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(RealClear)   Finally some good news for Detroit: You're eligible for the largest municipal bankruptcy in U.S. history   (realclear.com) divider line 151
    More: Fail, Judges' Rules, U.S., Detroit, restructuring plans, Municipal Employees, Detroit River, Detroit Institute of Arts, bankruptcy  
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3354 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Dec 2013 at 2:15 PM (40 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-03 03:33:38 PM

GhostfacedFiddlah: hermitage_deux: generally speaking... debts with interest cannot be repaid, because the dollars equal to the amount of interest accrued do not exist in the system. Only the principle amount loaned exists in the system.

so, it doesn't matter who borrows (Dems/Repubs) or for why (school budgets/prisons)...
the money to repay the interest doesn't exist in the system. you can only borrow more money to pay the interest or.. default. those are the only two options in the near term.  and default is the only option in the long term.

Perhaps you could explain this?  When I account for my personal loans, I include interest in my "system", and my bank includes interest in their system.  And if you're talking about actual dollars, then in bankruptcy, no money exists in the system.  It doesn't matter if it's interest or principal.

I'm missing something...


You are not... but furthermore, the money is not liquid... it's in roads, paid out in wages (or in bribes to union bosses) and given away to "contractors" (who often times were buddy buddy with those awarding the contracts). The cash is gone, all you have is a pile of concrete rubble inside the physical borders of the "City of Detroit".
 
2013-12-03 03:34:24 PM
I'm way in debt and need bankruptcy. But I don't need to sell my Corvette though, cause it won't permanently fix the problem, so just go ahead and let me keep it.
 
2013-12-03 03:34:43 PM

rjkline: Democrats promise everyone the world to get elected, but have no idea what to do when the bills are due. It's actually hilarious to watch. By gosh it's our RIGHT to have EVERYTHING!  It's just like when little kids tell their parents to "JUST WRITE A CHECK" for whatever they may want after their parents explain to them that they cannot afford it. Republicans want the same nice stuff that libtards want, but they just happen to understand that you cannot have things that you cannot afford. Amazingly simple concept that my young kids already know, but apparently its too complicated for Harvard educated Democrats to grasp.


On the off chance you're not just a troll, care to hazard a guess as to how much of the current Federal debt is Bush-era crap put on the national credit card?

Or are you one of those "fiscal conservatives" who thought we could pay for 2 wars and 2 massive expansions of federal government with tax cuts?
 
2013-12-03 03:40:00 PM

Orgasmatron138: Smeggy Smurf: How many Democrat run cities in bankruptcy does that make now?

/financial responsibility has a conservative bias

Considering what Reagan and Bush did to the national debt, you may want to can that shiat.


I'll just leave this here for you to read...

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/national-debt-up-6-trillion-since-obama- to ok-office/
 
2013-12-03 03:41:27 PM

Smeggy Smurf: /financial responsibility has a conservative bias


...which a roundabout way of saying that the GOP isn't conservative ...
 
2013-12-03 03:43:12 PM

rjkline: Republicans want the same nice stuff that libtards want, but they just happen to understand that you cannot have things that you cannot afford.


i560.photobucket.com
 
2013-12-03 03:44:20 PM

shaunmark: I'm way in debt and need bankruptcy. But I don't need to sell my Corvette though, cause it won't permanently fix the problem, so just go ahead and let me keep it.


Kinda' like all that valuable art owned by Detroit.
 
2013-12-03 03:46:54 PM

rjkline: Democrats promise everyone the world to get elected, but have no idea what to do when the bills are due. It's actually hilarious to watch. By gosh it's our RIGHT to have EVERYTHING!  It's just like when little kids tell their parents to "JUST WRITE A CHECK" for whatever they may want after their parents explain to them that they cannot afford it. Republicans want the same nice stuff that libtards want, but they just happen to understand that you cannot have things that you cannot afford.  Amazingly simple concept that my young kids already know, but apparently its too complicated for Harvard educated Democrats to grasp.


