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(NPR)   Recount requested after SeaTac, Washington voters approve minimum wage of $15 an hour. Well, that's what happens when you get vote counters who are only paid $8.25 an hour   (npr.org) divider line 141
    More: Followup, Seatac, Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, best value, Alaska Airlines  
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3708 clicks; posted to Politics » on 28 Nov 2013 at 2:54 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-28 05:44:04 PM  

BlastYoBoots: Pope "Goddamn" Francis


The respect for the new pope grows daily...

//seriously, if pope francis makes it even a couple of years without a "mysterious tragedy"  he'll have made more difference than the last 5 to 10 men in his position. That being said, challenging the money AND the moneymakers is a dangerous game in the catholic church. The mafia thing almost feels like childs play in comparison..
 
2013-11-28 05:51:07 PM  

Somaticasual: BlastYoBoots: Pope "Goddamn" Francis

The respect for the new pope grows daily...

//seriously, if pope francis makes it even a couple of years without a "mysterious tragedy"  he'll have made more difference than the last 5 to 10 men in his position. That being said, challenging the money AND the moneymakers is a dangerous game in the catholic church. The mafia thing almost feels like childs play in comparison..


Yeah. I couldn't finish reading that article about the pope's apostolic exhortation to my mother without her lamenting about a dozen different times that this pope was going to get offed any day now. It's like he's way too good to be true, and we're so used to not being able to have nice things like a decent pope that we expect him snatched away in the next moment.
 
2013-11-28 05:51:41 PM  

super_grass: $15 minimum wage? Good luck with that. $10 is okay, but I can see businesses moving out of the suburb at $15.

Guess we have to wait and see on this one.


The major employers of people at minimum wage in a city (service jobs) are businesses for which location is all important. Sure, some call centre can move to avoid minimum wages, but McDonald's or Walmart can't as a) there will be a major sales hit and b) there is probably already someone else there if it is feasible, they either survive or shut down. As for places like call centres, they are probably already out in those suburbs for cheaper office space.
 
2013-11-28 05:56:53 PM  

dywed88: super_grass: $15 minimum wage? Good luck with that. $10 is okay, but I can see businesses moving out of the suburb at $15.

Guess we have to wait and see on this one.

The major employers of people at minimum wage in a city (service jobs) are businesses for which location is all important. Sure, some call centre can move to avoid minimum wages, but McDonald's or Walmart can't as a) there will be a major sales hit and b) there is probably already someone else there if it is feasible, they either survive or shut down. As for places like call centres, they are probably already out in those suburbs for cheaper office space.


Most office workers probably make around or above $15 anyway. It's the low earning service or fast food jobs that are affected. The stores in the airport won'y move since they can just charge even more for a bottle of tea and people will have no other options. It's hard to say how low margin businesses outside the the airport will manage.
 
2013-11-28 05:59:20 PM  
The main opponent to thus is Alaska Airlines. After glancing at their financials, I think they can afford to pass on a few executive bonuses.

Then the Greckos will jump on it. Or not
 
2013-11-28 06:07:50 PM  
SeaTac just saw the cost of fast food go up a shiat ton along with other items.  Good luck to the "the corporations will eat the increased labor costs" people like 

super_grass: dinch: Maybe it's because I'm thinking of my first real job at minimum wage, which was at a Dairy Queen, but how the hell can a business like that support $15 an hour? You've got three kids working (all of which are most likely eating into your whipped cream profits via whippits) selling cheap crap, plus the rest of your overhead. I just don't get it

Seatac is a small suburb with a major airport. I'm guessing that the stores in the airport will just raise their prices and the ones outside will move a mile or two away from it.

What I don't get is that it's a damn suburb. The cost of living there can't be that high compared to downtown Seattle.


Because minimum wage increases by and large benefit middle-class teenagers more so than they do the working poor.
 
2013-11-28 06:09:28 PM  

shower_in_my_socks: A low minimum wage is just another example of corporate welfare. Companies benefit from not having to pay workers a livable wage, knowing that the government will pick up the difference via social programs. Being against socialism, but also against raising the minimum wage, is like being against abortion, but not wanting people to use birth control either.


