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(Talking Points Memo)   Pope Francis is irritating hardline Catholics after his decision to ramp up the Vatican's charity office and orders bishops and priests to spend more time with the poor and sick because, y'know, it's kind of what Jesus did back in the day   (talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 121
    More: Hero, Pope Francis, Catholics, Vatican, Holy Father, Vatican Almoner, police diver, bishops  
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4881 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Nov 2013 at 9:44 AM (20 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-29 07:59:33 AM
I'm sorry but you're referring to the actual biblical Jesus. Republican All-American White Jesus spends all his time obsessing over abortion and the gay agenda.
 
2013-11-29 08:04:50 AM
That Commie bastard!
 
2013-11-29 08:36:38 AM
This pope is going to be quite a problem for the US evangelical republicans.
 
2013-11-29 08:43:45 AM

Weaver95: This pope is going to be quite a problem for the US evangelical republicans.


In particular, Rick Dantorum, Paul Ryan, et al.
 
2013-11-29 08:55:29 AM

propasaurus: Weaver95: This pope is going to be quite a problem for the US evangelical republicans.

In particular, Rick Dantorum, Paul Ryan, et al.


There is literally NOTHING that republican Catholics can do to shut the pope up. They either change their fiscal policy positions, convert to another faith, or get called out for being hypocritical jerk bags by the leader of their faith. All of which are losing plays for a 'good Christian' politician.
 
2013-11-29 09:07:46 AM

Weaver95: This pope is going to be quite a problem for the US evangelical republicans.


Evangelicals don't get much shiat for not listening to the Pope.  I imagine they'll largely ignore him unless pressed, and then have only vague and superficially pleasant things to say (if they're running for office).
 
2013-11-29 09:26:51 AM

Relatively Obscure: Weaver95: This pope is going to be quite a problem for the US evangelical republicans.

Evangelicals don't get much shiat for not listening to the Pope.  I imagine they'll largely ignore him unless pressed, and then have only vague and superficially pleasant things to say (if they're running for office).


The Evangelicals don't give a whit about the Pope--Protestants sort of liked a Pope that didn't call their bullsh*t onto the carpet, but he's not the head of their churches, so he doesn't really matter. The problem lies in Catholics who ally with the Evangelicals, who are going to be increasingly under scrutiny.

It's nice to have a Pope who is calling Catholics to do more, to be more active, to actually live their faith, and that some folks have a problem with those teachings says a fair amount about them. Prosperity Gospel folks aren't Catholics, but a fair amount of Catholics have done well by working with them, and a Pope that is calling into question those folks, and with greed across the globe for that matter, is a nice change. You judge a man by the quality of his enemies, and at this point, the Pope is pissing off all the right people. Good on him.
 
2013-11-29 09:33:42 AM
A lot of evangelicals think the Pope is a heretic at best and the anti-Christ at worst. Catholics in the US are historically Democrats, though not as strongly as they were in the years following JFK's election as President. But evangelicals don't give a flying f*ck about this or any other Pope.
 
2013-11-29 09:42:17 AM
Sarah Palin has already denounced this Pope as 'liberal.'
 
2013-11-29 09:50:48 AM
Pope Francis has asked Tom Lehrer to preform "The Vatican Rag" live in Vatican City.
 
2013-11-29 09:51:48 AM
so there's a difference then between hardline catholics and hardcore christians?

Jesus hates religion, I'm sure.

if he wasn't dead, he would, I mean...
 
2013-11-29 09:54:05 AM

hubiestubert: The problem lies in Catholics who ally with the Evangelicals, who are going to be increasingly under scrutiny.


They'll find a way to make it work and it won't faze them in any meaningful sense.
 
2013-11-29 09:54:58 AM

propasaurus: Sarah Palin has already denounced this Pope as 'liberal.'


She also publicly APOLOGIZED for doing that.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/14/sarah-palin-pope-francis_n_ 42 77402.html
 
2013-11-29 09:55:35 AM

hubiestubert: It's nice to have a Pope who is calling Catholics to do more, to be more active, to actually live their faith, and that some folks have a problem with those teachings says a fair amount about them. Prosperity Gospel folks aren't Catholics, but a fair amount of Catholics have done well by working with them, and a Pope that is calling into question those folks, and with greed across the globe for that matter, is a nice change. You judge a man by the quality of his enemies, and at this point, the Pope is pissing off all the right people. Good on him.


