If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Washington Times)   Pilots say that the use of autopilot leaves them feeling useless "like a piece of luggage." Which means they'll be charged $50 to fly and then put on the wrong plane   (washingtontimes.com) divider line 21
    More: Scary, luggage, Asiana Airlines, UPS, original, National Transportation Safety Board  
•       •       •

535 clicks; posted to Business » on 04 Dec 2013 at 8:22 AM (31 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



21 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-12-04 08:23:58 AM
Quit your biatching, I would love to have a button that did my job for me.  Especially if they couldn't actually replace me with the button.
 
2013-12-04 08:37:56 AM
And then have their pockets gone through by guys on the tarmac looking for anything small and valuable
 
2013-12-04 08:40:05 AM

EvilEgg: Quit your biatching, I would love to have a button that did my job for me.  Especially if they couldn't actually replace me with the button.


Until the button doesn't work and you're trying to remember how to do something you haven't done in months. While hurtling to the ground at several hundred miles per hour
 
2013-12-04 08:41:16 AM
Oh come on, someone still has to open the cockpit door to let the terrorists in.
 
2013-12-04 08:41:57 AM
You drive a bus with wings. Get used to $19000 a year.
 
2013-12-04 08:48:17 AM
The AP is a tool.  Poor pilots use their tools poorly.

This is a major topic of conversation in the industry.  Technology is moving quickly on the flight decks of airplanes as well, and aviation is working on how to integrate it most effectively.

There are a few philosophies on the subject, I subscribe to the "Children of the Magenta" (video explanation) philosophy where the level of automation should match the task at hand, that includes being proficient all the way down to level zero of no Auto Pilot or Auto Throttles.

The fact is an AP is a hugely powerful safety tool if used properly.  It provides decreased fatigue and can provide an opportunity for increased situational awareness.  It's the over reliance that's the problem, and pilots need to be diligent and professional enough to realize if they are and remedy it.
 
2013-12-04 08:50:01 AM
I was under the impression that autopilot was optional, and the pilot could actually fly the plane if they chose.
 
2013-12-04 08:59:05 AM
You try pushing "take off", "autopilot", "land". In that order.
 
2013-12-04 09:29:22 AM

stratagos: And then have their pockets gone through by guys on the tarmac looking for anything small and valuable


How does routine, everyday flying keep your recovery skills sharp?

Put them in catastrophic situations in simulators with some regularity and call it a day.
 
2013-12-04 09:43:47 AM

tricycleracer: stratagos: And then have their pockets gone through by guys on the tarmac looking for anything small and valuable

How does routine, everyday flying keep your recovery skills sharp?

Put them in catastrophic situations in simulators with some regularity and call it a day.


I think you quoted the wrong post, unless you consider people taking crap from your luggage to be a catastrophic event ;)
 
2013-12-04 11:03:40 AM

mrlewish: You drive a bus with wings. Get used to $19000 a year.


I remember when my father was a "flight engineer" (third in charge, after the pilot and co-pilot) and he made $24,000 a year, back in the 70's. And that wasn't even commercial flying. I wonder what those kinds of guys make now?
 
2013-12-04 11:21:04 AM

FlyPanAm: The AP is a tool.  Poor pilots use their tools poorly.

This is a major topic of conversation in the industry.  Technology is moving quickly on the flight decks of airplanes as well, and aviation is working on how to integrate it most effectively.


It's not just this industry either. I recall an article a while back about a study or a job? where they had people essentially sit and watch for a red light and then press a button. Most of the time, the person wanted to do something more often than the conditions called for. Humans don't have a "sleep mode" the same way computers do, and instead attempt to maintain a steady level of alertness over time. As more and more everyday things become automated (cars is the first in my mind), the ability of an operator to take over in the case of an emergency is harder and harder to do the less emergencies there are.

More than likely what you'd end up with is one pilot overseeing the AP of several planes so the mind is kept active, but obviously that could cause other problems.
 
2013-12-04 11:56:36 AM
99% of the time, over-reliance on automation is really code for "pilot has forgotten how automation works, and thinks the magic computer brain is looking after some aspect of the flight that is--in the mode that he's selected--actually under pilot control."  That's the more frequently-occurring problem.

Yes, having the A/P handle too many things too often will dull your skills.  Maybe the airlines should move to an Air Force-style model of constant training + proficiency checks you have to pass every 30/60/90 days to maintain your mission-capable status.
 
2013-12-04 12:24:00 PM
Uuuuhhhh... "I don't like autopilot because I tune out and that's a problem"? REALLY?

You have ONE job. If that's your complaint, then you're not very good at your job, are you? Take some responsibility? What's the real problem here?

/Washington Times article, so probably shouldn't be taken super seriously....
 
2013-12-04 12:30:59 PM

Thurston Howell: 99% of the time, over-reliance on automation is really code for "pilot has forgotten how automation works, and thinks the magic computer brain is looking after some aspect of the flight that is--in the mode that he's selected--actually under pilot control."  That's the more frequently-occurring problem.