Some people probably don't mind people living in mudhuts, they're just evil. Shrug.

---

Interestingly enough, those bastions of socialism in Scandinavia lets the unions decide the minimum wage.

Why that works is that everyone is covered by a union, yes, everyone. So, the unions have a common interest in just making things work.

Ie., last strike/lockout in Denmark was when the workers union refused a payrise and wanted longer vacation instead. All in all, it ended up with a compromise with competiness of the country (good for everyone) and some higher wages (OK for most everyone).
 
2013-11-28 06:11:47 PM  
rustypouch:

If a business can't cover its cost, the model isn't viable.

There's a lot of jobs in USA that just doesn't make sense.

Walmart greeters, grocery packers, valet parkers etc.

Those jobs will hopefully go if USA decides that people should earn a liveable wage, but the state must also pick up and support those people and help them get into productive jobs as/when they become available.
 
2013-11-28 06:13:08 PM  

BlastYoBoots: Mr. Eugenides: The market is what the market is.  You cannot legislate the market to behave the way you want any more than you can legislate the tide to come in at a different time.  It's childish magical thinking to believe otherwise.

This reminds me of a quote!

"While the earnings of a minority are growing exponentially, so too is the gap separating the majority from the prosperity enjoyed by those happy few. This imbalance is the result of ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control. A new tyranny is thus born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules. ... In this system, which tends to devour everything which stands in the way of increased profits, whatever is fragile, like the environment, is defenseless before the interests of a deified market, which become the only rule."

 - Pope "Goddamn" Francis


I was raised evangelical (Baptist) and consider myself an atheist, but I am warming up to this Pope the more I hear from him.  While I can not see myself converting, I have to give him credit for taking my view of the Church up a notch or two.  Certainly a more compassionate and reasonable man than his predecessor who looked and sounded like Darth Cheney's long lost brother.
 
2013-11-28 06:16:00 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.


If labor costs are half of expanses, and they double, that tells us nothing about how much profit is left, because you've told us nothing about what percentage of your revenue your expenses are.

And if labor costs are 40% of your revenue, and you aren't a high end consultancy, then you suck at business and deserve to close. I can't even conceive of a business that both employs minimum wage workers and has 40% of revenue tied up in labor cost.
 
2013-11-28 06:27:57 PM  
This will surely end well

Why stop at $15 an hour?  Why not $100 an hr? There's absolutely zero downside to forcing companies to overpay for labor.

/sarcasm
 
2013-11-28 06:32:44 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: But you cannot raise prices since this new wage is Sea-Tac only.  For any service or retail industry people can drive a couple of minutes and get the same product for less.


It's only for workers at the airport. I'm sure all the travelers going through Sea-Tac are going to leave the terminal, hop a cab to the Wendy's down the street, grab some food, then wait in the security line to get back to the terminal instead of just paying a buck more for their Baconator. Especially the big chunk of people traveling on business who are expensing out their meals anyway. I'm sure they are going to seek lower prices elsewhere.
 
2013-11-28 06:35:15 PM  

whidbey: OK I predict this thread I will once again have nothing to add.

 
2013-11-28 06:40:05 PM  
"The best way to sabotage chances for upward mobility of a youngster from a single-parent household, who resides in a violent slum and has attended poor-quality schools is to make it unprofitable for any employer to hire him. The way to accomplish that is to mandate an employer to pay such a person a wage that exceeds his skill level."              - Dr. Williams
 
2013-11-28 06:41:49 PM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: "The best way to sabotage chances for upward mobility of a youngster from a single-parent household, who resides in a violent slum and has attended poor-quality schools is to make it unprofitable for any employer to hire him. The way to accomplish that is to mandate an employer to pay such a person a wage that exceeds his skill level."              - Dr. Williams


THIS^^^^^^^^^^  Racist minimum wage is racist.
 
