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(CBC)   Canada is making a claim this week to an Arctic area 3x the size of Texas. WAKE UP YOU FOOLS THEY ARE MAKING THEIR MOVE   (cbc.ca) divider line 87
    More: Obvious, Arctic, Texas, square kilometres, Ellesmere Island, law of the sea, fools  
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6035 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Dec 2013 at 9:46 AM (33 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-02 11:02:28 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: SurfaceTension: [cponline.thecanadianpress.com image 850x682] [news.bbcimg.co.uk image 624x520]

What's the difference exactly?

Canada has done the footwork to make the claim in an international forum with all affected parties having the ability to challenge the new maritime borders.

China draw some new lines and then threatened to shoot down anything that entered the area.


Ok, I can see that.
 
2013-12-02 11:12:16 AM

jshine: trapped-in-CH: Years ago Russia used one of their submarines to drop a flag on the ocean bed at the North Pole. Think Santa was Canadian? Nope. Russian now

Meh, it's just publicity -- like the American flags on the moon.  It doesn't really mean anything, but it makes for some good chest-thumping.


Say that again when all you get for Christmas are Babushka scarves and matryoshka dolls.
 
2013-12-02 11:19:53 AM
Greenland is Danish?
 
2013-12-02 11:21:34 AM

Krieghund: jshine: trapped-in-CH: Years ago Russia used one of their submarines to drop a flag on the ocean bed at the North Pole. Think Santa was Canadian? Nope. Russian now

Meh, it's just publicity -- like the American flags on the moon.  It doesn't really mean anything, but it makes for some good chest-thumping.

Say that again when all you get for Christmas are Babushka scarves and matryoshka dolls.



Soon.  Yes, soon, you will not know the difference.

www.burnoutitaly.com
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-12-02 11:22:12 AM
Resistance is futile, eh? Just hand over the land and no one gets high sticked.
 
2013-12-02 11:24:32 AM
This pairs up nicely with the Canada/US merger thread.
 
2013-12-02 11:28:14 AM

jshine: Valiente: Who needs nukes or navies when you have the Big Red Button?

What do you think the Big Red Button is connected to?


StaplesTM?
 
2013-12-02 11:37:11 AM
NO ONE is going to interfere with our sovereign right to club seals!!!
 
2013-12-02 11:39:30 AM

jshine: Valiente: Who needs nukes or navies when you have the Big Red Button?

What do you think the Big Red Button is connected to?


A better sense of humour.
 
2013-12-02 12:04:22 PM

BitwiseShift: Greenland is Danish?


Yes. The US tried to buy it from Denmark after WWII, but they didn't want to sell.
 
2013-12-02 12:13:17 PM

Mr.Hawk: [i478.photobucket.com image 350x350]


Spelled it wrong subby


img.pandawhale.com
 
2013-12-02 12:28:16 PM

BitwiseShift: What's all that

our oil doing under my Canada's ice, eh?

/USA!  USA!
/jk
 
2013-12-02 12:35:03 PM

SilentStrider: They can have it.

And Texas too if they want it.


No, but thanks for offering.
 
2013-12-02 12:58:07 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: SurfaceTension: [cponline.thecanadianpress.com image 850x682] [news.bbcimg.co.uk image 624x520]

What's the difference exactly?

Canada has done the footwork to make the claim in an international forum with all affected parties having the ability to challenge the new maritime borders.

China draw some new lines and then threatened to shoot down anything that entered the area.


This.  Plus the China expansion includes shipping lanes and a massive oil field.  Canada's claim includes polar bears, penguins, and lots of snow.  If they're not careful though they could start a border war with Santa Claus.
 
2013-12-02 12:59:31 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-12-02 01:01:40 PM
upload.wikimedia.org

I don't get it.  They already owned all three attack vectors into Greenland and they can have access to Russia over Sara Palin's cold dead body.

No...seriously.  You take care of that for us, and the state's yours.   Really.
 
