the mix) and are more eager. The fallacy that the kids don't know nothing is as old as it is incorrect. Young people are about as retarded as any other group.

You'd pay a barista to make/get your coffee and a file clerk to handle your papers, yet somehow when you combine them into a single job and claim they're getting "industry experience" (of the type they apparently couldn't get working at a coffeeshop or file desk) you get to pay them less? We call that "having your cake and eating it too" - you get an infinite ROI on any work they do perform, and don't lose anything if they fark around all day.

// I can't pay my rent with "industry experience", Jack


You are not at a competitive disadvantage by paying higher than prevailing wages. That is a competitive advantage. I have no idea why MJF pays their interns so poorly but presumably it's the same reason most everyone does it. Because they can.
 
2013-12-05 12:20:06 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: DeaH: The_Six_Fingered_Man: DeaH: skullkrusher: DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.

Shouldn't they be paid a Living Wage(TM) regardless of their title?

Yes, If you scroll down to the very end of the article, you'll see that Mother Jones plans to up the pay by 50%. I am not suggesting this is great, just far better than most publications.

That 50% increase will bring the wage to just above CA minimum wage. That's not a "Living Wage" in San Francisco, where Mother Jones is based.

So you agree that they should be paid a living wage, then bring up how MJ will raise the stipend, even though it still doesn't come close a living wage in SF. So...... good job, good effort, I guess.

Fart_Machine: Uh most journalists don't make enough to actually live in San Francisco.

Chronicle staff writers are paid between $59-65k a year.
Examiner writers are paid on scale based on their pageviews and number of articles. Many of them telecommute from outside of SF.
Can't find any info for Bay Guardian, but that's considered an "alternative" paper and not among the majors.

The one major, the Chronicle, pays their staff writers a decent wage. You can get by living in SF on $59-64k a year. I know, I've done it, with a family and a single income. You just can't live in Russian River or SOMA.


They're making above and beyond what the average journalist salary is in California then (which is around 49k). I'm going to guess MJ is about in that level. Even the big league publications aren't going to pay their interns that much.
 
2013-12-05 12:21:06 PM  

Fart_Machine: skullkrusher: Fart_Machine: The_Six_Fingered_Man: DeaH: skullkrusher: DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.

Shouldn't they be paid a Living Wage(TM) regardless of their title?

Yes, If you scroll down to the very end of the article, you'll see that Mother Jones plans to up the pay by 50%. I am not suggesting this is great, just far better than most publications.

That 50% increase will bring the wage to just above CA minimum wage. That's not a "Living Wage" in San Francisco, where Mother Jones is based.

Uh most journalists don't make enough to actually live in San Francisco.

And far be it from one of the vanguards of the living wage push to change that!

I wasn't under the impression that living wage meant you wouldn't have to commute. Most journalists and other salary employees still earn enough to live comfortably outside the city. But you knew that already and are just trolling.


Commute from where in the Bay Area on $1000 a month? It's not trolling just because you don't get it
 
2013-12-05 12:24:50 PM  

skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: Mother Jones will be at a competitive disadvantage by paying even min wage? They cannot voluntarily pay more without being forced? Presumably they pay non-interns a good bit more than $1,000 a month. Is there something magical about the title "intern" that they can only be paid very little without a law saying they be paid more? Or is it more of a matter where interns are generally young, inexperienced students who don't provide enough benefit to the employer to warrant higher wages so the employer sells the position as a learning experience to entice candidates?

I'll try to answer these in order. This may get long.

Mother Jones will be at a competitive disadvantage by paying the usually-recommended living wage ($12-15/hr, according to most) to their people, especially if the rest of the industry currently pays less than that. (Your OP asked about "Living Wage (TM)", not minimum.)

They absolutely could pay more without being forced, they'd just, as I said, lose the race to the bottom of the wage floor.

As far as I know, there's nothing specific about "Living Wage (TM)" proposals that ban flat-fee contracts or internships (even unpaid ones, though I suspect there would probably be language to define and limit unpaid internships) or other work arrangements that are currently not subject to minwage laws (farm workers and others).

If you assume that a kid fresh out of college can't contribute, congratulations, you're an idiot. I worked at a psych hospital - worked with patients - as a student for $9/hour after a two-week paid orientation; you're telling me a business can't spare 1/4 of $25-30k (a 90-day "trial period", which works out to $6-7k in pretax salary. For 3 months. I'm assuming big city, otherwise that probably drops to $20-25k per year/$5-6k for those 3 months - in either case, enough to get by paycheck to paycheck)?

Put another way, I've worked in places where new hires at the executive level were washouts, and plenty of places where management doesn't see (or doesn't care to see) where value is being lost on mid- or high-level people who do nothing (or where replacement value is far below their current salary). Saying that new grads "aren't worth it until we train them" sort of puts the lie to the "we need grads" part of the job description, no? You don't need grads, you need desperate people "enticed" by the prospect of getting ANY job.