2013-11-28 07:05:32 PM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: "The best way to sabotage chances for upward mobility of a youngster from a single-parent household, who resides in a violent slum and has attended poor-quality schools is to make it unprofitable for any employer to hire him. The way to accomplish that is to mandate an employer to pay such a person a wage that exceeds his skill level."              - Dr. Williams


"Conservatives say if you don't give the rich more money, they will lose their incentive to invest. As for the poor, they tell us they've lost all incentive because we've given them too much money."
―  George Carlin
 
2013-11-28 07:08:55 PM  
Teresaol31: BlastYoBoots: Mr. Eugenides: The market is what the market is.  You cannot legislate the market to behave the way you want any more than you can legislate the tide to come in at a different time.  It's childish magical thinking to believe otherwise.

This reminds me of a quote!

"While the earnings of a minority are growing exponentially, so too is the gap separating the majority from the prosperity enjoyed by those happy few. This imbalance is the result of ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control. A new tyranny is thus born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules. ... In this system, which tends to devour everything which stands in the way of increased profits, whatever is fragile, like the environment, is defenseless before the interests of a deified market, which become the only rule."

 - Pope "Goddamn" Francis Rand Paul

I was raised evangelical (Baptist) and consider myself an atheist, but I am warming up to this Pope the more I hear from him.  While I can not see myself converting, I have to give him credit for taking my view of the Church up a notch or two.  Certainly a more compassionate and reasonable man than his predecessor who looked and sounded like Darth Cheney's long lost brother.
 
2013-11-28 07:40:07 PM  

Teresaol31: BlastYoBoots: Mr. Eugenides: The market is what the market is.  You cannot legislate the market to behave the way you want any more than you can legislate the tide to come in at a different time.  It's childish magical thinking to believe otherwise.

This reminds me of a quote!

"While the earnings of a minority are growing exponentially, so too is the gap separating the majority from the prosperity enjoyed by those happy few. This imbalance is the result of ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control. A new tyranny is thus born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules. ... In this system, which tends to devour everything which stands in the way of increased profits, whatever is fragile, like the environment, is defenseless before the interests of a deified market, which become the only rule."

 - Pope "Goddamn" Francis

I was raised evangelical (Baptist) and consider myself an atheist, but I am warming up to this Pope the more I hear from him.  While I can not see myself converting, I have to give him credit for taking my view of the Church up a notch or two.  Certainly a more compassionate and reasonable man than his predecessor who looked and sounded like Darth Cheney's long lost brother.


I am not going to go too far yet, there is a lot of opposition and he hasn't actually done naything. But I will say that he seems like a genuinely good guy and I am cautiously optimistic about what he can do for the Catholic Church and the world around it.
 
2013-11-28 07:41:34 PM  

Lusiphur: And if labor costs are 40% of your revenue, and you aren't a high end consultancy, then you suck at business and deserve to close. I can't even conceive of a business that both employs minimum wage workers and has 40% of revenue tied up in labor cost.


Um, textiles comes to mind. Also a number of other manufacturing businesses..
 
2013-11-28 07:42:34 PM  

BMulligan: and the family that owns the company lives quite well.


there's a lot of the problem. the chains aren't family owned and their shareholders demand that stock go up every quarter. and they pay the CEO huge bucks to make that happen. so how does raising the wage factor in there?
 
2013-11-28 07:50:30 PM  

betasp: Lusiphur: And if labor costs are 40% of your revenue, and you aren't a high end consultancy, then you suck at business and deserve to close. I can't even conceive of a business that both employs minimum wage workers and has 40% of revenue tied up in labor cost.

Um, textiles comes to mind. Also a number of other manufacturing businesses..


Yes, but they have since moved to Bangladesh, where labor laws don't apply.

PROBLEM SOLVED
 
2013-11-28 08:02:51 PM  
I have a small business and employ about 35 part timers - all college and high school students.  We pay about 15% above minimum wage because I don't want to compete with McD's for my labor pool.  We have no direct competition in the area (we are a particular kind of family amusement business), but there is plenty of indirect competition - everything from other venue based entertainment options - bowling, movies, etc. - to gaming systems, Netflix, etc, to just hanging out at someone's house.  Labor is my single largest expense, and eats approx 35% of revenue.  We are also significantly more labor intensive than my indirect competitors.  Our margins are OK (15%-20%) - not great, but so long as we have a sufficient level of revenue, I can make a decent living for me and my family.

