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(WorldNetDaily)   Americans are right to be wary of Pope Francis. His religious philosophy is a result of KGB influence in Latin America   (wnd.com) divider line 378
    More: Scary, Pope Francis, Latin American, KGB, Americans, KGB influence, Pope Pius XII, trickle-down economics, economic power  
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2121 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Dec 2013 at 1:04 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-04 03:38:03 PM  

technicolor-misfit: So, while there are a lot of good Christians who don't believe that bullshiat, maybe they ought to take issue with the ones who are preaching it and creating the perception, rather than other people who take note and criticize it.


I'm not sure where to go with your weird view of the obligations of one group of Christians to squelch another group who thinks differently, or how you think that would be a good idea, and I have no idea how you think Joel Osteen trumps the Vatican for instance, but I don't see any point fighting about it.

But out of curiosity, what do you think the new Pope is DOING?
 

jso2897: After all, how could I possibly summon the arrogance to think my worldview is more valid than a Nazi's, or a NAMBLA member's, or a member of some ignorant sect of bronze age primitives who want to stone gays and make abortion a crime again?How DARE I?


You might want to slow your roll a little there, turbo. Take a deep breath, allow yourself to accept the beauty of the world and find peace in the miracle that is your existence.

And maybe not compare Christians we don't like with Nazis?
 
2013-12-04 03:38:52 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: FarkedOver: I think your grasp of Marxism is very limited.

I know you do. But I also know you often struggle with addressing some fundamental questions about Marxism in practice, which suggests you are still at the data collection stage, and haven't reached the syncretism stage of knowledge yet. When you do, I suspect that you will, like so many of ahead of you have, realize why it's a broken ideology.

Or not. I'm happy to kick that ball around most days :)


I think I am a little past the data collection stage.  I think where I get hung up on your questions is in the way you phrase them.
 
2013-12-04 03:45:31 PM  

unexplained bacon: Today's GOP is so full of the worst kind of people that even something so obvious as the pope calling for his followers to be generous and forgiving is seen as an attack on them.


think about that....

/sociopaths, liars, the mentally ill, and the ultra-rich
//looking forward to hearing all about it during your primaries. Speak up patriots, make sure everyone can hear you.


This. I'm going to borrow this because you've put it perfectly.
 
2013-12-04 03:45:35 PM  

FarkedOver: I think where I get hung up on your questions is in the way you phrase them.


Very likely. But they are phrased the way they are on purpose. The difficulties you have had in answering them as asked is kinda the point. Many of them are the same questions I encountered as I began to understand why Marxism doesn't work.
 
2013-12-04 03:45:48 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: technicolor-misfit: So, while there are a lot of good Christians who don't believe that bullshiat, maybe they ought to take issue with the ones who are preaching it and creating the perception, rather than other people who take note and criticize it.

I'm not sure where to go with your weird view of the obligations of one group of Christians to squelch another group who thinks differently, or how you think that would be a good idea, and I have no idea how you think Joel Osteen trumps the Vatican for instance, but I don't see any point fighting about it.

But out of curiosity, what do you think the new Pope is DOING?
 
jso2897: After all, how could I possibly summon the arrogance to think my worldview is more valid than a Nazi's, or a NAMBLA member's, or a member of some ignorant sect of bronze age primitives who want to stone gays and make abortion a crime again?How DARE I?

You might want to slow your roll a little there, turbo. Take a deep breath, allow yourself to accept the beauty of the world and find peace in the miracle that is your existence.

And maybe not compare Christians we don't like with Nazis?


The word "compare" does not mean to say that two things are the same. But I will no more axiomatically accept that a "Christian's" views are valid by my standards than I would a Nazi's.
I might find a self described Christian's views to be valid, I might not. I am not bound to respect anyone's views as valid. Neither are you, or anyone else, for that matter.
Certainly, any dispute between the Bible Thumpers and the Mackerel Snappers doesn't mean shiat to me - it's the equivalent of two stinkbugs fighting over a turd. But, like a boxing match or a football game, I'm still allowed to have an opinion.
 
2013-12-04 03:45:50 PM  
It's nice to see WND finally admit the KGB did some good.
 
2013-12-04 03:49:08 PM  

FarkedOver: If this pope were genuinely concerned with the plight of the wealthy he would dump all the church's assets, property and gold and use the proceeds to enrich the flock.  This will never happen.  The pope is concerned with keeping parishioners numbers up!



I've heard several people make this point and it's just childish low-hanging fruit. One man, even the Pope, can't single-handedly undo decades of institutional inertia with the wave of his hand.

It's just cheap cynicism masquerading as some sort of keen insight or shabby facade of wisdom

 "I can knock down anybody and criticize them no matter what they do! Because everything is bullshiat and you can't put one over on me!"
 
2013-12-04 03:51:34 PM  

technicolor-misfit: FarkedOver: If this pope were genuinely concerned with the plight of the wealthy he would dump all the church's assets, property and gold and use the proceeds to enrich the flock.  This will never happen.  The pope is concerned with keeping parishioners numbers up!


