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(NPR)   Recount requested after SeaTac, Washington voters approve minimum wage of $15 an hour. Well, that's what happens when you get vote counters who are only paid $8.25 an hour   (npr.org) divider line 141
    More: Followup, Seatac, Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, best value, Alaska Airlines  
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3692 clicks; posted to Politics » on 28 Nov 2013 at 2:54 PM (32 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



141 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-11-28 09:27:03 AM
Whoever wrote that should be fired

Minimum wage was voted to $9.19 an hour while the city of SeaTac voted for $15 an hour for those who are employed by the airport
 
2013-11-28 02:56:13 PM
OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*
 
2013-11-28 03:02:10 PM
In before this is somehow a bad thing because reasons and furthermore.
 
2013-11-28 03:04:38 PM
blogs.ubc.ca
 
2013-11-28 03:05:26 PM

cman: Whoever wrote that should be fired

Minimum wage was voted to $9.19 an hour while the city of SeaTac voted for $15 an hour for those who are employed by the airport


It's a horrible, unworkable mess that probably won't stand up in court. If they had raised the city wide minimum to 15 that would be one thing, but that's not what this initiative says.
 
2013-11-28 03:17:49 PM
A low minimum wage is just another example of corporate welfare. Companies benefit from not having to pay workers a livable wage, knowing that the government will pick up the difference via social programs. Being against socialism, but also against raising the minimum wage, is like being against abortion, but not wanting people to use birth control either.
 
2013-11-28 03:31:25 PM

whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*


If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.
 
2013-11-28 03:31:31 PM

shower_in_my_socks: A low minimum wage is just another example of corporate welfare. Companies benefit from not having to pay workers a livable wage, knowing that the government will pick up the difference via social programs. Being against socialism, but also against raising the minimum wage, is like being against abortion, but not wanting people to use birth control either.


They are against that , too.
 
2013-11-28 03:31:35 PM
I remember being paid $3.25/hr for my first job in 1985. That rate today is around $7.80/hr. So they're getting more than double the rate of inflation.
 
2013-11-28 03:32:10 PM

shower_in_my_socks: A low minimum wage is just another example of corporate welfare. Companies benefit from not having to pay workers a livable wage, knowing that the government will pick up the difference via social programs. Being against socialism, but also against raising the minimum wage, is like being against abortion, but not wanting people to use birth control either.


So being Catholic?
 
2013-11-28 03:32:15 PM
Capitalism simply will not work unless there's a way to off-set labor costs for the sake of additional profit. Whether it's slavery in the 1800's, child laborers in the Industrial revolution, or outsourcing labor costs to foreign countries who don't have to play by our rules in the present day -- they'll find a way to worm their way around having to pay additional money for labor.

Either we pay for it through inflation, or some chinese workers in sweatshops overseas pay for it through horrible working conditions making a fraction of the money we would.
 
2013-11-28 03:32:44 PM

Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.


Think of all the new people with higher wages who can suddenly afford your product/ service.
 
2013-11-28 03:33:33 PM

neilbradley: I remember being paid $3.25/hr for my first job in 1985. That rate today is around $7.80/hr. So they're getting more than double the rate of inflation.


Oooooooh, this one is good.
 
2013-11-28 03:34:13 PM

vicioushobbit: Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.

Think of all the new people with higher wages who can suddenly afford your product/ service.


That would only make a difference if we were a demand-economy.

/trickles
 
2013-11-28 03:36:48 PM
Mr. Eugenides:
That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.

Good thing that isn't anything close to what is happening then.
 
2013-11-28 03:45:17 PM

jst3p: Mr. Eugenides:
That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.

Good thing that isn't anything close to what is happening then.


Yes, but if they were, it would be bad.

So this is bad, too.

Don't you see?
 
2013-11-28 03:48:20 PM
Nothing wrong with a recount when it is that close, subby.  If anything it should be mandatory at that point.
 
2013-11-28 03:49:59 PM

Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.


1. We are talking about minimum wage, so its service jobs.

2. You can raise prices. Your competition is in the same boat and under the same pressures as you.

If your business acumen is so weak you can't pay a living wage and stay in business then maybe you should do something else and leave running a successful business to 'the adults'.
 
2013-11-28 03:59:15 PM

Prophet of Loss: Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.

1. We are talking about minimum wage, so its service jobs.

2. You can raise prices. Your competition is in the same boat and under the same pressures as you.

If your business acumen is so weak you can't pay a living wage and stay in business then maybe you should do something else and leave running a successful business to 'the adults'.


No one has mentioned price or income elasticity of demand yet, so I'll just assume this will be another Ferengi vs. Commie argument.

*whistles*
*twiddles thumbs*
*feels superior*
 
2013-11-28 04:04:11 PM
I hope this doesn't cause shops and restaurants in airports to charge a lot more than those elsewhere.
 
2013-11-28 04:06:51 PM

Prophet of Loss: Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.

1. We are talking about minimum wage, so its service jobs.

2. You can raise prices. Your competition is in the same boat and under the same pressures as you.

If your business acumen is so weak you can't pay a living wage and stay in business then maybe you should do something else and leave running a successful business to 'the adults'.


Yep.

If a business can't cover its cost, the model isn't viable.
 
2013-11-28 04:10:51 PM
For the shortsighted:  This will hurt minorities.   That is why it exists.  Keep supporting racist policies democrat party.  You fools.
 
2013-11-28 04:15:53 PM

Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.


You're welcome to show evidence how raising the wage to $15 is going to hurt ANY of the huge corps that operate out of Sea-Tac. I'll wait.

