Do you have adblock enabled?
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(MSNBC)   Gov. LePage (Olive-R twisted enough to vote for this asshole, Maine) decides to bring child labor back, complains that ban on slavery is hindering state's unemployment rate   (msnbc.com) divider line 227
    More: Sick, Gov. LePage, working age, Department of Labor, child labour  
•       •       •

4202 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Dec 2013 at 2:19 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



227 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-12-03 10:41:32 AM  
What the Dickens?

www.danypepin.com
 
2013-12-03 10:45:55 AM  
Well we're degrading the quality of public education so much that kids will only end up as brainless worker drones anyway.  This just speeds up the process.
 
2013-12-03 10:47:52 AM  

gaslight: What the Dickens?

[www.danypepin.com image 500x750]


Cheap labor conservatives love them some cheap labor.
 
2013-12-03 10:58:27 AM  
Maine Gov. Paul LePage (R), who championed a measure in March 2011 that would not only allow kids as young as 12 to get jobs, but would also allow employers to pay children less than the minimum wage.

OK, US - you do know that the rest of the world is noticing that, while you're the richest nation on earth, you're also working hard to be the most socially backward, right?  And you're working hard to create a State where the haves are filthy rich while the have-nots are slaves, with no real middle class.  Right?  You do see that.  Right?
 
2013-12-03 11:16:23 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Maine Gov. Paul LePage (R), who championed a measure in March 2011 that would not only allow kids as young as 12 to get jobs, but would also allow employers to pay children less than the minimum wage.

OK, US - you do know that the rest of the world is noticing that, while you're the richest nation on earth, you're also working hard to be the most socially backward, right?  And you're working hard to create a State where the haves are filthy rich while the have-nots are slaves, with no real middle class.  Right?  You do see that.  Right?


This sounds a lot like socialism and unfreedoms to me.
 
2013-12-03 11:21:44 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Maine Gov. Paul LePage (R), who championed a measure in March 2011 that would not only allow kids as young as 12 to get jobs, but would also allow employers to pay children less than the minimum wage.

OK, US - you do know that the rest of the world is noticing that, while you're the richest nation on earth, you're also working hard to be the most socially backward, right?  And you're working hard to create a State where the haves are filthy rich while the have-nots are slaves, with no real middle class.  Right?  You do see that.  Right?


I've been seeing it since Reagan took office.  Something will have to give eventually.  Unfortunately it will probably be really ugly when it happens.
 
2013-12-03 12:38:41 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: I've been seeing it since Reagan took office.  Something will have to give eventually.  Unfortunately it will probably be really ugly when it happens.


Yep...like the massive Federal intrusion into every remaining aspect of American life it doesn't already intrude into as Americans recoil in horror from the GOP. Unintended consequences...how do they work?
 
2013-12-03 01:08:39 PM  
Greenlit finally.  You only get a Republican supporting child labour thread a few times a season, I'm glad this one didn't get passed-up.
 
2013-12-03 01:11:33 PM  
I thought the minimum wage was supposed to be a training wage
 
2013-12-03 01:12:30 PM  
I'm sure Jesus would approve.
 
2013-12-03 01:17:44 PM  
I can't bother being shocked any more.
 
2013-12-03 01:32:05 PM  

Stone Meadow: Marcus Aurelius: I've been seeing it since Reagan took office.  Something will have to give eventually.  Unfortunately it will probably be really ugly when it happens.

Yep...like the massive Federal intrusion into every remaining aspect of American life it doesn't already intrude into as Americans recoil in horror from the GOP. Unintended consequences...how do they work?


Maybe it's still too early, maybe I haven't had enough coffee, maybe I'm just dense... but I can't figure out what this sentence is supposed to indicate.
 
2013-12-03 01:35:38 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: OK, US - you do know that the rest of the world is noticing that, while you're the richest nation on earth, you're also working hard to be the most socially backward, right?  And you're working hard to create a State where the haves are filthy rich while the have-nots are slaves, with no real middle class.  Right?  You do see that.  Right?


ourtowntustin.files.wordpress.com


Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Maine's governor, The Honorable William J. Le Petomaine.
 
2013-12-03 01:39:03 PM  

timujin: Stone Meadow: Marcus Aurelius: I've been seeing it since Reagan took office.  Something will have to give eventually.  Unfortunately it will probably be really ugly when it happens.

Yep...like the massive Federal intrusion into every remaining aspect of American life it doesn't already intrude into as Americans recoil in horror from the GOP. Unintended consequences...how do they work?

Maybe it's still too early, maybe I haven't had enough coffee, maybe I'm just dense... but I can't figure out what this sentence is supposed to indicate.


I think you're grossly overestimating the power of coffee.
 
2013-12-03 01:39:31 PM  

Stone Meadow: Yep...like the massive Federal intrusion into every remaining aspect of American life it doesn't already intrude into as Americans recoil in horror from the GOP.


You already tried secession over slavery once. How did that work out?
 
2013-12-03 01:49:17 PM  

Somacandra: Stone Meadow: Yep...like the massive Federal intrusion into every remaining aspect of American life it doesn't already intrude into as Americans recoil in horror from the GOP.

You already tried secession over slavery once. How did that work out?


I did? Please remind me how I did that. I grant that I'm old...but I'm not THAT old.

Oh, and apologies for trimming too much out of the post I quoted. What I meant to highlight is that LaPage's efforts to exploit states' authority to set labor conditions and restrictions may have the unintended consequence of stimulating the Fed gov't to pass legislation that further intrudes into the states' authority, the exact opposite effect of what he wants.
 
2013-12-03 02:03:46 PM  
Guys, we are just getting KILLED by the Vietnamese and Chinese over here. I know at least two dozen children under the age of 10 who come to me every day, they say, bdub, we can't get work anywhere. We can sew. We have small fingers that make it easy to lace up shoes. We learned painting in day care and can easily apply noxious glue to undersoles. But the labor laws won't let us. And even if we could work, we can't work 14-16 hour shifts, and we can't even get paid a wage that is competitive with the Burmese or Indonesians or Pakistanis.

I know dozens of these poor children. They sit in class, lethargic, tired of the day to day classroom. Many of them are underfed. Why? No MONEY.  They don't need lessons in math or science or history or writing. They need JOBS!

The next generation of manufacturing is here, available to us, at our fingertips, tugging at our pockets, sitting underutilized in day care centers. What the hell is a creative curriculum anyway? And yet, we do nothing. And those goddamn Asian kids are destroying what little we have left of manufacturing in this country.

Please, kill these idiotic child labor laws and minimum wage laws. Do it for the childrens. Do it for the country.
 
2013-12-03 02:04:07 PM  
So introducing a flood of lower-paid children to compete with unemployed adults is going to do what now?
 
2013-12-03 02:21:13 PM  

Uranus Is Huge!: So introducing a flood of lower-paid children to compete with unemployed adults is going to do what now?


Have the umemployment rate go up and then blame Obama since it went up on his watch so it is his fault.

There should be a new bumper sticker that reads: '20_ _: Vote NO on Republicans' and you fill in the spaces depending on the election year.
 
2013-12-03 02:23:27 PM  
there's that laser like focus we've all been hearing about!
 
2013-12-03 02:23:53 PM  

bdub77: Guys, we are just getting KILLED by the Vietnamese and Chinese over here. I know at least two dozen children under the age of 10 who come to me every day, they say, bdub, we can't get work anywhere. We can sew. We have small fingers that make it easy to lace up shoes. We learned painting in day care and can easily apply noxious glue to undersoles. But the labor laws won't let us. And even if we could work, we can't work 14-16 hour shifts, and we can't even get paid a wage that is competitive with the Burmese or Indonesians or Pakistanis.

I know dozens of these poor children. They sit in class, lethargic, tired of the day to day classroom. Many of them are underfed. Why? No MONEY.  They don't need lessons in math or science or history or writing. They need JOBS!

The next generation of manufacturing is here, available to us, at our fingertips, tugging at our pockets, sitting underutilized in day care centers. What the hell is a creative curriculum anyway? And yet, we do nothing. And those goddamn Asian kids are destroying what little we have left of manufacturing in this country.

Please, kill these idiotic child labor laws and minimum wage laws. Do it for the childrens. Do it for the country.


www.quickmeme.com
(Raising the Blazin' Saddles references)
 
2013-12-03 02:25:04 PM  
Employ all the kids you want, Maine, you're practically far enough away to be Canada and very little benefits are being seen from your state anyway. What's the major export, lobster?
 
2013-12-03 02:27:08 PM  
Remember, this genius called for top bracket tax cuts claiming that Millionaires living in Maine were becoming "an endangered species" and had declined 90% in the past 20% years due to high taxes when actual demographic data showed they had actually INCREASED 70% during that time.   And the Guy who made his own version of Mitt Romney's infamous 47% comment nearly a year after it cost Mitt the election.


So what I'm sayin' here is this guy ain't exactly the sharpest pencil in the box, or a big fan of "rality based" statistics.
 
2013-12-03 02:27:11 PM  
I was a child laborer, I had a paper route as a kid...
 
2013-12-03 02:29:00 PM  
The fact that republicans are not dragged out into the street and shot en mass shows how doomed this world is.  We will make hell on earth, we will vote it in place a piece at a time.

Its what 51% of the world wants.
 
2013-12-03 02:29:31 PM  
What? How would flooding the market with desperate uneducated and easily exploited workers help unemp....Ohh. Wow, he's kinda evil.
 
2013-12-03 02:30:07 PM  
LePage said he's not suggesting 12-year-old kids work 40-hour work weeks, but he's comfortable with a 12-year-old working up to 10 hours a week and/or a 14-year-old working up to 15 hours a week.

And as we all know, businesses are honest actors and would never ever dream of breaking this law.
 
2013-12-03 02:31:17 PM  
Libertarianism, with its lofty rhetoric about "liberty" and "freedom" can have some appeal in the abstract.

But this is how it looks in the real world.  It's just a tired old philosophy that exists to justify and perpetuate our plutocracy in the name of "economic freedom."   It's the today's version of social darwinism.
 
2013-12-03 02:32:12 PM  
I'm all in favor of child labor. The kids around my apartment are all sniffing glue and stealing hubcaps... AND THE OLDEST ONE IS 9!
 
2013-12-03 02:32:23 PM  
 HOLY CRAP I just RTFA.
He even LOOKS evil. WTF! C'mon people, it couldn't be more obvious if his name was Wormtongue.
www.msnbc.com
 
2013-12-03 02:32:24 PM  

mrshowrules: Greenlit finally.  You only get a Republican supporting child labour thread a few times a season, I'm glad this one didn't get passed-up.


I really hope Maine Dems/Indies nominate someone sane enough to kick this guy's ass in a vote.
 
2013-12-03 02:32:42 PM  

I_Am_Weasel: bdub77: Guys, we are just getting KILLED by the Vietnamese and Chinese over here. I know at least two dozen children under the age of 10 who come to me every day, they say, bdub, we can't get work anywhere. We can sew. We have small fingers that make it easy to lace up shoes. We learned painting in day care and can easily apply noxious glue to undersoles. But the labor laws won't let us. And even if we could work, we can't work 14-16 hour shifts, and we can't even get paid a wage that is competitive with the Burmese or Indonesians or Pakistanis.

I know dozens of these poor children. They sit in class, lethargic, tired of the day to day classroom. Many of them are underfed. Why? No MONEY.  They don't need lessons in math or science or history or writing. They need JOBS!

The next generation of manufacturing is here, available to us, at our fingertips, tugging at our pockets, sitting underutilized in day care centers. What the hell is a creative curriculum anyway? And yet, we do nothing. And those goddamn Asian kids are destroying what little we have left of manufacturing in this country.

Please, kill these idiotic child labor laws and minimum wage laws. Do it for the childrens. Do it for the country.

[www.quickmeme.com image 505x404]
(Raising the Blazin' Saddles references)


Well what you need to understand is tha Lepage isn't a professional politician he's just a simple businessman,  a man of of the land, a man of the common clay of the Northeast.  You know...a moron.
 
2013-12-03 02:33:55 PM  

Triple Oak: Employ all the kids you want, Maine, you're practically far enough away to be Canada and very little benefits are being seen from your state anyway. What's the major export, lobster?


newsbusters.org
 
2013-12-03 02:35:06 PM  
I was picking on my 8 year old and telling her she would have to work Thanksgiving Day at Walmart so I'm getting a kick...
 
2013-12-03 02:35:49 PM  
While the governor is stretching a bit to push for 12 year olds to get a job. I do think that making it easier for 15/16 year olds to get work experience even at a bit below minimum wage would benefit those kids in the long run.  Right now its near impossible for 16 year olds to get a job as all the college kids have pushed them out of low positions.
 
2013-12-03 02:35:58 PM  

Uranus Is Huge!: So introducing a flood of lower-paid children to compete with unemployed adults is going to do what now?


Drive the cost of labor down so the job creators will earn more profits or something, I guess.
It's like some people learned nothing from the 1890's-1929, and would like to do that all over again.

When nobody can afford products or services anymore, what is going to happen to the stock prices and profits?
Look in your history books starting sometime in 1929 for more information.
 
2013-12-03 02:36:28 PM  
The question is, would Randolph Scott support this?
 
2013-12-03 02:36:40 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Maine Gov. Paul LePage (R), who championed a measure in March 2011 that would not only allow kids as young as 12 to get jobs, but would also allow employers to pay children less than the minimum wage.

OK, US - you do know that the rest of the world is noticing that, while you're the richest nation on earth, you're also working hard to be the most socially backward, right?  And you're working hard to create a State where the haves are filthy rich while the have-nots are slaves, with no real middle class.  Right?  You do see that.  Right?


The current republican party sees places like india and mexico as an ideal.  Two classes.  The wealthy who have all the money and power and get what they want unopposed, and the working poor who get paid pennies and a pat on the head for their labor.  Look at the choices they make in this context, and suddenly you'll notice that everything they're doing is to get us closer to that "ideal".
 
2013-12-03 02:37:38 PM  
It's like Dickens, Swift, and Sinclair never existed.
 
2013-12-03 02:37:55 PM  

MindStalker: While the governor is stretching a bit to push for 12 year olds to get a job. I do think that making it easier for 15/16 year olds to get work experience even at a bit below minimum wage would benefit those kids in the long run.  Right now its near impossible for 16 year olds to get a job as all the college kids have pushed them out of low positions.


All that is going to do is bump the college kids out of the work force because there will always be some poor kid to pay slave wages to.
 
2013-12-03 02:39:51 PM  

MindStalker: While the governor is stretching a bit to push for 12 year olds to get a job. I do think that making it easier for 15/16 year olds to get work experience even at a bit below minimum wage would benefit those kids in the long run.  Right now its near impossible for 16 year olds to get a job as all the college kids have pushed them out of low positions.


Yes, if there's one thing this sluggish economy needs, it's a way for businesses to fire workers who they're paying full salaries to and replace with cheap, disposable, less-than-minimum-wage-paid-minors, who likely have even less of a clue as to what their rights are than the college kids do.

WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG.
 