No... we want to tax people.  Republicans are the ones who block that.  We just happen to understand that larger groups of people gathered together have more power than individuals to demand a lower rate on the things we want, and that the people, ostensibly, control the government (until Citizens United, which we believe needs to be overturned with a constitutional amendment).
 
2013-12-03 03:48:17 PM
Nice trade policies there America! You're bankrupting yourself.
 
2013-12-03 03:48:18 PM

j__z: reillan: Smeggy Smurf: /financial responsibility has a conservative bias

Do you read anything not put out by Murdoch?

http://www.ibtimes.com/us-presidents-which-party-create-more-jobs-de mo cratic-or-republican-408508

Wonder how many of those jobs are in the private sector?  (They say non farm jobs.)  Seems kind of silly to start with FDR considering that was war time/post war.  Guess before 1933 its not considered modern times.


Look at the numbers for everything post-FDR.  It's still way better.  Clinton was the one who really kicked it in the rear.
 
2013-12-03 03:52:53 PM

PunGent: rjkline: Democrats promise everyone the world to get elected, but have no idea what to do when the bills are due. It's actually hilarious to watch. By gosh it's our RIGHT to have EVERYTHING!  It's just like when little kids tell their parents to "JUST WRITE A CHECK" for whatever they may want after their parents explain to them that they cannot afford it. Republicans want the same nice stuff that libtards want, but they just happen to understand that you cannot have things that you cannot afford. Amazingly simple concept that my young kids already know, but apparently its too complicated for Harvard educated Democrats to grasp.

On the off chance you're not just a troll, care to hazard a guess as to how much of the current Federal debt is Bush-era crap put on the national credit card?

Or are you one of those "fiscal conservatives" who thought we could pay for 2 wars and 2 massive expansions of federal government with tax cuts?


He's one of those fiscal conservatives who, although he voted for Bush twice and continues to vote for conservatives, didn't approve of the wars per se, but he generally approves of having a strong military budget which includes intervening in Iran. Plus that military stuff trickles down to the surplus store he visits every weekend.

He of course supports the Ryan budget, even though there's no feasible way the Ryan budget actually works and does nothing to reduce the deficit, which is why it can't even get to the appropriations stage. The thought of cutting off those goddamn welfare queens gives him a little woody.

He loves tax cuts, because he got that check for $300 from Bush, nevermind that some really really really rich guys made out like bandits. Because it all trickles down. Besides, one day he'll be rich!

Even though he regularly votes clowns who don't understand deficits or debt into office, he personally doesn't live beyond his means, and only spends any extra money he has on MREs, guns and ammo in the fervent hope that one day all his stupid stockpiling will actually have a reason to exist. After all there's nothing better than making sure you've got yours while tens of millions of people starve to death.

And it's high time Obama took the blame for everything, Bush was President 5 years ago so he's no longer responsible for anything that happened in the past.
 
2013-12-03 03:53:00 PM
www.proyouthpages.com
Have I an offer for you!
 
2013-12-03 03:53:27 PM

Eagles409: Orgasmatron138: Smeggy Smurf: How many Democrat run cities in bankruptcy does that make now?

/financial responsibility has a conservative bias

Considering what Reagan and Bush did to the national debt, you may want to can that shiat.

I'll just leave this here for you to read...

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/national-debt-up-6-trillion-since-obama- to ok-office/


I presume you left it there to bolster Orga's point?
 
2013-12-03 03:56:35 PM

bdub77: He's one of those fiscal conservatives who, although he voted for Bush twice and continues to vote for conservatives, didn't approve of the wars per se, but he generally approves of having a strong military budget which includes intervening in Iran.

5.media.bustedtees.cvcdn.com

 
2013-12-03 03:56:47 PM
Worse yet, Stafford is too inconsistent to get the Lions to the Super Bowl. They'd probably be lucky to win the division that's all but being handed to them.