Younger people are more tech savvy, have fewer bad work habits (because they have NO work habits yet), are cheaper, are more flexible (fewer spouses/kids in the mix) and are more eager. The fallacy that the kids don't know nothing is as old as it is incorrect. Young people are about as retarded as any other group.

You'd pay a barista to make/get your coffee and a file clerk to handle your papers, yet somehow when you combine them into a single job and claim they're getting "industry experience" (of the type they apparently couldn't get working at a coffeeshop or file desk) you get to pay them less? We call that "having your cake and eating it too" - you get an infinite ROI on any work they do perform, and don't lose anything if they fark around all day.

// I can't pay my rent with "industry experience", Jack

You are not at a competitive disadvantage by paying higher than prevailing wages. That is a competitive advantage. I have no idea why MJF pays their interns so poorly but presumably it's the same reason most everyone does it. Because they can.


If we're going by the industry they really aren't since most media internships are unpaid.
 
2013-12-05 12:28:03 PM  

skullkrusher: Fart_Machine: skullkrusher: Fart_Machine: The_Six_Fingered_Man: DeaH: skullkrusher: DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.

Shouldn't they be paid a Living Wage(TM) regardless of their title?

Yes, If you scroll down to the very end of the article, you'll see that Mother Jones plans to up the pay by 50%. I am not suggesting this is great, just far better than most publications.

That 50% increase will bring the wage to just above CA minimum wage. That's not a "Living Wage" in San Francisco, where Mother Jones is based.

Uh most journalists don't make enough to actually live in San Francisco.

And far be it from one of the vanguards of the living wage push to change that!

I wasn't under the impression that living wage meant you wouldn't have to commute. Most journalists and other salary employees still earn enough to live comfortably outside the city. But you knew that already and are just trolling.

Commute from where in the Bay Area on $1000 a month? It's not trolling just because you don't get it


I was talking about journalists not interns. Did you note that word before you made your comment? They don't make 1000k a month but they also don't usually make enough to live comfortably in the city.
 
2013-12-05 12:29:18 PM  

skullkrusher: You are not at a competitive disadvantage by paying higher than prevailing wages. That is a competitive advantage. I have no idea why MJF pays their interns so poorly but presumably it's the same reason most everyone does it. Because they can.


Um, I'm no economics major, but please to explain? A higher payroll for the same amount of revenue won't depress earnings, thus putting the company who pays this higher wage at a competitive disadvantage relative to a company with the same revenue and a smaller payroll?

Company A:
-payroll = $1m
-revenue* = $2m

Company B:
-payroll = $700k
-revenue = $2m

If they were to bid on the same employee or service provider, Company B has $1.3 mil to negotiate with, whereas Company A only has $1 mil. They are in a disadvantageous competitive situation relative to Company B.

If Company A started as Company B (i.e. increased payroll 30% without raising additional cash) - besides being a bad idea without prospects for growth (ideally, a signed contract that will raise more revenue), which is beside the point - they would be in a competitively disadventageous situation relative to the status quo ante.

// unless...does "competitive disadvantage" hold some other special meaning I'm not privy to as a geek?

* that's not the right term, probably. "Total funds available"? "War chest including CoH, credit lines, projected revenue over the period in question and dividends, minus total projected liabilities over the same period"?
 
2013-12-05 12:31:48 PM  

sprgrss: By and large, internships are nothing more than modern day slavery.  No person, who is not currently in school, should be working for free as an "intern" and those companies that hire them, with the consideration for their work being experience, are engaging in illegal employment practices.

the whole internship system needs to be blown up.


Has anyone who has ever said, "X is like slavery" ever not made themselves look stupid?
 
2013-12-05 12:34:18 PM  

sweetmelissa31: jayhawk88: I love that "hippie" can still - unironically - be used as a derogatory term by some people.

At this rate, conservatives will still be using "hipster" to refer to anyone they don't like in 2063. "Damn hipster President cruising around in his hover car."


"Look at that cyber-biatch eating virtual crackers like she owns the place"
 
2013-12-05 12:35:34 PM  

BMFPitt: sprgrss: By and large, internships are nothing more than modern day slavery.  No person, who is not currently in school, should be working for free as an "intern" and those companies that hire them, with the consideration for their work being experience, are engaging in illegal employment practices.

the whole internship system needs to be blown up.

Has anyone who has ever said, "X is like slavery" ever not made themselves look stupid?


When X really does share a lot of common characteristics to indentured servitude, you can say it and not look stupid. That said, there are very few things in my mind that really are that close to slavery outside of slavery itself.
 
2013-12-05 12:39:19 PM  

Serious Black: BMFPitt: sprgrss: By and large, internships are nothing more than modern day slavery.  No person, who is not currently in school, should be working for free as an "intern" and those companies that hire them, with the consideration for their work being experience, are engaging in illegal employment practices.

the whole internship system needs to be blown up.