I've heard several people make this point and it's just childish low-hanging fruit. One man, even the Pope, can't single-handedly undo decades of institutional inertia with the wave of his hand.

It's just cheap cynicism masquerading as some sort of keen insight or shabby facade of wisdom

 "I can knock down anybody and criticize them no matter what they do! Because everything is bullshiat and you can't put one over on me!"


So they should live in opulence while most of their adherents live in abject poverty?  Ok.
 
2013-12-04 03:55:29 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Very likely. But they are phrased the way they are on purpose. The difficulties you have had in answering them as asked is kinda the point. Many of them are the same questions I encountered as I began to understand why Marxism doesn't work.


I understand your objective, but that doesn't help me answer a question that doesn't make sense.  I could attempt to answer some of your questions if I assumed you meant something that you didn't write, but I wouldn't put words into your mouth, it's not fair to the person asking the question or to the person answering a question.
 
2013-12-04 03:57:30 PM  

Tripp Johnston Private Eye: Felgraf: Tripp Johnston Private Eye: Felgraf: BojanglesPaladin: Serious Black: If your moral philosophy suggests that poor people are that way because God is punishing them for being sinful wretches, then you might hate the poor just a little bit.

I am not aware of any religious denomination that teaches that. Nor have I ever encountered anyone who has said that. (I have, however, seen a lot of people who say that OTHER people believe that.)


You haven't encountered the prosperity gospel?

ARe you living under a rock?

/Hint: It god makes you rich because you are faithful/good, that kind of implies that if you're poor, you're just not being faithful/good enough.

I'm surprised he hasn't encountered it either; it stems logically from Calvin's ideas and is a non-fringe idea in mainstream Protestantism.

It also makes me frothingly *angry*. I'm not really sure I even count as a Christian anymore (I'm... not really sure WHAT I count as. Pratchettist?), but the prosperity gospel is such a perversion of the original work and message it just... really, really makes me angry. I think it in part has to do with the *willful* ignorance that must be part and parcel of it, since the bible rather explicitly states, repeatedly, *THAT IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY*.

I'm convinced some sort of Lovecraftian monstrosity from the darkest portion of the cosmos is manipulating the minds of American Christians into worshipping it while they still believe they are worshipping Christ.


Right after I read that I instantly thought that is exactly how Jesus describes Satan, deceiving those to follow a phony Jesus that rewards doers and performers. The real Jesus of the Bible says, My grace is sufficient. Republican Jesus says, perform and do good then I will reward you with a Cadillac.
 
2013-12-04 03:57:47 PM  

gshepnyc: unexplained bacon: Today's GOP is so full of the worst kind of people that even something so obvious as the pope calling for his followers to be generous and forgiving is seen as an attack on them.


think about that....

/sociopaths, liars, the mentally ill, and the ultra-rich
//looking forward to hearing all about it during your primaries. Speak up patriots, make sure everyone can hear you.

This. I'm going to borrow this because you've put it perfectly.


Have at it friend

They make it pretty easy to quantify just how terrible they are as Americans and human beings in general. I love it when they say just what they're thinking.
 
2013-12-04 04:01:07 PM  
netgamer7k:

Right after I read that I instantly thought that is exactly how Jesus describes Satan, deceiving those to follow a phony Jesus that rewards doers and performers. The real Jesus of the Bible says, My grace is sufficient. Republican Jesus says, perform and do good then I will reward you with a Cadillac.

Sola Fide
is also a corrupting influence that turns Christians into terrible people, who don't care about anyone else.  Prosperity gospel is a lesser crime than "faith alone" idiots, because it's fewer people.
 
2013-12-04 04:02:15 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Mikey1969: Even the poorest of the poor in the United States live far better than the rest of the world because capitalism works.


Really? The "poorest of the poor live far better than the entire "rest of the world"? So the US has a median income of $51,000, so let's say the poor live off a third of that. NOBODY on the planet makes MORE than $17,000 a year?

Hell that's the farthest I've gotten to this point, came up for air and a pair of hip waders...

It's a telephonic mis-recounting of a popular saw in Republican circles - that the poor in America are better off than the poor in any other nation.

Which is still incorrect, but at least closer to the truth. The poor in America have it better than the poor in just about any other country, but we have more of them than the developed ones, and do less. Also, THEY'RE STILL FARKING POOR.


And, if the American poor have so much as a refrigerator, the right wing goes batshiat crazy.
 
2013-12-04 04:03:26 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: I've seen a disturbing number quoting Jesus as saying "The poor will always be with us." as evidence that we should end all social programs because none of them will ever help, or that Jesus was seriously insisting hat the poor will never take responsibility for themselves.


The last two popes and mother Teresa all believed that there would always be poor people, so there was no reason to do anything to improve their lot in life.  All you could do was salve their wounds and help them die well.
 
2013-12-04 04:03:32 PM  

ikanreed: netgamer7k:

Right after I read that I instantly thought that is exactly how Jesus describes Satan, deceiving those to follow a phony Jesus that rewards doers and performers. The real Jesus of the Bible says, My grace is sufficient. Republican Jesus says, perform and do good then I will reward you with a Cadillac.