2013-12-03 02:40:25 PM  

MindStalker: While the governor is stretching a bit to push for 12 year olds to get a job. I do think that making it easier for 15/16 year olds to get work experience even at a bit below minimum wage would benefit those kids in the long run.  Right now its near impossible for 16 year olds to get a job as all the college kids have pushed them out of low positions.



NOOOPPPEEEEE.  Fark Welfare-queen Businesses that want me to subsidize their labor costs.  If they are filling a FTE slot on your roster and producing for the company at the same rate as other employees.  Minimum wage is just what it means.   and Min wage SHOULD be the full $15.71 an hour for everybody.   It's utter bullshiat that the  extra $500 week per full-time employee is what makes or breaks the profitability of a store.
 
2013-12-03 02:40:42 PM  

buzzcut73: Uranus Is Huge!: So introducing a flood of lower-paid children to compete with unemployed adults is going to do what now?

Drive the cost of labor down so the job creators will earn more profits or something, I guess.
It's like some people learned nothing from the 1890's-1929, and would like to do that all over again.

When nobody can afford products or services anymore, what is going to happen to the stock prices and profits?
Look in your history books starting sometime in 1929 for more information.


But this time they can store all their wealth offshore and incorporate in Singapore and have a vacation home in Italy. They'll be ok.

And after they have crashed the economy and bankrupted the government, they'll return, promising the scraps of salvation. And we will take it because we don't have anything else.

Unless we do something first.
 
2013-12-03 02:40:49 PM  
FTA:  As was the case with the measure two years ago, the Maine governor supports a minimum wage of $5.25 per hour for children - $2 less than the minimum wage for adults - which LePage would call a "training wage."

"Training wage" in the esteemed governor's eyes is akin to a porn actress using a butt-plug on herself in preparation to performing anal intercourse for the first time in her life with Lexington Steele.

WTF is wrong with you, Maine????
 
2013-12-03 02:42:00 PM  
What specifically does he hope to accomplish with this? Is there some task that just isn't getting done because there are no tiny hands to do it? Is there some industry that will finally flourish once it can employ children? Will the economy of Maine significantly improve once this legislation is passed?
 
2013-12-03 02:44:55 PM  

Stone Meadow: Marcus Aurelius: I've been seeing it since Reagan took office.  Something will have to give eventually.  Unfortunately it will probably be really ugly when it happens.

Yep...like the massive Federal intrusion into every remaining aspect of American life it doesn't already intrude into as Americans recoil in horror from the GOP. Unintended consequences...how do they work?


You're trolling, maybe, but I once had to explain why I tended to vote Democratic in those terms.

The Democrats had held the Legislature in this state for so long that they had sort of become corrupt. Not in the sense that there was widespread theft, graft, bribery, or other criminal activity above and beyond the occasional hand in the cookie jar, but if you were a Democrat in the Legislature, you tended to be very comfy in your job. That meant you might run through Legislation without sufficient public comment, or in closed committee, which might be against the rules of the Legislature; you'd take shortcuts, you'd basically run the state as if the rules of running a state didn't really apply to you.

The Republicans managed to take power a few election cycles ago, and we went from corrupt to incompetent. These weren't economic what'll-it-cost lower-taxes Republicans; these were Jesusland all-taxes-are-evil Obama-is-Satan Republicans. LePage is one of them - put steeples on schools, privatize breathing, and bring back child labor. And this isn't even the first time he's suggested bringing back child labor.

So I had to explain that given the choice between corrupt and incompetent, I had to choose corrupt. At least corrupt knows what it's doing. Incompetent tries to introduce charter schools to the state by bringing in ten different companies to run them - and ALL TEN OF THEM fail to meet state educational standards. Of course, I'd rather not have corrupt, either, but at least corrupt can run the damn state.

As far as Federal intrusion goes, it's pretty clear that it isn't party that leads to authoritarianism, it's power. Republicans don't exactly have their noses clean when it comes to intrusive legislation. What needs to be changed there is the law, not the party. If you think your party will change the law when they get power, I got a bridge that's just your color. And I say that no matter what party you adhere to.
 
2013-12-03 02:45:03 PM  

Huggermugger:  Will the economy of wealthy people in Maine significantly improve once this legislation is passed?


Yes.
 
2013-12-03 02:45:17 PM  

bdub77: Guys, we are just getting KILLED by the Vietnamese and Chinese over here. I know at least two dozen children under the age of 10 who come to me every day, they say, bdub, we can't get work anywhere. We can sew. We have small fingers that make it easy to lace up shoes. We learned painting in day care and can easily apply noxious glue to undersoles. But the labor laws won't let us. And even if we could work, we can't work 14-16 hour shifts, and we can't even get paid a wage that is competitive with the Burmese or Indonesians or Pakistanis.

I know dozens of these poor children. They sit in class, lethargic, tired of the day to day classroom. Many of them are underfed. Why? No MONEY.  They don't need lessons in math or science or history or writing. They need JOBS!

The next generation of manufacturing is here, available to us, at our fingertips, tugging at our pockets, sitting underutilized in day care centers. What the hell is a creative curriculum anyway? And yet, we do nothing. And those goddamn Asian kids are destroying what little we have left of manufacturing in this country.

Please, kill these idiotic child labor laws and minimum wage laws. Do it for the childrens. Do it for the country.


Not to mention that most of these manufacturing jobs are being automated anyway!  I mean, by the time my nephew hits 12, he'll probably know a heck of a lot more about technology than I ever will.  Why shouldn't he be the one to run those machines in the factory?  Plus, if anything ever gets jammed, his small arms would be able to unjam it much easier than a man twice his age, which would probably require a major shutdown anyways.
 
2013-12-03 02:45:56 PM  

Felgraf: MindStalker: While the governor is stretching a bit to push for 12 year olds to get a job. I do think that making it easier for 15/16 year olds to get work experience even at a bit below minimum wage would benefit those kids in the long run.  Right now its near impossible for 16 year olds to get a job as all the college kids have pushed them out of low positions.

Yes, if there's one thing this sluggish economy needs, it's a way for businesses to fire workers who they're paying full salaries to and replace with cheap, disposable, less-than-minimum-wage-paid-minors, who likely have even less of a clue as to what their rights are than the college kids do.

WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG.


You're a freaken moron. Have you ever tried to train a 15 year old to do anything. Its a farking headache. Pay them to work? They'd need to pay me their first couple of paychecks till they have shiat figured out. That said, businesses used to have no other choice but do that because there wasn't a ton of people willing to take their shiatty jobs, now they have college kids to fill the slack. I don't think a wage of $5 an hour would entice many businesses to hire, but its a start as most of these college kids don't have any work experience either nowadays.
 
2013-12-03 02:46:12 PM  
When are people going to smarten up and learn not to vote for these sick twisted farks???  Seriously, these people want to do away with all government regulation and make this country a Somalian paradise.
 
2013-12-03 02:46:41 PM  
I got my first summer job when I was 13. I had to get a work-permit through the school board.
I worked 40 hours a weeks, for four weeks (detassling corn has a short season), at the then current Federal minimum wage of $3.25.

I see nothing wrong with kids under 16 having a summer job, but if they are going to do the same job as someone over 16, then pay them the same wage.
 
2013-12-03 02:47:02 PM  

Headso: I was a child laborer, I had a paper route as a kid...


Me too and made less than min wage.
 
2013-12-03 02:47:31 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: MindStalker: While the governor is stretching a bit to push for 12 year olds to get a job. I do think that making it easier for 15/16 year olds to get work experience even at a bit below minimum wage would benefit those kids in the long run.  Right now its near impossible for 16 year olds to get a job as all the college kids have pushed them out of low positions.

All that is going to do is bump the college kids out of the work force because there will always be some poor kid to pay slave wages to.


Exactly - businesses will simply turn the positions those college kids have into positions that are held by minors that are paid less.

That's how business works - find a way to cut costs, take that method.

/deal with fallout later.
//complain of lack of talented individuals
///make no effort to train
 
2013-12-03 02:47:39 PM  

MindStalker: Have you ever tried to train a 15 year old to do anything. Its a farking headache.


Only if you don't know how to hire or don't know how to explain things.

The average 15 year old is no dumber or smarter than the average adult when it comes to performing basic tasks. The smart ones get it, the dumb ones don't.

ALL of them deserve a fair wage, though.
 
2013-12-03 02:49:51 PM  

Huggermugger: What specifically does he hope to accomplish with this? Is there some task that just isn't getting done because there are no tiny hands to do it? Is there some industry that will finally flourish once it can employ children? Will the economy of Maine significantly improve once this legislation is passed?


All I can think of is that there are no employers left, so Mainese have to open family businesses and employ their young un's to run the till.
 
2013-12-03 02:50:29 PM  

Rwa2play: mrshowrules: Greenlit finally.  You only get a Republican supporting child labour thread a few times a season, I'm glad this one didn't get passed-up.

I really hope Maine Dems/Indies nominate someone sane enough to kick this guy's ass in a vote.


Just like last time it is shaping up to be a three way race. Every time this idiot does something idiotic people need to be reminded that he was elected with 38% of the vote. The majority of Mainiacs voted against him.

This time the independent is going to have a much harder time siphoning off enough votes though.  The Democrat has already come out as gay and is still leading in all the polls.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-12-03 02:51:35 PM  

Stone Meadow: Yep...like the massive Federal intrusion into every remaining aspect of American life it doesn't already intrude into as Americans recoil in horror from the GOP. Unintended consequences...how do they work?


I don't see any "massive Federal intrusion" into my life.  "Massive Federal intrusion" is a complaint from corporate true believers, and quite frankly I want "massive federal intrusion" on corporations that can massively make my live bad, whether it be pollution, credit checks, or information brokering about me.
 
2013-12-03 02:52:31 PM  

MindStalker: Felgraf: MindStalker: While the governor is stretching a bit to push for 12 year olds to get a job. I do think that making it easier for 15/16 year olds to get work experience even at a bit below minimum wage would benefit those kids in the long run.  Right now its near impossible for 16 year olds to get a job as all the college kids have pushed them out of low positions.

Yes, if there's one thing this sluggish economy needs, it's a way for businesses to fire workers who they're paying full salaries to and replace with cheap, disposable, less-than-minimum-wage-paid-minors, who likely have even less of a clue as to what their rights are than the college kids do.

WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG.

You're a freaken moron. Have you ever tried to train a 15 year old to do anything. Its a farking headache. Pay them to work? They'd need to pay me their first couple of paychecks till they have shiat figured out. That said, businesses used to have no other choice but do that because there wasn't a ton of people willing to take their shiatty jobs, now they have college kids to fill the slack. I don't think a wage of $5 an hour would entice many businesses to hire, but its a start as most of these college kids don't have any work experience either nowadays.


Yes, and we all know how much wall-mart cares about having highly trained workers.
 
2013-12-03 02:52:52 PM  
Absolutely no way that repealing or rolling back labor laws will result in the wholesale exploitation of children.  No way, no how.  Please disregard those elderly folks over there who actually worked in the New England mills or cannerys when they were children, themselves.  Anything past 50 years is ancient history, totally irrelevant.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-12-03 02:52:55 PM  

un4gvn666: MindStalker: Have you ever tried to train a 15 year old to do anything. Its a farking headache.

Only if you don't know how to hire or don't know how to explain things.

The average 15 year old is no dumber or smarter than the average adult when it comes to performing basic tasks. The smart ones get it, the dumb ones don't.

ALL of them deserve a fair wage, though.


That's the issue.  It's another attempt to push down wages.  We already have corporations holding all the wage power in the US.  Why give them more?
 
2013-12-03 02:56:05 PM  

d23: un4gvn666: MindStalker: Have you ever tried to train a 15 year old to do anything. Its a farking headache.

Only if you don't know how to hire or don't know how to explain things.

The average 15 year old is no dumber or smarter than the average adult when it comes to performing basic tasks. The smart ones get it, the dumb ones don't.

ALL of them deserve a fair wage, though.

That's the issue.  It's another attempt to push down wages.  We already have corporations holding all the wage power in the US.  Why give them more?



www.arsenal.com

This
 
2013-12-03 02:57:07 PM  
Surely this is one of those headlines which breathlessly exaggerates what was actually said.

*clicks link*

Oh, dear God. What is WRONG with Republicans?!
 
2013-12-03 02:58:25 PM  

monoski: Headso: I was a child laborer, I had a paper route as a kid...

Me too and made less than min wage.


not me, lived in a fairly rich area, with tips I got almost 20 bucks an hour and that was in the early 80s. That job still sucked though because you had to be up every single day no later than 6 and you only got 1 day off per year, christmas.
 
2013-12-03 02:58:30 PM  
Yes, the way to decrease the unemployment rate is to increase the denominator.

/sarcasm
 
2013-12-03 02:59:42 PM  

Needlessly Complicated: Surely this is one of those headlines which breathlessly exaggerates what was actually said.

*clicks link*

Oh, dear God. What is WRONG with Republicans?!


They're republican.  duh.
 
2013-12-03 03:02:17 PM  
Rex Sinquefield

Educators Sue to Ensure Voters Have All the Facts on Rex Sinquefield's Extreme Ballot Initiative

Stop Child Labor In Missouri

Not the first time I have read about this issue yet I still don't know why/how this is a right wing thing.
 
2013-12-03 03:04:27 PM  

MindStalker: Felgraf: MindStalker: While the governor is stretching a bit to push for 12 year olds to get a job. I do think that making it easier for 15/16 year olds to get work experience even at a bit below minimum wage would benefit those kids in the long run.  Right now its near impossible for 16 year olds to get a job as all the college kids have pushed them out of low positions.

Yes, if there's one thing this sluggish economy needs, it's a way for businesses to fire workers who they're paying full salaries to and replace with cheap, disposable, less-than-minimum-wage-paid-minors, who likely have even less of a clue as to what their rights are than the college kids do.

WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG.

You're a freaken moron. Have you ever tried to train a 15 year old to do anything. Its a farking headache. Pay them to work? They'd need to pay me their first couple of paychecks till they have shiat figured out.


Does your boss take your pay because you're so useless that you can't train a 15 year old to do menial labor?
 
2013-12-03 03:06:01 PM  

Needlessly Complicated: Surely this is one of those headlines which breathlessly exaggerates what was actually said.

*clicks link*

Oh, dear God. What is WRONG with Republicans?!


The only way to combat unemployment is to lower wages.
 
2013-12-03 03:07:02 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: MindStalker: Felgraf: MindStalker: While the governor is stretching a bit to push for 12 year olds to get a job. I do think that making it easier for 15/16 year olds to get work experience even at a bit below minimum wage would benefit those kids in the long run.  Right now its near impossible for 16 year olds to get a job as all the college kids have pushed them out of low positions.

Yes, if there's one thing this sluggish economy needs, it's a way for businesses to fire workers who they're paying full salaries to and replace with cheap, disposable, less-than-minimum-wage-paid-minors, who likely have even less of a clue as to what their rights are than the college kids do.

WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG.

You're a freaken moron. Have you ever tried to train a 15 year old to do anything. Its a farking headache. Pay them to work? They'd need to pay me their first couple of paychecks till they have shiat figured out.

Does your boss take your pay because you're so useless that you can't train a 15 year old to do menial labor?