So I'm assuming

Yes you are. You are assuming that huge corporations that hire people for shiat wages aren't doing well, and couldn't absorb a real cost of living adjustment.
 
2013-11-28 04:16:00 PM

bigsteve3OOO: That is why it exists.


The Employment Policies Institute (EPI) is one of several front groups created by Berman & Co., a Washington, DC public affairs firm owned by Rick Berman, who lobbies for the restaurant, hotel, alcoholic beverage and tobacco industries.

What a surprise EPI is against raising the minimum wage!
 
2013-11-28 04:17:25 PM

Prophet of Loss: Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.

1. We are talking about minimum wage, so its service jobs.


So it's service jobs, so what?  In most service professions the largest cost component is labor.

2. You can raise prices. Your competition is in the same boat and under the same pressures as you.

If your business acumen is so weak you can't pay a living wage and stay in business then maybe you should do something else and leave running a successful business to 'the adults'.



But you cannot raise prices since this new wage is Sea-Tac only.  For any service or retail industry people can drive a couple of minutes and get the same product for less.

The market is what the market is.  You cannot legislate the market to behave the way you want any more than you can legislate the tide to come in at a different time.  It's childish magical thinking to believe otherwise.
 
2013-11-28 04:17:55 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: bigsteve3OOO: That is why it exists.

The Employment Policies Institute (EPI) is one of several front groups created by Berman & Co., a Washington, DC public affairs firm owned by Rick Berman, who lobbies for the restaurant, hotel, alcoholic beverage and tobacco industries.

What a surprise EPI is against raising the minimum wage!


I'm shocked. Shocked that some obvious troll posted obvious shiat.
 
2013-11-28 04:20:30 PM

Mr. Eugenides: The market is what the market is.  You cannot legislate the market to behave the way you want any more than you can legislate the tide to come in at a different time.  It's childish magical thinking to believe otherwise.


So let's never try to improve labor conditions, it's "childish magical thinking."

Uh-huh.
 
2013-11-28 04:23:19 PM

Testiclaw: neilbradley: I remember being paid $3.25/hr for my first job in 1985. That rate today is around $7.80/hr. So they're getting more than double the rate of inflation.

Oooooooh, this one is good.


I was about to respond with "where did you live?" but I think yours was the proper response.
 
2013-11-28 04:26:04 PM

whidbey: Mr. Eugenides: The market is what the market is.  You cannot legislate the market to behave the way you want any more than you can legislate the tide to come in at a different time.  It's childish magical thinking to believe otherwise.

So let's never try to improve labor conditions, it's "childish magical thinking."

Uh-huh.


Know which logical fallacy you just engaged in?
 
2013-11-28 04:34:54 PM

Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: Mr. Eugenides: The market is what the market is.  You cannot legislate the market to behave the way you want any more than you can legislate the tide to come in at a different time.  It's childish magical thinking to believe otherwise.

So let's never try to improve labor conditions, it's "childish magical thinking."

Uh-huh.

Know which logical fallacy you just engaged in?


Do tell.

Labor conditions are certainly affected by market forces.

I know you surely meant to say something much more limited than you actually did, but that isn't whidbey's job to sort out.
 
2013-11-28 04:36:31 PM

Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: Mr. Eugenides: The market is what the market is.  You cannot legislate the market to behave the way you want any more than you can legislate the tide to come in at a different time.  It's childish magical thinking to believe otherwise.

So let's never try to improve labor conditions, it's "childish magical thinking."

Uh-huh.

Know which logical fallacy you just engaged in?


Reductio ad Absurdum? That's whidbey alright.
 
2013-11-28 04:45:55 PM

Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: Mr. Eugenides: The market is what the market is.  You cannot legislate the market to behave the way you want any more than you can legislate the tide to come in at a different time.  It's childish magical thinking to believe otherwise.

So let's never try to improve labor conditions, it's "childish magical thinking."

Uh-huh.

Know which logical fallacy you just engaged in?


Because appealing to some vague authority like Your Law of Economics isn't a fallacious argument.
 
2013-11-28 04:56:06 PM

neilbradley: I remember being paid $3.25/hr for my first job in 1985. That rate today is around $7.80/hr. So they're getting more than double the rate of inflation.


But gold in 1985 was less than $327/oz

Today it's $1240/oz.  Therefore your $3.25 1985 in gold should  $12.95 now,  so $15 is just 25% more than inflation
 
2013-11-28 04:57:55 PM

shower_in_my_socks: A low minimum wage is just another example of corporate welfare. Companies benefit from not having to pay workers a livable wage, knowing that the government will pick up the difference via social programs. Being against socialism, but also against raising the minimum wage, is like being against abortion, but not wanting people to use birth control either.


You type that like you don't think there are people with EXACTLY those to stances on the issue.  Have you been asleep for 20 years?
 
2013-11-28 04:59:04 PM
Maybe it's because I'm thinking of my first real job at minimum wage, which was at a Dairy Queen, but how the hell can a business like that support $15 an hour? You've got three kids working (all of which are most likely eating into your whipped cream profits via whippits) selling cheap crap, plus the rest of your overhead. I just don't get it
 
2013-11-28 05:00:14 PM

Teresaol31: shower_in_my_socks: A low minimum wage is just another example of corporate welfare. Companies benefit from not having to pay workers a livable wage, knowing that the government will pick up the difference via social programs. Being against socialism, but also against raising the minimum wage, is like being against abortion, but not wanting people to use birth control either.

You type that like you don't think there are people with EXACTLY those to TWO stances on the issue.  Have you been asleep for 20 years?