Sola Fide is also a corrupting influence that turns Christians into terrible people, who don't care about anyone else.  Prosperity gospel is a lesser crime than "faith alone" idiots, because it's fewer people.


Oh, don't get me started on Faith Alone. Even if my own beliefs have drifted, I'm glad the church I grew up in felt that was a bullshiat distinction without a difference. "To Believe is to care. To care is to do." If you truly believe something is good/righteous, you will farking *do* it.

/they placed a lot of emphasis on doing good *because it's good*, not because you're afraid you'll go to hell, not for magic-jesus-afterlife points.
 
2013-12-04 04:05:38 PM  

netgamer7k: Right after I read that I instantly thought that is exactly how Jesus describes Satan, deceiving those to follow a phony Jesus that rewards doers and performers. The real Jesus of the Bible says, My grace is sufficient. Republican Jesus says, perform and do good then I will reward you with a Cadillac.


I have long felt that Osteen and his ilk have nothing to do with Christianity, except for a few pieces of scripture:

Mat 24:3-5,10-11 (NIV) ..."Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" Jesus answered, "Watch out that no one deceives you, for many will come in my name,.. At that time many will turn away from the faith... and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people."

Matthew 7:15-23  "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will [a]know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will [c]know them by their fruits.

And ESPECIALLY:

2 Peter 2: "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
 
2013-12-04 04:06:15 PM  

jso2897: But I will no more axiomatically accept that a "Christian's" views are valid by my standards than I would a Nazi's.


Good for you. Aren't you just precious.
 
2013-12-04 04:07:39 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: The last two popes and mother Teresa all believed that there would always be poor people, so there was no reason to do anything to improve their lot in life.


I'm wondering if you have any handy quotes from them that support your understanding of them?
 
2013-12-04 04:08:48 PM  
 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat


 House Republicans narrowly pushed through a bill on Thursday that slashes billions of dollars from the food stamp program, over the objections of Democrats and a veto threat from President Obama. The bill, written under the direction of the House majority leader, Eric Cantor, Republican of Virginia, would cut $40 billion from the food stamp program over the next 10 years.   http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/20/us/politics/house-passes-bill-cutti n g-40-billion-from-food-stamps.html

 I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink

 Democrats spent much of Tuesday arguing against the cuts to WIC already included in the bill, and all can be expected to vote against further cuts.

Republicans also offered several amendments that would cut the Food for Peace program. Rep. Paul (R-Ariz.) proposed cutting it by $200 million, offered a separate amendment to cut it by $100 million, and Rep. Broun proposed zeroing out the program entirely, a $940 million cut.  Recorded votes on all of these are expected later Wednesday.Other votes are expected on amendments to cut $180 million from the McGovern-Dole International Food for Education and Child Nutrition program grants, and cut $175 million from the Foreign Agricultural Service. Both of these amendments are also from Broun.http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house/166653-republicans -looking -to-gut-wic-food-programs-in-amendment-debate

 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in

In the House, though, and specifically among Republican members and the GOP base, the very idea of any kind of pathway to citizenship is seen as a deal killer for immigration reform. Based on the polling, though, it seems rather obvious that this is yet another issue where Republicans are out of step with the country as a whole.

GOP presidential contender Herman Cain walked back comments Sunday that he made a day earlier when he called for a deadly electric fence on the United States-Mexico border. "That's a joke," Cain said on NBC's "Meet the Press.   http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/16/electric-fence-remark - was-a-joke-cain-says/

I needed clothes and you did not clothe me

  COSTA MESA, Calif. -- Army veteran Don Matyja was getting by alright on the streets of this city tucked in Southern California suburbia until he got ticketed for smoking in the park. Matyja, who has been homeless since he was evicted nearly two years ago, had trouble paying the fine and getting to court - and now a $25 penalty has ballooned to $600.  The ticket is just one of myriad new challenges facing Matyja and others living on the streets in Orange County, where a number of cities have recently passed ordinances that ban everything from smoking in the park to sleeping in cars to leaning bikes against trees in a region better known for its beaches than its 30,000 homeless people.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/08/cities-homeless-regu lations-b udgets_n_1947719.html

In 2012, thanks to Republicans ending the tax break Michigan residents can receive for charitable giving, most people predicted that charitable giving would plummet. It wasn't a risky prediction, of course. It's common sense. It was a move made by the GOP to pay, in part, for a massive tax break they gave to corporations. Well, the results are in and, as predicted, the impact is having profound effects on the ability of Michigan's food pantries to keep up with ever increasing demands on their services.  http://www.eclectablog.com/2013/11/michigan-republicans-ending-of-tax - credits-for-charitable-giving-coming-home-to-roost.html

"Things like the federal shutdown and all of this wrangling in Washington over the debt ceiling aren't helping," Palmer said of the Chronicle's research. "Those kinds of things don't help people feel charitable or feel like giving as much as they gave in the past." Other findings included the growing significance of so-called "donor-advised-funds," like Fidelity Charitable, which have allowed rich philanthropists to "park" money and receive an immediate tax benefit even though the funds may not actually be given to a particular charity until weeks or months later.  http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-charitable-giving-2013 1 021,0,3104421.story#ixzz2mXeoGoAU

I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.