Luckily I don't train 15 year olds. And I didn't say it was impossible, I said they are worthless for their first few paychecks.
 
2013-12-03 03:08:52 PM  

Triple Oak: Employ all the kids you want, Maine, you're practically far enough away to be Canada and very little benefits are being seen from your state anyway. What's the major export, lobster?


Don't lump the rest of Maine in with this dipshat of a governor.
 
2013-12-03 03:08:57 PM  
There's nothing wrong with kids working. It keeps them out of trouble, it builds character, you figure our earlier in life what work you like or dislike, and it teaches responsibility. A maximum of 10 to 15 hours a week? That's 2-3 hours a day on weekdays. Big farking deal.

As the son of a restaurant owner, I worked double or even triple that during the summer at that age. At 16, I worked 50+ hours a week over the summer.

One change: kids should be paid at least minimum wage, and not be taxed for it, or at least pay much less in taxes. An honest day's work should be rewarded no matter how young you are.
 
2013-12-03 03:09:23 PM  

MindStalker: HotWingConspiracy: MindStalker: Felgraf: MindStalker: While the governor is stretching a bit to push for 12 year olds to get a job. I do think that making it easier for 15/16 year olds to get work experience even at a bit below minimum wage would benefit those kids in the long run.  Right now its near impossible for 16 year olds to get a job as all the college kids have pushed them out of low positions.

Yes, if there's one thing this sluggish economy needs, it's a way for businesses to fire workers who they're paying full salaries to and replace with cheap, disposable, less-than-minimum-wage-paid-minors, who likely have even less of a clue as to what their rights are than the college kids do.

WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG.

You're a freaken moron. Have you ever tried to train a 15 year old to do anything. Its a farking headache. Pay them to work? They'd need to pay me their first couple of paychecks till they have shiat figured out.

Does your boss take your pay because you're so useless that you can't train a 15 year old to do menial labor?

Luckily I don't train 15 year olds.


Then your declaration is even more bizarre.

 And I didn't say it was impossible, I said they are worthless for their first few paychecks.

They're still working and deserve a pay check. Also, the word "minimum" means something.
 
2013-12-03 03:09:36 PM  

neversubmit: Rex Sinquefield

Educators Sue to Ensure Voters Have All the Facts on Rex Sinquefield's Extreme Ballot Initiative

Stop Child Labor In Missouri

Not the first time I have read about this issue yet I still don't know why/how this is a right wing thing.


For radical conservatives regulation is always bad. Child labor laws are generally recognized as good regulation but radical conservatives can't accept that so they have to find a way to argue against them. It's a simple mix of contrarianism and blind devotion to ideology.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-12-03 03:09:47 PM  

sendtodave: Needlessly Complicated: Surely this is one of those headlines which breathlessly exaggerates what was actually said.

*clicks link*

Oh, dear God. What is WRONG with Republicans?!

The only way to combat unemployment is to lower wages.


Great way to get backdoor subsidies to your business too, ala Walmart.   There is no way to tell, but if you count all the employees on food stamps it has to be the biggest receiver of corporate welfare in the US.
 
2013-12-03 03:09:49 PM  

Somacandra: Benevolent Misanthrope: OK, US - you do know that the rest of the world is noticing that, while you're the richest nation on earth, you're also working hard to be the most socially backward, right?  And you're working hard to create a State where the haves are filthy rich while the have-nots are slaves, with no real middle class.  Right?  You do see that.  Right?

[ourtowntustin.files.wordpress.com image 708x361]


Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Maine's governor, The Honorable William J. Le Petomaine.


I better watch my ass.
 
2013-12-03 03:10:25 PM  

physt: Triple Oak: Employ all the kids you want, Maine, you're practically far enough away to be Canada and very little benefits are being seen from your state anyway. What's the major export, lobster?

[newsbusters.org image 460x280]


Sadly, there is no Lovecraftian horror which will arise from the depths to consume Paul LePage.
 
2013-12-03 03:10:55 PM  
Imagine being 14 and looking for your first job. That manager looks at you and says, "I like you, kid, but you don't have any work experience. I have 12-year-olds who have been doing this for years lines up around the block for this position. I'm sorry, but I just can't help you out."
 
2013-12-03 03:11:02 PM  

orclover: The fact that republicans are not dragged out into the street and shot en mass shows how doomed this world is.  We will make hell on earth, we will vote it in place a piece at a time.

Its what 51% of the world wants.


Well, a rapidly dwindling 51%. Actually, probably more like a very vocal 23%. Jesus, you're a cheerful guy. Crap like this has happened throughout US history. This wave of radicalism will eventually go the way of the Know Nothings.
 
2013-12-03 03:11:53 PM  

gaslight: What the Dickens?


What you did? I see it.
 
2013-12-03 03:13:21 PM  
ARE THERE NO WORKHOUSES...
Oh, there are?
Carry on, then.
 
2013-12-03 03:14:30 PM  

quizzical: Imagine being 14 and looking for your first job. That manager looks at you and says, "I like you, kid, but you don't have any work experience. I have 12-year-olds who have been doing this for years lines up around the block for this position. I'm sorry, but I just can't help you out."


That happened to me.
I was told I waited to long to apply for a job as a fruit picker at a farm.
They did hire me, but only for 25 cents an hour.
No over time.
I worked one day.
 
2013-12-03 03:14:42 PM  
I can understand if you were historically Republican. Maybe your parents were Republicans or you have fond memories of Ike or something. But why anyone continues to stand up and be counted with the Republican party as it is today and still wants to be treated like a sane, healthy, decent human being is beyond me.
 
2013-12-03 03:15:33 PM  

d23: Stone Meadow: Yep...like the massive Federal intrusion into every remaining aspect of American life it doesn't already intrude into as Americans recoil in horror from the GOP. Unintended consequences...how do they work?

I don't see any "massive Federal intrusion" into my life.  "Massive Federal intrusion" is a complaint from corporate true believers, and quite frankly I want "massive federal intrusion" on corporations that can massively make my live bad, whether it be pollution, credit checks, or information brokering about me.


Massive federal intrusions, to Republicans:

1. Hey insurers, here's some money. Now you all subsidize contraceptives at 100%.

2. Excuse me, OilCorp, we need you to cut carbon emissions from your refineries.

3. I'm sorry, HotelChain. You do have to rent rooms to black people.

Things that are not massive federal intrusions, according to Republicans:

1. F*ck off, gay people. I don't care what your state says, you can't get married.

2. Abortion is bad because reasons so we banned it for everyone.

3. This country is fundamentally Christian and everyone else needs to understand that religious freedom means you get to choose whether to be Baptist or Methodist.

4.
 
2013-12-03 03:16:13 PM  
If I pick any policy stance based on pure unmitigated evil, why do I find a republican entertaining it?
 
2013-12-03 03:16:17 PM  
I hate this country so hard.
 
2013-12-03 03:17:44 PM  

neversubmit: Rex Sinquefield

Educators Sue to Ensure Voters Have All the Facts on Rex Sinquefield's Extreme Ballot Initiative

Stop Child Labor In Missouri

Not the first time I have read about this issue yet I still don't know why/how this is a right wing thing.


Cheaper labor means higher profit margins.
 
2013-12-03 03:18:22 PM  

Somacandra: Benevolent Misanthrope: OK, US - you do know that the rest of the world is noticing that, while you're the richest nation on earth, you're also working hard to be the most socially backward, right?  And you're working hard to create a State where the haves are filthy rich while the have-nots are slaves, with no real middle class.  Right?  You do see that.  Right?

[ourtowntustin.files.wordpress.com image 708x361]


Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Maine's governor, The Honorable William J. Le Petomaine.


Err what? Sorry. That photo had two very distracting elements in it.
 
2013-12-03 03:18:45 PM  

Magorn: simple businessman


I don't think a 'businessman' is a term of respect any more.
 
2013-12-03 03:18:59 PM  

odinsposse: neversubmit: Rex Sinquefield

Educators Sue to Ensure Voters Have All the Facts on Rex Sinquefield's Extreme Ballot Initiative

Stop Child Labor In Missouri

Not the first time I have read about this issue yet I still don't know why/how this is a right wing thing.

For radical conservatives regulation is always bad. Child labor laws are generally recognized as good regulation but radical conservatives can't accept that so they have to find a way to argue against them. It's a simple mix of contrarianism and blind devotion to ideology.


oic

Ideology has always been a bit of a blind spot for me. I love them all but most should never leave the realm of the mind.
 
2013-12-03 03:22:14 PM  

ficklefkrfark: Triple Oak: Employ all the kids you want, Maine, you're practically far enough away to be Canada and very little benefits are being seen from your state anyway. What's the major export, lobster?

Don't lump the rest of Maine in with this dipshat of a governor.


Been saying the same thing about WI....but then I go out and talk to my neighbors....
 
2013-12-03 03:23:46 PM  
More Liberal elitism on display here.

/Like YOU people know whats best for children
//GOP, the party of, by and for children.
///Vote Republican
 
2013-12-03 03:23:51 PM  

odinsposse: neversubmit: Rex Sinquefield

Educators Sue to Ensure Voters Have All the Facts on Rex Sinquefield's Extreme Ballot Initiative

Stop Child Labor In Missouri

Not the first time I have read about this issue yet I still don't know why/how this is a right wing thing.

For radical conservatives regulation is always bad. Child labor laws are generally recognized as good regulation but radical conservatives can't accept that so they have to find a way to argue against them. It's a simple mix of contrarianism and blind devotion to ideology.


In some respects, I think it's a good thing that the agenda needle keeps migrating farther into the crazy zone. The radicals, who tend to hold sway in more than a few primaries, will keep nominating crazier and crazier candidates. Makes it easier to beat them like a drum in the general elections.
 
2013-12-03 03:24:42 PM  
Seriously?

His and other Republican's solution to unemployment is to allow expand the labor pool AND pay them less?

Fark these guys.
 
2013-12-03 03:26:28 PM  
This is outright class warfare.  The upper class is winning.
 
2013-12-03 03:27:15 PM  

FarkedOver: I hate this country so hard.


Don't hate our country. Hate the mouth breathing chuckle heads who are actively trying to run it into the ground, while other mouth breathing, six generations inbred Taters slam their grease covered paws together, grunting in approval, before going back to eating lice out of their genital folds and drooling.
 
2013-12-03 03:31:42 PM  

FarkedOver: This is outright class warfare.  The upper class is winning.


izquotes.com
 
2013-12-03 03:33:42 PM  

Diogenes: Well we're degrading the quality of public education so much that kids will only end up as brainless worker drones anyway.  This just speeds up the process.


Our school system is a relic of the industrial revolution and was only ever designed to churn out factory workers who were educated enough to do their jobs efficiently. The whole educational model is even based on mass-production principles... the fact that our educational system resembles a factory process is not a coincidence:

- Children are separated based on age (rather than by ability)
- Age groups are divided up and processed in batches (classrooms)
- Lessons are provided on a strict schedule (complete with bells and lunch break)
- Standardized curriculum
- Standardized and centralized facilities
- Standardized evaluation with numerical grading
- "Rejects" sent back for reprocessing or dumped from the system completely

There is virtually no room - physically, culturally or economically - to optimize the process of education on a per-student level. One might be tempted to say that anyone who makes it through all that and manages to become anything other than a brainless worker drone is the real failure of the system.

Of course, this was only for the unwashed masses - rich people could still send their children to private schools. The typical Republican stance on public education is perfectly in line with their overall mentality of returning to a romanticized/fictional version of a 17th century society.
=Smidge=
 
2013-12-03 03:35:09 PM  

A Cave Geek: ficklefkrfark: Triple Oak: Employ all the kids you want, Maine, you're practically far enough away to be Canada and very little benefits are being seen from your state anyway. What's the major export, lobster?

Don't lump the rest of Maine in with this dipshat of a governor.

Been saying the same thing about WI....but then I go out and talk to my neighbors....


You do have a point there...
 
2013-12-03 03:37:56 PM  
How 'bout we raise minimum wage instead?
 
2013-12-03 03:39:14 PM  

lockers: If I pick any policy stance based on pure unmitigated evil, why do I find a republican entertaining it?


Because it's so satisfying? Feels so good? absolute bliss?
 
2013-12-03 03:41:10 PM  

edmo: I thought the minimum wage was supposed to be a training wage


No, a person is supposed to be able to support a family of four comfortably on minimum wage.
 
2013-12-03 03:41:12 PM  

give me doughnuts: I got my first summer job when I was 13. I had to get a work-permit through the school board.
I worked 40 hours a weeks, for four weeks (detassling corn has a short season), at the then current Federal minimum wage of $3.25.

I see nothing wrong with kids under 16 having a summer job, but if they are going to do the same job as someone over 16, then pay them the same wage.


I detasseled too, but there are loads of agricultural job descriptions that let the companies pay you peanuts.
 
2013-12-03 03:42:49 PM  
www.notmytribe.com
 
2013-12-03 03:45:46 PM  

MindStalker: While the governor is stretching a bit to push for 12 year olds to get a job. I do think that making it easier for 15/16 year olds to get work experience even at a bit below minimum wage would benefit those kids in the long run.  Right now its near impossible for 16 year olds to get a job as all the college kids have pushed them out of low positions.


I was 13 When I started my paper route.  I delivered papers 5 days a week after school.  Did not hurt my grades and I had more money that any of my friends.

Not seeing the problem.  No one is being forced to work.
 
2013-12-03 03:47:25 PM  

neversubmit: FarkedOver: This is outright class warfare.  The upper class is winning.

[izquotes.com image 850x400]


I have to be honest, fark that guy, and fark the administration over increasing coal mining leases (although bravo for finally getting new regs through for coal emissions what will hopefully get us off coal faster).

He's got a stake in the Powder Basin coal export market, and they tried to ram his trains through my city despite objections from our residents and nearly every city along the route to Coos Bay, Oregon.

The only thing that stopped them from going this route (they'd pass about 1/2 mile from my home), was the feds were requiring the investors to upgrade the rail line to handle the increase in traffic, something they said no too.

They want to sell that coal now, immediately, before the market evaporates, to China, India, and South Korea (among others) because the US is moving away from coal.  Fark that noise.

Unfortunately, all three are also trying to move away from coal, with all three investing heavily in renewable as well as nuclear power generation.

//Rant over.
 
2013-12-03 03:48:52 PM  

Huggermugger: What specifically does he hope to accomplish with this? Is there some task that just isn't getting done because there are no tiny hands to do it? Is there some industry that will finally flourish once it can employ children? Will the economy of Maine significantly improve once this legislation is passed?


Well sure. Why hire adults for some jobs when kids can do it for $2 less an hour?
 
2013-12-03 03:49:01 PM  
odinsposse:

For radical conservatives regulation is always bad. Child labor laws are generally recognized as good regulation but radical conservatives can't accept that so they have to find a way to argue against them. It's a simple mix of contrarianism and blind devotion to ideology.

A Libertarian friend of mine likes environmental regulations (he fishes a lot, and says he's seen how things have improved in the rivers he fishes in) but admits he can't square that with his ideology.
 
2013-12-03 03:49:08 PM  
What kind of jobs would these 12 year olds be having exactly? Like, would they be selling me auto parts or something? I wouldn't buy auto parts from a twelve year old, I know that much.
 