2013-12-02 01:04:41 PM

Nezorf: [images2.wikia.nocookie.net image 600x400]It's the only solution


In the 21st century, wars were still waged over the resources that could be acquired.  Only this time, the spoils of war were also its weapons: ice and sludge.
 
2013-12-02 01:07:16 PM

Jim_Callahan: Isn't making an ocean claim that far out from your own coastline somewhat problematic international-law-wise?

I mean, I don't think anyone's going to actively contest this, so there's an element of "who cares" there, but I'm a bit curious if theyre actually expecting this to hold up.


This is continental shelf. The rules of international law and agreements on Arctic Ocean territorial claims are pretty clear. What wasn't clear is where exactly the continental shelf ends. So Canadian scientists were sent to explore and map the shelf. There is a deadline that all countries making territorial claims have to meet. As the article states, some countries have filed their claims, some are stilling working on them.

Russia claims that the Lomonosov ridge (a submarine mountain chain) connects to Russian continental shelf and runs across the pole and have thus claimed an enormous chunk of the Arctic Ocean. They put a submarine flag on the geographic pole to support their claims. Trust but verify carefully is the law that applies to Russian claims.

If this proves to be so, there will a lot of territory in dispute. If they are wrong (or simply lying) about the connection then they are pushing bogus territorial claims to an enormous area with immense resources including fish, sea mammals, minerals, and transportation routes.

As you can see from the map, Canada has mapped a very large area of continental shelf contiguous with it's existing claims based on similar grounds.

The US could not claim this continental shelf as it doesn't touch US continental shelf off Alaska. Either Canada gets it or nobody does. With the Russians claiming a vast area of the Arctic, they might get that as well.

The US has no direct interest in the Canadian claim as the dispute between countries is about exclusive economic zones, which applies closer to shore than continental shelf limits.

It is probably for the best of all that Canadian's claim is granted because any resources not under the control of one country or another can lead to problems in the orphaned territory--freedom of the sea, environmental damage, etc.

As for what "holds up" this claim, it's mostly law. Canada is not powerful enough to keep the Russians and Chinese out or the Americans either. Canada's territory has been violated before simply because it is so remote and vast. There's really no practical way to watch every square kilometer of sea or land for submarines, aircraft, and surface ships, let alone dog teams and pedestrians (on skis or whatever).

But the US and Russia have the same problem. They can "invade" each other's Arctic territories with stealth or blatancy and claims that they're just doing legitimate mapping or scientific work. Just law keeps the superpowers in line and that is far from infallible but they do have to consider public opinion from the world at large.

China can't claim any territory in the Arctic so it may play a major role in keeping the seaways open and preventing the Arctic from becoming a closed sea, a sort of mare nostrum for the handful of countries that border it. The EU has a major interest but Iceland, Norway, Denmark (Greenland) and the UK have much smaller stakes than the US, Canada and in international waters.

In the end, Canada's territorial claims stand as long as the superpowers don't say, What the Hell, let's drink Canada dry! But that is true of every country in the world:  power is power, influence, influence, but law and logic don't count for much when interest prevails.
 
2013-12-02 01:09:21 PM

odinsposse: vudukungfu: 3x the size of Texas?
What is that in terms of Rhode Islands?

Imagine Rhode Island is a Twinkie. Now imagine that Twinkie is 35 feet long and over 600 pounds.


www.filmoria.co.uk
Impressed.
 
2013-12-02 01:10:14 PM

jshine: odinsposse: vudukungfu: 3x the size of Texas?
What is that in terms of Rhode Islands?

Imagine Rhode Island is a Twinkie. Now imagine that Twinkie is 35 feet long and over 600 pounds.

[fc06.deviantart.net image 574x412]


*shakes ecotplasmic fist of rage*
 
2013-12-02 01:12:56 PM

oldfarthenry: Nutsac_Jim: suck it.  start parking oil rigs 13 miles off shore.