Has anyone who has ever said, "X is like slavery" ever not made themselves look stupid?

When X really does share a lot of common characteristics to indentured servitude, you can say it and not look stupid. That said, there are very few things in my mind that really are that close to slavery outside of slavery itself.


Yeah, just without the indentured part. Kind of like how having consensual sec is just like rape except for the consent part.
 
2013-12-05 12:43:59 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: So you agree that they should be paid a living wage, then bring up how MJ will raise the stipend, even though it still doesn't come close a living wage in SF. So...... good job, good effort, I guess.


I think they should be paid a living wage. What Mother Jones is paying them is not great, but it is far better than other publishing interns. I am not sure why this is a hard concept for you to understand, since I have said this more than one. So, to repeat a fourth time, they should be paid a living wage. What Mother Jones is paying them is not great, but it is far better than other publishing interns.

Perhaps you're the sort that needs an example:

Here is the rent for an apartment in Oakland, the town next to San Francisco. Usually, one can find better deals by not shopping for rents online, but let's assume our intern is from another state. So, let's say he moves into the most expensive four-bedroom apartment in the building and shares it with three other people. Everyone gets his own room, which is a lot better than living in most dorms. His share would be $328 a month. Let's assume utilities are not included. The amenities do include high speed internet, and the more expensive units (which our unit is) are furnished. So, figure his share of electric and gas would be about $200 a month. If he has a car (gift from the 'rents for high school gradution?), figure another $400 for gas and insurance. If he does not have a car, he will have to take public transport . A BART Fast Pass is $70 per month. If this is a six-month internship, we probably do not have to factor in wardrobe, so zero for that.

The with-car-intern would have just 72 dollars left for food and entertainment at the $1000/stipend. After taxes, it would be nothing. Yes, he would need to have more roommates, and he might want to re-think the car. He would have $572 left at the raised amount (less after taxes). It's not a ton, but it will buy food and some beer.

The no-car-intern would have have $598 left under the $1000/month stipend. He would have $1598 under the new stipend. This is not lavish living, and a chunk of his time would be spent on public transportation, but he can live comfortable, but not lavishly. He can't live in San Francisco, but he can live the next town over.

Now, let's look at a standard internship for publications. Most are in New York City. Most pay nothing. True, the cost of living is significantly cheaper in New Jersey, and public transportation is available, but none of those things are free. Only a person with parents willing (and able) to foot the bill can afford these internships.

Do you see the difference? What Mother Jones is paying them is not great, but it is far better than other publishing interns.

Now, to use the specious comparison of the article, comparing an intern with a Walmart minimum wage worker, things begin to breakdown quickly. The average fast food or Walmart employee is in his late 20s. He is not a college student. He often comes from lower income families. His roommates are likely to be one or more of his children. They will not be contributing to the rent. Our interns are unlikely to be supporting children, and they will not need to worry about childcare the way the Walmart worker does. You see, interns (by any name) tend to be just starting out. They deserve to be paid. And the wage should be livable for the location (if there is no public transportation, that means in the city; if there is public transportation, there's wiggle room). People working fast food and retail tend to not be just starting. Many of them have children. Comparing those jobs to internships is ridiculous.

So, now that this is all spelled out for you, perhaps you will understand that what Mother Jones is paying them is not great, but it is far better than other publishing interns. And neither can be meaningfully compared to retail or fast food.
 
2013-12-05 12:47:58 PM  

Cletus C.: DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.

That's about $5.77 an hour.


Mother Jones is raising it to $1500. See the math in this post to see how it works out at the $1000/month and $1500/month stipend. It's not great. The person taking the job would have to make sacrifices, but it is doable as long is not supporting a family or going to be in the job long-term.
 
2013-12-05 12:53:37 PM  

Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: You are not at a competitive disadvantage by paying higher than prevailing wages. That is a competitive advantage. I have no idea why MJF pays their interns so poorly but presumably it's the same reason most everyone does it. Because they can.

Um, I'm no economics major, but please to explain? A higher payroll for the same amount of revenue won't depress earnings, thus putting the company who pays this higher wage at a competitive disadvantage relative to a company with the same revenue and a smaller payroll?

Company A:
-payroll = $1m
-revenue* = $2m

Company B:
-payroll = $700k
-revenue = $2m

If they were to bid on the same employee or service provider, Company B has $1.3 mil to negotiate with, whereas Company A only has $1 mil. They are in a disadvantageous competitive situation relative to Company B.

If Company A started as Company B (i.e. increased payroll 30% without raising additional cash) - besides being a bad idea without prospects for growth (ideally, a signed contract that will raise more revenue), which is beside the point - they would be in a competitively disadventageous situation relative to the status quo ante.

// unless...does "competitive disadvantage" hold some other special meaning I'm not privy to as a geek?

* that's not the right term, probably. "Total funds available"? "War chest including CoH, credit lines, projected revenue over the period in question and dividends, minus total projected liabilities over the same period"?