For all the wrong done during this stormy session of the General Assembly, the greatest wrong remains what lawmakers have chosen not to do: expand Medicaid.
Republicans who lead the legislature have balked out of spite. The expansion is a key part of President Obama's Affordable Care Act, and they want no part of "Obamacare." Republican Gov. Pat McCrory has said he would consider expansion after North Carolina's "broken" Medicaid system is fixed.
The Republicans' reasons for opting out vary, but the effect is same: A forgoing of federal funds that will leave many low-income people uninsured and will cost the state and hospitals more for uncompensated care. Those consequences did not stop North Carolina and 14 other states - all with Republican governors - from refusing to participate.http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/06/06/2944030/nc-needs-t o-look-again- at-medicaid.html#storylink=cpy

The folly and cruelty of refusing the Medicaid expansion have been much discussed. But the cost of also saying no to a state-run exchange has not been so apparent or much debated. Its effects didn't begin to materialize until last week, when Blue Cross and Blue Shield and Coventry Health Care posted their plans and premium prices on the North Carolina exchange being run by the federal government.Considering the meager competition - Blue Cross is the only statewide provider, and Coventry is offering plans in only 39 of the state's 100 counties - the premium prices are surprisingly reasonable after federal subsidies are included. But while rates may be affordable, it's harder to calculate how much may be missing from North Carolina plans compared with those at the same price in states that fully cooperated with the new law.http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/10/05/3256323/ncs-cost-of-obsti nance- of-obamacare.html#storylink=cpy

(August 2012) Since 2002, the United States has had the highest incarceration rate in the world. Although prison populations are increasing in some parts of the world, the natural rate of incarceration for countries comparable to the United States tends to stay around 100 prisoners per 100,000 population. The U.S. rate is 500 prisoners per 100,000 residents, or about 1.6 million prisoners in 2010, according to the latest available data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS).  Men make up 90 percent of the prison and local jail population, and they have an imprisonment rate 14 times higher than the rate for women.2 And these men are overwhelmingly young: Incarceration rates are highest for those in their 20s and early 30s. Prisoners also tend to be less educated: The average state prisoner has a 10th grade education, and about 70 percent have not completed high school.3 Incarceration rates are significantly higher for blacks and Latinos than for whites. In 2010, black men were incarcerated at a rate of 3,074 per 100,000 residents; Latinos were incarcerated at 1,258 per 100,000, and white men were incarcerated at 459 per 100,000.http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2012/us-incarcerati on.aspx

"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment
 
2013-12-04 04:10:08 PM  
Just to recap:

My wanting insurance policies to cover contraceptive medication... that's an assault on religious freedom.

Someone directly attacking the Pope himself... that's standing up for freedom!

Am I getting this right?
 
2013-12-04 04:10:27 PM  
STOP proselytizing! The bible commands you!

"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words....
 
2013-12-04 04:14:51 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Serious Black: "In 1935, more than 50% of the elderly population lived in poverty. Today that poverty rate stands officially at 9.4%."

That is an interesting statistic, but it may not "prove" exactly what you think it proves. I am not arguing that Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid are not good and worthwhile programs, but there is a causation/correlation issue that would have to accounted for, and a problem of metrics drift. The workforce has changed significantly in that time, for instance, so the number of women with no income is radically different then than it is today.

As your own link makes clear: "~~The U.S. Census Bureau did not begin tracking the poverty rate until 1959. On top of that, data for individuals aged 65 and older are not available for the years 1960 through 1965."

As a simple illustration, an elderly mother of the local bank owner in 1935 would register as having no income and therefore 'living in poverty', but her wealthy son bought her a home, and a maid and someone to cook her very nice meals every day. While an elderly woman today with Social security income and a modest pension left from her dead husband could be above the federal poverty line.

More important, and why your stat isn;t quite the proof I think you hope it would be is that that super high poverty rate includes people who relied on CHARITY for survival. "Dependent poverty among the old grew inexorably, from 23 percent in 1910 to 40 percent in 1930, and 50 percent in 1935." So there is a bit of a double count. Half of those 'in poverty' were being taken care of by private charity.

Again, not disputing at all that improvements have not been made, and no question that poverty is way down from the peak in the 30s. But as your own cite correctly points out "We found no official statistics for the rate of elderly poverty for the year 1935, only academic projections, and making apples-to-apples comparisons between eras is difficult."


Sure, there's no real way to prove that Social Security or Medicare actually caused that reduction in poverty, especially since there are no official numbers dating back to the 1930s. That's why I spelled out that we'd have to exclude other potential causes first. I think we can exclude private charity as a source of reducing that poverty. The rate of giving to charitable organizations has stubbornly remained right around 2% of GDP every year dating back to the 1960s. If we're specifically looking at those over 65, the work force participation rate for those people is almost certainly fairly steady and low dating all the way back to the 30s since most older people like retiring and may only have a part-time job at the most. That would suggest that paychecks from work are likely not the result of this decline.

