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(Opposing Views)   If teachers in Nashville ever want a raise, they better make friends with the principal. And feed kids the right answers. And make sure students do just as well next year as they did this year   (opposingviews.com) divider line 23
    More: Stupid, Nashville, student test, executive directors  
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2459 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Nov 2013 at 2:39 PM (41 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



23 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-11-28 02:43:42 PM
No Child Left Behind. This is the result of that abortion.
 
2013-11-28 02:43:49 PM
Can't we just allow the South to secede?
 
2013-11-28 02:47:11 PM
In theory, this sounds like a good idea.  In practice, it gives teachers zero incentive to teach the stupid kids/classes.
 
2013-11-28 02:57:25 PM
Oh yeah, I'm not seeing anyone wanting to get a certificate to teach with that incentive. Those school board clods must have been educated by the spoon full.
 
2013-11-28 02:58:21 PM

Katolu: No Child Left Behind. This is the result of that abortion.



We're done here.
 
2013-11-28 03:01:26 PM

Satanic_Hamster: In theory, this sounds like a good idea.  In practice, it gives teachers zero incentive to teach the stupid kids/classes.


Or to teach in the "wrong" schools.
 
2013-11-28 03:07:48 PM
So 48% of the teachers approve of this? How about we start by removing those teachers from their positions so they can't leak their stupidity to their students. There, problem solved. Money saved. Kids get smarter teachers. Everyone wins.

/has a 9 year old in the Nashville Metro school system.
 
2013-11-28 03:28:49 PM

JPSimonetti: So 48% of the teachers approve of this? How about we start by removing those teachers from their positions so they can't leak their stupidity to their students. There, problem solved. Money saved. Kids get smarter teachers. Everyone wins.

/has a 9 year old in the Nashville Metro school system.


Um, wouldn't that nearly double class sizes?

/has a 10 year old in private school and getting a kick out of these comments.
 
2013-11-28 03:45:22 PM
This stupid idea is gaining traction ... Utah is headed that way as well.

1. Nobody will want the dumb/lazy/apathetic kids.
2. The teachers that get stuck with those kids will quit.
3. The GOP will get their wet dream of saying public ed is a hopeless venture and vouchers for all.

What needs to be done is try holding the kids accountable, you know, like they used to back in the day. Hold the parents accountable who won't hold their kids accountable. But that is hard. It's easiest to destroy what's left of what used to be a noble profession.

Descent to the bottom, race you there!
 
2013-11-28 03:50:08 PM
Or these teachers teach at schools or have had the fortune so far of having classes whereby the parents take an interest in their children's education.,


No insult to teachers who try and do a very good job in often thankless and hard situations, but children who do well in school rarely do so because of the teachers.  Most children who do well do so because of parents who make sure they do well through backing the educaiton at home, extending them beyond what their classroom does and putting in extra work and yes even tutors when they see their child having problems.

It is unfortunate but due to excessive adminstrative work,  allowing students who are either academically not inclined or have special needs to be at standard schools teachers have had their ability to actually teach eroded.  Teachers  are now reduced to not much more than glorified baby sitters who only have the time to teach to the average student and then only be able to teach them the basics.    This is not the teachers fault this is societies fault.

Society needs to start to be honest.

Your child has special needs he/she will never grow up and get a full time job.  Sorry but having them in school will not achieve more after bout year 8 and that should be a special school.   They should not be in a standard school constantly taking away the teachers attention.

Your child has failed year 8 maths and English twice and we are afraid that you need to get them into an apprenticeship or help them with a franchise to clean houses.   They are not academically inclined to continue any further.


The truth is most children should not,  if we are to be honest,  pass year 12.

The fact that most do is evidence that we as a society are not being honest and we are simply being nice.

Imagine if the senior school classes only had students who wanted to learn and who had the adequate academic aptitude to learn.   Imagine then what a teacher could do as opposed to today where they spend most of their time disciplining students who do not want to be there and who quite frankly are not achieving anything except taking away learning opportunities from other students.


But to do that we would also as a society have to be honest about a few things.