FTFM

gotta lay off the Turkey Day cheer a bit
 
2013-11-28 05:02:26 PM

dinch: , but how the hell can a business like that support $15 an hour


Dairy Queen is a good example of a business where the cost of their product is well under a dollar per burger, and probably less for cases of fries, ice cream and other stuff.

They can afford a wage increase. They don't want to because they make more money without having to.
 
2013-11-28 05:07:45 PM

whidbey: dinch: , but how the hell can a business like that support $15 an hour

Dairy Queen is a good example of a business where the cost of their product is well under a dollar per burger, and probably less for cases of fries, ice cream and other stuff.

They can afford a wage increase. They don't want to because they make more money without having to.


I get that, I really do. Thing is, $45 an hour plus insurance (not health, just the basic' if anybody accidentally mixes bleach and chlorine'), product, equipment, rent and then what you're losing to the kids that are being kids... I just don't see how that could be viable.
 
2013-11-28 05:09:52 PM
Keep in mind, I haven't even been to a Dairy Queen in maybe 20 years, so I am a bit ignorant on what they charge these days
 
2013-11-28 05:10:47 PM
$15 minimum wage? Good luck with that. $10 is okay, but I can see businesses moving out of the suburb at $15.

Guess we have to wait and see on this one.
 
2013-11-28 05:12:33 PM

dinch: whidbey: dinch: , but how the hell can a business like that support $15 an hour

Dairy Queen is a good example of a business where the cost of their product is well under a dollar per burger, and probably less for cases of fries, ice cream and other stuff.

They can afford a wage increase. They don't want to because they make more money without having to.

I get that, I really do. Thing is, $45 an hour plus insurance (not health, just the basic' if anybody accidentally mixes bleach and chlorine'), product, equipment, rent and then what you're losing to the kids that are being kids... I just don't see how that could be viable.


Well, you're welcome to break it down for me. And I seriously doubt that kids sneaking a burger or an ice cream cone is a major factor in business costs.

If Dairy Queen is making enough profit to stay well afloat, then they can afford a wage increase.

And it's been pointed out here, if you can't put that cost into your business plan, it's stupid to blame a wage increase on your inability to succeed in the market. And I know that's going to piss some armchair economists here off. Good.
 
2013-11-28 05:19:04 PM

super_grass: $15 minimum wage? Good luck with that. $10 is okay, but I can see businesses moving out of the suburb at $15.

Guess we have to wait and see on this one.


Those airports relocate in a heartbeat
 
2013-11-28 05:19:51 PM

dinch: Maybe it's because I'm thinking of my first real job at minimum wage, which was at a Dairy Queen, but how the hell can a business like that support $15 an hour? You've got three kids working (all of which are most likely eating into your whipped cream profits via whippits) selling cheap crap, plus the rest of your overhead. I just don't get it


Seatac is a small suburb with a major airport. I'm guessing that the stores in the airport will just raise their prices and the ones outside will move a mile or two away from it.

What I don't get is that it's a damn suburb. The cost of living there can't be that high compared to downtown Seattle.
 
2013-11-28 05:21:25 PM
There's a chain of burger joints here in Seattle which starts their employees at $10.25/hour, which is substantially less than $15 of course (although well above the minimum wage), but they also provide 100% employer paid health insurance, child care assistance of up to $8,000/year, and college tuition assistance of up to $5,500/year. They've been in business for over 50 years, and the family that owns the company lives quite well. It is possible to treat employees like human beings and still make a reasonable profit.
 
2013-11-28 05:26:44 PM

vicioushobbit: shower_in_my_socks: A low minimum wage is just another example of corporate welfare. Companies benefit from not having to pay workers a livable wage, knowing that the government will pick up the difference via social programs. Being against socialism, but also against raising the minimum wage, is like being against abortion, but not wanting people to use birth control either.

They are against that , too.


I was going to mention that is pretty much the Republican platform.
 
2013-11-28 05:33:04 PM

gwowen: I hope this doesn't cause shops and restaurants in airports to charge a lot more than those elsewhere.


That would be terrible! Why, if wages go up, a bottle of water might cost $4! And they might charge $25 just to throw a bag on the plane. That would be insane.
 
Juc
2013-11-28 05:33:29 PM

bigsteve3OOO: For the shortsighted:  This will hurt minorities.   That is why it exists.  Keep supporting racist policies democrat party.  You fools.


that's the stupidest article I've read all day.
 
2013-11-28 05:35:56 PM

bigsteve3OOO: For the shortsighted:  This will hurt minorities.   That is why it exists.  Keep supporting racist policies democrat party.  You fools.


Minorities did great when the GOP utopia of no minimum wage was the standard in the US... I mean, they did so well on those plantations that they never owed anything for rent, food, or whatever, and they were always on time with their bills.
 
2013-11-28 05:37:16 PM

Mr. Eugenides: The market is what the market is.  You cannot legislate the market to behave the way you want any more than you can legislate the tide to come in at a different time.  It's childish magical thinking to believe otherwise.


This reminds me of a quote!

"While the earnings of a minority are growing exponentially, so too is the gap separating the majority from the prosperity enjoyed by those happy few. This imbalance is the result of ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control. A new tyranny is thus born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules. ... In this system, which tends to devour everything which stands in the way of increased profits, whatever is fragile, like the environment, is defenseless before the interests of a deified market, which become the only rule."

 - Pope "Goddamn" Francis
 
2013-11-28 05:38:52 PM

shamanwest: vicioushobbit: shower_in_my_socks: A low minimum wage is just another example of corporate welfare. Companies benefit from not having to pay workers a livable wage, knowing that the government will pick up the difference via social programs. Being against socialism, but also against raising the minimum wage, is like being against abortion, but not wanting people to use birth control either.