As for whether the rate of poverty for the elderly back in the 1930s is correct, I don't think the exact number is all that relevant since nobody could possibly dispute that the elderly poverty rate was astronomical back then without being criminally insane.
 
2013-12-04 04:15:56 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: technicolor-misfit: So, while there are a lot of good Christians who don't believe that bullshiat, maybe they ought to take issue with the ones who are preaching it and creating the perception, rather than other people who take note and criticize it.

I'm not sure where to go with your weird view of the obligations of one group of Christians to squelch another group who thinks differently, or how you think that would be a good idea, and I have no idea how you think Joel Osteen trumps the Vatican for instance, but I don't see any point fighting about it.



I'm not saying they have an obligation to take issue with them.

I'm saying that if they don't care enough to make the distinction when other Christians are LOUDLY and FREQUENTLY saying "this is what Christianity is," then they have much right to get all butthurt when other people don't take the time to make the distinction for them.

It's not "squelching" someone to offer a counter position. And it's a good idea because if you don't want people thinking "Christians believe X," then when a bunch of Christians are on TV saying "Christians totally believe X," then it's a good idea to say "No... not really."

The way it goes now is:

GUY 1: "Christians believe marriage is between a man and a woman! Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!!! We, as Christians, believe this country ought to stand strong against the homosexual agenda to subvert the sanctity of holy matrimony!!!"

GUY 2: "....."

GUY 1: "The Bible said 'the poor will be with us always.' You can't make poverty go away.. and it ain't the government's job to enforce Christian charity. It has to be done out of people's hearts. It don't mean nothing if it's enforced at the barrel of a gun!!!"

GUY 2: "...."

GUY 1: "Everything wrong with this country can be traced directly to taking God out of our schools! Until we put the Lord back at the center of our communities, in the heart of our schools and ask Him to look over our children each and every day, this country is going to remain on a road to ruin. What more important lesson can children learn in those classrooms than that of the love that their Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ has for them, and the sacrifice He made for them on the cross."

GUY 2: "...."

GUY 3: "Wow... Christians sure believe a lot of stupid shiat these days."

GUY 2: "NOT ALL CHRISTIANS THINK THAT WAY, ASSHOLE!!!!"


I'm not saying GUY 2 has an obligation to take GUY 1 to task. But, it sure is interesting that he doesn't have a problem taking GUY 3 to task.
 
2013-12-04 04:17:44 PM  
In fairness, there are Buddhists who follow their own version of the Prosperity Gospel, and figure that the poor and set upon were just bad people and it is their karma sorting itself out.

The Nichiren do their bit to make the teachings of the Dharma moot.

F*cking Nichiren...
 
2013-12-04 04:19:57 PM  

jake_lex: The Republicans just don't want that Catholic vote, do they.


Newt Gingrich is going to have to switch religions again. Also it's probably about time for a new wife.
 
2013-12-04 04:20:58 PM  

FarkedOver: technicolor-misfit: FarkedOver: If this pope were genuinely concerned with the plight of the wealthy he would dump all the church's assets, property and gold and use the proceeds to enrich the flock.  This will never happen.  The pope is concerned with keeping parishioners numbers up!


I've heard several people make this point and it's just childish low-hanging fruit. One man, even the Pope, can't single-handedly undo decades of institutional inertia with the wave of his hand.

It's just cheap cynicism masquerading as some sort of keen insight or shabby facade of wisdom

 "I can knock down anybody and criticize them no matter what they do! Because everything is bullshiat and you can't put one over on me!"

So they should live in opulence while most of their adherents live in abject poverty?  Ok.


I hate to point this out but there are many thousands of people who have lived their lives in service of the Catholic Church. This includes those who have taken vows of poverty.
Were the Pope to divest the Church's assets he would leave these people literally homeless.

I understand your railing at the opulence of the Catholic Church but the immediacy of your solution would not result in the net gain you think.

Think of the Church as a job creator - only the employees take vows to work nowhere else for life, often to accept no salary, without any other safety net than what the Church provides upon retirement - which is generally somewhere between the ages of 80-90.

Similarly? The Pope has far less authority to divest of Church holdings than, say, a CEO. Unless you think putting the Shroud of Turin on E-bay to help feed the masses (for example - much of the wealth of the church is in priceless artifacts) wouldn't result in his immediate ouster as a heretic.

If you want to wish for something? why not hope that the library is made more public?
 
2013-12-04 04:21:59 PM  

FarkedOver: STOP proselytizing! The bible commands you!


Umm. Yeah. Actually, the bible is very clear that you are supposed to go out and spread the word of Jesus and proselytize. What you are reffering to is instruction on how to PRAY.

~~
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mark 16:15
And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
Matthew 24:14  ESV
And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Psalm 96:3  ESV
Declare his glory among the nations, his marvelous works among all the peoples!
2 Timothy 3:16  ESV
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,


I could go on, there are many, MANY verses exhorting Christians to go forth and spread the word. I'm afraid you may misunderstand this point if you think proselytizing is 'unchristian' or against the teaching of the bible. Not really sure how you could have arrived at that misunderstanding.
 