Regarding city government, perhaps a Michael Moore documentary blaming the problems on corporate something or other would be in order.
 
2013-12-03 03:58:26 PM

asquian: I presume you left it there to bolster Orga's point?


For some reason, I'm amused you referred to a user named Orgasmatron as "Orga".
 
2013-12-03 03:59:08 PM

rjkline: [derp]


What ended up breaking Detroit was not decades of Democratic policy, but rather complex borrowing by the city.  The same thing brought down Jefferson County in Alabama.

Had the city not entered into those loans, it would still be solvent.  Of course, it would still be plagued by urban decay and corruption, but that is a different matter.  It could be argued that it could have stumbled on for another decade or two like that before the Chinese swooped in took over.
 
2013-12-03 04:07:10 PM

asquian: Eagles409: Orgasmatron138: Smeggy Smurf: How many Democrat run cities in bankruptcy does that make now?

/financial responsibility has a conservative bias

Considering what Reagan and Bush did to the national debt, you may want to can that shiat.

I'll just leave this here for you to read...

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/national-debt-up-6-trillion-since-obama- to ok-office/

I presume you left it there to bolster Orga's point?


No, I left it there because he made it sound like only republicans run up the debt.
 
2013-12-03 04:08:26 PM
in somewhat related news... the Insane Clown Posse says they will not be holding the annual gathering of the juggalos in Southern Illinois... and that they have found a new location... and it is a 'doozy'.  I'll leave it to everyone to draw their own conclusions from this news.  (I report, you decide.)

Should I stay or should I Faygo?
 
2013-12-03 04:10:01 PM
This article really helps explain why Detroit is in the trouble they are in.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/10/detroit-1-million-check_n_3 73 3285.html
 
2013-12-03 04:14:43 PM
 
2013-12-03 04:15:43 PM
It'll be interesting to see what happens when Seattle runs Boeing off.  I think they have enough tech companies to be alright, and their demographics are completely different, but I think in fifty years it'll be a good compare-and-contrast exercise.

Detroit's city government eventually just ran out of other people's money.
 
2013-12-03 04:19:11 PM

hermitage_deux: generally speaking... debts with interest cannot be repaid, because the dollars equal to the amount of interest accrued do not exist in the system. Only the principle amount loaned exists in the system.



Actually, this is true only when the debt is issued in a admiralty court (with a fringed flag), and the debtor's name is written in all CAPS with no middle initial. Otherwise, the debt can be paid off with gold delivered by the greys from the secret base in Antarctica.
 
2013-12-03 04:20:16 PM

Dinjiin: rjkline: [derp]

What ended up breaking Detroit was not decades of Democratic policy, but rather complex borrowing by the city.  The same thing brought down Jefferson County in Alabama.

Had the city not entered into those loans, it would still be solvent.  Of course, it would still be plagued by urban decay and corruption, but that is a different matter.  It could be argued that it could have stumbled on for another decade or two like that before the Chinese swooped in took over.


Sorry buddy, denial is not just a river in Egypt: link
 
2013-12-03 04:21:40 PM

PunGent: Or are you one of those "fiscal conservatives" who thought we could pay for 2 wars and 2 massive expansions of federal government with tax cuts?


Isn't this similar to how people are magically able to afford healthcare insurance because they are forced to buy it by law now? Both sides of the coin are hopelessly corrupted by their agendas and affiliations, but everybody's too busy covering the deck chairs on the titanic with red and blue beach towels to notice the real problem.
 
2013-12-03 04:32:36 PM
What is the cost of corruption?  Sure old businesses have left (automotive) but why have  new ones not chosen to locate in Detroit?

What are the added costs for dealing with a corrupt government when running a business? How do you recruit people to work there? Do you say "we would like you to take over our Detroit operation and we realize the school system is substandard due to rampant corruption so we will have to pay you extra to put your kids in private schools etc etc. etc".
 
2013-12-03 04:34:25 PM

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: Can't we sacrifice Charlie LeDuff for a couple grand of debt relief?