They are against that , too.

I was going to mention that is pretty much the Republican platform.


[thatsthejoke.jpg]
 
2013-11-28 05:44:04 PM

BlastYoBoots: Pope "Goddamn" Francis


The respect for the new pope grows daily...

//seriously, if pope francis makes it even a couple of years without a "mysterious tragedy"  he'll have made more difference than the last 5 to 10 men in his position. That being said, challenging the money AND the moneymakers is a dangerous game in the catholic church. The mafia thing almost feels like childs play in comparison..
 
2013-11-28 05:51:07 PM

Somaticasual: BlastYoBoots: Pope "Goddamn" Francis

The respect for the new pope grows daily...

//seriously, if pope francis makes it even a couple of years without a "mysterious tragedy"  he'll have made more difference than the last 5 to 10 men in his position. That being said, challenging the money AND the moneymakers is a dangerous game in the catholic church. The mafia thing almost feels like childs play in comparison..


Yeah. I couldn't finish reading that article about the pope's apostolic exhortation to my mother without her lamenting about a dozen different times that this pope was going to get offed any day now. It's like he's way too good to be true, and we're so used to not being able to have nice things like a decent pope that we expect him snatched away in the next moment.
 
2013-11-28 05:51:41 PM

super_grass: $15 minimum wage? Good luck with that. $10 is okay, but I can see businesses moving out of the suburb at $15.

Guess we have to wait and see on this one.


The major employers of people at minimum wage in a city (service jobs) are businesses for which location is all important. Sure, some call centre can move to avoid minimum wages, but McDonald's or Walmart can't as a) there will be a major sales hit and b) there is probably already someone else there if it is feasible, they either survive or shut down. As for places like call centres, they are probably already out in those suburbs for cheaper office space.
 
2013-11-28 05:56:53 PM

dywed88: super_grass: $15 minimum wage? Good luck with that. $10 is okay, but I can see businesses moving out of the suburb at $15.

Guess we have to wait and see on this one.

The major employers of people at minimum wage in a city (service jobs) are businesses for which location is all important. Sure, some call centre can move to avoid minimum wages, but McDonald's or Walmart can't as a) there will be a major sales hit and b) there is probably already someone else there if it is feasible, they either survive or shut down. As for places like call centres, they are probably already out in those suburbs for cheaper office space.


Most office workers probably make around or above $15 anyway. It's the low earning service or fast food jobs that are affected. The stores in the airport won'y move since they can just charge even more for a bottle of tea and people will have no other options. It's hard to say how low margin businesses outside the the airport will manage.
 
2013-11-28 05:59:20 PM
The main opponent to thus is Alaska Airlines. After glancing at their financials, I think they can afford to pass on a few executive bonuses.

Then the Greckos will jump on it. Or not
 
2013-11-28 06:07:50 PM
SeaTac just saw the cost of fast food go up a shiat ton along with other items.  Good luck to the "the corporations will eat the increased labor costs" people like 

super_grass: dinch: Maybe it's because I'm thinking of my first real job at minimum wage, which was at a Dairy Queen, but how the hell can a business like that support $15 an hour? You've got three kids working (all of which are most likely eating into your whipped cream profits via whippits) selling cheap crap, plus the rest of your overhead. I just don't get it

Seatac is a small suburb with a major airport. I'm guessing that the stores in the airport will just raise their prices and the ones outside will move a mile or two away from it.

What I don't get is that it's a damn suburb. The cost of living there can't be that high compared to downtown Seattle.


Because minimum wage increases by and large benefit middle-class teenagers more so than they do the working poor.
 
2013-11-28 06:09:28 PM

shower_in_my_socks: A low minimum wage is just another example of corporate welfare. Companies benefit from not having to pay workers a livable wage, knowing that the government will pick up the difference via social programs. Being against socialism, but also against raising the minimum wage, is like being against abortion, but not wanting people to use birth control either.


Some people probably don't mind people living in mudhuts, they're just evil. Shrug.

---

Interestingly enough, those bastions of socialism in Scandinavia lets the unions decide the minimum wage.

Why that works is that everyone is covered by a union, yes, everyone. So, the unions have a common interest in just making things work.

Ie., last strike/lockout in Denmark was when the workers union refused a payrise and wanted longer vacation instead. All in all, it ended up with a compromise with competiness of the country (good for everyone) and some higher wages (OK for most everyone).
 
2013-11-28 06:11:47 PM
rustypouch:

If a business can't cover its cost, the model isn't viable.

There's a lot of jobs in USA that just doesn't make sense.

Walmart greeters, grocery packers, valet parkers etc.

Those jobs will hopefully go if USA decides that people should earn a liveable wage, but the state must also pick up and support those people and help them get into productive jobs as/when they become available.
 
2013-11-28 06:13:08 PM

BlastYoBoots: Mr. Eugenides: The market is what the market is.  You cannot legislate the market to behave the way you want any more than you can legislate the tide to come in at a different time.  It's childish magical thinking to believe otherwise.

This reminds me of a quote!

"While the earnings of a minority are growing exponentially, so too is the gap separating the majority from the prosperity enjoyed by those happy few. This imbalance is the result of ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control. A new tyranny is thus born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules. ... In this system, which tends to devour everything which stands in the way of increased profits, whatever is fragile, like the environment, is defenseless before the interests of a deified market, which become the only rule."