Can't you yanks go one century without getting biatch-slapped out of Canuckistan due to some failed invasion plan? It gets boring.


Can't you Canadians go one thread without displaying massive insecurity?  It gets boring.
 
2013-12-02 01:15:10 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-12-02 01:15:51 PM
I told you were evil, but would you listen? NOoooOOOOooo
 
2013-12-02 01:39:16 PM
Meh, if we were making a move we'd have the Dakotas and probably Minnesota before you guys noticed. (not that anyone wants most of that.)
We're quiet, amiable and unassuming, it'd be the most polite invasion ever.
 
2013-12-02 01:41:33 PM
Land-grab by proxy?
 
2013-12-02 01:52:48 PM

brantgoose: Jim_Callahan: Isn't making an ocean claim that far out from your own coastline somewhat problematic international-law-wise?

I mean, I don't think anyone's going to actively contest this, so there's an element of "who cares" there, but I'm a bit curious if theyre actually expecting this to hold up.

This is continental shelf. The rules of international law and agreements on Arctic Ocean territorial claims are pretty clear. What wasn't clear is where exactly the continental shelf ends. So Canadian scientists were sent to explore and map the shelf. There is a deadline that all countries making territorial claims have to meet. As the article states, some countries have filed their claims, some are stilling working on them.

Russia claims that the Lomonosov ridge (a submarine mountain chain) connects to Russian continental shelf and runs across the pole and have thus claimed an enormous chunk of the Arctic Ocean. They put a submarine flag on the geographic pole to support their claims. Trust but verify carefully is the law that applies to Russian claims.

If this proves to be so, there will a lot of territory in dispute. If they are wrong (or simply lying) about the connection then they are pushing bogus territorial claims to an enormous area with immense resources including fish, sea mammals, minerals, and transportation routes.

As you can see from the map, Canada has mapped a very large area of continental shelf contiguous with it's existing claims based on similar grounds.

The US could not claim this continental shelf as it doesn't touch US continental shelf off Alaska. Either Canada gets it or nobody does. With the Russians claiming a vast area of the Arctic, they might get that as well.

The US has no direct interest in the Canadian claim as the dispute between countries is about exclusive economic zones, which applies closer to shore than continental shelf limits.

It is probably for the best of all that Canadian's claim is granted because any resources not under the control of one country or another can lead to problems in the orphaned territory--freedom of the sea, environmental damage, etc.

As for what "holds up" this claim, it's mostly law. Canada is not powerful enough to keep the Russians and Chinese out or the Americans either. Canada's territory has been violated before simply because it is so remote and vast. There's really no practical way to watch every square kilometer of sea or land for submarines, aircraft, and surface ships, let alone dog teams and pedestrians (on skis or whatever).

But the US and Russia have the same problem. They can "invade" each other's Arctic territories with stealth or blatancy and claims that they're just doing legitimate mapping or scientific work. Just law keeps the superpowers in line and that is far from infallible but they do have to consider public opinion from the world at large.

China can't claim any territory in the Arctic so it may play a major role in keeping the seaways open and preventing the Arctic from becoming a closed sea, a sort of mare nostrum for the handful of countries that border it. The EU has a major interest but Iceland, Norway, Denmark (Greenland) and the UK have much smaller stakes than the US, Canada and in international waters.

In the end, Canada's territorial claims stand as long as the superpowers don't say, What the Hell, let's drink Canada dry! But that is true of every country in the world:  power is power, influence, influence, but law and logic don't count for much when interest prevails.


Also, this is not a territorial claim in the sense of making it Canadian waters. It is purely economic.

The territorial claim is completely different is what the US disputes.
 
2013-12-02 01:53:08 PM

Five Tails of Fury: Meh, if we were making a move we'd have the Dakotas and probably Minnesota before you guys noticed. (not that anyone wants most of that.)
We're quiet, amiable and unassuming, it'd be the most polite invasion ever.