1.  Being a receptionist does not require year 12.

2.  Working in a shop does not require year 12.

3.  Being a labourer does not require year 12.

4.,  Having a franchise and doing gardens or cleaning houses does not require year 12.

5.  Working in customer service does not require year 12.

6  Working in a factory does not require year 12.,


7  Working in childcare does not require year 12


8.  Doing basic bookkeeping does not require year 12.


9.   Being a basic office administrator does not require year 12.


They require about year 10 and some an extra short course such as childcare.
 
2013-11-28 04:17:01 PM
Linking merit pay to student performance has always been a bad, bad idea. Children are not mass produced widgets than can simply be re-engineered if they don't work right the first time.

There are simply too many things outside of a teachers control for this to be fair, no matter what the Robert Marzanos of the world may claim.

Administrators and school board members have been trying to apply business philosophies to education for years and it just does not work.
 
2013-11-28 04:18:23 PM
/In public education for over 10 years and really getting a kick out of this...
 
2013-11-28 04:21:09 PM

penguinfark: no matter what the Robert Marzanos of the world may claim.


That name gets my adrenaline pumping and makes me stabby.
 
2013-11-28 04:26:39 PM
Identify the intention of the education system, identify teachers who best fulfill the intention of the education system, identify indicators those teachers have sought or undertaken, provide raises based on those indicators, and dismantle our standardized assessment fetish. We have then given control of attainment back to the teachers, incentivized what we know makes for effective teachers, eliminated time and resource consuming materials, eliminated concerns over teaching to tests, avoided problems of inequity in students and schools and colleagues and administration, returned several weeks of time once given to pointless materials, reduced stress in students who are overtested, reduced stress in teachers who are judged on testing, and are now able to utilize expertise and money and time from explanations and examinations and training and such towards what we know to be effective. As well, I recommend giving incentives to specific teachers to work within schools which have indicators for low performance such as socioeconomic status of student population or high teacher turnover rates, which is little possible in systems which focus on student performance on standardized assessments due to valid criticisms of inequity. Further, include ways to be promoted within the system which is not simply removal from the classroom; as an educator, my options are administrative, whether school specific or district wide or otherwise governmental.

Know who disagrees with such a system? Teachers who do not want to better themselves, which are bad teachers, and makers of exams.
 
2013-11-28 04:30:37 PM
Guest:

Society needs to start to be honest.

The truth is most children should not,  if we are to be honest,  pass year 12.

The fact that most do is evidence that we as a society are not being honest and we are simply being nice.

Imagine if the senior school classes only had students who wanted to learn and who had the adequate academic aptitude to learn.


More or less, yes. But, heavens forbid, tracking.

Every student should face up to the same Grade 10 standards. Those who have been successful and wish to move into more stringent academic studies may do so after passing year-end tests. Years 11/12 should be flexible, where students have options:

1. Focus on voced/career training for those who either weren't successful through Grade 10, or who have a sincere desire to follow a career path. Already, many students have access to voced or tech centers. Expand them and instead of shuffling students back and forth between those places and their regular school, just keep them at that one location. Internships will be a mandatory part of this training. There they will continue to receive basic instruction in math (including financial lit), English and civics.

2. The kids who were not successful through Grade 10 but wish to receive more advanced academic instruction will remain at the school and put in extra hours on remediation to help keep them up to speed. This will require mandatory summer school. These kids can make the choice at any time whether they wish to continue this path, or switch over to the voced/career training.

3. Military school, for the delinquents who have no interest in any career other than causing trouble. Ideally, candidates for this option will begin at around Grade 8, if identified as troublemakers. Staffed in part with drill sergeants (with special training on dealing with kids). Military dress and haircuts, report at 5 am for physical exercise, some community service through part of the day and academic training as well. Internships with construction/plumbing companies when they are old enough, and if they are not old enough then specific training in those fields. Extra tutoring/homework time in the evening and allow them to go home at 7 pm, with a strict curfew set. These kids, if they show that they have an aptitude and desire to learn either academics or a trade, can be sent to the regular school for academic studies or the voced/career center.

4. The academic upper-crust, to remain at the regular school and really get a chance to learn without the surrounding riff-raff. Not only a chance to learn the book stuff, but explore and build and participate in field work.