2013-12-03 03:50:41 PM  

GoldSpider: edmo: I thought the minimum wage was supposed to be a training wage

No, a person is supposed to be able to support a family of four comfortably on minimum wage.


sounds terrible!
 
2013-12-03 03:51:02 PM  
This is their clever way of trying to push back against raising the minimum wage.
 
2013-12-03 03:51:48 PM  

meat0918: They want to sell that coal now, immediately, before the market evaporates, to China, India, and South Korea (among others) because the US is moving away from coal.  Fark that noise.


And to think they had the gall to propose installing offshore wind turbines within view from my beach house!
 
2013-12-03 03:52:05 PM  

JonBuck: odinsposse:

For radical conservatives regulation is always bad. Child labor laws are generally recognized as good regulation but radical conservatives can't accept that so they have to find a way to argue against them. It's a simple mix of contrarianism and blind devotion to ideology.

A Libertarian friend of mine likes environmental regulations (he fishes a lot, and says he's seen how things have improved in the rivers he fishes in) but admits he can't square that with his ideology.


Sure he can. There's nothing necessarily inherent about libertarianism that says a government cannot intervene in cases where an individual's actions cause harm to others and force them to internalize those costs. Pollution is one clear example of this. Now if you're an anarchist, then you'll have trouble justifying those laws.
 
2013-12-03 03:53:05 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Maine Gov. Paul LePage (R), who championed a measure in March 2011 that would not only allow kids as young as 12 to get jobs, but would also allow employers to pay children less than the minimum wage.

OK, US - you do know that the rest of the world is noticing that, while you're the richest nation on earth, you're also working hard to be the most socially backward, right?  And you're working hard to create a State where the haves are filthy rich while the have-nots are slaves, with no real middle class.  Right?  You do see that.  Right?


Yes.

Any chance I could marry you to get a green card to Canada?

/Bonus: I qualify for perm residency on my own anyway. I got my BA in Canada. I'm half Canadian already!
//would seriously consider it if she wasn't with a fiance who really does treat her like a queen
 
2013-12-03 03:53:17 PM  

pdee: MindStalker: While the governor is stretching a bit to push for 12 year olds to get a job. I do think that making it easier for 15/16 year olds to get work experience even at a bit below minimum wage would benefit those kids in the long run.  Right now its near impossible for 16 year olds to get a job as all the college kids have pushed them out of low positions.

I was 13 When I started my paper route.  I delivered papers 5 days a week after school.  Did not hurt my grades and I had more money that any of my friends.

Not seeing the problem.  No one is being forced to work.


People are being forced to work, and if the parents can't make enough to support the family then they'll take the kids out of school and put them to work. Especially if the Teapartiers can get minimum wage laws eliminated, along with food stamps and any other government-funded safety net.

There are lots of reasons we passed laws to eliminate child labor.
 
2013-12-03 03:53:26 PM  

Headso: GoldSpider: edmo: I thought the minimum wage was supposed to be a training wage

No, a person is supposed to be able to support a family of four comfortably on minimum wage.

sounds terrible!


So...  why not both?
 
2013-12-03 03:54:57 PM  
Maybe child governors wouldn't be a bad idea.
 
2013-12-03 03:55:25 PM  

Serious Black: JonBuck: odinsposse:

For radical conservatives regulation is always bad. Child labor laws are generally recognized as good regulation but radical conservatives can't accept that so they have to find a way to argue against them. It's a simple mix of contrarianism and blind devotion to ideology.

A Libertarian friend of mine likes environmental regulations (he fishes a lot, and says he's seen how things have improved in the rivers he fishes in) but admits he can't square that with his ideology.

Sure he can. There's nothing necessarily inherent about libertarianism that says a government cannot intervene in cases where an individual's actions cause harm to others and force them to internalize those costs. Pollution is one clear example of this.


Wouldn't they argue we should all wait for the market to sort it out? You know, because people speak with their dollars and they would never support a heavy polluter. They'll go out of business any day now. Any day.
 
2013-12-03 03:55:28 PM  

JonBuck: odinsposse:

For radical conservatives regulation is always bad. Child labor laws are generally recognized as good regulation but radical conservatives can't accept that so they have to find a way to argue against them. It's a simple mix of contrarianism and blind devotion to ideology.

A Libertarian friend of mine likes environmental regulations (he fishes a lot, and says he's seen how things have improved in the rivers he fishes in) but admits he can't square that with his ideology.


I thought Libertarians were a "your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose" kind of people?

In this case, the fist was pollution produced by factories and farms, and his nose was the rivers he liked to fish, and also his body, since he probably had to and still has to limit how much fish he eats.
 
2013-12-03 03:57:26 PM  
Is the next big voter block they alienate going to be parents?

popcorn.gif
 
2013-12-03 03:57:26 PM  

Diogenes: It's like Dickens, Swift, and Sinclair never existed.


Of course they existed!  They wrote some of the best how-to books on the market!

Sincerely,
Gov. LePage
 
2013-12-03 03:57:27 PM  

sweetmelissa31: Maybe child governors wouldn't be a bad idea.


They already have one.
 
2013-12-03 03:57:33 PM  
This really is Obama's fault. For more than 200 years this country has been a bastion of white male privilege, with the president as white male-in-chief. Obama has thrown this traditional social structure into chaos and the repubs are lashing out against every threatening demographic in an almost homosexual panic of anxiety and despair. And rightly, too; whites are about to lose their majority status and the election of a black man and, inevitably, a woman to the presidency will become more and more common in the years ahead. The attitude is "Goddammit, respect us, whether or not we've done anything to deserve your respect. Or we'll farking kill you." A similar motivation underlies the Arab attitude. They've done nothing of value or importance for the past three hundred years but you goddam well better respect them or they'll blow shiat up. Both groups need a good kick upside the head.
 
2013-12-03 03:58:02 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: Wouldn't they argue we should all wait for the market to sort it out?


If libertarians believed what you imagine them to believe, then sure.
 
2013-12-03 03:58:43 PM  

FarkedOver:


There's a reason you couldn't find a newer version of that poster.
 
2013-12-03 03:59:15 PM  

GoldSpider: HotWingConspiracy: Wouldn't they argue we should all wait for the market to sort it out?

If libertarians believed what you imagine them to believe, then sure.


No true libertarian a herp a do
 
2013-12-03 03:59:48 PM  
Newsflash:  Your snowflakes aren't that precious.  They will not die or suffer permanent injury if asked to do some chores at age 15.  Or if they get paid for it.

Everyone here agrees with that.  But heaven forbid the law comport with reality.

Work your child 70 hours a week with academics and piano lessons?  Win Tiger Mom of the Year.  Let him earn a few bucks doing 5 hours a week as a stockboy during the summer?  Punch your ticket to the seventh level of Hell, you child abuser.
 
2013-12-03 04:00:16 PM  

GoldSpider: meat0918: They want to sell that coal now, immediately, before the market evaporates, to China, India, and South Korea (among others) because the US is moving away from coal.  Fark that noise.

And to think they had the gall to propose installing offshore wind turbines within view from my beach house!


I have a fundamental disagreement with selling our country's energy reserves and other unprocessed natural resources to a nation like China, one that doesn't really have our best interests in mind, and one that turns around and sells us a product utilizing those materials, made with cheap labor and abundant human rights abuses.

It happens with a lot of things, timber, oil, natural gas, minerals, even chicken now, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
 
2013-12-03 04:00:32 PM  
Like All Republicans, Gov. LePage actively wants to return to the early 1800s, with all minorities in chains, women treated as chattel, and children only worth what they can earn in the mines and factories. Every single Republican in America wants this 100%. The ones who say they don't are pants-shiatting cowards afraid to admit the truth in public. This does not distinguish them from the rest of the Republicans.

Gov. LePage is quite brave for a Republican (which puts him in the bottom .0001% of people on the planet) for speaking his mind as he did, giving voice to what All Republicans really believe.
 
2013-12-03 04:00:51 PM  

Garet Garrett: Newsflash:  Your snowflakes aren't that precious.  They will not die or suffer permanent injury if asked to do some chores at age 15.  Or if they get paid for it.

Everyone here agrees with that.  But heaven forbid the law comport with reality.

Work your child 70 hours a week with academics and piano lessons?  Win Tiger Mom of the Year.  Let him earn a few bucks doing 5 hours a week as a stockboy during the summer?  Punch your ticket to the seventh level of Hell, you child abuser.


"Do some chores"? LePage isn't talking about taking out the garbage here.
 
2013-12-03 04:01:47 PM  

Garet Garrett: Newsflash:  Your snowflakes aren't that precious.  They will not die or suffer permanent injury if asked to do some chores at age 15.  Or if they get paid for it.


I don't know about Maine, but here you can work at 14. And you have to get paid a legal wage.

Why is it you're ok with 12 year olds entering the work force at a slave wage?
 
2013-12-03 04:02:34 PM  

meat0918: JonBuck: odinsposse:

For radical conservatives regulation is always bad. Child labor laws are generally recognized as good regulation but radical conservatives can't accept that so they have to find a way to argue against them. It's a simple mix of contrarianism and blind devotion to ideology.

A Libertarian friend of mine likes environmental regulations (he fishes a lot, and says he's seen how things have improved in the rivers he fishes in) but admits he can't square that with his ideology.

I thought Libertarians were a "your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose" kind of people?

In this case, the fist was pollution produced by factories and farms, and his nose was the rivers he liked to fish, and also his body, since he probably had to and still has to limit how much fish he eats.



"All persons, businesses, corporate entities, and municipalities which take water from a navigable waterway, and release an effluent which flows back into said navigable waterway, must place the outflow upstream of the intake."

That way, they clean up on their own, or else they suck up their own pollution.

/just my $0.02
 
2013-12-03 04:02:35 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: FarkedOver:

There's a reason you couldn't find a newer version of that poster.


I'm sorry you're anti-labor.  But child labor, the 8 hour work day, safety on the job.... all things that were fought hard for by leftist activists.  Now people regularly work more than 8 hours a day, they want kids back at the work place, and OSHA is just gubmint red tape getting in the way of progress.

Lets do the cameroncrazy1984 method to solve problems: click your heels three times and vote!
 
2013-12-03 04:03:13 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: "Do some chores"? LePage isn't talking about taking out the garbage here.


He's also not talking about forcing kids to work 70-hour work-weeks.

Not saying I agree with him, but the hyperbole doesn't help the case against this idea.
 
2013-12-03 04:04:38 PM  

give me doughnuts: meat0918: JonBuck: odinsposse:

For radical conservatives regulation is always bad. Child labor laws are generally recognized as good regulation but radical conservatives can't accept that so they have to find a way to argue against them. It's a simple mix of contrarianism and blind devotion to ideology.

A Libertarian friend of mine likes environmental regulations (he fishes a lot, and says he's seen how things have improved in the rivers he fishes in) but admits he can't square that with his ideology.

I thought Libertarians were a "your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose" kind of people?

In this case, the fist was pollution produced by factories and farms, and his nose was the rivers he liked to fish, and also his body, since he probably had to and still has to limit how much fish he eats.


"All persons, businesses, corporate entities, and municipalities which take water from a navigable waterway, and release an effluent which flows back into said navigable waterway, must place the outflow upstream of the intake."

That way, they clean up on their own, or else they suck up their own pollution.

/just my $0.02


I'm just hazarding a guess, but that'd be one of the regulations his friend can't square up with his ideology.
 
2013-12-03 04:06:38 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: I don't know about Maine, but here you can work at 14. And you have to get paid a legal wage.


For now, it's the same.  You have to get a work permit if you're under 16, as referenced in the article, but these are pretty much given to anyone who asks who isn't a truant.  And I believe under those under 16 can be paid less than minimum wage for the first 6 mos.
 
2013-12-03 04:07:00 PM  

FarkedOver: I'm sorry you're anti-labor.  But child labor, the 8 hour work day, safety on the job.... all things that were fought hard for by leftist activist


Sure they were, but how did they become law?

Apparently I'm anti-labor for supporting things that actually help labor, rather than a feel-good movement.
 
2013-12-03 04:07:45 PM  

GoldSpider: He's also not talking about forcing kids to work 70-hour work-weeks.

Not saying I agree with him, but the hyperbole doesn't help the case against this idea.


What hyperbole? Is he talking about legislation that would limit overtime for children?
 
2013-12-03 04:07:48 PM  

Famous Thamas: give me doughnuts: I got my first summer job when I was 13. I had to get a work-permit through the school board.
I worked 40 hours a weeks, for four weeks (detassling corn has a short season), at the then current Federal minimum wage of $3.25.

I see nothing wrong with kids under 16 having a summer job, but if they are going to do the same job as someone over 16, then pay them the same wage.

I detasseled too, but there are loads of agricultural job descriptions that let the companies pay you peanuts.



One would almost assume the agri-business has an under$tanding with local political machine.

Once we moved back to the 'burbs when I was 14, those jobs were impossible to get. You practically had to knife your competition to get a decent number of lawn-mowing customers, but once you got them lined up, the money was better than you got for flipping burgers once you turned 16.
 
2013-12-03 04:09:11 PM  

Peki: Benevolent Misanthrope: Maine Gov. Paul LePage (R), who championed a measure in March 2011 that would not only allow kids as young as 12 to get jobs, but would also allow employers to pay children less than the minimum wage.

OK, US - you do know that the rest of the world is noticing that, while you're the richest nation on earth, you're also working hard to be the most socially backward, right?  And you're working hard to create a State where the haves are filthy rich while the have-nots are slaves, with no real middle class.  Right?  You do see that.  Right?

Yes.

Any chance I could marry you to get a green card to Canada?

/Bonus: I qualify for perm residency on my own anyway. I got my BA in Canada. I'm half Canadian already!
//would seriously consider it if she wasn't with a fiance who really does treat her like a queen


I don't even have my green card yet.  I am a guest of the State.  And they still treat me better than my home country.
 
2013-12-03 04:10:51 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: FarkedOver: I'm sorry you're anti-labor.  But child labor, the 8 hour work day, safety on the job.... all things that were fought hard for by leftist activist

Sure they were, but how did they become law?

Apparently I'm anti-labor for supporting things that actually help labor, rather than a feel-good movement.


Haymarket Affair and Minneapolis in the 1930s - All feel good movements.  A truncheon to the farking skull sure does feel good, a few bullets from the police and national guard mmmmm feels good.  I'm talking about a militant labor movement that is what we need again.  We don't need better candidates, we don't need better laws, we need the brute force of the working class to throw it's weight around once again.  You're talking about voting for democrats that are maybe, at best, marginally better than their republican counterparts.  I'm talking about constructive, militant change for workers.
 
2013-12-03 04:11:24 PM  

edmo: I thought the minimum wage was supposed to be a training wage


That was back in the day when the US actually made things instead of being a "service economy" after exporting middle-class jobs to poorer countries. Now these entry-level jobs are the *only* jobs in many regions of the country.
 
2013-12-03 04:11:29 PM  

GoldSpider: cameroncrazy1984: "Do some chores"? LePage isn't talking about taking out the garbage here.

He's also not talking about forcing kids to work 70-hour work-weeks.