Anyway, I don't disagree.  If we simply must have a world with things like Popes in it, I guess we could do (and have done) much worse.
 
2013-11-29 09:56:42 AM
Something something south park reference
 
2013-11-29 09:57:33 AM
I think that soon enough, someone's going to try to send Francis "home to Jesus".  Can't have a Pope being all Christlike and stuff!
 
2013-11-29 09:59:11 AM

SilentStars: propasaurus: Sarah Palin has already denounced this Pope as 'liberal.'

She also publicly APOLOGIZED for doing that.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/14/sarah-palin-pope-francis_n_ 42 77402.html


FYFL: "I apologize for not being clearer in my response, thus opening the door to critical media that does what it does best in ginning up controversy."

And such a heartfelt apology it was.
 
2013-11-29 10:02:11 AM

Xanadone: I think that soon enough, someone's going to try to send Francis "home to Jesus".  Can't have a Pope being all Christlike and stuff!


Well, if there's anything religious people know, it's that killing Christlike folks pretty much solves the problems they create forever.
 
2013-11-29 10:03:18 AM

Relatively Obscure: hubiestubert: It's nice to have a Pope who is calling Catholics to do more, to be more active, to actually live their faith, and that some folks have a problem with those teachings says a fair amount about them. Prosperity Gospel folks aren't Catholics, but a fair amount of Catholics have done well by working with them, and a Pope that is calling into question those folks, and with greed across the globe for that matter, is a nice change. You judge a man by the quality of his enemies, and at this point, the Pope is pissing off all the right people. Good on him.

Anyway, I don't disagree.  If we simply must have a world with things like Popes in it, I guess we could do (and have done) much worse.


I can only imagine the DERP that will asplode when Pope Francis and the Dalai Lama finally have a chance for a sit down...

Seriously. It would be great to see these two to meet and expand their discussions. While I am a Buddhist, I don't consider the Dalai Lama to be more than a great teacher, but in Buddhism, that is more than enough for respect. The world needs religious leaders who do more than condemn and point fingers. Asking folks to expand their hearts doesn't take an enormous amount of courage, but we need folks to do that more than ever.
 
2013-11-29 10:03:19 AM

Nabb1: A lot of evangelicals think the Pope is a heretic at best and the anti-Christ at worst. Catholics in the US are historically Democrats, though not as strongly as they were in the years following JFK's election as President. But evangelicals don't give a flying f*ck about this or any other Pope.


This.
 
2013-11-29 10:03:24 AM
Must be hard these days for right-wing evangelist of the prosperity theology to get slapped around like that. First the new pope is a bloody Marxist (confirmed by Rush Limbaugh himself!) and then there is this younger set of pastors making lots of noise about some churches being too close to the republican party and preaching about helping the poor and believing insane things like global warming!!
 
2013-11-29 10:04:05 AM
Weather or not the Protestant Evangelicals like this guy or even find Catholicism palatable, he is providing a highly visible and recognizable example of charity and good deeds, and that will reflect on their actions. That may upset them more, and that makes me happy.
 
2013-11-29 10:04:06 AM

Weaver95: propasaurus: Weaver95: This pope is going to be quite a problem for the US evangelical republicans.

In particular, Rick Dantorum, Paul Ryan, et al.

There is literally NOTHING that republican Catholics can do to shut the pope up. They either change their fiscal policy positions, convert to another faith, or get called out for being hypocritical jerk bags by the leader of their faith. All of which are losing plays for a 'good Christian' politician.


They can declare that they don't believe he is the real pope and that Benedict is still the rightful pope and they're going to only follow his words.

Yes that would cause a massive schism among American Catholics, but it would be all the excuse some of them needed to go hardline again.

That or they could try to have him killed, iirc there's solid historical precedent for that when dealing with popes.
 
2013-11-29 10:04:40 AM
Francis is using the most powerful commandment: love one another. It is this use that is ticking off the American catholics and simultaneously creating a febrile wave of once disenfranchised catholics to turn their heads toward the Church.

This will be the new field in America: American Catholics vs. Francisites or Francofiles or Frankists oh heck whatever they will be called...
 
2013-11-29 10:06:45 AM

6655321: Pope Francis has asked Tom Lehrer to preform "The Vatican Rag" live in Vatican City.


LOL....genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!
 
2013-11-29 10:06:54 AM

Relatively Obscure: hubiestubert: The problem lies in Catholics who ally with the Evangelicals, who are going to be increasingly under scrutiny.