In my state, there is talk of raising the minimum wage to about $13/hr, which would increase my labor costs 50%+.  Regardless of business acumen, there's simply no way to pass that additional cost on to my customers.  We have particular "sticky" price points - $19.99 (no really), and $199.99 (again, really).  No matter how we sell, bundle or package things, once the cost per person hits $20 (or the cost per party/group/event hits $200), we see a significant dropoff in sales.  In other words, people seem to be ok with spending less than $20/$200, but there's a widely-held understanding that $20+/$200+ is too much and there's a visceral aversion to spending that much or more on what we offer.

So if my labor costs increase 50%, my margins go negative unless I can somehow overcome this $20/$200 issue (and we've been doing this long enough to understand that there's no handy solution) or reduce my headcount/make my business less labor intensive.  Since every employee is integral to our customer service, reducing headcount is certain to decrease customer satisfaction, which, all things being equal, impacts sales.

Simply put, we are a business that cannot survive a large spike in the minimum wage.  We're not curing cancer, so the world won't suffer greatly if we shut our doors, but 35+ happy and reasonably well compensated employees will be out of work, my landlord will suffer from the loss of a long-standing tenant, my vendors will not have my business, and my personal spending will decline significantly.

I understand I am not the kind of business people decry when advocating for minimum wage increases, but I am out there and there are lots of others in similar positions.  It may be correct to say that the large companies can absorb the increased costs, and if that is true, we may find ourselves with nothing but large companies left - mom and pop's (at least ones like mine) simply cannot survive in a sudden $13+ minimum wage world.

I don't know what the answer is, but the issue is not as clear cut as some on this board make it out to be.
 
2013-11-28 08:04:21 PM  
Also, family owned businesses essentially engage in slavery. The labor laws do not favor family members working in a restaurant.
 
2013-11-28 08:11:11 PM  

rustypouch: Prophet of Loss: Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.

1. We are talking about minimum wage, so its service jobs.

2. You can raise prices. Your competition is in the same boat and under the same pressures as you.

If your business acumen is so weak you can't pay a living wage and stay in business then maybe you should do something else and leave running a successful business to 'the adults'.

Yep.

If a business can't cover its cost, the model isn't viable.


This is the equivalent of saying if we keep piling weights on you and you eventually collapse, your body isn't viable. Everything can be stressed to the point of failure.
 
2013-11-28 08:11:15 PM  

SCUBA_Archer: overpay for labor.


Do tell...
d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net
 
2013-11-28 08:24:20 PM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: Dr. Williams


He's got some great digestion and joint health tips, that Dr. Williams.

Good advice for the economy? Not so much.
 
2013-11-28 08:40:00 PM  

Brainsick: SCUBA_Archer: overpay for labor.

Do tell...
[d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net image 437x294]


What's that graph look like when you factor-in indirect compensation like employer-paid health care, matching contributions to 401(k)s, etc., plus additional government-imposed employer costs like higher Social Security contributions, Medicare taxes, unemployment insurance, and the like?
 
2013-11-28 08:40:13 PM  

Unemployedingreenland: I have a small business and employ about 35 part timers - all college and high school students.  We pay about 15% above minimum wage because I don't want to compete with McD's for my labor pool.  We have no direct competition in the area (we are a particular kind of family amusement business), but there is plenty of indirect competition - everything from other venue based entertainment options - bowling, movies, etc. - to gaming systems, Netflix, etc, to just hanging out at someone's house.  Labor is my single largest expense, and eats approx 35% of revenue.  We are also significantly more labor intensive than my indirect competitors.  Our margins are OK (15%-20%) - not great, but so long as we have a sufficient level of revenue, I can make a decent living for me and my family.

In my state, there is talk of raising the minimum wage to about $13/hr, which would increase my labor costs 50%+.  Regardless of business acumen, there's simply no way to pass that additional cost on to my customers.  We have particular "sticky" price points - $19.99 (no really), and $199.99 (again, really).  No matter how we sell, bundle or package things, once the cost per person hits $20 (or the cost per party/group/event hits $200), we see a significant dropoff in sales.  In other words, people seem to be ok with spending less than $20/$200, but there's a widely-held understanding that $20+/$200+ is too much and there's a visceral aversion to spending that much or more on what we offer.