 - Pope "Goddamn" Francis


I was raised evangelical (Baptist) and consider myself an atheist, but I am warming up to this Pope the more I hear from him.  While I can not see myself converting, I have to give him credit for taking my view of the Church up a notch or two.  Certainly a more compassionate and reasonable man than his predecessor who looked and sounded like Darth Cheney's long lost brother.
 
2013-11-28 06:16:00 PM

Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.


If labor costs are half of expanses, and they double, that tells us nothing about how much profit is left, because you've told us nothing about what percentage of your revenue your expenses are.

And if labor costs are 40% of your revenue, and you aren't a high end consultancy, then you suck at business and deserve to close. I can't even conceive of a business that both employs minimum wage workers and has 40% of revenue tied up in labor cost.
 
2013-11-28 06:27:57 PM
This will surely end well

Why stop at $15 an hour?  Why not $100 an hr? There's absolutely zero downside to forcing companies to overpay for labor.

/sarcasm
 
2013-11-28 06:32:44 PM

Mr. Eugenides: But you cannot raise prices since this new wage is Sea-Tac only.  For any service or retail industry people can drive a couple of minutes and get the same product for less.


It's only for workers at the airport. I'm sure all the travelers going through Sea-Tac are going to leave the terminal, hop a cab to the Wendy's down the street, grab some food, then wait in the security line to get back to the terminal instead of just paying a buck more for their Baconator. Especially the big chunk of people traveling on business who are expensing out their meals anyway. I'm sure they are going to seek lower prices elsewhere.
 
2013-11-28 06:35:15 PM

whidbey: OK I predict this thread I will once again have nothing to add.

 
2013-11-28 06:40:05 PM
"The best way to sabotage chances for upward mobility of a youngster from a single-parent household, who resides in a violent slum and has attended poor-quality schools is to make it unprofitable for any employer to hire him. The way to accomplish that is to mandate an employer to pay such a person a wage that exceeds his skill level."              - Dr. Williams
 
2013-11-28 06:41:49 PM

Zeb Hesselgresser: "The best way to sabotage chances for upward mobility of a youngster from a single-parent household, who resides in a violent slum and has attended poor-quality schools is to make it unprofitable for any employer to hire him. The way to accomplish that is to mandate an employer to pay such a person a wage that exceeds his skill level."              - Dr. Williams


THIS^^^^^^^^^^  Racist minimum wage is racist.
 
2013-11-28 07:05:32 PM

Zeb Hesselgresser: "The best way to sabotage chances for upward mobility of a youngster from a single-parent household, who resides in a violent slum and has attended poor-quality schools is to make it unprofitable for any employer to hire him. The way to accomplish that is to mandate an employer to pay such a person a wage that exceeds his skill level."              - Dr. Williams


"Conservatives say if you don't give the rich more money, they will lose their incentive to invest. As for the poor, they tell us they've lost all incentive because we've given them too much money."
―  George Carlin
 
2013-11-28 07:08:55 PM
Teresaol31: BlastYoBoots: Mr. Eugenides: The market is what the market is.  You cannot legislate the market to behave the way you want any more than you can legislate the tide to come in at a different time.  It's childish magical thinking to believe otherwise.

This reminds me of a quote!

"While the earnings of a minority are growing exponentially, so too is the gap separating the majority from the prosperity enjoyed by those happy few. This imbalance is the result of ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control. A new tyranny is thus born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules. ... In this system, which tends to devour everything which stands in the way of increased profits, whatever is fragile, like the environment, is defenseless before the interests of a deified market, which become the only rule."

 - Pope "Goddamn" Francis Rand Paul

I was raised evangelical (Baptist) and consider myself an atheist, but I am warming up to this Pope the more I hear from him.  While I can not see myself converting, I have to give him credit for taking my view of the Church up a notch or two.  Certainly a more compassionate and reasonable man than his predecessor who looked and sounded like Darth Cheney's long lost brother.
 
2013-11-28 07:40:07 PM

Teresaol31: BlastYoBoots: Mr. Eugenides: The market is what the market is.  You cannot legislate the market to behave the way you want any more than you can legislate the tide to come in at a different time.  It's childish magical thinking to believe otherwise.

This reminds me of a quote!

"While the earnings of a minority are growing exponentially, so too is the gap separating the majority from the prosperity enjoyed by those happy few. This imbalance is the result of ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control. A new tyranny is thus born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules. ... In this system, which tends to devour everything which stands in the way of increased profits, whatever is fragile, like the environment, is defenseless before the interests of a deified market, which become the only rule."

 - Pope "Goddamn" Francis

I was raised evangelical (Baptist) and consider myself an atheist, but I am warming up to this Pope the more I hear from him.  While I can not see myself converting, I have to give him credit for taking my view of the Church up a notch or two.  Certainly a more compassionate and reasonable man than his predecessor who looked and sounded like Darth Cheney's long lost brother.


I am not going to go too far yet, there is a lot of opposition and he hasn't actually done naything. But I will say that he seems like a genuinely good guy and I am cautiously optimistic about what he can do for the Catholic Church and the world around it.
 
2013-11-28 07:41:34 PM

Lusiphur: And if labor costs are 40% of your revenue, and you aren't a high end consultancy, then you suck at business and deserve to close. I can't even conceive of a business that both employs minimum wage workers and has 40% of revenue tied up in labor cost.


Um, textiles comes to mind. Also a number of other manufacturing businesses..
 
2013-11-28 07:42:34 PM

BMulligan: and the family that owns the company lives quite well.


there's a lot of the problem. the chains aren't family owned and their shareholders demand that stock go up every quarter. and they pay the CEO huge bucks to make that happen. so how does raising the wage factor in there?
 