5. Special ed: depends on what their deal is. Some can be mainstreamed in any one of the above options, others may need to be kept in a self-contained unit at the regular school, resources to be provided.

Money? The facilities already exist. Turn one high school into a voced/career center, another into a military school, etc. The staff? They largely exist too. It's possible to do something like this, but it takes school administrators and politicians with backbones.
 
2013-11-28 04:37:38 PM
Vangor: Identify the intention of the education system, identify teachers who best fulfill the intention of the education system, identify indicators those teachers have sought or undertaken, provide raises based on those indicators, and dismantle our standardized assessment fetish. We have then given control of attainment back to the teachers, incentivized what we know makes for effective teachers, eliminated time and resource consuming materials, eliminated concerns over teaching to tests, avoided problems of inequity in students and schools and colleagues and administration, returned several weeks of time once given to pointless materials, reduced stress in students who are overtested, reduced stress in teachers who are judged on testing, and are now able to utilize expertise and money and time from explanations and examinations and training and such towards what we know to be effective. As well, I recommend giving incentives to specific teachers to work within schools which have indicators for low performance such as socioeconomic status of student population or high teacher turnover rates, which is little possible in systems which focus on student performance on standardized assessments due to valid criticisms of inequity. Further, include ways to be promoted within the system which is not simply removal from the classroom; as an educator, my options are administrative, whether school specific or district wide or otherwise governmental.

We've been trying for 200 years to "Identify the intention of our education system".  Cannot be done, so as well-intentioned as you appear, the rest of your suggestion becomes impossible.
 
2013-11-28 04:43:38 PM

rkiller1: e've been trying for 200 years to "Identify the intention of our education system".  Cannot be done, so as well-intentioned as you appear, the rest of your suggestion becomes impossible.


No, this is possible; we simply set this. Our goal is to assure students possess this amount of numeracy, this amount of literacy, this basis of history, this basis of current affairs, this basis of biology, this basis of physics, this amount of scientific method, this amount of written communication skill, etc., then we identify who is able to do this. Our goal is to assure students possess this amount of critical thinking, this amount of problem analysis, this amount of evaluation, this amount of self-efficacy, etc., then we identify who is able to do this. The intention of our current education system is inscrutable because what we teach, how we assess this, and what our resources are towards are at odds. Less identify and more set, perhaps.
 
2013-11-28 05:21:12 PM
So, teachers bosses will evaluate them based on performance, pretty much like every other working person.  I don't see a problem.
 
2013-11-28 05:32:11 PM
Anyone preaching that the education system should be used to make kids ready to work in corporate America don't understand the point of education.
 
2013-11-28 07:13:56 PM

Empty H: Anyone preaching that the education system should be used to make kids ready to work in corporate America don't understand the point of education.


Education is to have kids listen and follow specific instructions so they can be good future workers, right?

/idea may have been good 100 years ago but no more
 
2013-11-28 07:21:28 PM

ggecko: So, teachers bosses will evaluate them based on performance, pretty much like every other working person.  I don't see a problem.


How many professionals do you deal with items that don't want to be sold and will work against it?
 
2013-11-28 08:58:04 PM
 
2013-11-29 11:07:27 AM
So, the concept is that the kid goes to school, he learns enough in K-12 to either stop there (failure, useless person because he will not put himself into crippling debt to go to college), or go to college (The American Dream! The world is your oyster!, there is nothing you cannot do!). Then, the kid who stopped schooling once he got out of high school and the college grad both go out into the working world. According to the Great American Myth, the college grad has the advantage and the extra education to get an amazing job, which will lead to an amazing spouse and an amazing house (I will remind anyone who thinks this is crazy that this EXACT belief has been fed to kids for over 100 years). The college kid is supposed to have a massive advantage over the plain ole high school grad. He is supposed to be the future, the crop of leaders that will take us into the 21st century and beyond.

So, why are both of them sitting in McDonalds with job applications?

/I understand that we are a blood sucking capitalistic society, but can we just stop trying to cloak this fact in delusion and fake positivity? Please?
 
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