Not sure if this is part of the current proposal, but in the last round he wanted to lift the 20-hour limit and 10:00 p.m. weeknight curfew on kids between 16-18.  So in LePage's case, that's much less hyperbole than it is worst case scenario.
 
2013-12-03 04:11:29 PM  

meat0918: give me doughnuts: meat0918: JonBuck: odinsposse:

For radical conservatives regulation is always bad. Child labor laws are generally recognized as good regulation but radical conservatives can't accept that so they have to find a way to argue against them. It's a simple mix of contrarianism and blind devotion to ideology.

A Libertarian friend of mine likes environmental regulations (he fishes a lot, and says he's seen how things have improved in the rivers he fishes in) but admits he can't square that with his ideology.

I thought Libertarians were a "your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose" kind of people?

In this case, the fist was pollution produced by factories and farms, and his nose was the rivers he liked to fish, and also his body, since he probably had to and still has to limit how much fish he eats.


"All persons, businesses, corporate entities, and municipalities which take water from a navigable waterway, and release an effluent which flows back into said navigable waterway, must place the outflow upstream of the intake."

That way, they clean up on their own, or else they suck up their own pollution.

/just my $0.02

I'm just hazarding a guess, but that'd be one of the regulations his friend can't square up with his ideology.



It's a fictional regulation.

It would be nice to put in place, but there are plenty of people and organizations that would fight it.
Theoretically, the President could do it under his authority as Commander-in-Chief (Navy, Coast Guard, Army Corps of Engineers). Not sure, but I think he would have authority over "navigable" waterways.
 
2013-12-03 04:12:02 PM  

Garet Garrett: Newsflash:  Your snowflakes aren't that precious.  They will not die or suffer permanent injury if asked to do some chores at age 15.  Or if they get paid for it.

Everyone here agrees with that.  But heaven forbid the law comport with reality.

Work your child 70 hours a week with academics and piano lessons?  Win Tiger Mom of the Year.  Let him earn a few bucks doing 5 hours a week as a stockboy during the summer?  Punch your ticket to the seventh level of Hell, you child abuser.


Yup academics and music lessons bad. Menial labor for lower wages good. You're a genius.
 
2013-12-03 04:12:52 PM  

MindStalker: While the governor is stretching a bit to push for 12 year olds to get a job. I do think that making it easier for 15/16 year olds to get work experience even at a bit below minimum wage would benefit those kids in the long run.  Right now its near impossible for 16 year olds to get a job as all the college kids have pushed them out of low positions.


Yeah, not like the reason those college kids have those jobs is high unemployment or anything. Kicking the college kids out of those jobs will just produce freedom tears from the Mighty Crying Bald Eagle.
 
2013-12-03 04:13:39 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: GoldSpider: He's also not talking about forcing kids to work 70-hour work-weeks.

Not saying I agree with him, but the hyperbole doesn't help the case against this idea.

What hyperbole? Is he talking about legislation that would limit overtime for children?


What jobs are you aware of that force anyone under age 18 to work overtime?
 
2013-12-03 04:14:57 PM  

FarkedOver: Haymarket Affair and Minneapolis in the 1930s - All feel good movements


Yep. Was the 40 hour work week commonplace following the Haymarket affair? No? Huh. Wonder what it took to codify that.
 
2013-12-03 04:15:32 PM  

GoldSpider: cameroncrazy1984: GoldSpider: He's also not talking about forcing kids to work 70-hour work-weeks.

Not saying I agree with him, but the hyperbole doesn't help the case against this idea.

What hyperbole? Is he talking about legislation that would limit overtime for children?

What jobs are you aware of that force anyone under age 18 to work overtime?


I don't know, you tell me. I would assume we're talking about full-time jobs. Do you know any full-time jobs that do not offer overtime?
 
2013-12-03 04:16:41 PM  

Foxxinnia: What kind of jobs would these 12 year olds be having exactly? Like, would they be selling me auto parts or something? I wouldn't buy auto parts from a twelve year old, I know that much.


Make-work or menial jobs.  Early in my lifetime, it was not uncommon for a kid to sweep out the local store, wash windows, bus tables, bag groceries and take them to the car, help make deliveries, babysit, etc.  You could get paid fifty cents or five dollars (which was a lot of money) depending on how long it took.  Often, the employer didn't really need the job done that badly, but saw it as a way to help the community and maybe get a loyal employee down the road.  It was an excellent way for kids to learn thrift, stay out of trouble, and develop a work ethic.  Many times, it was just seasonally helping out in the family restaurant or farm for no pay..I sold Christmas trees in my grandmother's nursery until I was 12.  Then the government decided to put an end to it under the guise of "child labor" laws.  I personally think it was unions who simply wanted some of these make-work jobs to pay off relatives of politicians...or whatever silly reason.
 
2013-12-03 04:18:15 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: GoldSpider: cameroncrazy1984: GoldSpider: He's also not talking about forcing kids to work 70-hour work-weeks.

Not saying I agree with him, but the hyperbole doesn't help the case against this idea.

What hyperbole? Is he talking about legislation that would limit overtime for children?

What jobs are you aware of that force anyone under age 18 to work overtime?

I don't know, you tell me. I would assume we're talking about full-time jobs. Do you know any full-time jobs that do not offer overtime?


I don't know of any full-time jobs that hire children.
 
2013-12-03 04:19:01 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: FarkedOver: Haymarket Affair and Minneapolis in the 1930s - All feel good movements

Yep. Was the 40 hour work week commonplace following the Haymarket affair? No? Huh. Wonder what it took to codify that.


More direct action via organizing at the workplace, obviously.  I'm glad you had no other retort to the rest of my comment and I take your silence as agreement.
 
2013-12-03 04:19:27 PM  
I love how the traditional crop of leftists are equating making it legal for 12-16 year olds to work to slave labor (where they would be forced to work).
Rubberized goalposts are going to be needed for the rest of this thread.
 
2013-12-03 04:20:14 PM  

GoldSpider: cameroncrazy1984: GoldSpider: cameroncrazy1984: GoldSpider: He's also not talking about forcing kids to work 70-hour work-weeks.

Not saying I agree with him, but the hyperbole doesn't help the case against this idea.

What hyperbole? Is he talking about legislation that would limit overtime for children?

What jobs are you aware of that force anyone under age 18 to work overtime?

I don't know, you tell me. I would assume we're talking about full-time jobs. Do you know any full-time jobs that do not offer overtime?

I don't know of any full-time jobs that hire children.


That's because  it's illegal
 
2013-12-03 04:21:03 PM  

FarkedOver: cameroncrazy1984: FarkedOver: Haymarket Affair and Minneapolis in the 1930s - All feel good movements

Yep. Was the 40 hour work week commonplace following the Haymarket affair? No? Huh. Wonder what it took to codify that.

More direct action via organizing at the workplace, obviously.  I'm glad you had no other retort to the rest of my comment and I take your silence as agreement.


Really. All this direct action passed laws? Funny, I thought it took electing Congressmen and Senators, proposing, writing and passing legislation that made it legal.
 
2013-12-03 04:21:30 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Peki: Benevolent Misanthrope: Maine Gov. Paul LePage (R), who championed a measure in March 2011 that would not only allow kids as young as 12 to get jobs, but would also allow employers to pay children less than the minimum wage.

OK, US - you do know that the rest of the world is noticing that, while you're the richest nation on earth, you're also working hard to be the most socially backward, right?  And you're working hard to create a State where the haves are filthy rich while the have-nots are slaves, with no real middle class.  Right?  You do see that.  Right?

Yes.

Any chance I could marry you to get a green card to Canada?

/Bonus: I qualify for perm residency on my own anyway. I got my BA in Canada. I'm half Canadian already!
//would seriously consider it if she wasn't with a fiance who really does treat her like a queen

I don't even have my green card yet.  I am a guest of the State.  And they still treat me better than my home country.


LOL. I believe it. Guest of the State is an interesting phrase though. Care to elaborate?

/miss Edmonton so much I can smell it sometimes
 
2013-12-03 04:22:58 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: Wouldn't they argue we should all wait for the market to sort it out?


No - because the market cannot hear cases when an individual or their property has been harmed and a mediator with authority has to hear it out.  You're confusing libertarians with anarchists.
 
2013-12-03 04:23:20 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: FarkedOver: cameroncrazy1984: FarkedOver: Haymarket Affair and Minneapolis in the 1930s - All feel good movements

Yep. Was the 40 hour work week commonplace following the Haymarket affair? No? Huh. Wonder what it took to codify that.

More direct action via organizing at the workplace, obviously.  I'm glad you had no other retort to the rest of my comment and I take your silence as agreement.

Really. All this direct action passed laws? Funny, I thought it took electing Congressmen and Senators, proposing, writing and passing legislation that made it legal.


Obviously these laws mean shiat when they are not enforced, which happens more often than not.  The boss doesn't have to play by the rules. The workers damn well don't have to.
 
2013-12-03 04:24:58 PM  

FarkedOver: cameroncrazy1984: FarkedOver: cameroncrazy1984: FarkedOver: Haymarket Affair and Minneapolis in the 1930s - All feel good movements

Yep. Was the 40 hour work week commonplace following the Haymarket affair? No? Huh. Wonder what it took to codify that.

More direct action via organizing at the workplace, obviously.  I'm glad you had no other retort to the rest of my comment and I take your silence as agreement.

Really. All this direct action passed laws? Funny, I thought it took electing Congressmen and Senators, proposing, writing and passing legislation that made it legal.

Obviously these laws mean shiat when they are not enforced, which happens more often than not.  The boss doesn't have to play by the rules. The workers damn well don't have to.


While things are getting worse I think you got a ways to go until it gets back to the point where people get violent.
 
2013-12-03 04:25:35 PM  
So will this apply to brothels?


//...wait.. I'll be back, someone is knocking on my door........
 
2013-12-03 04:26:01 PM  

o5iiawah: I love how the traditional crop of leftists are equating making it legal for 12-16 year olds to work to slave labor (where they would be forced to work).
Rubberized goalposts are going to be needed for the rest of this thread.


Really? You don't think half of this country's children would immediately be pulled out of school if it were legal for them to work full-time instead?

You've got no idea the pull and effect family concerns can have on a child. A child would be the first one to sign up for a job if they thought it would help their famWe made a choice a long time ago that school is more important so we can raise an educated society. If you support this, then don't complain in 40 years when everyone is Idiocracy stupid because their parents decided making a buck was more important than learning that water feeds plants, not Brawndo.
 
2013-12-03 04:26:37 PM  

Headso: While things are getting worse I think you got a ways to go until it gets back to the point where people get violent.


Make no mistake about it.  The people don't get violent when they organized.  They are always suppressed by state at the behest of the the owner of a company.  Any violence on the part of workers is always self defense.
 
2013-12-03 04:26:38 PM  

GoldSpider: cameroncrazy1984: GoldSpider: cameroncrazy1984: GoldSpider: He's also not talking about forcing kids to work 70-hour work-weeks.

Not saying I agree with him, but the hyperbole doesn't help the case against this idea.

What hyperbole? Is he talking about legislation that would limit overtime for children?

What jobs are you aware of that force anyone under age 18 to work overtime?

I don't know, you tell me. I would assume we're talking about full-time jobs. Do you know any full-time jobs that do not offer overtime?

I don't know of any full-time jobs that hire children.


Porn
 
2013-12-03 04:27:05 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: Why is it you're ok with 12 year olds entering the work force at a slave wage?


I'm ok with people making money for their effort.  At 12 I was a paper carrier.  At 12 my daughter was a chambermaid at a bed and breakfast in the neighborhood.  At 12 my sons were helping mow lawns.

Call me old fashioned, but I don't see anything wrong with that.   But it's all presumptively illegal in Maine.

Was it a slave wage because my 12-year-old daughter couldn't afford an apartment, health care, food, and birth control?  Give me a break.

Look, you're going to get your basic wish:  all too many of our kids will grow up to be utterly dependent on the government.  Can't you let some of them have a shot at a reasonable degree of self-sufficiency?  Or does that offend your delicate sensibilities too much?
 
2013-12-03 04:27:55 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: That's because  it's illegal


Even if that were true (kids can work full-time during summers) what business do you think will A. hire a kid full-time and have to pay benefits, and B. be willing to pay them time and a half for overtime??
 
2013-12-03 04:29:22 PM  
Garet Garrett: Can't you let some of them have a shot at a reasonable degree of self-sufficiency?

media.salon.com
 
2013-12-03 04:29:27 PM  

mrlewish: So will this apply to brothels?


//...wait.. I'll be back, someone is knocking on my door........


Kind of...

Child porn victim seeking $3.4M from the thousands of 'sick' men who have viewed pictures of her abuse

Next month, the Supreme Court will consider what the men who took pleasure from viewing Amy's abuse must pay her.
 
2013-12-03 04:29:28 PM  

Garet Garrett: Look, you're going to get your basic wish:  all too many of our kids will grow up to be utterly dependent on the government.  Can't you let some of them have a shot at a reasonable degree of self-sufficiency?  Or does that offend your delicate sensibilities too much?


Forget it, man, you're dealing with people whose parents paid them a weekly allowance for the privilege of calling them their kid.
 
2013-12-03 04:32:47 PM  

GoldSpider: Garet Garrett: Look, you're going to get your basic wish:  all too many of our kids will grow up to be utterly dependent on the government.  Can't you let some of them have a shot at a reasonable degree of self-sufficiency?  Or does that offend your delicate sensibilities too much?

Forget it, man, you're dealing with people whose parents paid them a weekly allowance for the privilege of calling them their kid.


yeah he's the reasonable one, using infrastructure built by the government to whine about all our kids being dependent on the government.
 
2013-12-03 04:33:22 PM  

o5iiawah: I love how the traditional crop of leftists are equating making it legal for 12-16 year olds to work to slave labor (where they would be forced to work).
Rubberized goalposts are going to be needed for the rest of this thread.


I have news for you.

In a second gilded age, you would be a poor share cropper looking for work. Your masters will not save you.
 
2013-12-03 04:36:27 PM  

Smidge204: The typical Republican stance on public education is perfectly in line with their overall mentality of returning to a romanticized/fictional version of a 17th century society.


Actually, the typical republican stance on education is that parents should be able to decide where their child goes to school based on the school's ability to meet the needs of the child.

The typical progressive argument for education is to maintain what we have been doing for another 150 years and who see quality control as paying more to those who administer it.  Kids to go schools not based on their propensities to learn or the school's ability to teach but on where they live in a bus route.  I hate to break it to you, but every dollar into the NEA gets you more of what you just sneered at as ineffectual, outdated and inflexible.

HotWingConspiracy: Why is it you're ok with 12 year olds entering the work force at a slave wage?


define a "slave wage"

FarkedOver: all things that were fought hard for by leftist activists.


No they werent.  The 8 hour day/40 hour week was put into place by Henry Ford for his non-UAW workers.

Fart_Machine: Yup academics and music lessons bad. Menial labor for lower wages good. You're a genius.


Likewise, nobody learns anything at their first job, or acquires skills.  You're argumentative for the sake of it and you only sound stupid in doing so.
 