2013-12-04 04:23:33 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: FarkedOver: STOP proselytizing! The bible commands you!

Umm. Yeah. Actually, the bible is very clear that you are supposed to go out and spread the word of Jesus and proselytize. What you are reffering to is instruction on how to PRAY.

~~
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mark 16:15
And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
Matthew 24:14  ESV
And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Psalm 96:3  ESV
Declare his glory among the nations, his marvelous works among all the peoples!
2 Timothy 3:16  ESV
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

I could go on, there are many, MANY verses exhorting Christians to go forth and spread the word. I'm afraid you may misunderstand this point if you think proselytizing is 'unchristian' or against the teaching of the bible. Not really sure how you could have arrived at that misunderstanding.


Twas a joke haha
 
2013-12-04 04:24:37 PM  

parasol: Think of the Church as a job creator


Nope. I'll just want to make them suffer more.
 
2013-12-04 04:27:50 PM  
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know My name is the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon thee."

--Ron Paul
 
2013-12-04 04:29:37 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: FarkedOver: STOP proselytizing! The bible commands you!

Umm. Yeah. Actually, the bible is very clear that you are supposed to go out and spread the word of Jesus and proselytize. What you are reffering to is instruction on how to PRAY.

~~
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mark 16:15
And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
Matthew 24:14  ESV
And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Psalm 96:3  ESV
Declare his glory among the nations, his marvelous works among all the peoples!
2 Timothy 3:16  ESV
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

I could go on, there are many, MANY verses exhorting Christians to go forth and spread the word. I'm afraid you may misunderstand this point if you think proselytizing is 'unchristian' or against the teaching of the bible. Not really sure how you could have arrived at that misunderstanding.


I think I see the problem
Catholics do not proselytize

In fact? It's a fairly common "inside joke" we don't actually know the bible all that well and, really, we worship Mary.

In the minutia of Christianity Catholics are often looked at askance for our basic laziness regarding things biblical - and we are quite well known for beating it out of the parking lot on Sunday having done our bare minimum attendance.
 
2013-12-04 04:31:10 PM  

Serious Black: I don't think the exact number is all that relevant since nobody could possibly dispute that the elderly poverty rate was astronomical back then without being criminally insane.


I agree. My main observation is that there is a lack of concrete or conclusive evidence that "government" has substantively addressed the problem of poverty. At this point, there's no way of knowing. Government has been in the charity business for generations now. There is simply no way to untangle the myriad overlapping, complementary and contradictory effects of public and private poverty programs much less the changes in economy, workforce, demographics, migration, technology, and the whole myriad of contributing factors. Not to mention that the country was fundamentally different in the 30s than it is today.

We cannot say that private charity would have risen to the challenge in the absence of government social programs, nor can we say that it would not have.

What I *CAN* say is that contrary to a few Farker's comments upstream, we can say that government *IS* already in the charity and poverty business, and that the problem has not been 'fixed' by government.

Serious Black: The rate of giving to charitable organizations has stubbornly remained right around 2% of GDP every year dating back to the 1960s.


Isn't that about the time we started the "War on Poverty"?
 
2013-12-04 04:32:24 PM  

FarkedOver: Twas a joke haha


Woops. Sorry. The tone of the thread overall was interfering with my sensors.
 
2013-12-04 04:33:43 PM  

parasol: I think I see the problem
Catholics do not proselytize

In fact? It's a fairly common "inside joke" we don't actually know the bible all that well and, really, we worship Mary.

In the minutia of Christianity Catholics are often looked at askance for our basic laziness regarding things biblical - and we are quite well known for beating it out of the parking lot on Sunday having done our bare minimum attendance.


I was raised catholic.  It was fun because my parents wanted to get the fark out of church as fast as possible just as badly as I did.  We never discussed the bible or religion in the house and during lent, friday was pizza night! WOO HOO!
 
2013-12-04 04:34:42 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: What I *CAN* say is that contrary to a few Farker's comments upstream, we can say that government *IS* already in the charity and poverty business, and that the problem has not been 'fixed' by government.


It sure as hell has lessened the social harm, and your ignorance of that is a testament to how much improved poverty is in the U.S. today because of it.

You're like the people who don't get vaccines for their children because they've never seen the pre-vaccine world.
 
2013-12-04 04:36:06 PM  

FarkedOver: parasol: Think of the Church as a job creator

Nope. I'll just want to make them suffer more.


So? Taking a vow of poverty, chastity and obedience for life based on nothing but faith in order to (maybe) work with the sick, the young, the dying - and often in places far from home - isn't enough suffering?

I mean, as a gig, it isn't the same as working for Microsoft or NASA but, there are people who choose that path - give them some credit - even if it is "man, not for me at all, tyvm"
 
2013-12-04 04:39:43 PM  
ikanreed: ~~It sure as hell has lessened the social harm, and your ignorance of that is a testament to ...