They'll find a way to make it work and it won't faze them in any meaningful sense.


no, I don't think so.  not this time anyways.  See, the Catholics have been able to kind of look the other way while their evanglical allies screwed over the poor and made money...but now the Pope is calling them on the bullshiat.  now they have to make a choice - follow their Church or admit that they're just in it for the money and that Jesus dude can go f*ck himself.
 
2013-11-29 10:07:01 AM

timswar: Weaver95: propasaurus: Weaver95: This pope is going to be quite a problem for the US evangelical republicans.

In particular, Rick Dantorum, Paul Ryan, et al.

There is literally NOTHING that republican Catholics can do to shut the pope up. They either change their fiscal policy positions, convert to another faith, or get called out for being hypocritical jerk bags by the leader of their faith. All of which are losing plays for a 'good Christian' politician.

They can declare that they don't believe he is the real pope and that Benedict is still the rightful pope and they're going to only follow his words.

Yes that would cause a massive schism among American Catholics, but it would be all the excuse some of them needed to go hardline again.

That or they could try to have him killed, iirc there's solid historical precedent for that when dealing with popes.


Or they could just keep doing what they've always done regardless because the Pope's not going to stop them (or even know what they're doing, really) and someone else saying that the Pope doesn't like it certainly won't.
 
2013-11-29 10:07:29 AM
Francophiles. Early. Much wine last night.
 
2013-11-29 10:07:55 AM
I don't know much about Catholicism, but anybody who actually wants to help the helpless seems pretty OK in my book.
 
2013-11-29 10:09:39 AM

Weaver95: no, I don't think so. not this time anyways.


Fair enough, but I disagree.  Popes come and go and your average Catholic doesn't seem to change much in the face of that to me (granted, only speaking as a member of quite the Catholic extended family).  And politicians in the U.S. are more likely to have to talk about how they DON'T listen to the Pope than how much they do.


I guess we'll see (no pun intended?).
 
2013-11-29 10:10:06 AM

August11: Francis is using the most powerful commandment: love one another. It is this use that is ticking off the American catholics and simultaneously creating a febrile wave of once disenfranchised catholics to turn their heads toward the Church.

This will be the new field in America: American Catholics vs. Francisites or Francofiles or Frankists oh heck whatever they will be called...


I really hope Pope Francis keeps biatch slapping the prosperity gospel theology types.  that's a fight that has to happen and will be amazingly awesome to watch from the sidelines!
 
2013-11-29 10:10:58 AM

Relatively Obscure: timswar: Weaver95: propasaurus: Weaver95: This pope is going to be quite a problem for the US evangelical republicans.

In particular, Rick Dantorum, Paul Ryan, et al.

There is literally NOTHING that republican Catholics can do to shut the pope up. They either change their fiscal policy positions, convert to another faith, or get called out for being hypocritical jerk bags by the leader of their faith. All of which are losing plays for a 'good Christian' politician.

They can declare that they don't believe he is the real pope and that Benedict is still the rightful pope and they're going to only follow his words.

Yes that would cause a massive schism among American Catholics, but it would be all the excuse some of them needed to go hardline again.

That or they could try to have him killed, iirc there's solid historical precedent for that when dealing with popes.

Or they could just keep doing what they've always done regardless because the Pope's not going to stop them (or even know what they're doing, really) and someone else saying that the Pope doesn't like it certainly won't.


True, true, but we're talking about a group of people that A: really like a big splashy movement and B: really like being able to hold up the pope as "their guy" in debates.
 
2013-11-29 10:11:52 AM

Weaver95: They either change their fiscal policy positions


Want to re-read what the Pope and his crew are doing? He's saying "don't wait around for the government to come up with a new program, get off your dead asses and help out yourselves. And that starts with you goldbricking sanctimonious douchebags at the top of the pile."

Take this:

'Eminence, this isn't being an almoner. You might be able to sleep at night, but being an almoner has to cost you. Two euros is nothing for you. Take this poor person, bring him to your big apartment that has three bathrooms, let him take a shower -- and your bathroom will stink for three days -- and while he's showering make him a coffee and serve it to him, and maybe give him your sweater. This is being an almoner.'

Now change "Eminence" to "Senator" and you'll get the idea.
 
2013-11-29 10:13:10 AM

Weaver95: August11: Francis is using the most powerful commandment: love one another. It is this use that is ticking off the American catholics and simultaneously creating a febrile wave of once disenfranchised catholics to turn their heads toward the Church.