2013-12-03 04:37:29 PM  
Here's a revolutionary idea.  Children remain in school until 18.  Here's another revolutionary idea; instead of the 8 hour work day we have a 6 hour work day (with no detrimental change in pay)? It's the 21st century..... we fought for the 8 hour work day in the 19th century..... technology has come a long way to help ease the burden of all workers to shorten the work day and without having to have children enter the work force.
 
2013-12-03 04:38:38 PM  

o5iiawah: No they werent. The 8 hour day/40 hour week was put into place by Henry Ford for his non-UAW workers.


Go read up on the IWW, chief.  The struggle started long before Nazi Ford started producing Model Ts
 
2013-12-03 04:38:42 PM  
Hmm, letting 12-14 year olds having something like weekend jobs as grocery store baggers at a lower than normal wage (provided the unions let them) sounds like a nifty way for kids to get some spending money.

Money they'll spend on drugs and ATHEISM!

Chew on that one, conservatives.
 
2013-12-03 04:41:53 PM  

Peki: Really? You don't think half of this country's children would immediately be pulled out of school if it were legal for them to work full-time instead?


TFA mentions 10 hrs/wk for 12-14 year olds and 15 hrs/wk for 14-16 year olds.  Where are you getting that 12 year olds are being pulled out of school to work full-time?

Like I was saying about the goalposts...

Obama's Reptiloid Master: In a second gilded age, you would be a poor share cropper looking for work. Your masters will not save you.


How did this enter your head as making any sense whatsoever?
 
2013-12-03 04:43:38 PM  

FarkedOver: o5iiawah: No they werent. The 8 hour day/40 hour week was put into place by Henry Ford for his non-UAW workers.

Go read up on the IWW, chief.  The struggle started long before Nazi Ford started producing Model Ts


Ford was no more a Nazi then your buddy Woodrow Wilson - and the struggle continues today because the UAW cant seem to get a contract for its workers which paid as much as Ford paid his.
 
2013-12-03 04:45:52 PM  

o5iiawah: TFA mentions 10 hrs/wk for 12-14 year olds and 15 hrs/wk for 14-16 year olds.  Where are you getting that 12 year olds are being pulled out of school to work full-time?Like I was saying about the goalposts...


The full-time was from elsewhere in the thread, not you specifically. My point stands. How many people do you think would pull their kids out of school if they could to help pay the bills?

I'm thinking that so long as the number is non-zero, we need laws to keep kids in school. Otherwise people are too quick to sacrifice long-term gains for short-term profit.
 
2013-12-03 04:46:00 PM  

o5iiawah: Ford was no more a Nazi


You may want to read up on your anti-Semite pal Ford.  He was pretty bad.  Woodrow Wilson was no buddy of mine.  He had thousands arrested illegally for speaking out against WW1 and its imperialist nature.

And as to the rest of your post, um ok.
 
2013-12-03 04:46:45 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: FarkedOver: cameroncrazy1984: FarkedOver: Haymarket Affair and Minneapolis in the 1930s - All feel good movements

Yep. Was the 40 hour work week commonplace following the Haymarket affair? No? Huh. Wonder what it took to codify that.

More direct action via organizing at the workplace, obviously.  I'm glad you had no other retort to the rest of my comment and I take your silence as agreement.

Really. All this direct action passed laws? Funny, I thought it took electing Congressmen and Senators, proposing, writing and passing legislation that made it legal.


Martyrs.

It took having enough people know other people that got shot, beaten up, or killed, just because they wanted some more rights on the job to force their congressmen and Senators to also fight for those rights.
 
2013-12-03 04:47:34 PM  

o5iiawah: Actually, the typical republican stance on education is that parents should be able to decide where their child goes to school based on the school's ability to meet the needs of the child.


Actually, the typical republican stance is to take money that was supposed to go into public schools and send their kids to for profit charter schools where only the best and brightest are accepted. This in turn offsets the scales and makes the the charter school look far better then the public school since only ideal students attend. In fact in most cases the charter schools under perform or at best match most public schools on every metric. To which republicans respond by removing any examination of those charter schools that would establish a metric of comparison. Essentially, lowering the tide and sinking all the boats. The money would have been better spent finding a solution to our failing public education rather than making a few feel like nobles and sending their kids to "private" schools that neither match real private schools in either prestige or cost.

No they werent.  The 8 hour day/40 hour week was put into place by Henry Ford for his non-UAW workers.

Seriously???? Yes, Ford did establish a 40hr work week. But his operation was a tiny, tiny fraction of the work force. It was FDR, Justice Black, before he was a Justice and Congress expanding the New Deal that pushed for it nationally, establish 40hr plus overtime pay for greater than 40hrs for MOST jobs.
 
2013-12-03 04:47:40 PM  
o5iiawah: The 8 hour day/40 hour week was put into place by Henry Ford for his non-UAW workers.

Dude, you's trollin'
 
2013-12-03 04:51:04 PM  

physt: Triple Oak: Employ all the kids you want, Maine, you're practically far enough away to be Canada and very little benefits are being seen from your state anyway. What's the major export, lobster?


King is now a snowbird. Lives half the year in Fl.
 
2013-12-03 04:55:09 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Maine Gov. Paul LePage (R), who championed a measure in March 2011 that would not only allow kids as young as 12 to get jobs, but would also allow employers to pay children less than the minimum wage.

OK, US - you do know that the rest of the world is noticing that, while you're the richest nation on earth, you're also working hard to be the most socially backward, right?  And you're working hard to create a State where the haves are filthy rich while the have-nots are slaves, with no real middle class.  Right?  You do see that.  Right?


The irony is all this "freedom" is mostly being done in the name of making the US into China.
 
2013-12-03 04:55:43 PM  
Garet Garret, your new name is coontcoont. so people know where to kick kick you.
 
2013-12-03 04:59:58 PM  
So, we'd have 100% employment if we didnt have to pay all those people!
 
2013-12-03 05:01:57 PM  

Tigger: Benevolent Misanthrope: Maine Gov. Paul LePage (R), who championed a measure in March 2011 that would not only allow kids as young as 12 to get jobs, but would also allow employers to pay children less than the minimum wage.

OK, US - you do know that the rest of the world is noticing that, while you're the richest nation on earth, you're also working hard to be the most socially backward, right?  And you're working hard to create a State where the haves are filthy rich while the have-nots are slaves, with no real middle class.  Right?  You do see that.  Right?

This sounds a lot like socialism and unfreedoms to me.


Double-plus ungood.
 
2013-12-03 05:02:18 PM  

Peki: How many people do you think would pull their kids out of school if they could to help pay the bills?


TFA also mentions that lowering the work age simply lowers the age at which a young person can apply for a work permit - a permit that has to be reviewed by someone at the state.  Ergo, there isn't anyone pulling their 12 year old out of public school and tossing them into a salt mine.    Besides, it is illegal just about everywhere for kids under 16 not to be in school and a full-time job would preclude them from this.

What is being suggested by Maine (work permits issued to people as young as 12 (with parental consent) to work small amounts of time per week, is not this doomsday scenario where parents are yanking their kids out of school and sending them off to factories and stockyards.  You're projecting this slope which doesn't exist and has little to do with what is being proposed.

Just stop it already.


SuperTramp: Dude, you's trollin'


Ok, so tell me where I'm wrong then.  Enough with the "Trollin" bullshiat when you read a fact you cant handle.

Chewb1zz: Actually, the typical republican stance is to take money that was supposed to go into public schools


wait, I just got told the public schools are antiquated relics that are failing miserably....

Chewb1zz: and send their kids to for profit charter schools where only the best and brightest are accepted.


Not true, most charter schools accept students by lottery.  They are traditionally more diverse economically and ethnically then public schools which base their student body on geography, often showing a sharp divide between affluent suburb and inner city.  I'm excited to read the rest of your moronic rant already...

Chewb1zz: In fact in most cases the charter schools under perform or at best match most public schools on every metric


Also not true.  Some charter schools do fail and parents then have the choice to remove their kids from them.  In regards to public schools that fail, parents have no choice at all.  I think you'd prefer the latter though - where a student's destiny is determined by where they live in a bus route.

Chewb1zz: To which republicans respond by removing any examination of those charter schools that would establish a metric of comparison


traditional "Republican" plans involve a basic pay package for teachers with merit increases.  This is the exact thing the NEA opposes and yet somehow you have it in your mind that school choice advocates want to remove testing.

Chewb1zz: The money would have been better spent finding a solution to our failing public education


 We did it your way for 200 years and now China and India produce 13 year olds that can get into our best engineering Universities.

Chewb1zz: Yes, Ford did establish a 40hr work week.


Which was my original point.
 
2013-12-03 05:07:47 PM  
How about enforcing a 40 hour work week across the board? I know people like Goldman Sachs and the white shoe law firms would cry like spoiled brats, but seriously, having people worked 60 hours a week without overtime, is just not a good thing.
 
2013-12-03 05:08:15 PM  

GoldSpider: cameroncrazy1984: That's because  it's illegal

Even if that were true (kids can work full-time during summers) what business do you think will A. hire a kid full-time and have to pay benefits, and B. be willing to pay them time and a half for overtime??



I think you are getting a bit carried away with the fulltime issue.  Governor LePage actually recommended time limits for each age group that started round 12hrs a week.


Before you go painting dark pictures of children toiling away in the mines, let's start focusing more on reality.

I spent my teen years in Maine before the age limits were set in place.  We were not wealthy, and as a kid, I was always needing money.  For the most part, I was pretty creative about coming up with money making schemes:  door to door offers of lawn mowing and general grounds maintenance, selling candy and drinks at sporting events, shoveling driveways in the winter.  At times when the weather wasn't warm enough to sell cold drinks, or snow was out of season, I could always rely on some of the standby's that kids under 16 are currently banned from: news paper delivery, stuffing ads in the newspapers, sweeping parking lots.  Central Maine has a thriving agricultural economy.  If a kid under the age of 16 were up to it, there was apple picking late summer, cleaning out horse stalls and chicken sheds, or general labor during the planting and harvesting season.  There were unlimited tourist hospitality positions along the coast; carnival help, auction and flea market runners were always needed, or working at hotels and golf courses.  Even for a boy as young as twelve there were numerous choices that did not tax the brain or body too badly, gave a kid the opportunity to put aside some spending money, and usually got him in with a great group of kids that often grew into friendships.  Compared to shoveling driveways and apartment rooftops, or carrying bricks at a construction site while overseas in Teheran, working in Maine was a breeze.  Maybe the snow and horse shiat shoveling was pretty tough on a kid but these jobs didn't usually last all that long and the payout was usually pretty good.

To be honest, my most loathsome and brain melting mainstream job I performed was working at McDonalds for 6 weeks when I was 15.  Too many rules, too little respect, and not a lot to show for it.

Sadly, unless you are 15 or older, most of these opportunities are lost
 
2013-12-03 05:12:07 PM  
WTF, Maine? You voted for this guy? I used to think you were cool.
 
2013-12-03 05:15:05 PM  
I am pleasantly surprised with fark for once. I half expected that this thread would be dominated by the Fark IndependentTM Pearl Clutching Squad complaining about the sarcastic quip about slavery.
 
2013-12-03 05:15:25 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Benevolent Misanthrope: Maine Gov. Paul LePage (R), who championed a measure in March 2011 that would not only allow kids as young as 12 to get jobs, but would also allow employers to pay children less than the minimum wage.

OK, US - you do know that the rest of the world is noticing that, while you're the richest nation on earth, you're also working hard to be the most socially backward, right?  And you're working hard to create a State where the haves are filthy rich while the have-nots are slaves, with no real middle class.  Right?  You do see that.  Right?

I've been seeing it since Reagan took office.  Something will have to give eventually.  Unfortunately it will probably be really ugly when it happens.


Yup, this trend started with Reagan and his "voodoo economics" and his election empowered the regressive reactionaries to an absurd degree to the point we are at now. It's going to be ugly when the pendulum swings back to the progressives, but I hope it happens soon. The illusion of "freedom and liberty" that these "conservatives" are throwing up over their policies is going to disappear, and I can't wait for that to happen.
 
2013-12-03 05:16:16 PM  

o5iiawah: What is being suggested by Maine (work permits issued to people as young as 12 (with parental consent) to work small amounts of time per week, is not this doomsday scenario where parents are yanking their kids out of school and sending them off to factories and stockyards.  You're projecting this slope which doesn't exist and has little to do with what is being proposed.


Sure. Because I didn't see at least half a dozen kids drop out of high school to take several part time jobs to support their families. Because I didn't experience poverty as a kid, and know how easy it would be to get a kid to agree to work for his family if he thinks they are in danger (the whole stranger needs help with fluffy? Times that by about a thousand). Because I didn't get a work permit myself as a kid, and get subjected to all sorts of under-the-table nastiness (up to and including unsafe business practices that resulted in injuries to myself and another worker) and pressure because it's just a law that doesn't matter if it's not enforced.

No. This is wrongheaded, and we need to cut this off at the pass. We ought to be going the other direction, making it as easy for kids to stay in school as long as they want. The whole association of earning an income with being a good person is ridiculous and we need to stop it. Earning money does not build character; it simply shows you how to manipulate the world.
 
2013-12-03 05:20:20 PM  

o5iiawah: hat is being suggested by Maine (work permits issued to people as young as 12 (with parental consent) to work small amounts of time per week, is not this doomsday scenario where parents are yanking their kids out of school and sending them off to factories and stockyards.  You're projecting this slope which doesn't exist and has little to do with what is being proposed.


How is this supposed to help with the unemployment problem?
 
2013-12-03 05:20:37 PM  

Peki: Benevolent Misanthrope: Peki: Benevolent Misanthrope: Maine Gov. Paul LePage (R), who championed a measure in March 2011 that would not only allow kids as young as 12 to get jobs, but would also allow employers to pay children less than the minimum wage.

OK, US - you do know that the rest of the world is noticing that, while you're the richest nation on earth, you're also working hard to be the most socially backward, right?  And you're working hard to create a State where the haves are filthy rich while the have-nots are slaves, with no real middle class.  Right?  You do see that.  Right?

Yes.

Any chance I could marry you to get a green card to Canada?

/Bonus: I qualify for perm residency on my own anyway. I got my BA in Canada. I'm half Canadian already!
//would seriously consider it if she wasn't with a fiance who really does treat her like a queen

I don't even have my green card yet.  I am a guest of the State.  And they still treat me better than my home country.

LOL. I believe it. Guest of the State is an interesting phrase though. Care to elaborate?

/miss Edmonton so much I can smell it sometimes


I'm officially classified as a Guest Worker.  My work permit was for 2 years, and I'll have to keep re-upping it until/unless I get permanent residence in Canada.  I pay for and get health care and all the other amenities (3 pensions, for example), but I can't vote until I'm a citizen.
 
2013-12-03 05:26:20 PM  

FarkedOver: I hate this country so hard.


II don't hate the country; I hate the people that biatch and moan about "X" candidate/politician after they had a chance to snuff them out in a vote and didn't show up to do so.
 
2013-12-03 05:28:08 PM  
It's already perfectly legal to enslave kids.

They just kinda technically have to be your own.
 