You might want to step back and take a look around, maybe read what has been posted, get a feel for what's going on before you just jump in making assumptions about whose ignorant of what. It will prevent you from looking silly.

ikanreed: You're like the people who don't get vaccines for their children because they've never seen the pre-vaccine world.

Oh. I see. You are one of those. You don't even ATTEMPT to have something to base your comments on. Just find a recent post and start jumping in spewing made-up nonsense willy-nilly hoping to get someone to pay attention to you.

Do you know what a seagull is? A seagull is a bird-brained creature who swoops in uninvited and makes a lot of meaningless noise while crapping all over the place. Can you guess why I bring that up?
 
2013-12-04 04:40:09 PM  

FarkedOver: parasol: I think I see the problem
Catholics do not proselytize

In fact? It's a fairly common "inside joke" we don't actually know the bible all that well and, really, we worship Mary.

In the minutia of Christianity Catholics are often looked at askance for our basic laziness regarding things biblical - and we are quite well known for beating it out of the parking lot on Sunday having done our bare minimum attendance.

I was raised catholic.  It was fun because my parents wanted to get the fark out of church as fast as possible just as badly as I did.  We never discussed the bible or religion in the house and during lent, friday was pizza night! WOO HOO!


:)
I have clear memories of tromping around flowerbeds in patent leather church shoes waiting for the grown-ups to finish talking so we could go eat pancakes after mass
(also sang in the choir for a few years much later)
 
2013-12-04 04:40:49 PM  

tinderfitles: jake_lex: meat0918: More evidence in the "American's do not worship the God of the New Testament" column.

Just leave the jackboots at home when you come for the non-believers please.  They are so unflattering to the full waisted figures that are the epitome of American Christianity.

Yeah, that's the thing that strikes me here.  What Pope Francis is proposing here is not radical in any sense: he's just saying "Let's refocus our energy on what is important and vital in Christianity and not so much on gays and/or abortion."   It just shows how many people would rather just derp about the gays than actually have to do something that might require them to help out the poors.

Personally I think its less of Pope Francis being a genuinely "good guy" and more of a schism between the loose coalition of catholics/christians here. Think about how for the last thirty years, catholic and christians have been rather united, especially looking back and seeing how there was a very real segment of protestants afraid of a catholic president (JFK). So all of these Mega-Church preachers/politicians realize that while they have operated with the unspoken consent of The Roman Catholic Church, for the first time there is actually friction between the two power bases and it has scared the shiat out of them. So how do they attempt to keep their power base (and more importantly money) flowing? Attempt to isolate the pope by using political rhetoric like calling him a liberal.


Catholics are Christians. I'm not sure what you mean by Catholics/Christians. Who do you think that guy on the cross is? True, the American cardinals and bishops have been acting more like fundamentalists in their political stances, and this Pope is not. But in what universe are Catholics not Christian?
 
2013-12-04 04:41:44 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: ikanreed: ~~It sure as hell has lessened the social harm, and your ignorance of that is a testament to ...

You might want to step back and take a look around, maybe read what has been posted, get a feel for what's going on before you just jump in making assumptions about whose ignorant of what. It will prevent you from looking silly.

ikanreed: You're like the people who don't get vaccines for their children because they've never seen the pre-vaccine world.

Oh. I see. You are one of those. You don't even ATTEMPT to have something to base your comments on. Just find a recent post and start jumping in spewing made-up nonsense willy-nilly hoping to get someone to pay attention to you.

Do you know what a seagull is? A seagull is a bird-brained creature who swoops in uninvited and makes a lot of meaningless noise while crapping all over the place. Can you guess why I bring that up?


because you looked in a mirror?
you do have a way of nattering on sometimes BP
 
2013-12-04 04:42:22 PM  
several of my favorite Latin Americans are named Jesus
 
2013-12-04 04:45:27 PM  

parasol: you do have a way of nattering on sometimes BP


Perhaps. Often as a result of a pronounced tendency to respond to people who address me directly.

But as I often and frequently say, I urge anyone who doesn't want to read my posts to use the Ignore function. I won't be offended, and it's probably best for everyone.
 
2013-12-04 04:47:29 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Serious Black: The rate of giving to charitable organizations has stubbornly remained right around 2% of GDP every year dating back to the 1960s.

Isn't that about the time we started the "War on Poverty"?


Yes. However, I lack any credible numbers about how much money Americans gave to charity before the 1960s, so that is a limiting factor.
 
2013-12-04 04:50:08 PM  

parasol: BojanglesPaladin: FarkedOver: STOP proselytizing! The bible commands you!

Umm. Yeah. Actually, the bible is very clear that you are supposed to go out and spread the word of Jesus and proselytize. What you are reffering to is instruction on how to PRAY.

~~
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mark 16:15
And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
Matthew 24:14  ESV
And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Psalm 96:3  ESV
Declare his glory among the nations, his marvelous works among all the peoples!
2 Timothy 3:16  ESV
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

I could go on, there are many, MANY verses exhorting Christians to go forth and spread the word. I'm afraid you may misunderstand this point if you think proselytizing is 'unchristian' or against the teaching of the bible. Not really sure how you could have arrived at that misunderstanding.