Shhhhh, we've had them for years now and no one has noticed. Don't wake the elephant.
 
2013-12-02 02:32:56 PM

Greylight: Five Tails of Fury: Meh, if we were making a move we'd have the Dakotas and probably Minnesota before you guys noticed. (not that anyone wants most of that.)
We're quiet, amiable and unassuming, it'd be the most polite invasion ever.

Shhhhh, we've had them for years now and no one has noticed. Don't wake the elephant.


We know. You're really not fooling anyone, you know. But you keep the place clean, and, quite frankly, it's too damn cold up there for us to get too worked up about it.
 
2013-12-02 02:55:07 PM

ciberido: Can't you Canadians go one thread without displaying massive insecurity?  It gets boring.


Either you've never actually clicked on a Canada/US thread in all your time here, or you haven't noticed that some people post the same crap (or in his case, image) in virtually every thread on a given subject for years.

I'm not sure which, but don't blame us for that.

AngryDragon: Canada's claim includes polar bears, penguins, and lots of snow.


www.toomanymornings.com
 
2013-12-02 03:09:33 PM
Drawing one warm line through a land so wide and savage...
 
2013-12-02 07:33:29 PM

Snarfangel: An Arctic area three times the size of Texas...

So, Alaska?


If Texas doesn't stop biatching about being the second-largest state then Alaska will split in two and make Texas the third-largest state.
 
2013-12-02 08:45:05 PM

Nezorf: [images2.wikia.nocookie.net image 600x400]It's the only solution


That worked so well last time...

Translation: Canada kicked your ass in 1812, America! And that is why you will now forever be known as Canada's Pants.
 
Juc
2013-12-02 10:04:10 PM

FrancoFile: Fortunately, the US has a Strategic Maple Syrup Reserve in case we have to impose an embargo.  The Department of Defense can disperse the reserve to the IHOPs and Waffle Houses with a simple order from the President.

Don't forget all the potential hostages that we have here, as well.  Comedians, newscasters, singers, and thousands upon thousands of minor league hockey players.


Oh lord, you joke but canada actually does have a strategic maple syrup reserve :/
 
2013-12-02 10:36:41 PM

Juc: Oh lord, you joke but canada actually does have a strategic maple syrup reserve :/


I thought that was actually a Quebec provincial thing. You know, since maple syrup is their primary resource alongside municipal corruption.
 
2013-12-03 12:02:19 AM

SpectreJCB: Jim_Callahan: Isn't making an ocean claim that far out from your own coastline somewhat problematic international-law-wise?

I mean, I don't think anyone's going to actively contest this, so there's an element of "who cares" there, but I'm a bit curious if theyre actually expecting this to hold up.

It's actually some crazy thing from the UN that allow you to claim ocean space based on where the continental shelf ends, versus the coastline.

They've spent 5 years on the geological study to make the claim, and it'll probably take twice as long for the UN to analyze and approve that, provided there are no counter-claims from Russia or the US.

Really, we're claiming a bunch of ice and water in one of the more inhospitable places on the planet.  Look out seals and polar bars.. the canucks are coming!!


You mean gas reserves and fishing rights.
 
2013-12-03 12:06:36 AM

SurfaceTension: [cponline.thecanadianpress.com image 850x682] [news.bbcimg.co.uk image 624x520]

What's the difference exactly?


Greenlands and Taiwan should both be pissed?
 
2013-12-03 12:08:17 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: SurfaceTension: [cponline.thecanadianpress.com image 850x682] [news.bbcimg.co.uk image 624x520]

What's the difference exactly?

Canada has done the footwork to make the claim in an international forum with all affected parties having the ability to challenge the new maritime borders.

China draw some new lines and then threatened to shoot down anything that entered the area.


Yeah that really is the difference - China isn't really all that big on interacting with the rest of the world in a fair manner, Canadians are pretty much always polite.
 
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