Paying above market wages is like cutting prices for your product. It's part of competition. You are not at a disadvantage trying to undercut (or "overcut") in this case. Paying $50k a year, for example, would allow you to attract experienced people with a more highly developed skillset than paying $12k a year. If this increased productivity helps you and it makes sense, you do it. However, the calls for a living wage are outside of the supply and demand for labor analysis. They want to create a floor in wages because of ethical reasons. It is not a profit driven motive. Therefore, why would an organization pushing for such a floor pay employees below min wages?

Great example are my beloved Mets. They are broke as a joke and are trying to sign quality talent at a discount. Their desire to undercut the market is putting them at a competitive disadvantage in the market for labor. The Yankees who have apparently forgotten their desire to go below $189M in payroll have the money to pay above market to make sure they get what they want. They have a competitive advantage.
 
2013-12-05 12:54:38 PM  
Theoretically speaking, how many miles per hippy does Mother Jones get?

/Alternative fuel, indeed.
 
2013-12-05 12:56:23 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: DeaH: skullkrusher: DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.

Shouldn't they be paid a Living Wage(TM) regardless of their title?

Yes, If you scroll down to the very end of the article, you'll see that Mother Jones plans to up the pay by 50%. I am not suggesting this is great, just far better than most publications.

That 50% increase will bring the wage to just above CA minimum wage. That's not a "Living Wage" in San Francisco, where Mother Jones is based.


That would be best, but it is livable in Oakland. I did the math in this post. It's doable. I wouldn't want to do it for years on end, but I would have been able to do that for six months. And, if the what they are saying about the internship is true, I would be building a portfolio, and I would have real field experience. I could not have done it if I owned a home or had children. I could never, under any circumstances, have take the standard publishing internship - the terms of which are generally, "Get me coffee and laundry as a favor. I will pay you nothing, but I will write you a letter of recommendation." My dad died at the start of my sophomore year, and my mom was disabled from a car accident. If I wasn't getting paid, I couldn't do it.
 
2013-12-05 01:00:41 PM  

DeaH: A BART Fast Pass is $70 per month.


There's a small flaw with your math. You can't live in Oakland and use a monthly Fast Pass on BART. Those only work for in SF travel. The intern would have to use high value passes and the trip from Coliseum (your rental) to Montgomery (closest BART to MoJo) is $3.85 a day. So we're talking about at least $77 a month, not counting any travel they would have to do outside of the regular commute, such as tracking down stories within The City.

DeaH: The no-car-intern would have have $598 left under the $1000/month stipend. He would have $1598 under the new stipend.


Here's another math issue. The current stipend is $1000/month. The new stipend will be $1500 a month. You have given him an extra $1000 a month under the new stipend. He would have ~$1100 left, not $1598.
 
2013-12-05 01:01:14 PM  

A Cave Geek: I still like my idea.  If you are paying an able-bodied adult responsible for his/her own care/feeding a wage that qualifies them for public assistance, you the employer shall be fined an amount equal to the assistance for which that individual qualifies for.  After all, the public sector shouldn't be subsidizing your 'bootstrappy' enterprises right?  If they can't stand on their own, then they should be drowned by the 'free market'.


Personally I say we get rid of all personal taxes, medicare, social security...and...wait for it...give every adult over 18, that isn't incarcerated a yearly stipend of 11k (federal poverty level). With that 11k you should also given the option, if you choose not to buy healthcare with the free 11k, your stuck with the bill. You can get a job and make more money or you can sit around playing bongo's naked all day and no one can complain your not being fed.
 
2013-12-05 01:03:21 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: DeaH: A BART Fast Pass is $70 per month.

There's a small flaw with your math. You can't live in Oakland and use a monthly Fast Pass on BART. Those only work for in SF travel. The intern would have to use high value passes and the trip from Coliseum (your rental) to Montgomery (closest BART to MoJo) is $3.85 a day. So we're talking about at least $77 a month, not counting any travel they would have to do outside of the regular commute, such as tracking down stories within The City.

DeaH: The no-car-intern would have have $598 left under the $1000/month stipend. He would have $1598 under the new stipend.

Here's another math issue. The current stipend is $1000/month. The new stipend will be $1500 a month. You have given him an extra $1000 a month under the new stipend. He would have ~$1100 left, not $1598.


You are right. I didn't add the differential. Still, $1100 is still enough to eat well and have a bit of fun.
 
2013-12-05 01:10:18 PM  

DeaH: The_Six_Fingered_Man: DeaH: A BART Fast Pass is $70 per month.

There's a small flaw with your math. You can't live in Oakland and use a monthly Fast Pass on BART. Those only work for in SF travel. The intern would have to use high value passes and the trip from Coliseum (your rental) to Montgomery (closest BART to MoJo) is $3.85 a day. So we're talking about at least $77 a month, not counting any travel they would have to do outside of the regular commute, such as tracking down stories within The City.