So if my labor costs increase 50%, my margins go negative unless I can somehow overcome this $20/$200 issue (and we've been doing this long enough to understand that there's no handy solution) or reduce my headcount/make my business less labor intensive.  Since every employee is integral to our customer service, reducing headcount is certain to decrease customer satisfaction, which, all things being equal, impacts sales.

Simply put, we are a business that cannot survive a large spike in the minimum wage ...


Well, consider yourself lucky... I own a business that has no labor costs but my own time (Which I do not charge the company for...), have put thousands of hours into it for two years. Have spent time to list over 40,000 items (Collectable Sports Cards). It's free for anyone to list their items for absolutely free and in order to get people to just use the site not even currently charging ANYTHING to ANYONE, and still haven't made a damn sale. A miserable failure of a business that I do out of the goodness of my heart and also to fine-tune my skills as a developer/consultant.

TonsOfCards.com, check it out, nobody else does...
 
2013-11-28 08:51:41 PM  
But won't increasing the minimum wage mean that workers have more expendable income to spend at all those businesses that are against increasing the minimum wage?  Why do those businesses want their customers to stay poor?
 
2013-11-28 08:55:03 PM  

Unemployedingreenland: Simply put, we are a business that cannot survive a large spike in the minimum wage.  We're not curing cancer, so the world won't suffer greatly if we shut our doors, but 35+ happy and reasonably well compensated employees will be out of work, my landlord will suffer from the loss of a long-standing tenant, my vendors will not have my business, and my personal spending will decline significantly.


...I would venture to say that this "problem" is irrelevant.  If we continue the tack we're on, there will be more than 35 employees that are either not "happy and reasonably well compensated" or "out of work" due to existing laws. Many landlords already suffer from not having any tenants to meet their rent demands (and, like you, can't change their rents without eating a loss). Many vendors are being cut out of business' books to save money already.  And personal spending has been declining significantly among the bottom half of the economy because no one there has any money.

This solution is like trying to get a painful splinter out of a child's foot.  Yes, it will hurt a lot in the short-term, but doing it now is a lot better than letting that wound fester.
 
2013-11-28 08:59:07 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Mr. Eugenides: But you cannot raise prices since this new wage is Sea-Tac only.  For any service or retail industry people can drive a couple of minutes and get the same product for less.

It's only for workers at the airport. I'm sure all the travelers going through Sea-Tac are going to leave the terminal, hop a cab to the Wendy's down the street, grab some food, then wait in the security line to get back to the terminal instead of just paying a buck more for their Baconator. Especially the big chunk of people traveling on business who are expensing out their meals anyway. I'm sure they are going to seek lower prices elsewhere.


And the volume in airports is quite high. It is likely not even a quarter more per item.
 
2013-11-28 09:15:44 PM  
And then everything else goes up in price by 5 bucks.
 
2013-11-28 09:16:29 PM  

bigsteve3OOO: For the shortsighted:  This will hurt minorities.   That is why it exists.  Keep supporting racist policies democrat party.  You fools.


Really, you have brain damage. Your democrat-hate (which, by the way, appears to be founded on easily disprovable lies) is truly in need of medical attention.
 
2013-11-28 09:21:32 PM  

whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*


You mean when half the workforce gets laid off because they're only going to pay the same wages for half the company? Yeah.
 
2013-11-28 09:38:04 PM  

Unemployedingreenland: I have a small business and employ about 35 part timers - all college and high school students.  We pay about 15% above minimum wage because I don't want to compete with McD's for my labor pool.  We have no direct competition in the area (we are a particular kind of family amusement business), but there is plenty of indirect competition - everything from other venue based entertainment options - bowling, movies, etc. - to gaming systems, Netflix, etc, to just hanging out at someone's house.  Labor is my single largest expense, and eats approx 35% of revenue.  We are also significantly more labor intensive than my indirect competitors.  Our margins are OK (15%-20%) - not great, but so long as we have a sufficient level of revenue, I can make a decent living for me and my family.