2013-11-28 07:50:30 PM

betasp: Lusiphur: And if labor costs are 40% of your revenue, and you aren't a high end consultancy, then you suck at business and deserve to close. I can't even conceive of a business that both employs minimum wage workers and has 40% of revenue tied up in labor cost.

Um, textiles comes to mind. Also a number of other manufacturing businesses..


Yes, but they have since moved to Bangladesh, where labor laws don't apply.

PROBLEM SOLVED
 
2013-11-28 08:02:51 PM
I have a small business and employ about 35 part timers - all college and high school students.  We pay about 15% above minimum wage because I don't want to compete with McD's for my labor pool.  We have no direct competition in the area (we are a particular kind of family amusement business), but there is plenty of indirect competition - everything from other venue based entertainment options - bowling, movies, etc. - to gaming systems, Netflix, etc, to just hanging out at someone's house.  Labor is my single largest expense, and eats approx 35% of revenue.  We are also significantly more labor intensive than my indirect competitors.  Our margins are OK (15%-20%) - not great, but so long as we have a sufficient level of revenue, I can make a decent living for me and my family.

In my state, there is talk of raising the minimum wage to about $13/hr, which would increase my labor costs 50%+.  Regardless of business acumen, there's simply no way to pass that additional cost on to my customers.  We have particular "sticky" price points - $19.99 (no really), and $199.99 (again, really).  No matter how we sell, bundle or package things, once the cost per person hits $20 (or the cost per party/group/event hits $200), we see a significant dropoff in sales.  In other words, people seem to be ok with spending less than $20/$200, but there's a widely-held understanding that $20+/$200+ is too much and there's a visceral aversion to spending that much or more on what we offer.

So if my labor costs increase 50%, my margins go negative unless I can somehow overcome this $20/$200 issue (and we've been doing this long enough to understand that there's no handy solution) or reduce my headcount/make my business less labor intensive.  Since every employee is integral to our customer service, reducing headcount is certain to decrease customer satisfaction, which, all things being equal, impacts sales.

Simply put, we are a business that cannot survive a large spike in the minimum wage.  We're not curing cancer, so the world won't suffer greatly if we shut our doors, but 35+ happy and reasonably well compensated employees will be out of work, my landlord will suffer from the loss of a long-standing tenant, my vendors will not have my business, and my personal spending will decline significantly.

I understand I am not the kind of business people decry when advocating for minimum wage increases, but I am out there and there are lots of others in similar positions.  It may be correct to say that the large companies can absorb the increased costs, and if that is true, we may find ourselves with nothing but large companies left - mom and pop's (at least ones like mine) simply cannot survive in a sudden $13+ minimum wage world.

I don't know what the answer is, but the issue is not as clear cut as some on this board make it out to be.
 
2013-11-28 08:04:21 PM
Also, family owned businesses essentially engage in slavery. The labor laws do not favor family members working in a restaurant.
 
2013-11-28 08:11:11 PM

rustypouch: Prophet of Loss: Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.

1. We are talking about minimum wage, so its service jobs.

2. You can raise prices. Your competition is in the same boat and under the same pressures as you.

If your business acumen is so weak you can't pay a living wage and stay in business then maybe you should do something else and leave running a successful business to 'the adults'.

Yep.

If a business can't cover its cost, the model isn't viable.


This is the equivalent of saying if we keep piling weights on you and you eventually collapse, your body isn't viable. Everything can be stressed to the point of failure.
 
2013-11-28 08:11:15 PM

SCUBA_Archer: overpay for labor.


Do tell...
d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net
 
2013-11-28 08:24:20 PM

Zeb Hesselgresser: Dr. Williams


He's got some great digestion and joint health tips, that Dr. Williams.

Good advice for the economy? Not so much.
 
2013-11-28 08:40:00 PM

Brainsick: SCUBA_Archer: overpay for labor.

Do tell...
[d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net image 437x294]


What's that graph look like when you factor-in indirect compensation like employer-paid health care, matching contributions to 401(k)s, etc., plus additional government-imposed employer costs like higher Social Security contributions, Medicare taxes, unemployment insurance, and the like?
 
2013-11-28 08:40:13 PM

Unemployedingreenland: I have a small business and employ about 35 part timers - all college and high school students.  We pay about 15% above minimum wage because I don't want to compete with McD's for my labor pool.  We have no direct competition in the area (we are a particular kind of family amusement business), but there is plenty of indirect competition - everything from other venue based entertainment options - bowling, movies, etc. - to gaming systems, Netflix, etc, to just hanging out at someone's house.  Labor is my single largest expense, and eats approx 35% of revenue.  We are also significantly more labor intensive than my indirect competitors.  Our margins are OK (15%-20%) - not great, but so long as we have a sufficient level of revenue, I can make a decent living for me and my family.

In my state, there is talk of raising the minimum wage to about $13/hr, which would increase my labor costs 50%+.  Regardless of business acumen, there's simply no way to pass that additional cost on to my customers.  We have particular "sticky" price points - $19.99 (no really), and $199.99 (again, really).  No matter how we sell, bundle or package things, once the cost per person hits $20 (or the cost per party/group/event hits $200), we see a significant dropoff in sales.  In other words, people seem to be ok with spending less than $20/$200, but there's a widely-held understanding that $20+/$200+ is too much and there's a visceral aversion to spending that much or more on what we offer.