DeaH: The no-car-intern would have have $598 left under the $1000/month stipend. He would have $1598 under the new stipend.

Here's another math issue. The current stipend is $1000/month. The new stipend will be $1500 a month. You have given him an extra $1000 a month under the new stipend. He would have ~$1100 left, not $1598.

You are right. I didn't add the differential. Still, $1100 is still enough to eat well and have a bit of fun.


And that's fine. But you did state that the car having intern would not be able to eat. You did sort of include taxes, but you didn't provide any calculation on those. Let's assume a round number of ~12% based on Fed and CA taxes out of pocket.

That's $120 and probably wouldn't include SDI. You also didn't include health insurance, which is a required cost now.

There are a lot of variables that go into that equation, and you failed to account for a couple. I'm not saying it can't be done, but let's not pretend that $1000/month working in SF and living in Oakland isn't squeaking by.

Hell, I had to live in Antioch and commute to SF and I made almost $60k a year when I lived there. I simply couldn't afford to live any closer once my family reached its current size. I did it for a while when we only had the one child, but we needed to upgrade our living space and didn't want to live next to the Coliseum. (no offense)
 
2013-12-05 01:10:54 PM  

skullkrusher: However, the calls for a living wage are outside of the supply and demand for labor analysis. They want to create a floor in wages because of ethical reasons. It is not a profit driven motive. Therefore, why would an organization pushing for such a floor pay employees below min wages?


Because there would BE no fight if they couldn't pay the fighters, sort of like how there'd be no military if we couldn't pay the soldiers ("volunteer" army doesn't mean "enlist without compensation"). If they overspend on payroll, they don't have as much money for things like servers and coffee and advertising, which puts them at a competitive disadvantage relative to those with ample funds to spend on ads (because they've got an all-unpaid-intern force). Other outlets who don't share MJ's views undercut MJ's ability to write articles calling for a "Living Wage (TM)" (since they don't need to raise as much revenue for payroll), which makes it less likely that such a bill ever gets proposed (much less passed), and for want of fairness for 100 (or 1,000) employees in one office, the war to gain ground on wage fairness for 165 million working-age people in all 50 states was lost.

You may find it hypocritical or whatever, but they're working within the rules to effect changes to the rules. Again, all your argumentation just sounds like "Well, if you think taxes should be higher, pay more in taxes YOURSELF, lib." Which misses the point.
 
2013-12-05 01:18:55 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: DeaH: The_Six_Fingered_Man: DeaH: A BART Fast Pass is $70 per month.

There's a small flaw with your math. You can't live in Oakland and use a monthly Fast Pass on BART. Those only work for in SF travel. The intern would have to use high value passes and the trip from Coliseum (your rental) to Montgomery (closest BART to MoJo) is $3.85 a day. So we're talking about at least $77 a month, not counting any travel they would have to do outside of the regular commute, such as tracking down stories within The City.

DeaH: The no-car-intern would have have $598 left under the $1000/month stipend. He would have $1598 under the new stipend.

Here's another math issue. The current stipend is $1000/month. The new stipend will be $1500 a month. You have given him an extra $1000 a month under the new stipend. He would have ~$1100 left, not $1598.

You are right. I didn't add the differential. Still, $1100 is still enough to eat well and have a bit of fun.

And that's fine. But you did state that the car having intern would not be able to eat. You did sort of include taxes, but you didn't provide any calculation on those. Let's assume a round number of ~12% based on Fed and CA taxes out of pocket.

That's $120 and probably wouldn't include SDI. You also didn't include health insurance, which is a required cost now.

There are a lot of variables that go into that equation, and you failed to account for a couple. I'm not saying it can't be done, but let's not pretend that $1000/month working in SF and living in Oakland isn't squeaking by.

Hell, I had to live in Antioch and commute to SF and I made almost $60k a year when I lived there. I simply couldn't afford to live any closer once my family reached its current size. I did it for a while when we only had the one child, but we needed to upgrade our living space and didn't want to live next to the Coliseum. (no offense)


Yes, I could not do it at this point in my life. I could not do it in my late 20s. I could have done it at 21 or 22 (I didn't have a car), and I would have shared a bedroom, just like in the dorm. And Mother Jones really did need to raise that another $500, which they did. It isn't great, but it's something I could have done, unlike other publishing internships. I am in no way pretending this is a good living. It's not. What it is is something that is doable for most students. Most internships in publishing can only go to kids with trust funds or well-to-do parents. Mother Jones is way above industry standards for their industry, and they can get better interns than most publishers. Is that great? No. But it is absurd to pretend this is the same as Walmart paying working mothers and fathers a crap wage. It's not.
 
2013-12-05 01:23:42 PM  

skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.

Shouldn't they be paid a Living Wage(TM) regardless of their title?