In my state, there is talk of raising the minimum wage to about $13/hr, which would increase my labor costs 50%+.  Regardless of business acumen, there's simply no way to pass that additional cost on to my customers.  We have particular "sticky" price points - $19.99 (no really), and $199.99 (again, really).  No matter how we sell, bundle or package things, once the cost per person hits $20 (or the cost per party/group/event hits $200), we see a significant dropoff in sales.  In other words, people seem to be ok with spending less than $20/$200, but there's a widely-held understanding that $20+/$200+ is too much and there's a visceral aversion to spending that much or more on what we offer.

So if my labor costs increase 50%, my margins go negative unless I can somehow overcome this $20/$200 issue (and we've been doing this long enough to understand that there's no handy solution) or reduce my headcount/make my business less labor intensive.  Since every employee is integral to our customer service, reducing headcount is certain to decrease customer satisfaction, which, all things being equal, impacts sales.

Simply put, we are a business that cannot survive a large spike in the minimum wage ...


What about exploring a new customer base? Have you explored all options to market yourself to a new group, or more effectively to the same group? Advertising that you pay your workers well would attract people (like me) who are tired of supporting companies that don't.

What do they have in their Netflix and living rooms that you aren't offering? Anything you can add to your business?

/insert Cartman: "I'm just asking QUESTIONS!"
//really, just asking questions.  Not trying to say I know your company better than you.
 
2013-11-28 09:57:51 PM  

Unemployedingreenland: Our margins are OK (15%-20%) - not great, but so long as we have a sufficient level of revenue, I can make a decent living for me and my family.


And what about your employees?
You say happy and well compensated, but enough to call it a decent living? For them AND their families?

If you're anything like the standard business owner, you've probably got something cooked up like "Well, they're only high school and college students. They don't deserve more. I can't afford more."  I hear that kind of talk alot, and it always seems like while workers aren't owed decent wages, businesses are always owed cheap workers. I'm of the opinion that if your business doesn't provide a living for your employees, it shouldn't provide one for you either. No great loss to see a business relying solely on cheap work go under.

The flip side is such that just maybe, if the entire area/state/etc has an increased minimum wage, you'll actually be able to budge on your price points because of increased ability for consumers to spend. Someone else said it, too. All this belt-tightening has left no one below the top 10% with money left to spend, to be frivolous with, to consume, to drive the damn economy. Your price points won't budge because people won't spend more for your product. I say, especially now, that this isn't because people don't want your product/service, but that they can't justify the cost versus their cost of living.
 
2013-11-28 09:58:27 PM  

Bllasae: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

You mean when half the workforce gets laid off because they're only going to pay the same wages for half the company? Yeah.


What's a layoff? Never heard of them. They must not have ever happened in the past.

/If your business requires slaves to succeed, your business can fail.
 
2013-11-28 10:12:43 PM  

shower_in_my_socks: A low minimum wage is just another example of corporate welfare. Companies benefit from not having to pay workers a livable wage, knowing that the government will pick up the difference via social programs. Being against socialism, but also against raising the minimum wage, is like being against abortion, but not wanting people to use birth control either.


I'm not sure if the new wage is going to get persons off of social services, but if you are a professional wheeling people around the airport and dressed real tight, you deserve at least that much hourly.
 
2013-11-28 10:29:28 PM  

whidbey: dinch: whidbey: dinch: , but how the hell can a business like that support $15 an hour

Dairy Queen is a good example of a business where the cost of their product is well under a dollar per burger, and probably less for cases of fries, ice cream and other stuff.

They can afford a wage increase. They don't want to because they make more money without having to.

I get that, I really do. Thing is, $45 an hour plus insurance (not health, just the basic' if anybody accidentally mixes bleach and chlorine'), product, equipment, rent and then what you're losing to the kids that are being kids... I just don't see how that could be viable.

Well, you're welcome to break it down for me. And I seriously doubt that kids sneaking a burger or an ice cream cone is a major factor in business costs.