So if my labor costs increase 50%, my margins go negative unless I can somehow overcome this $20/$200 issue (and we've been doing this long enough to understand that there's no handy solution) or reduce my headcount/make my business less labor intensive.  Since every employee is integral to our customer service, reducing headcount is certain to decrease customer satisfaction, which, all things being equal, impacts sales.

Simply put, we are a business that cannot survive a large spike in the minimum wage ...


Well, consider yourself lucky... I own a business that has no labor costs but my own time (Which I do not charge the company for...), have put thousands of hours into it for two years. Have spent time to list over 40,000 items (Collectable Sports Cards). It's free for anyone to list their items for absolutely free and in order to get people to just use the site not even currently charging ANYTHING to ANYONE, and still haven't made a damn sale. A miserable failure of a business that I do out of the goodness of my heart and also to fine-tune my skills as a developer/consultant.

TonsOfCards.com, check it out, nobody else does...
 
2013-11-28 08:51:41 PM
But won't increasing the minimum wage mean that workers have more expendable income to spend at all those businesses that are against increasing the minimum wage?  Why do those businesses want their customers to stay poor?
 
2013-11-28 08:55:03 PM

Unemployedingreenland: Simply put, we are a business that cannot survive a large spike in the minimum wage.  We're not curing cancer, so the world won't suffer greatly if we shut our doors, but 35+ happy and reasonably well compensated employees will be out of work, my landlord will suffer from the loss of a long-standing tenant, my vendors will not have my business, and my personal spending will decline significantly.


...I would venture to say that this "problem" is irrelevant.  If we continue the tack we're on, there will be more than 35 employees that are either not "happy and reasonably well compensated" or "out of work" due to existing laws. Many landlords already suffer from not having any tenants to meet their rent demands (and, like you, can't change their rents without eating a loss). Many vendors are being cut out of business' books to save money already.  And personal spending has been declining significantly among the bottom half of the economy because no one there has any money.

This solution is like trying to get a painful splinter out of a child's foot.  Yes, it will hurt a lot in the short-term, but doing it now is a lot better than letting that wound fester.
 
2013-11-28 08:59:07 PM

Mad_Radhu: Mr. Eugenides: But you cannot raise prices since this new wage is Sea-Tac only.  For any service or retail industry people can drive a couple of minutes and get the same product for less.

It's only for workers at the airport. I'm sure all the travelers going through Sea-Tac are going to leave the terminal, hop a cab to the Wendy's down the street, grab some food, then wait in the security line to get back to the terminal instead of just paying a buck more for their Baconator. Especially the big chunk of people traveling on business who are expensing out their meals anyway. I'm sure they are going to seek lower prices elsewhere.


And the volume in airports is quite high. It is likely not even a quarter more per item.
 
2013-11-28 09:15:44 PM
And then everything else goes up in price by 5 bucks.
 
2013-11-28 09:16:29 PM

bigsteve3OOO: For the shortsighted:  This will hurt minorities.   That is why it exists.  Keep supporting racist policies democrat party.  You fools.


Really, you have brain damage. Your democrat-hate (which, by the way, appears to be founded on easily disprovable lies) is truly in need of medical attention.
 
2013-11-28 09:21:32 PM

whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*


You mean when half the workforce gets laid off because they're only going to pay the same wages for half the company? Yeah.
 
2013-11-28 09:38:04 PM

Unemployedingreenland: I have a small business and employ about 35 part timers - all college and high school students.  We pay about 15% above minimum wage because I don't want to compete with McD's for my labor pool.  We have no direct competition in the area (we are a particular kind of family amusement business), but there is plenty of indirect competition - everything from other venue based entertainment options - bowling, movies, etc. - to gaming systems, Netflix, etc, to just hanging out at someone's house.  Labor is my single largest expense, and eats approx 35% of revenue.  We are also significantly more labor intensive than my indirect competitors.  Our margins are OK (15%-20%) - not great, but so long as we have a sufficient level of revenue, I can make a decent living for me and my family.

In my state, there is talk of raising the minimum wage to about $13/hr, which would increase my labor costs 50%+.  Regardless of business acumen, there's simply no way to pass that additional cost on to my customers.  We have particular "sticky" price points - $19.99 (no really), and $199.99 (again, really).  No matter how we sell, bundle or package things, once the cost per person hits $20 (or the cost per party/group/event hits $200), we see a significant dropoff in sales.  In other words, people seem to be ok with spending less than $20/$200, but there's a widely-held understanding that $20+/$200+ is too much and there's a visceral aversion to spending that much or more on what we offer.

So if my labor costs increase 50%, my margins go negative unless I can somehow overcome this $20/$200 issue (and we've been doing this long enough to understand that there's no handy solution) or reduce my headcount/make my business less labor intensive.  Since every employee is integral to our customer service, reducing headcount is certain to decrease customer satisfaction, which, all things being equal, impacts sales.

Simply put, we are a business that cannot survive a large spike in the minimum wage ...


What about exploring a new customer base? Have you explored all options to market yourself to a new group, or more effectively to the same group? Advertising that you pay your workers well would attract people (like me) who are tired of supporting companies that don't.

What do they have in their Netflix and living rooms that you aren't offering? Anything you can add to your business?

/insert Cartman: "I'm just asking QUESTIONS!"
//really, just asking questions.  Not trying to say I know your company better than you.
 
2013-11-28 09:57:51 PM

Unemployedingreenland: Our margins are OK (15%-20%) - not great, but so long as we have a sufficient level of revenue, I can make a decent living for me and my family.


And what about your employees?
You say happy and well compensated, but enough to call it a decent living? For them AND their families?