Sure, if you want to lose the prisoners' game of wages before the other person (a competitor) makes a move. That's like asking "If you want the tax rate to rise, why don't YOU pay more in taxes?" The point isn't that I want to pay more, it's that the system we have is insufficient to provide the things we want out of it (i.e. allowing businesses to pay people $7/hour is insufficient if we also want to limit government spending on TANF/SNAP/etc; taxing the top bracket at 39.6% is insufficient if we want something close to budget solvency anytime this century), so the system must be changed.

Social or legislative advocacy (or, you know, even just a 9-5) also won't mean a hill of beans if you can't afford to pay your people.

Mother Jones will be at a competitive disadvantage by paying even min wage? They cannot voluntarily pay more without being forced? Presumably they pay non-interns a good bit more than $1,000 a month. Is there something magical about the title "intern" that they can only be paid very little without a law saying they be paid more? Or is it more of a matter where interns are generally young, inexperienced students who don't provide enough benefit t ...


As far as getting better interns, Mother Jones is at a competitive advantage. Most publishing interns make nothing. I do think their interns should make at least minimum wage. The increase in the stipend to $1500/month takes it up to that, and it should have been that across the board for all internships. But let's not pretend that the majority of publishing internships pay even a dime.
 
2013-12-05 01:27:51 PM  

skozlaw: What the heck is latte liberalism? All the people I know who drink latte are a bunch of stuffed-shirt conservatives from the suburbs who think that Starbucks is a lifestyle.


I don't know about you, but I've met a lot of yuppies who vote Democratic.  They're not the type who read Mother Jones, but there is at least some overlap between the two demographics.
 
2013-12-05 01:28:53 PM  

skullkrusher: You are not at a competitive disadvantage by paying higher than prevailing wages. That is a competitive advantage.


Oh, I see the disconnect. They're able to attract better individual talent by paying higher wages (assuming a 50k/year worker is always a "better" worker than a 40k/year worker, I guess), but they're less able to compete overall because they have less to spend.

Hmmm, a zero-sum game with benefits and risks on both sides? In business? Never!
 
2013-12-05 01:53:39 PM  

Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: You are not at a competitive disadvantage by paying higher than prevailing wages. That is a competitive advantage.

Oh, I see the disconnect. They're able to attract better individual talent by paying higher wages (assuming a 50k/year worker is always a "better" worker than a 40k/year worker, I guess), but they're less able to compete overall because they have less to spend.

Hmmm, a zero-sum game with benefits and risks on both sides? In business? Never!


Not a zero sum game, a game where you try to maximize the benefit by choosing the correct balance.

So offering a high (as composted to similar positions) salary will allow you to be much more selective and have a larger talent pool to choose from.

Just raising the pay of existing interns will give you very little bang for your buck, though it may still have done impact.

And if your interns are just coffee fetchers, then having "better" ones probably won't do much for you.

And there will certainly be diminishing returns. Paying 50% more might have a huge impact, but 100% might not do much more.
 
2013-12-05 02:21:07 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: The Lone Gunman: Where are interns well paid?

I mean...ANYwhere?

The firm I work for does an internship program with a couple of community colleges in Northeast Ohio and the interns that are brought in from the accounting department do actual tax and accounting work, and are paid commensurately. I personally know of two of the interns that were paid just below what I make in salary, but they were not included on the commission scale. One used the semester that he interned to lobby for a full time job, got it, then turned around a year and a half later and used that additional experience to land a full time job paying salary plus commission. The other used her internship to lobby for a full time job in our payroll department and now works full time on salary. (PR doesn't get commission.)


So the internships were well paying, they were temp jobs (which is fine), and the interns parlayed that into full-time work (which is how it's supposed to go).

"The Office" aside, interns aren't supposed to make their living interning.  They're supposed to get experience, get college credit, and use it to get full-time work in your field.

I think it's great that your firm has done that well by its interns, but not all businesses are like that.  Radio stations certainly aren't, and business that have students compete to intern for them are in a better position to dictate terms.  If NewsCorp didn't pay their interns in anything but experience and college credit (and I don't know if they do or not), I would be fine with it.  If they treated their employees badly in ways they didn't anticipate (yelling, harassment, etc) that would be something else.
 
2013-12-05 02:22:34 PM  

Dr Dreidel: The Lone Gunman: Where are interns well paid?

I mean...ANYwhere?

I made $11/hr as an intern...in 2005. Got hired full-time a year later for about 35-40 grand. Of course, at the same time, I was an unpaid intern at a radio station for $0/hr and 0 college credit (I actually had to sign up for a noncredit class in order to get the internship) - but they paid for breakfast.

// and I got to meet Kevin Nealon and Alex Ovechkin and Shavo Odadjian and Darren Malakian and half the cast of X3
// and no job in broadcasting :(


You should come down to Helium Comedy Club, Kevin Nealon's there whenever he's in Phily.
 
2013-12-05 02:23:10 PM  
BMFPitt
Has anyone who has ever said, "X is like slavery" ever not made themselves look stupid?