I think I see the problem
Catholics do not proselytize

In fact? It's a fairly common "inside joke" we don't actually know the bible all that well and, really, we worship Mary.

In the minutia of Christianity Catholics are often looked at askance for our basic laziness regarding things biblical - and we are quite well known for beating it out of the parking lot on Sunday having done our bare minimum attendance.


Looking at the Fundamentalists, not turning the Bible into a graven image to worship above God's Creations seems sort of smart.
 
2013-12-04 04:51:15 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: parasol: you do have a way of nattering on sometimes BP

Perhaps. Often as a result of a pronounced tendency to respond to people who address me directly.

But as I often and frequently say, I urge anyone who doesn't want to read my posts to use the Ignore function. I won't be offended, and it's probably best for everyone.


I would not put you on ignore - it isn't of any value
Forgive my being curt but I was dismayed that you seem unfamiliar with the growing popularity of the prosperity gospel as a justification to marginalize the poor

This Pope - so far - seems headed into a new territory that will require more self-examination and less assumptive judgement - it will likely be uncomfortable for many
 
2013-12-04 04:54:11 PM  

odinsposse: jake_lex: The Republicans just don't want that Catholic vote, do they.

They really, really do actually. That's why they are backing the Catholic universities fighting against contraception coverage in the ACA. Catholics are pretty closely split between Republicans and Democrats so it's a not-impossible population for them to capture.

The problem is that straight Catholic doctrine is not ideologically pure enough for Republicans. The official doctrine opposes abortion and gay marriage, which they like, but it also supports unions, opposes the death penalty, advocates for the poor, and discourages warmongering.

Like most religious people Catholics usually pick and choose what parts of their faith they follow and what they pay attention to. Republicans would like Catholics to pay attention to the parts they like but the Pope is drawing focus to the parts they don't like. It will be interesting to see how they deal with it because there doesn't seem to be a good way to blow off the Pope without hurting the support they currently have with Catholics.


I still think that the pope might get killed by some nutter that thinks he's lying about Jeebus teachings.

Seriously. He's just preaching the gospels. I know, it's the parts you don't like. The parts that show prosperity gospel (in particular) to be heresy. Trick being, your ancestors chose to be heretics. STFU and own the heresy.
 
2013-12-04 04:54:49 PM  

DeaH: Looking at the Fundamentalists, not turning the Bible into a graven image to worship above God's Creations seems sort of smart.


i.usatoday.net

Seen above: Irony.
 
2013-12-04 05:11:44 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: jso2897: But I will no more axiomatically accept that a "Christian's" views are valid by my standards than I would a Nazi's.

Good for you. Aren't you just precious.


We are all precious. But nobody gets a blank check from me - not even Christians. Sorry.
 
2013-12-04 05:16:03 PM  

DeaH: tinderfitles: jake_lex: meat0918: More evidence in the "American's do not worship the God of the New Testament" column.

Just leave the jackboots at home when you come for the non-believers please.  They are so unflattering to the full waisted figures that are the epitome of American Christianity.

Yeah, that's the thing that strikes me here.  What Pope Francis is proposing here is not radical in any sense: he's just saying "Let's refocus our energy on what is important and vital in Christianity and not so much on gays and/or abortion."   It just shows how many people would rather just derp about the gays than actually have to do something that might require them to help out the poors.

Personally I think its less of Pope Francis being a genuinely "good guy" and more of a schism between the loose coalition of catholics/christians here. Think about how for the last thirty years, catholic and christians have been rather united, especially looking back and seeing how there was a very real segment of protestants afraid of a catholic president (JFK). So all of these Mega-Church preachers/politicians realize that while they have operated with the unspoken consent of The Roman Catholic Church, for the first time there is actually friction between the two power bases and it has scared the shiat out of them. So how do they attempt to keep their power base (and more importantly money) flowing? Attempt to isolate the pope by using political rhetoric like calling him a liberal.

Catholics are Christians. I'm not sure what you mean by Catholics/Christians. Who do you think that guy on the cross is? True, the American cardinals and bishops have been acting more like fundamentalists in their political stances, and this Pope is not. But in what universe are Catholics not Christian?


I suppose I should clear that up. When I typed "Catholics" I generally refer to Roman Catholics, while "Christian" I use as a general term for everything else because there is no real blanket term for the rest of denominations that isn't "Not Roman Catholic". So in conversation I just take a step back to the most general form possible. Coming from the south its the only real way to not offend people because people might be baptist, protestant, non-denominational, etc while still discussing differences among theology.
 
2013-12-04 05:18:11 PM  
I for one love the trolly nature of the new Pope and how he's basically hijacked Catholic teaching which was too heavily focused on social issues like gay marriage and abortions, and started to steer the focus back to actually helping people instead of trying to pretend to be Protestants in fancy outfits.

The fact that the Catholic leadership here in this country seems to be ignoring that and continuing on with their regular derp is why I've taken the Catholic Church less seriously in recent years.
 
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