2013-12-03 05:29:40 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: I'm officially classified as a Guest Worker.  My work permit was for 2 years, and I'll have to keep re-upping it until/unless I get permanent residence in Canada.  I pay for and get health care and all the other amenities (3 pensions, for example), but I can't vote until I'm a citizen.


Ah okay. We would probably apply as Skilled Worker class for perm residency unless we got a job offer first. I have the points because of getting my education there and being bilingual French, but the fiance's career is music, so unless I can convince him to pursue his graduate studies at the U of A, we're stuck in Los Angeles (can't blame him; it's where his industry is).
 
2013-12-03 05:40:37 PM  

Peki: Because I didn't see at least half a dozen kids drop out of high school to take several part time jobs to support their families


This is allowed in most places at 16, when kids can emancipate themselves from school.  Maine isn't suggesting lowering the emancipation age from 16 to 12.

This is the third time you've put forth the: "If we allow X then surely Y is right around the corner!" argument.

Peki: The whole association of earning an income with being a good person is ridiculous and we need to stop it. Earning money does not build character;


Actually this has more to do with developing job skills and workplace relationships than it has to do with the $50 or so per week that hypothetical kid is likely to pull in.  This whole "We need to do XYZ" is stupid.  If you want your kids to stay in school forever and learn about how the world is stacked against them, knock yourself out.  Allow parents who think that their 14-15 year olds should be developing job skills do so.

I did not grow up in any set of affluent circumstances either but I am thankful that there were opportunities for me at 15 to work so that I could gain a little independence, save up for a 50cc scooter, go on a few school field trips and avoid those all-too-awkward back to school shopping experiences with my parents.

cameroncrazy1984: How is this supposed to help with the unemployment problem?


a 14 year old part-time worker can be hired in for less than minimum wage and a business owner may be willing to pay this, versus the current minimum wage.  Often these jobs are just things like stocking, breaking down boxes, sweeping floors, inventory.

When the 14 year old enters the real economy at 18-21, (s)he already has a few years of work experience and can command a higher wage from employers.  When we create a barrier to employment, everyone enters the workforce between 16-18 with the same level of skills - zero.

I worked at a bookstore in high school doing data entry, shelving, cleaning, basic retail, etc.  I did the same thing in college at a textbook store only there I was able to negotiate a better starting rate than the pennies over minimum they paid college kids because i already knew the inventory systems they used and had a good understanding of how the industry worked.  It was worth it to them to pay me the extra buck an hour because I didn't require any training, could train others and provided them value at the onset of my employment.  the "slave wage" job I had at 15 afforded me more wages and a leadership position in my next job at 18

This is kind of how employment works, actually.
 
2013-12-03 06:09:33 PM  

Peki: o5iiawah: What is being suggested by Maine (work permits issued to people as young as 12 (with parental consent) to work small amounts of time per week, is not this doomsday scenario where parents are yanking their kids out of school and sending them off to factories and stockyards.  You're projecting this slope which doesn't exist and has little to do with what is being proposed.

Sure. Because I didn't see at least half a dozen kids drop out of high school to take several part time jobs to support their families. Because I didn't experience poverty as a kid, and know how easy it would be to get a kid to agree to work for his family if he thinks they are in danger (the whole stranger needs help with fluffy? Times that by about a thousand). Because I didn't get a work permit myself as a kid, and get subjected to all sorts of under-the-table nastiness (up to and including unsafe business practices that resulted in injuries to myself and another worker) and pressure because it's just a law that doesn't matter if it's not enforced.

No. This is wrongheaded, and we need to cut this off at the pass. We ought to be going the other direction, making it as easy for kids to stay in school as long as they want. The whole association of earning an income with being a good person is ridiculous and we need to stop it. Earning money does not build character; it simply shows you how to manipulate the world.



Started working at a fairly young age.  My brainwashing toward my eventual manipulative self started at around 8 when I received an allowance for general responsibilities;  keeping my room clean, taking out the garbage, help push the lawn mower in the summer, rake in the fall and shovel the entry to the driveway in the winter when it snowed.  If we wanted to make a little extra money, we could shovel all of the driveway, weeding in the garden, or do our own laundry.

By 12, I found myself in Teheran with my brother and mom.  At .15 a piece, I ran the bottles game for 2 years in school, racing out of my classes to pick up the coke bottles left behind by the affluent kids then cache them in lockers during the day; cash them that evening before going home.  Pretty good haul at roughly 5-7 dollars a day!  My greed and desire for world domination- and my first five speed Raleigh--  was just too great to be sated with a fiver once a week that I had been still getting at home so I expanded selling cold drinks, barbecued ears of corn, and American made stuff (clothing, pencils, odds and ends we brought with us but outgrew) at a nearby park.  In the winters, my brother and self took cue from our hosts and shoveled apartment roofs.  Did some time carrying bricks for our landlord, worked in a family run business manufacturing shoe fittings that kept one from falling on the ice.

Now hardened in the sweatshops of Iran, I came back to the United States undefeatable ready to take my place amongst the industrial giants: paperboy, newspaper ad stuffer, a humbling stint at McDonalds, babysitter and kid watcher, and finally honed down through an endless series of dishwashing gigs only to reinvent myself as the malevolent, manipulative bastard that I have become today.
 
2013-12-03 06:11:27 PM  
www.msnbc.com

"I love children - they're delicious."
 
2013-12-03 06:24:08 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-12-03 06:26:58 PM  
www.awsg.us

We need children soldiers!
 
2013-12-03 06:30:35 PM  
FarkedOver: But child labor, the 8 hour work day, safety on the job.... all things that were fought hard for by leftist activists.

o5iiawah: No they werent. The 8 hour day/40 hour week was put into place by Henry Ford for his non-UAW workers.

SuperTramp: Dude, you's trollin'

o5iiawah: Ok, so tell me where I'm wrong then. Enough with the "Trollin" bullshiat when you read a fact you cant handle.

Your reply in the above exchange completely discounts the labor movement who fought for decades - hell, going back to the early 1800's -- for improved conditions for American workers. Sure, Mr. Ford voluntarily adopted the 8/40 in 1914, but it was another 33 years before it was standardized in the US as part of the FLSA of 1937. Oh, and the first UAW contract with Ford wasn't signed until 1941.
 
2013-12-03 07:20:26 PM  

o5iiawah: I worked at a bookstore in high school doing data entry, shelving, cleaning, basic retail, etc.  I did the same thing in college at a textbook store only there I was able to negotiate a better starting rate than the pennies over minimum they paid college kids because i already knew the inventory systems they used and had a good understanding of how the industry worked.  It was worth it to them to pay me the extra buck an hour because I didn't require any training, could train others and provided them value at the onset of my employment.  the "slave wage" job I had at 15 afforded me more wages and a leadership position in my next job at 18


Just out of curiosity, how long ago was this?
 
2013-12-03 08:19:35 PM  

llortcM_yllort: Just out of curiosity, how long ago was this?


graduated HS in 02, college in 06
 
2013-12-03 08:42:08 PM  

o5iiawah: Actually, the typical republican stance on education is that parents should be able to decide where their child goes to school based on the school's ability to meet the needs of the child.


It really isn't, though, because they do not allow any provisions for people to have the means to send their children to good schools. In other words, they support parents being able to choose their child's school if and only if they can afford it. If they implement a voucher system they will find every way possible to eliminate it because "government spending" and "why should I pay to send your child to school?" (See also: food stamps, healthcare)

Then there's a not insignificant portion of these people who see a voucher system as a means to funnel public money into private schools, where they can insert religious worldviews on the taxpayer's dime because private schools are exempt from the separation clause of the 1st Amendment.

If left to run things the way they want, we'd end up with an educated privileged class and an uneducated worker/indentured servitude class. Exactly like what we had pre-industrial revolution.


o5iiawah: The typical progressive argument for education is to maintain what we have been doing for another 150 years and who see quality control as paying more to those who administer it


Also wrong - a "progressive" would want to improve the school system. More funding so they can hire more teachers and improve the teacher:student ratio. Better facilities, broa der curriculum, longer school hours, more after school activities (particularly important for poorer neighborhoods), reintroducing vocational training classes, trying new teaching methods... the list goes on.
=Smidge=
 
2013-12-03 08:45:16 PM  
Once again, if you vote Republican, you are either an idiot, an asshole, or both. Democrats are far from perfect, but they are farking paragons compared to the GOP .

 As long as these scumbags are holding America back, the United States will never be exceptional again.
 
2013-12-03 09:01:47 PM  

o5iiawah: Smidge204: The typical Republican stance on public education is perfectly in line with their overall mentality of returning to a romanticized/fictional version of a 17th century society.

Actually, the typical republican stance on education is that parents should be able to decide where their child goes to school based on the school's ability to meet the needs of the child.

The typical progressive argument for education is to maintain what we have been doing for another 150 years and who see quality control as paying more to those who administer it.  Kids to go schools not based on their propensities to learn or the school's ability to teach but on where they live in a bus route.  I hate to break it to you, but every dollar into the NEA gets you more of what you just sneered at as ineffectual, outdated and inflexible.

HotWingConspiracy: Why is it you're ok with 12 year olds entering the work force at a slave wage?

define a "slave wage"

FarkedOver: all things that were fought hard for by leftist activists.

No they werent.  The 8 hour day/40 hour week was put into place by Henry Ford for his non-UAW workers.

Fart_Machine: Yup academics and music lessons bad. Menial labor for lower wages good. You're a genius.

Likewise, nobody learns anything at their first job, or acquires skills.  You're argumentative for the sake of it and you only sound stupid in doing so.


Pushing a broom for less than minimum wage beats academics. Yeah I can see where you went wrong. Hurry up with my fries!
 
2013-12-03 09:35:26 PM  

LordJiro: Democrats are far from perfect, but they are farking paragons compared to the GOP .


download.gameblog.fr

Totally. Look at that, barely any renegade whatsoever.

Compare that to the GOP's last candidate...
pbs.twimg.com
 
2013-12-03 09:59:10 PM  
Glad to see our laughingstock of a governor is really tackling the issues that matter.
 
2013-12-03 10:07:54 PM  

SuperTramp: FarkedOver: But child labor, the 8 hour work day, safety on the job.... all things that were fought hard for by leftist activists.

o5iiawah: No they werent. The 8 hour day/40 hour week was put into place by Henry Ford for his non-UAW workers.

SuperTramp: Dude, you's trollin'

o5iiawah: Ok, so tell me where I'm wrong then. Enough with the "Trollin" bullshiat when you read a fact you cant handle.

Your reply in the above exchange completely discounts the labor movement who fought for decades - hell, going back to the early 1800's -- for improved conditions for American workers. Sure, Mr. Ford voluntarily adopted the 8/40 in 1914, but it was another 33 years before it was standardized in the US as part of the FLSA of 1937. Oh, and the first UAW contract with Ford wasn't signed until 1941.


And that was only after Mob-connected goons hired by Ford killed a couple people in a strike at a Ford plant.
 
2013-12-03 10:43:48 PM  
One boy,
Boy for sale.
He's going cheap.
Only seven guineas.
That -- or thereabouts.

Small boy...
Rather pale...
From lack of sleep.
Feed him gruel dinners.
Stop him getting stout.

If I should say he wasn't very greedy...
I could not, I'd be telling you a tale.
One boy,
Boy for sale.
Come take a peep.
Have you ever seen as
Nice
A boy
For sale.
 
2013-12-03 11:00:37 PM  
Anyone else notice that the GOP and their wealthy puppeteers are slowly trying to bring us back to the slave-wage labor, child labor, debtor's prisons, etc. of the early industrial revolution?
 
2013-12-03 11:24:13 PM  

chuggernaught: Anyone else notice that the GOP and their wealthy puppeteers are slowly trying to bring us back to the slave-wage labor, child labor, debtor's prisons, etc. of the early industrial revolution?


"Bring us back"?! Those were the good old days. Days when you could lose a finger in the meat packing plant and have it wind up on someone's dinner plate! Man, I sure do miss those days.
 
2013-12-03 11:33:34 PM  

Smidge204: If they implement a voucher system they will find every way possible to eliminate it because


What in God's name are you talking about?  Do you know how retarded this sounds?

Smidge204: It really isn't, though, because they do not allow any provisions for people to have the means to send their children to good schools. In other words, they support parents being able to choose their child's school if and only if they can afford it.


So it is now clear you me you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.  I'll help if only to stop this runaway train you're on.  Those who believe in school choice feel that each parent in a school district should receive $n credit towards educating their child.  - roughly equivalent to the school board budget divided by the number of students.  If the parent wants to send their student to the public school, great.  If they want to send their student to the private school or charter school, they should be given a voucher since they've ALREADY PAID FOR THE PUBLIC SCHOOL AND ARE NOT SENDING THEIR KID THERE BECAUSE THE SCHOOL SUCKS.

Smidge204:
Then there's a not insignificant portion of these people who see a voucher system as a means to funnel public money into private schools, where they can insert religious worldviews on the taxpayer's dime because private schools are exempt from the separation clause of the 1st Amendment.

he idea of school choice is to allow parents to send their kids to schools which best meet the needs of their children, whether they want a trade-based education, arts, STEM, montessori, military, boarding, etc.  It is not a secret plan to indoctrinate and convert as many kids as possible into Christians.  Most private schools are entirely secular.  That is some fine Alex Jones level paranoia....

Smidge204: Also wrong - a "progressive" would want to improve the school system. More funding so they can hire more teachers and improve the teacher:student ratio.


So please explain how "More funding" to push an early 1800's model of education is going to improve the school system?  Because aggregate state/federal/local spending per student has doubled since 1970 and like i said, China and India are sending 13 year olds to our best engineering colleges.

...what I was saying about progressives thinking more money at a problem solves it.

chuggernaught: Anyone else notice that the GOP and their wealthy puppeteers are slowly trying to bring us back to the slave-wage labor, child labor, debtor's prisons, etc. of the early industrial revolution?


Because allowing 15 year olds to work 15 hours/week with parent/state permission is slave-wage labor and debtors prisons.
I cant honestly understand how progressives can listen to themselves and take their arguments seriously.
 
2013-12-03 11:50:39 PM  

o5iiawah: Because aggregate state/federal/local spending per student has doubled since 1970


I would hope so since a dollar in 1970 would be $5.37 today.
 
2013-12-04 02:22:02 AM  

SuperTramp: FarkedOver: But child labor, the 8 hour work day, safety on the job.... all things that were fought hard for by leftist activists.

o5iiawah: No they werent. The 8 hour day/40 hour week was put into place by Henry Ford for his non-UAW workers.

SuperTramp: Dude, you's trollin'

o5iiawah: Ok, so tell me where I'm wrong then. Enough with the "Trollin" bullshiat when you read a fact you cant handle.

Your reply in the above exchange completely discounts the labor movement who fought for decades - hell, going back to the early 1800's -- for improved conditions for American workers. Sure, Mr. Ford voluntarily adopted the 8/40 in 1914, but it was another 33 years before it was standardized in the US as part of the FLSA of 1937. Oh, and the first UAW contract with Ford wasn't signed until 1941.


Oh snap!
 