He's not that bad. And his book kicked ass.
 
2013-12-03 04:36:08 PM

hasty ambush: What is the cost of corruption?  Sure old businesses have left (automotive) but why have  new ones not chosen to locate in Detroit?

What are the added costs for dealing with a corrupt government when running a business? How do you recruit people to work there? Do you say "we would like you to take over our Detroit operation and we realize the school system is substandard due to rampant corruption so we will have to pay you extra to put your kids in private schools etc etc. etc".


I'd go with - "You can grow 20 acres of sweet corn in your backyard."
 
2013-12-03 04:44:39 PM

Whatchoo Talkinbout: Too bad Coleman's not around to see his handiwork.


Coleman was a fiscal conservative. He actually cut the city's debt up until the city decided to build modern new auto plants for the auto manufacturers.

Then NAFTA turned that into a very, very bad investment.

It was the more recent credit default swaps deals that would supposedly "save money" that killed the city. However the banks made out like bandits, so it's all good, right?
 
2013-12-03 04:45:26 PM
Thanks for the answers all, much appreciated.
 
2013-12-03 04:46:16 PM

WhatIsLongPork: hermitage_deux: generally speaking... debts with interest cannot be repaid, because the dollars equal to the amount of interest accrued do not exist in the system. Only the principle amount loaned exists in the system.


Actually, this is true only when the debt is issued in a admiralty court (with a fringed flag), and the debtor's name is written in all CAPS with no middle initial. Otherwise, the debt can be paid off with gold delivered by the greys from the secret base in Antarctica.


As a sovereign person, I have no debt and no courts, admiralty or otherwise, apply to me.
 
2013-12-03 04:46:42 PM
For years and years and years democrat union thugs told democrat politicians what they wanted. For years and years and years democrat politicians told democrat unions that they'll get what they want if they vote for democrats. For years and years and years public sector unions lived the great life. The unions wanted more money more money more money. The democrat politician wanted votes. None of the above was smart enough or cared enough to think of what would happen if the money stopped flowing into the govt.
 
2013-12-03 04:47:48 PM
So they are finally going to sell the plantation.  Makes me want to break out and sing:  Camptown Races.
 
2013-12-03 04:49:27 PM

Fusilier: hasty ambush: What is the cost of corruption?  Sure old businesses have left (automotive) but why have  new ones not chosen to locate in Detroit?

What are the added costs for dealing with a corrupt government when running a business? How do you recruit people to work there? Do you say "we would like you to take over our Detroit operation and we realize the school system is substandard due to rampant corruption so we will have to pay you extra to put your kids in private schools etc etc. etc".

I'd go with - "You can grow 20 acres of sweet corn in your backyard."


You would have to throw in a tractor
 
2013-12-03 04:49:57 PM

Death Whisper: Sorry buddy, denial is not just a river in Egypt: link


And I've read other articles that suggested that Detroit does have enough of a tax base to limp along, although it would be with such degraded services that many people would still avoid it.

Also, a blog called stuffblackpeopledontlike.blogspot.com isn't exactly what I would call a legitimate citation link.
 
2013-12-03 04:50:02 PM

GhostfacedFiddlah: hermitage_deux: generally speaking... debts with interest cannot be repaid, because the dollars equal to the amount of interest accrued do not exist in the system. Only the principle amount loaned exists in the system.

so, it doesn't matter who borrows (Dems/Repubs) or for why (school budgets/prisons)...
the money to repay the interest doesn't exist in the system. you can only borrow more money to pay the interest or.. default. those are the only two options in the near term.  and default is the only option in the long term.

Perhaps you could explain this?  When I account for my personal loans, I include interest in my "system", and my bank includes interest in their system.  And if you're talking about actual dollars, then in bankruptcy, no money exists in the system.  It doesn't matter if it's interest or principal.

I'm missing something...