If Dairy Queen is making enough profit to stay well afloat, then they can afford a wage increase.

And it's been pointed out here, if you can't put that cost into your business plan, it's stupid to blame a wage increase on your inability to succeed in the market. And I know that's going to piss some armchair economists here off. Good.


Um, if you look it up the average Dairy Queen Franchise owner makes about $70k.  So let's double their labor cost... they'd have to increase the prices on the menu.  If they did nothing and just ate it the franchise owner would be making minimum wage.  And who in their right mind would want to put up with all the headaches of owning a business for minimum wage?  If you've never owned a business, you have no freaking idea what it's like to have to deal with all the red tape around running a legitimate business.  Add to that what a pain in the ass most people are to work with as employees and well... yeah, at a certain point the businesses would just shut down.
 
2013-11-28 10:37:05 PM  

whidbey: dinch: whidbey: dinch: , but how the hell can a business like that support $15 an hour

Dairy Queen is a good example of a business where the cost of their product is well under a dollar per burger, and probably less for cases of fries, ice cream and other stuff.

They can afford a wage increase. They don't want to because they make more money without having to.

I get that, I really do. Thing is, $45 an hour plus insurance (not health, just the basic' if anybody accidentally mixes bleach and chlorine'), product, equipment, rent and then what you're losing to the kids that are being kids... I just don't see how that could be viable.

Well, you're welcome to break it down for me. And I seriously doubt that kids sneaking a burger or an ice cream cone is a major factor in business costs.

If Dairy Queen is making enough profit to stay well afloat, then they can afford a wage increase.

And it's been pointed out here, if you can't put that cost into your business plan, it's stupid to blame a wage increase on your inability to succeed in the market. And I know that's going to piss some armchair economists here off. Good.


I am sure you have some stats to cite about the average DQ franchise revenue, margins, labor costs, etc.to support your position...
 
2013-11-28 10:42:00 PM  

Unemployedingreenland: Regardless of business acumen, there's simply no way to pass that additional cost on to my customers.  We have particular "sticky" price points - $19.99 (no really), and $199.99 (again, really).  No matter how we sell, bundle or package things, once the cost per person hits $20 (or the cost per party/group/event hits $200), we see a significant dropoff in sales.  In other words, people seem to be ok with spending less than $20/$200, but there's a widely-held understanding that $20+/$200+ is too much and there's a visceral aversion to spending that much or more on what we offer.

So if my labor costs increase 50%, my margins go negative unless I can somehow overcome this $20/$200 issue (and we've been doing this long enough to understand that there's no handy solution)


I hate to break it to you, but even without a minimum wage change, you'd better get that figured out, because inflation is going to peck away at your margins if you can't ever raise your prices.  Just in the past four years, all else being equal, inflation has cut your margins by 7% or so.  So if you can't get past that $20 sticking point, you probably don't have more than four more years left anyway.
 
2013-11-28 10:43:41 PM  

You're the jerk... jerk: whidbey: dinch: whidbey: dinch: , but how the hell can a business like that support $15 an hour

Dairy Queen is a good example of a business where the cost of their product is well under a dollar per burger, and probably less for cases of fries, ice cream and other stuff.

They can afford a wage increase. They don't want to because they make more money without having to.

I get that, I really do. Thing is, $45 an hour plus insurance (not health, just the basic' if anybody accidentally mixes bleach and chlorine'), product, equipment, rent and then what you're losing to the kids that are being kids... I just don't see how that could be viable.

Well, you're welcome to break it down for me. And I seriously doubt that kids sneaking a burger or an ice cream cone is a major factor in business costs.

If Dairy Queen is making enough profit to stay well afloat, then they can afford a wage increase.

And it's been pointed out here, if you can't put that cost into your business plan, it's stupid to blame a wage increase on your inability to succeed in the market. And I know that's going to piss some armchair economists here off. Good.

I am sure you have some stats to cite about the average DQ franchise revenue, margins, labor costs, etc.to support your position...


You should expect meta complaining about the tone of your voice and arguments as well as more passive aggression and baseless generalizations.
 