This will be the new field in America: American Catholics vs. Francisites or Francofiles or Frankists oh heck whatever they will be called...

I really hope Pope Francis keeps biatch slapping the prosperity gospel theology types.  that's a fight that has to happen and will be amazingly awesome to watch from the sidelines!


I could not agree more. I especially look forward to the textual wars over the gospels.
 
2013-11-29 10:14:22 AM

August11: Francis is using the most powerful commandment: love one another. It is this use that is ticking off the American catholics and simultaneously creating a febrile wave of once disenfranchised catholics to turn their heads toward the Church.

This will be the new field in America: American Catholics vs. Francisites or Francofiles or Frankists oh heck whatever they will be called...


All American Catholics are ticked off the new Pope? News to me.
 
2013-11-29 10:15:03 AM
Who the hell drinks coffee in the shower, anyway?

Actually, that might save me some time.
 
2013-11-29 10:16:02 AM

Relatively Obscure: Weaver95: no, I don't think so. not this time anyways.

Fair enough, but I disagree.  Popes come and go and your average Catholic doesn't seem to change much in the face of that to me (granted, only speaking as a member of quite the Catholic extended family).  And politicians in the U.S. are more likely to have to talk about how they DON'T listen to the Pope than how much they do.


I guess we'll see (no pun intended?).


oh no doubt that the evangelicals never liked the Catholic church.  that's always been pretty clear.  thing is tho....the religious right in this country doesn't want a slap fight with the Pope.  that organization has been around for over 2000 years.  they've survived wars, plagues, crusades, spy games...there is literally nothing the Church hasn't been through before in the past.  they've got money, power, untouchable diplomatic connections in places the evangelicals can only DREAM of having...not to mention that when it comes to dirty politics the Church plays for keeps.  Even weakened by scandal the Catholic Church is a formidable opponent, with more than sufficient resources to severely damage the US evangelicals should it come to that sort of thing.
 
2013-11-29 10:16:11 AM
Just wait until the Pope realizes that Christmas has no biblical origin and it most likely happened during a warmer months. The shepherds were outside with the flock after all. And don't forget about the KillBotFactory!
 
2013-11-29 10:16:46 AM

Relatively Obscure: Who the hell drinks coffee in the shower, anyway?

Actually, that might save me some time.


I take my coffee mug in the shower with me. When you've got three small kids, you have to multitask in the mornings.
 
2013-11-29 10:17:12 AM

SilentStars: propasaurus: Sarah Palin has already denounced this Pope as 'liberal.'

She also publicly APOLOGIZED for doing that.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/14/sarah-palin-pope-francis_n_ 42 77402.html


That isn't an apology at all. Why must you lie? Isn't it a sin?
 
2013-11-29 10:18:02 AM

SilentStars: propasaurus: Sarah Palin has already denounced this Pope as 'liberal.'

She also publicly APOLOGIZED for doing that.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/14/sarah-palin-pope-francis_n_ 42 77402.html


No, she did what she always does: blame the media.
 
2013-11-29 10:18:25 AM

Nabb1: Relatively Obscure: Who the hell drinks coffee in the shower, anyway?

Actually, that might save me some time.

I take my coffee mug in the shower with me. When you've got three small kids, you have to multitask in the mornings.


Yeah, I spoke too soon.  I'm starting to see this Pope's true wisdom.
 
2013-11-29 10:18:38 AM

Weaver95: Relatively Obscure: Weaver95: no, I don't think so. not this time anyways.

Fair enough, but I disagree.  Popes come and go and your average Catholic doesn't seem to change much in the face of that to me (granted, only speaking as a member of quite the Catholic extended family).  And politicians in the U.S. are more likely to have to talk about how they DON'T listen to the Pope than how much they do.


I guess we'll see (no pun intended?).

oh no doubt that the evangelicals never liked the Catholic church.  that's always been pretty clear.  thing is tho....the religious right in this country doesn't want a slap fight with the Pope.  that organization has been around for over 2000 years.  they've survived wars, plagues, crusades, spy games...there is literally nothing the Church hasn't been through before in the past.  they've got money, power, untouchable diplomatic connections in places the evangelicals can only DREAM of having...not to mention that when it comes to dirty politics the Church plays for keeps.  Even weakened by scandal the Catholic Church is a formidable opponent, with more than sufficient resources to severely damage the US evangelicals should it come to that sort of thing.