"...experience demonstrates that there may be a slavery of wages only a little less galling and crushing in its effects than chattel slavery, and that this slavery of wages must go down with the other"
Frederick Douglass
 
2013-12-05 02:25:13 PM  

Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: However, the calls for a living wage are outside of the supply and demand for labor analysis. They want to create a floor in wages because of ethical reasons. It is not a profit driven motive. Therefore, why would an organization pushing for such a floor pay employees below min wages?

Because there would BE no fight if they couldn't pay the fighters, sort of like how there'd be no military if we couldn't pay the soldiers ("volunteer" army doesn't mean "enlist without compensation"). If they overspend on payroll, they don't have as much money for things like servers and coffee and advertising, which puts them at a competitive disadvantage relative to those with ample funds to spend on ads (because they've got an all-unpaid-intern force). Other outlets who don't share MJ's views undercut MJ's ability to write articles calling for a "Living Wage (TM)" (since they don't need to raise as much revenue for payroll), which makes it less likely that such a bill ever gets proposed (much less passed), and for want of fairness for 100 (or 1,000) employees in one office, the war to gain ground on wage fairness for 165 million working-age people in all 50 states was lost.

You may find it hypocritical or whatever, but they're working within the rules to effect changes to the rules. Again, all your argumentation just sounds like "Well, if you think taxes should be higher, pay more in taxes YOURSELF, lib." Which misses the point.


And if everyone pays the higher wage somehow these revenue concerns are eliminated? So no one can pay for advertising and the whole industry sees a drop in revenue? nonsense
If you push for a living wage and refuse to pay one yourself because it's bad for business, fark you in the ear.

It is nothing at all like voluntarily paying more in taxes. One dude paying more in taxes isn't gonna do shiat. One company increasing the wages of their employees will. If everyone can afford to pay their employees more then you should have no problem doing so and attracting better candidates in the process.
 
2013-12-05 02:30:10 PM  

DeaH: skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.

Shouldn't they be paid a Living Wage(TM) regardless of their title?

Sure, if you want to lose the prisoners' game of wages before the other person (a competitor) makes a move. That's like asking "If you want the tax rate to rise, why don't YOU pay more in taxes?" The point isn't that I want to pay more, it's that the system we have is insufficient to provide the things we want out of it (i.e. allowing businesses to pay people $7/hour is insufficient if we also want to limit government spending on TANF/SNAP/etc; taxing the top bracket at 39.6% is insufficient if we want something close to budget solvency anytime this century), so the system must be changed.

Social or legislative advocacy (or, you know, even just a 9-5) also won't mean a hill of beans if you can't afford to pay your people.

Mother Jones will be at a competitive disadvantage by paying even min wage? They cannot voluntarily pay more without being forced? Presumably they pay non-interns a good bit more than $1,000 a month. Is there something magical about the title "intern" that they can only be paid very little without a law saying they be paid more? Or is it more of a matter where interns are generally young, inexperienced students who don't provide enough benefit t ...

As far as getting better interns, Mother Jones is at a competitive advantage. Most publishing interns make nothing. I do think their interns should make at least minimum wage. The increase in the stipend to $1500/month takes it up to that, and it should have been that across the board for all internships. But let's not pretend that the majority of publishing internships pay even a dime.


The point is not what they pay relative to others in the industry. The point is that they advocate that EVERYONE make a good bit more than they themselves pay their interns. I don't find "hey, we may pay them shiat but it is better then nothing" terribly compelling in arguing against the obvious hypocrisy.
 
2013-12-05 02:32:43 PM  

RanDomino: BMFPitt
Has anyone who has ever said, "X is like slavery" ever not made themselves look stupid?

"...experience demonstrates that there may be a slavery of wages only a little less galling and crushing in its effects than chattel slavery, and that this slavery of wages must go down with the other"
Frederick Douglass


If you ignore the beatings, rape, forced separation from family and getting murdered for learning to read, sure. Hardly a difference.
 
2013-12-05 02:37:41 PM  
My niece just paid $7k for an internship.
 
2013-12-05 03:19:08 PM  
The best internships I ever had were unpaid. Best in that they showed me how awful the jobs would have been had I had them, and how much I didn't want those jobs (although I thought I did at the time), and since they were internships through school, I got to walk out no-harm-no-foul at the end of the semester and not even put them on my resume if I didn't want to. Since they were unpaid, they don't appear anywhere, not even on my tax returns or my school transcripts.

Unless I choose to mention them, the wretched experiences I had at these locations never happened; so yes, there IS a good reason for unpaid internships.
 
2013-12-05 03:58:22 PM  
So Vice.com does an article calling out the hypocrisy in liberal media for these unpaid internships and the hacks at American Stinker use it in their little right vs left culture war, completely missing the point?

How much does Stinker pay Drew to get endless greenlights?
 