2013-12-04 02:51:35 AM  
Does Maine have a labor shortage?  If it has any unemployed adults, maybe those could be hired in place of 12 year olds.
 
2013-12-04 03:29:28 AM  

cameroncrazy1984: FarkedOver: I'm sorry you're anti-labor.  But child labor, the 8 hour work day, safety on the job.... all things that were fought hard for by leftist activist

Sure they were, but how did they become law?

Apparently I'm anti-labor for supporting things that actually help labor, rather than a feel-good movement.


I believe they became law because workers in factory towns would go on strike and company owners would have guys with guns take care of business. And it happened in other places like New York as well.

Basically there were occasionally pitched battles often involving cops, military etc and the government decided to end the bloodshed by forcing companies to give in.

Then we all went shopping ans forgot the pitched battles that paid for our ability to shop with actual money instead of scrip and let our kids grow up to have real choices.

That is how we got those things. The companies and the Pinkerton's and the politicians hope we stay at the mall while they take away those gains. Eventually the mall closes though. The powers that be are doing everything they can to make sure we hate the organizing principles so they can win the next round.

/there's always a next round
//when they say freedom isn't free they aren't talking about foreign threats
///maybe we can push the revolution back another generation, people suck at action these days
 
2013-12-04 05:11:48 AM  

o5iiawah: What in God's name are you talking about? Do you know how retarded this sounds?


So you're saying that the Republican party has no history of trying to cut funding for public programs? Seriously?


o5iiawah: If they want to send their student to the private school or charter school, they should be given a voucher since they've ALREADY PAID FOR THE PUBLIC SCHOOL AND ARE NOT SENDING THEIR KID THERE BECAUSE THE SCHOOL SUCKS.


They also already paid for roads they'll never drive on, food they'll never eat, medical care they'll never get...

All this accomplishes is taking money away from a school system that's already strapped and funneling it into an institution that isn't. I believe if the flow of money were reversed you'd be calling it "socialism."

But no, let's ruin society more because fark you, I got mine.

And let's not forget that private schools are allowed to deny or expel students while public schools must accept everybody. If there is any difference in performance between public and private schools (and I'm not entirely convinced there is) that's probably a big part of it, don't ya think?


o5iiawah: So please explain how "More funding" to push an early 1800's model of education is going to improve the school system?


You don't seem to realize what the problem actually is, so of course you have no idea how to actually solve it. Your "solution" is for those who can afford it to abandon the sinking ship leaving millions of American children stranded.

I already described numerous ways additional funding could be used to improve the situation.

Hiring more teachers and building more classrooms to reduce the student:teacher ratio gives teachers more time to supervise and help individual students, which improves things immensely.

Better facilities and a fuller curriculum also help. I've spent ten years in school construction and it breaks my heart every time they tear out a biology or chemistry lab, or convert an auto/wood shop into offices. This is hands-on learning that's being thrown out because it's expensive, so they're the first things to go when budgets get tight... and they never come back. I know of two high schools (not my district, unfortunately) that had a goddamn planetarium. Attached to the main building, too. One of them was renovated into offices and the other was just used as a small auditorium space.

Please understand that not only do things get more expensive over time - not just because of inflation but just generally cost more - but the cost per student is not incremental. At some point your ability to handle the number of students is exceeded and you have to spend a lot more per additional student just to stay at the same level of performance. I've witnessed it personally... there are only so many seats you can wedge into a classrooms, so what do you suppose they do with the overspill? You can't send them home, so you have to spend money either busing them around or building new (often poor quality) "temporary" facilities with what little money you can squeeze out of your budget. That's how you end up with students spending all day in things like this which are often pressed into service well past their intended service life. I know of at least three case where they were literally condemned by the town, and these were not in what most would consider "poor" suburban school districts.


o5iiawah: Because allowing 15 year olds to work 15 hours/week with parent/state permission is slave-wage labor and debtors prisons.


You know what China and India don't do? They don't encourage their high school students to get jobs, so they can spend their time studying instead. That's part of how they're able to "send 13 year olds to our best engineering colleges."
=Smidge=
 
2013-12-04 07:37:03 AM  

Fart_Machine: I would hope so since a dollar in 1970 would be $5.37 today


That is adjusted for inflation.

Fart_Machine: Oh snap!


Snap what?  The Unions were salty about something that non-union workers were getting.  They didn't create the 40 hour week or the 8 hour day.  these existed before the unions and were only put into place afterwards.    So Ford not only paid his workers more than non-union workers, he gave them more time off and a better work day.  But Unions!!!

Smidge204: They also already paid for roads they'll never drive on, food they'll never eat, medical care they'll never get...


And there are some who think that making people pay taxes towards schools that suck and not affording them the option, lower income and minority parents especially from getting their kids out of failing schools.  "Suck it up and pay" is the progressive message for parents who send their kids to failing schools whereas the only thing the schools care about is more money for the teachers.

Or were you under a rock when Chicago teachers demanded a 16% pay increase?

Smidge204: If there is any difference in performance between public and private schools (and I'm not entirely convinced there is)


So yes, you have been living under a rock. The point isn't whether or not School A (public) stacks up to school B (private/charter) it is that a parent has a choice whether or not to send their kid to either and that in the age of the internet and most homes in America capable of getting 30/MBPS that we educate students based on a 200+ year old model.  As I said earlier, if a charter school isn't doing well, a parent can take their kid out of it.

 

Smidge204: I've spent ten years in school construction and it breaks my heart every time they tear out a biology or chemistry lab, or convert an auto/wood shop into offices


So it sounds like you're in agreement then that instead of a public school which focuses exclusively on teaching a set-in-stone curriculum then it should have class options. Welcome to my point all along.

Smidge204: Hiring more teachers and building more classrooms to reduce the student:teacher ratio gives teachers more time to supervise and help individual students, which improves things immensely.


Again, you're hiring more teachers to educate students based on a 200 year old model.  I think this is the 4th time I've brought this up.  MOAR teachers is not the answer.

Smidge204: You know what China and India don't do? They don't encourage their high school students to get jobs, so they can spend their time studying instead. That's part of how they're able to "send 13 year olds to our best engineering colleges."


you've obviously never been to either.
 
2013-12-04 09:59:20 AM  

o5iiawah: Chewb1zz: Actually, the typical republican stance is to take money that was supposed to go into public schools

wait, I just got told the public schools are antiquated relics that are failing miserably....


No you got told that we need to make the system better for all students rather than establish a separate system which as I will explain in a minute is no better and siphons money off from fixing the problem as whole.

Chewb1zz: and send their kids to for profit charter schools where only the best and brightest are accepted.

Not true, most charter schools accept students by lottery. They are traditionally more diverse economically and ethnically then public schools which base their student body on geography, often showing a sharp divide between affluent suburb and inner city. I'm excited to read the rest of your moronic rant already...


Also not true. Charter schools only hold lotteries if they are oversubscribed, meaning that there are more applicants than the school has room to accept. While a school's popularity does not inherently correspond with its quality, oversubscribed charter schools may be better on average than undersubscribed charter schools.

Chewb1zz: In fact in most cases the charter schools under perform or at best match most public schools on every metric

Also not true. Some charter schools do fail and parents then have the choice to remove their kids from them. In regards to public schools that fail, parents have no choice at all. I think you'd prefer the latter though - where a student's destiny is determined by where they live in a bus route.


Do you get tired of being wrong. Also not true.

The Center for Research on Education Outcomes (CREDO) at Stanford University found in a 2009 report that 17% of charter schools outperformed their public school equivalents, while 37% of charter schools performed worse than regular local schools, and the rest were about the same. A 2010 study by Mathematica Policy Research found that, on average, charter middle schools that held lotteries were neither more nor less successful than regular middle schools in improving student achievement, behavior, or school progress. Among the charter schools considered in the study, more had statistically significant negative effects on student achievement than statistically significant positive effects. These findings are echoed in a number of other studies.

Chewb1zz: To which republicans respond by removing any examination of those charter schools that would establish a metric of comparison

traditional "Republican" plans involve a basic pay package for teachers with merit increases. This is the exact thing the NEA opposes and yet somehow you have it in your mind that school choice advocates want to remove testing.


Charter schools don't by and large do merit pay. But I was talking about standradized metrics for student performance.

Chewb1zz: The money would have been better spent finding a solution to our failing public education

We did it your way for 200 years and now China and India produce 13 year olds that can get into our best engineering Universities.


Public funded school has not been around for 200 years. But maybe we should look at how India and China are educating their youths and see if we can import some of their ideas here. But that might require less blaming of teachers and focus more on parental controls, can't have that, that's there some socialism.

Chewb1zz: Yes, Ford did establish a 40hr work week.

Which was my original point.


No it wasn't. Your point was that Ford was more responsible for the 40hr work week then worker groups. But it took 12 years after Ford established a 40hr work week for it to become law. So the workers obviously had some effects in creating it rather then one company, cause we had a vastly larger worker base then was working at Ford in 1926.
 
2013-12-04 10:29:46 AM  

o5iiawah: As I said earlier, if a charter school isn't doing well, a parent can take their kid out of it.


A parent is capable of taking their child out of public school too. The only mandate is they receive at least an equivalent education. Problem is few can afford to do that.

And you seem to want to undermine the system even more, screwing the people who have no alternative. You must be one of those "compassionate conservatives" I used to hear so much about.


o5iiawah: Or were you under a rock when Chicago teachers demanded a 16% pay increase?


Are you one of those people who think a teacher earning $50K/yr is being paid too much, but a family household pulling in $250+/yr is on the verge of abject poverty? And before you trot out the $70+k salary number, that figure includes university staff which is not entirely apropos to the discussion at hand since it's not the university people that are looking for a raise. $50k is not as much as it sounds either; The US median salary is about that, and Chicago has a higher cost of living than most other places so that money doesn't go as far.

Or perhaps you support multi-million-dollar CEO salaries because "you need to pay top dollar for top talent" ? If you subscribe to that mentality, would that not also apply to teachers?


o5iiawah: Again, you're hiring more teachers to educate students based on a 200 year old model.


What model do you suppose charter schools use? If it's not exactly the same basic structure, it's an even older model.


o5iiawah: you've obviously never been to either.


And by the miracle of the Internet, I just happen to be talking to an expert on both Indian and Chinese culture and education, right?
=Smidge=
 
2013-12-04 11:10:39 AM  

o5iiawah: Fart_Machine: I would hope so since a dollar in 1970 would be $5.37 today

That is adjusted for inflation.

Fart_Machine: Oh snap!

Snap what?  The Unions were salty about something that non-union workers were getting.  They didn't create the 40 hour week or the 8 hour day.  these existed before the unions and were only put into place afterwards.    So Ford not only paid his workers more than non-union workers, he gave them more time off and a better work day.  But Unions!!!

Smidge204: They also already paid for roads they'll never drive on, food they'll never eat, medical care they'll never get...

And there are some who think that making people pay taxes towards schools that suck and not affording them the option, lower income and minority parents especially from getting their kids out of failing schools.  "Suck it up and pay" is the progressive message for parents who send their kids to failing schools whereas the only thing the schools care about is more money for the teachers.

Or were you under a rock when Chicago teachers demanded a 16% pay increase?

Smidge204: If there is any difference in performance between public and private schools (and I'm not entirely convinced there is)

So yes, you have been living under a rock. The point isn't whether or not School A (public) stacks up to school B (private/charter) it is that a parent has a choice whether or not to send their kid to either and that in the age of the internet and most homes in America capable of getting 30/MBPS that we educate students based on a 200+ year old model.  As I said earlier, if a charter school isn't doing well, a parent can take their kid out of it.

 Smidge204: I've spent ten years in school construction and it breaks my heart every time they tear out a biology or chemistry lab, or convert an auto/wood shop into offices

So it sounds like you're in agreement then that instead of a public school which focuses exclusively on teaching a set-in-stone curriculum then it should have class options. Welcome to my point all along.

Smidge204: Hiring more teachers and building more classrooms to reduce the student:teacher ratio gives teachers more time to supervise and help individual students, which improves things immensely.

Again, you're hiring more teachers to educate students based on a 200 year old model.  I think this is the 4th time I've brought this up.  MOAR teachers is not the answer.

Smidge204: You know what China and India don't do? They don't encourage their high school students to get jobs, so they can spend their time studying instead. That's part of how they're able to "send 13 year olds to our best engineering colleges."

you've obviously never been to either.


Wow you missed the point completely. Ford may have instituted it in 1922 but it took 16 years after that for it to become Federal law. That wasn't because of Ford; it was due to labor activists fighting for it. Same thing with child labor and worker safety laws.

But Ford!

Also saying we're paying twice as much as in 1970 is a useless figure (which you cribbed from the Cato Institute). Textbooks are certainly more expensive as are technology that didnt exist forty years ago. If you break it down by state with some exceptions the top 10 schools are those whose states have higher education budgets and the bottom spend the least. New York and Alaska are the exceptions on the high end and Colorado on the low side. Overall the conservative solution of cutting education to the bone hasn't worked out so well.

If you want to break it down worldwide Switzerland gets better results but spends more while China spends less but they're hardly the libertarian wet dream of free market education.
 
2013-12-04 11:14:45 AM  

Smidge204: o5iiawah: As I said earlier, if a charter school isn't doing well, a parent can take their kid out of it.

A parent is capable of taking their child out of public school too. The only mandate is they receive at least an equivalent education. Problem is few can afford to do that.

And you seem to want to undermine the system even more, screwing the people who have no alternative. You must be one of those "compassionate conservatives" I used to hear so much about.


o5iiawah: Or were you under a rock when Chicago teachers demanded a 16% pay increase?

Are you one of those people who think a teacher earning $50K/yr is being paid too much, but a family household pulling in $250+/yr is on the verge of abject poverty? And before you trot out the $70+k salary number, that figure includes university staff which is not entirely apropos to the discussion at hand since it's not the university people that are looking for a raise. $50k is not as much as it sounds either; The US median salary is about that, and Chicago has a higher cost of living than most other places so that money doesn't go as far.

Or perhaps you support multi-million-dollar CEO salaries because "you need to pay top dollar for top talent" ? If you subscribe to that mentality, would that not also apply to teachers?


o5iiawah: Again, you're hiring more teachers to educate students based on a 200 year old model.

What model do you suppose charter schools use? If it's not exactly the same basic structure, it's an even older model.


o5iiawah: you've obviously never been to either.

And by the miracle of the Internet, I just happen to be talking to an expert on both Indian and Chinese culture and education, right?
=Smidge=


Fun fact: most countries are also using that "200 year old" model.
 
2013-12-04 02:33:43 PM  

Fart_Machine: Fun fact: most countries are also using that "200 year old" model.


Indeed they do.

I didn't mean to imply that such a system is fundamentally broken with my original post, only that it is a relic of the industrial revolution. It could use some tweaks and updates, but mostly my view is its failings are due to being overburden and not inherent flaws in the methodology.

Though I certainly would not be opposed to trying something new. You can't improve unless you try something different, after all.
=Smidge=
 
2013-12-04 06:54:32 PM  
How do you even debate this?!  It's such a pants-on-head, super stupid bad idea, there's no proper response except...

i42.tinypic.com
 
Displayed 227 of 227 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
Advertisement
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report