Hi,
what i mean is .. in a simplified model, with one lender and one borrower... (as it is with the usa and federal reserve bank...  or foreign governments and the IMF )

if i loan you $100, and require $110 back..
you can't repay it.
u can't repay 110... if there's only 100 in circulation.

ur only option is to take a new loan for 10 to repay the interest on the first loan.
or, declare bankruptcy where your assets will be confiscated.  btw, the bank doesn't make $10 loans...  $100 minimum plz.

they will take the payments as long as (government of your choice) makes them, and take the collateral as soon as they stop... for example, many small Greek Islands are now for sale.
 
2013-12-03 04:51:16 PM

hasty ambush: Fusilier: hasty ambush: What is the cost of corruption?  Sure old businesses have left (automotive) but why have  new ones not chosen to locate in Detroit?

What are the added costs for dealing with a corrupt government when running a business? How do you recruit people to work there? Do you say "we would like you to take over our Detroit operation and we realize the school system is substandard due to rampant corruption so we will have to pay you extra to put your kids in private schools etc etc. etc".

I'd go with - "You can grow 20 acres of sweet corn in your backyard."

You would have to throw in a tractor


How 'bout 40 acres AND a mule?

Oo
 
2013-12-03 04:57:46 PM

hasty ambush: What is the cost of corruption?  Sure old businesses have left (automotive) but why have  new ones not chosen to locate in Detroit?

What are the added costs for dealing with a corrupt government when running a business? How do you recruit people to work there? Do you say "we would like you to take over our Detroit operation and we realize the school system is substandard due to rampant corruption so we will have to pay you extra to put your kids in private schools etc etc. etc".


You don't.  The big thing that's been killing Detroit (other than corruption and death of auto industry and white flight) has been that it's way too easy to move into the suburbs instead, cut your (local) taxes in half, and get way better schools and better services.

So anyone who moves into "Detroit" is actually moving into Ann Arbor or somewhere in the suburbs (or they're getting sweetheart deals to move into downtown).
 
2013-12-03 05:01:04 PM

meyerkev: hasty ambush: What is the cost of corruption?  Sure old businesses have left (automotive) but why have  new ones not chosen to locate in Detroit?

What are the added costs for dealing with a corrupt government when running a business? How do you recruit people to work there? Do you say "we would like you to take over our Detroit operation and we realize the school system is substandard due to rampant corruption so we will have to pay you extra to put your kids in private schools etc etc. etc".

You don't.  The big thing that's been killing Detroit (other than corruption and death of auto industry and white flight) has been that it's way too easy to move into the suburbs instead, cut your (local) taxes in half, and get way better schools and better services.

So anyone who moves into "Detroit" is actually moving into Ann Arbor or somewhere in the suburbs (or they're getting sweetheart deals to move into downtown at which point all of their employees live out in the suburbs somewhere and drive in).


FTFM.

/Seriously, Detroit's problem is that traffic is too good.
 
2013-12-03 05:05:45 PM

Orgasmatron138: Smeggy Smurf: How many Democrat run cities in bankruptcy does that make now?

/financial responsibility has a conservative bias

Considering what Reagan and Bush did to the national debt, you may want to can that shiat.


In this thread liberals ignore that spending starts in the legislative branch.
 
2013-12-03 05:07:25 PM

reillan: sure haven't: Can someone please explain what this means? I know it's a big deal... but exactly what does it mean when a city gets bankruptcy protection??

In the case of Detroit, it appears to mean that they can eliminate retirees' pensions in order to pay off the cities debts.  So yeah, great news.


They still have their 401 (a) accounts. .. that promised a 7.9% gain. The only defined pension plan that promised defined pay outs. Imagine if your 401 (k) promised that return. Bernie Maddoff is proud.
 
2013-12-03 05:08:06 PM

Orgasmatron138: Smeggy Smurf: How many Democrat run cities in bankruptcy does that make now?

/financial responsibility has a conservative bias

Considering what Reagan and his democratic congressand Bush and Obama did to the national debt, you may want to can that shiat.