2013-11-28 10:46:42 PM  
So, my $6 sandwich currently being sold at Seatac for $17 is gonna cost me what now?
 
2013-11-28 10:57:18 PM  

BMulligan: There's a chain of burger joints here in Seattle which starts their employees at $10.25/hour, which is substantially less than $15 of course (although well above the minimum wage), but they also provide 100% employer paid health insurance, child care assistance of up to $8,000/year, and college tuition assistance of up to $5,500/year. They've been in business for over 50 years, and the family that owns the company lives quite well. It is possible to treat employees like human beings and still make a reasonable profit.


In other words, anti-living wage people:

Eat a bag of Dicks.
 
2013-11-28 11:17:46 PM  

Testiclaw: neilbradley: I remember being paid $3.25/hr for my first job in 1985. That rate today is around $7.80/hr. So they're getting more than double the rate of inflation.

Oooooooh, this one is good.


Yeah. I pulled my calculator before realizing what was going on.
 
2013-11-28 11:18:28 PM  

jicon: So, my $6 sandwich currently being sold at Seatac for $17 is gonna cost me what now?


It's OK, because those people who are unable to comprehend "no mustard, extra pickles" will be making more money than college graduates in most other parts of the country.  Feel good about doing your part, citizen!
 
2013-11-28 11:19:14 PM  
We're told the sky will fall whenever the minimum wage goes up. Then the wage goes up. And nothing happens. And then they recycle the same lame arguments a few years later.
 
2013-11-28 11:21:05 PM  

whidbey: BMulligan: There's a chain of burger joints here in Seattle which starts their employees at $10.25/hour, which is substantially less than $15 of course (although well above the minimum wage), but they also provide 100% employer paid health insurance, child care assistance of up to $8,000/year, and college tuition assistance of up to $5,500/year. They've been in business for over 50 years, and the family that owns the company lives quite well. It is possible to treat employees like human beings and still make a reasonable profit.

In other words, anti-living wage people:

Eat a bag of Dicks.


and like Batman, their true identity . . .
 
2013-11-28 11:24:22 PM  

Brainsick: SCUBA_Archer: overpay for labor.

Do tell...
[d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net image 437x294]


Not sure how they calculate productivity, but isn't the increase in available technology a factor?  We can build skyscrapers with 1/10th the labor that the Empire State Building required.  If business owners buy million dollar cranes to hoist 10 times the material that men could hoist previously, should they be responsible for increasing pay tenfold for the remaining workers in spite of their capital equipment outlay to keep that graph even?  It makes no sense.
 
2013-11-28 11:38:38 PM  

aneki: whidbey: dinch: whidbey: dinch: , but how the hell can a business like that support $15 an hour

Dairy Queen is a good example of a business where the cost of their product is well under a dollar per burger, and probably less for cases of fries, ice cream and other stuff.

They can afford a wage increase. They don't want to because they make more money without having to.

I get that, I really do. Thing is, $45 an hour plus insurance (not health, just the basic' if anybody accidentally mixes bleach and chlorine'), product, equipment, rent and then what you're losing to the kids that are being kids... I just don't see how that could be viable.

Well, you're welcome to break it down for me. And I seriously doubt that kids sneaking a burger or an ice cream cone is a major factor in business costs.

If Dairy Queen is making enough profit to stay well afloat, then they can afford a wage increase.

And it's been pointed out here, if you can't put that cost into your business plan, it's stupid to blame a wage increase on your inability to succeed in the market. And I know that's going to piss some armchair economists here off. Good.

Um, if you look it up the average Dairy Queen Franchise owner makes about $70k.  So let's double their labor cost... they'd have to increase the prices on the menu.  If they did nothing and just ate it the franchise owner would be making minimum wage.  And who in their right mind would want to put up with all the headaches of owning a business for minimum wage?  If you've never owned a business, you have no freaking idea what it's like to have to deal with all the red tape around running a legitimate business.  Add to that what a pain in the ass most people are to work with as employees and well... yeah, at a certain point the businesses would just shut down.


What about the increase in profits due to the fact that all the minimum wage workers who work near a Dairy Queen will spend more at Dairy Queen?
 
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