2013-12-05 04:56:22 PM  

skullkrusher: DeaH: skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: DeaH: NutWrench: The hippy-fueled magazine

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Also, someone doesn't know what "internship" means.

They pay their interns $1000/month and call the positions "fellows," sort of like an academic fellowship. That is a lot better pay than most internships, and they guarantee the position is doing real research and journalism - no coffee-getting and laundy pick-ups. True, $1000/month is not enough to live in San Francisco (it would need to be roughly double), but it's better by far than most internship pay which is usually just pay "experience and connections."

Here's the original article the information came from. Search for the "Be Our Hero" subhead to find the section on Mother Jones.

Shouldn't they be paid a Living Wage(TM) regardless of their title?

Sure, if you want to lose the prisoners' game of wages before the other person (a competitor) makes a move. That's like asking "If you want the tax rate to rise, why don't YOU pay more in taxes?" The point isn't that I want to pay more, it's that the system we have is insufficient to provide the things we want out of it (i.e. allowing businesses to pay people $7/hour is insufficient if we also want to limit government spending on TANF/SNAP/etc; taxing the top bracket at 39.6% is insufficient if we want something close to budget solvency anytime this century), so the system must be changed.

Social or legislative advocacy (or, you know, even just a 9-5) also won't mean a hill of beans if you can't afford to pay your people.

Mother Jones will be at a competitive disadvantage by paying even min wage? They cannot voluntarily pay more without being forced? Presumably they pay non-interns a good bit more than $1,000 a month. Is there something magical about the title "intern" that they can only be paid very little without a law saying they be paid more? Or is it more of a matter where interns are generally young, inexperienced students who don't prov ...


I am not arguing whether the interns should be paid more. They should. I am merely pointing out that, if there is no competitive advantage to paying their interns more than the industry standard, Mother Jones is still willingly doing that. An internship should never require a trust fund to keep a roof over one's head..The increase in stipend takes the stipend up to the California minimum wage, which is higher than the rest of the country, but that still doesn't mean it's enough to live in San Francisco. The intern would have to live in Oakland or some adjacent community. Do I think the pay should be better? Certainly. Do I think the stipend is livable? If the person does not have dependents and does not own property, yes.
 
2013-12-05 04:58:26 PM  

Gyrfalcon: The best internships I ever had were unpaid. Best in that they showed me how awful the jobs would have been had I had them, and how much I didn't want those jobs (although I thought I did at the time), and since they were internships through school, I got to walk out no-harm-no-foul at the end of the semester and not even put them on my resume if I didn't want to. Since they were unpaid, they don't appear anywhere, not even on my tax returns or my school transcripts.

Unless I choose to mention them, the wretched experiences I had at these locations never happened; so yes, there IS a good reason for unpaid internships.


Even if you were paid, why would you have to mention them?
 
2013-12-05 08:08:02 PM  
skullkrusher
If you ignore the beatings, rape, forced separation from family and getting murdered for learning to read, sure. Hardly a difference.

Frederick Douglass
 
2013-12-05 09:13:43 PM  

RanDomino: skullkrusher
If you ignore the beatings, rape, forced separation from family and getting murdered for learning to read, sure. Hardly a difference.

Frederick Douglass


So? I bet other ex slaves gave him tons of shiat for that stupid ass quote.
 
2013-12-05 09:35:34 PM  
skullkrusher
So? I bet other ex slaves gave him tons of shiat for that stupid ass quote.

Another magical adventure inside skully's head.
 
2013-12-05 09:50:44 PM  

RanDomino: skullkrusher
So? I bet other ex slaves gave him tons of shiat for that stupid ass quote.

Another magical adventure inside skully's head.


Famous historical figures said stupid stuff sometimes. Saying having a low paying, dead end job is barely better then being an actual slave is colossally stupid, even if you were a former slave. Sometimes hyperbole is too stupid to work. This is one of those times.
 
2013-12-05 10:50:57 PM  

DeaH: Gyrfalcon: The best internships I ever had were unpaid. Best in that they showed me how awful the jobs would have been had I had them, and how much I didn't want those jobs (although I thought I did at the time), and since they were internships through school, I got to walk out no-harm-no-foul at the end of the semester and not even put them on my resume if I didn't want to. Since they were unpaid, they don't appear anywhere, not even on my tax returns or my school transcripts.

Unless I choose to mention them, the wretched experiences I had at these locations never happened; so yes, there IS a good reason for unpaid internships.

Even if you were paid, why would you have to mention them?


Long roundabout answer: For purposes of things like background checks, a job which you were paid for, and thus which had taxes paid on it, will appear on your tax returns, if nothing else. If for some reason you need plausible deniability for such a job, you'll never have it--if you were paid. But unpaid positions are as ephemeral as air. So if you had an internship where you really f*cked up, you can pretend it never happened (like a volunteer job), but at the same time, internships are not considered as casual or non-work related as volunteering.
 
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