FTFY
 
2013-12-03 05:09:02 PM

dwrash: AngryDragon: meanmutton: Pants full of macaroni!!: The lesson is clear: democrats must NEVER AGAIN be allowed to hold ANY public office in the United States.

All kidding aside, the lesson that really should be clear -- any time you have a single party running government for a long period of time without a legitimate challenge, shiat gets farked up.

Yup.  This is the lesson.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Exactly why there should never be lifetime politicians also.

Along with agreeing to unfunded future liabilities... union bosses and politicians should be taken out and publicly flogged for negotiating these types of contracts.


Yet we constantly trash congress for forcing the post office to fund its liabilities.
 
2013-12-03 05:09:58 PM

j__z: reillan: Smeggy Smurf: /financial responsibility has a conservative bias

Do you read anything not put out by Murdoch?

http://www.ibtimes.com/us-presidents-which-party-create-more-jobs-de mo cratic-or-republican-408508

Wonder how many of those jobs are in the private sector?  (They say non farm jobs.)  Seems kind of silly to start with FDR considering that was war time/post war.  Guess before 1933 its not considered modern times.


It also pretends that economies are static points in time whose labor market is solely decided by the president. There is no lag for economic policies at all.
 
2013-12-03 05:10:29 PM

BullBearMS: However the banks made out like bandits, so it's all good, right?


thegrio.files.wordpress.com


Detroiters Elect Ex-Con Brian Banks As State Rep
"Banks, a Democrat and lifelong Detroiter, won a seat in Lansing as a state representative for the 1st District, representing the east side of Detroit, Harper Woods, and the tony Grosse Pointes. He won 68 percent of the vote to Republican Dan Schulte's 32 percent.

Banks, 35, was convicted eight times between 1998 and 2004 of writing bad checks and credit card fraud.

His slogan was "You can Bank on Banks."

"It's time to elect a leader, with experience and passion, who will fight for you," he wrote on his website."

Michigan voters approved a constitutional amendment in 2010 that bans anyone convicted of a felony in the last 20 years from running for office - but the caveat is the conviction has to be "related to the person's official capacity while holding any elective office."
 
2013-12-03 05:11:59 PM
 
2013-12-03 05:14:33 PM

rjkline: Democrats promise everyone the world to get elected, but have no idea what to do when the bills are due. It's actually hilarious to watch. By gosh it's our RIGHT to have EVERYTHING!  It's just like when little kids tell their parents to "JUST WRITE A CHECK" for whatever they may want after their parents explain to them that they cannot afford it. Republicans want the same nice stuff that libtards want, but they just happen to understand that you cannot have things that you cannot afford.  Amazingly simple concept that my young kids already know, but apparently its too complicated for Harvard educated Democrats to grasp.


I thought harvard was an Austrian economics school.
 
2013-12-03 05:15:56 PM

shirtsbyeric: How could this be???????

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-i-refused-to-let-detroit-go-bankru pt /


Did he say "I refuse to let Detroit go bankrupt, period"  or "if you like your municipal solvency you can keep it, period"?
 
2013-12-03 05:16:34 PM

OrangeSnapper: Frizbone: This bankruptcy resulted in people's decision to buy more reliable Japanese cars than unreliable American cars.

[pics4.city-data.com image 553x277]
Where more reliable Japanese cars come from.


www.miataturbo.net
 
2013-12-03 05:22:37 PM

hasty ambush: BullBearMS: However the banks made out like bandits, so it's all good, right?

[thegrio.files.wordpress.com image 617x347]


Banks, 35, was convicted eight times between 1998 and 2004 of writing bad checks and credit card fraud.


I'm referring more to the way that the Detroit bankruptcy is trying to get rid of the pensions for the little guys while simultaneously paying the banks 100% for their dirty interest rate swaps that screwed over the city.

Just like AIG's bailout paid the banks 100% of AIG's Credit Default Swaps instead of making them take a percentage.
 
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