Pope Francis is not trying to pick a fight with a segment of evangelicals. Do you view everything in the world in terms of your politics?
 
2013-11-29 10:20:39 AM

Nightjars: I don't know much about Catholicism, but anybody who actually wants to help the helpless seems pretty OK in my book.


Quick, call Captain Broodypants and his lobster logo.
 
2013-11-29 10:20:45 AM

Weaver95: Relatively Obscure: hubiestubert: The problem lies in Catholics who ally with the Evangelicals, who are going to be increasingly under scrutiny.

They'll find a way to make it work and it won't faze them in any meaningful sense.

no, I don't think so.  not this time anyways.  See, the Catholics have been able to kind of look the other way while their evanglical allies screwed over the poor and made money...but now the Pope is calling them on the bullshiat.  now they have to make a choice - follow their Church or admit that they're just in it for the money and that Jesus dude can go f*ck himself.


It will only have an effect when folks call their politicians who trade on their Catholicism for votes. When the public, and the media turn a spotlight on their voting record, and ask the hard questions of how they can justify putting their faith in the spotlight, and then vote against the teachings of said faith. It won't have any real effect until folks start holding their politicians up to scrutiny.

You will note how quiet folks like Rick Santorum have been lately. The folks who are commenting the most about Pope Francis, are either being quoted through an intermediary who is ginning up post counts for articles, or NOT Catholic. Rubio, Boehner, Ryan, they're not exactly pounding their chests about the Pope, and they won't, until someone specifically brings it up. The folks who are most incensed about the Pope, are folks who don't follow the Catholic Church, but have been relying on their tacit support.
 
2013-11-29 10:21:16 AM
Nabb1:
Pope Francis is not trying to pick a fight with a segment of evangelicals. Do you view everything in the world in terms of your politics?

Francis might not be picking a fight...but the Republican evangelicals sure are seeing his comments in those terms.  Limbaugh's epic meltdown over the Pope's comments was pretty interesting in and of itself.  the reaction from the property gospel preachers is a bit more slow in coming but seems along similar lines:  'how dare that Pope guy tell Christians to help the sick and poor!  who does he think he is anyways!?'
 
2013-11-29 10:22:26 AM

Weaver95: This pope is going to be quite a problem for the US evangelical republicans.


Meh.  They've always hated "the Throne of Rome" no matter who occupies it.
 
2013-11-29 10:23:44 AM

Weaver95: Nabb1:
Pope Francis is not trying to pick a fight with a segment of evangelicals. Do you view everything in the world in terms of your politics?

Francis might not be picking a fight...but the Republican evangelicals sure are seeing his comments in those terms.  Limbaugh's epic meltdown over the Pope's comments was pretty interesting in and of itself.  the reaction from the property gospel preachers is a bit more slow in coming but seems along similar lines:  'how dare that Pope guy tell Christians to help the sick and poor!  who does he think he is anyways!?'


I think you're a bit obsessed with Republicans and evangelicals. As a Catholic, what they think of Pope Francis is of no concern to me.
 
2013-11-29 10:25:01 AM
hubiestubert:
You will note how quiet folks like Rick Santorum have been lately. The folks who are commenting the most about Pope Francis, are either being quoted through an intermediary who is ginning up post counts for articles, or NOT Catholic. Rubio, Boehner, Ryan, they're not exactly pounding their chests about the Pope, and they won't, until someone specifically brings it up. The folks who are most incensed about the Pope, are folks who don't follow the Catholic Church, but have been relying on their tacit support.

That's what makes Pope Francis's comments so dangerous for the Republicans.  the Pope isn't a dummy.  He knows the web of power and lies that bind the US Republicans together.  I think he understands just how weak their ideology really is, and how flawed their theology has become.  with just one letter to the faithful, look at the uproar he's caused.  Palin freaked out, Limbaugh hit the gotdamn roof.  US evangelicals are already shifting into apocalyptic mode (which, I grant you, they do at the drop of a hat but still...), Catholic congressmen are running silent and scared....just one letter and look what happened.
 
2013-11-29 10:25:19 AM

Pants full of macaroni!!: Weaver95: This pope is going to be quite a problem for the US evangelical republicans.

Meh.  They've always hated "the Throne of Rome" no matter who occupies it.


I think he's having some sort of fantasy about a religious war that destroys the Republicans forever. As if evangelicals ever liked Catholics in the first place.
 
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