Yes, having the A/P handle too many things too often will dull your skills.  Maybe the airlines should move to an Air Force-style model of constant training + proficiency checks you have to pass every 30/60/90 days to maintain your mission-capable status.


My brother is a pilot for a passenger airline (won't say which but it's a low cost one) and they have to have constant training and health and skill checks. Not sure what the interval is but it seems to be about every 6 months? So I'm not actually sure lack of training is the problem. Although I suppose there is poor training out there as anyone who has taken any kind of corporate training can attest.
 
2013-12-04 01:25:07 PM

cryinoutloud: mrlewish: You drive a bus with wings. Get used to $19000 a year.

I remember when my father was a "flight engineer" (third in charge, after the pilot and co-pilot) and he made $24,000 a year, back in the 70's. And that wasn't even commercial flying. I wonder what those kinds of guys make now?


Uh, probably nothing, as the flight engineer position was eliminated from most airliner cockpits by the late '80s. I don't think even 747s have an engineer's station anymore, because ECAM/EICAS relays all that information to the pilot without the need for a third crewman to monitor dozens of gauges and switches at once. Unless you're flying older aircraft for the military, or you work for a local airline in a third-world country, there's no work for engineers anymore.
 
2013-12-04 02:09:40 PM

Needlessly Complicated: Thurston Howell: 99% of the time, over-reliance on automation is really code for "pilot has forgotten how automation works, and thinks the magic computer brain is looking after some aspect of the flight that is--in the mode that he's selected--actually under pilot control."  That's the more frequently-occurring problem.

Yes, having the A/P handle too many things too often will dull your skills.  Maybe the airlines should move to an Air Force-style model of constant training + proficiency checks you have to pass every 30/60/90 days to maintain your mission-capable status.

My brother is a pilot for a passenger airline (won't say which but it's a low cost one) and they have to have constant training and health and skill checks. Not sure what the interval is but it seems to be about every 6 months? So I'm not actually sure lack of training is the problem. Although I suppose there is poor training out there as anyone who has taken any kind of corporate training can attest.


There's all kinds of things to stay current in.  Under Part 121 regs (governing airlines) one must log 3 takeoffs and landings every 90 days and a trip to the sim every 6, 9, or 12 months depending on the airline's internal training program.  Many airlines require captains to go through ground and flight school every 6 months (every 12 for FOs), but these are airline requirements, not FAA part 121 regs.  Plus a flight medical every 12 months (or every 6 if you are a left-seater).

The regulations assume that the vast majority of Part 121 operations will be flying IFR, so they make no reference to things like requiring CAT II/III currency or a schedule for same.  Most airlines internal procedures will require you to cover that in your sim time if you're not logging a suitable number of actual CAT IIs/IIIs.

Frequency aside, I think there's room for a lot of improvement on the automation (both in training and actual design/operation), because that is where the majority of the newsworthy farkups occur.  Most pilots never forget how to fly; they get farked up because they think the automation is doing something (or not doing something), and it's not immediately apparent to them that their comprehension of the situation is divergent from reality.
 
2013-12-04 02:10:03 PM

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: cryinoutloud: mrlewish: You drive a bus with wings. Get used to $19000 a year.

I remember when my father was a "flight engineer" (third in charge, after the pilot and co-pilot) and he made $24,000 a year, back in the 70's. And that wasn't even commercial flying. I wonder what those kinds of guys make now?

Uh, probably nothing, as the flight engineer position was eliminated from most airliner cockpits by the late '80s. I don't think even 747s have an engineer's station anymore, because ECAM/EICAS relays all that information to the pilot without the need for a third crewman to monitor dozens of gauges and switches at once. Unless you're flying older aircraft for the military, or you work for a local airline in a third-world country, there's no work for engineers anymore.


I am not sure but I think the 747-100, 200 and 300 were certified with a three man crew so unless they have been re-certified they would still need the FE. However, almost everyone except the third world airlines have retired the 100 and 200 series due to less range at greater fuel usage along with maintenance issues. You can pick up 747-200 for not much money (relatively speaking)
 
2013-12-04 06:56:40 PM

sdd2000: You can pick up 747-200 for not much money (relatively speaking)


Well I want one that's specifically ready for Hajj...
 
2013-12-04 07:21:05 PM

cryinoutloud: mrlewish: You drive a bus with wings. Get used to $19000 a year.

I remember when my father was a "flight engineer" (third in charge, after the pilot and co-pilot) and he made $24,000 a year, back in the 70's. And that wasn't even commercial flying. I wonder what those kinds of guys make now?


Pay has been going down since the early 90's.
 
2013-12-04 07:48:47 PM

sdd2000: I am not sure but I think the 747-100, 200 and 300 were certified with a three man crew so unless they have been re-certified they would still need the FE. However, almost everyone except the third world airlines have retired the 100 and 200 series due to less range at greater fuel usage along with maintenance issues. You can pick up 747-200 for not much money (relatively speaking)


If the planes have been upgraded with glass cockpits, I would imagine the FE chair would have been removed as redundant. You're going to have to re-certify with the new instrumentation anyway, so might as well remove the extra crew station as part of the upgrade.
 
Displayed 21 of 21 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report