If you're anything like the standard business owner, you've probably got something cooked up like "Well, they're only high school and college students. They don't deserve more. I can't afford more."  I hear that kind of talk alot, and it always seems like while workers aren't owed decent wages, businesses are always owed cheap workers. I'm of the opinion that if your business doesn't provide a living for your employees, it shouldn't provide one for you either. No great loss to see a business relying solely on cheap work go under.

The flip side is such that just maybe, if the entire area/state/etc has an increased minimum wage, you'll actually be able to budge on your price points because of increased ability for consumers to spend. Someone else said it, too. All this belt-tightening has left no one below the top 10% with money left to spend, to be frivolous with, to consume, to drive the damn economy. Your price points won't budge because people won't spend more for your product. I say, especially now, that this isn't because people don't want your product/service, but that they can't justify the cost versus their cost of living.
 
2013-11-28 09:58:27 PM

Bllasae: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

You mean when half the workforce gets laid off because they're only going to pay the same wages for half the company? Yeah.


What's a layoff? Never heard of them. They must not have ever happened in the past.

/If your business requires slaves to succeed, your business can fail.
 
2013-11-28 10:12:43 PM

shower_in_my_socks: A low minimum wage is just another example of corporate welfare. Companies benefit from not having to pay workers a livable wage, knowing that the government will pick up the difference via social programs. Being against socialism, but also against raising the minimum wage, is like being against abortion, but not wanting people to use birth control either.


I'm not sure if the new wage is going to get persons off of social services, but if you are a professional wheeling people around the airport and dressed real tight, you deserve at least that much hourly.
 
2013-11-28 10:29:28 PM

whidbey: dinch: whidbey: dinch: , but how the hell can a business like that support $15 an hour

Dairy Queen is a good example of a business where the cost of their product is well under a dollar per burger, and probably less for cases of fries, ice cream and other stuff.

They can afford a wage increase. They don't want to because they make more money without having to.

I get that, I really do. Thing is, $45 an hour plus insurance (not health, just the basic' if anybody accidentally mixes bleach and chlorine'), product, equipment, rent and then what you're losing to the kids that are being kids... I just don't see how that could be viable.

Well, you're welcome to break it down for me. And I seriously doubt that kids sneaking a burger or an ice cream cone is a major factor in business costs.

If Dairy Queen is making enough profit to stay well afloat, then they can afford a wage increase.

And it's been pointed out here, if you can't put that cost into your business plan, it's stupid to blame a wage increase on your inability to succeed in the market. And I know that's going to piss some armchair economists here off. Good.


Um, if you look it up the average Dairy Queen Franchise owner makes about $70k.  So let's double their labor cost... they'd have to increase the prices on the menu.  If they did nothing and just ate it the franchise owner would be making minimum wage.  And who in their right mind would want to put up with all the headaches of owning a business for minimum wage?  If you've never owned a business, you have no freaking idea what it's like to have to deal with all the red tape around running a legitimate business.  Add to that what a pain in the ass most people are to work with as employees and well... yeah, at a certain point the businesses would just shut down.
 
2013-11-28 10:37:05 PM

whidbey: dinch: whidbey: dinch: , but how the hell can a business like that support $15 an hour

Dairy Queen is a good example of a business where the cost of their product is well under a dollar per burger, and probably less for cases of fries, ice cream and other stuff.

They can afford a wage increase. They don't want to because they make more money without having to.

I get that, I really do. Thing is, $45 an hour plus insurance (not health, just the basic' if anybody accidentally mixes bleach and chlorine'), product, equipment, rent and then what you're losing to the kids that are being kids... I just don't see how that could be viable.

Well, you're welcome to break it down for me. And I seriously doubt that kids sneaking a burger or an ice cream cone is a major factor in business costs.

If Dairy Queen is making enough profit to stay well afloat, then they can afford a wage increase.

And it's been pointed out here, if you can't put that cost into your business plan, it's stupid to blame a wage increase on your inability to succeed in the market. And I know that's going to piss some armchair economists here off. Good.


I am sure you have some stats to cite about the average DQ franchise revenue, margins, labor costs, etc.to support your position...
 
2013-11-28 10:42:00 PM

Unemployedingreenland: Regardless of business acumen, there's simply no way to pass that additional cost on to my customers.  We have particular "sticky" price points - $19.99 (no really), and $199.99 (again, really).  No matter how we sell, bundle or package things, once the cost per person hits $20 (or the cost per party/group/event hits $200), we see a significant dropoff in sales.  In other words, people seem to be ok with spending less than $20/$200, but there's a widely-held understanding that $20+/$200+ is too much and there's a visceral aversion to spending that much or more on what we offer.

So if my labor costs increase 50%, my margins go negative unless I can somehow overcome this $20/$200 issue (and we've been doing this long enough to understand that there's no handy solution)


I hate to break it to you, but even without a minimum wage change, you'd better get that figured out, because inflation is going to peck away at your margins if you can't ever raise your prices.  Just in the past four years, all else being equal, inflation has cut your margins by 7% or so.  So if you can't get past that $20 sticking point, you probably don't have more than four more years left anyway.
 
2013-11-28 10:43:41 PM

You're the jerk... jerk: whidbey: dinch: whidbey: dinch: , but how the hell can a business like that support $15 an hour

Dairy Queen is a good example of a business where the cost of their product is well under a dollar per burger, and probably less for cases of fries, ice cream and other stuff.

They can afford a wage increase. They don't want to because they make more money without having to.

I get that, I really do. Thing is, $45 an hour plus insurance (not health, just the basic' if anybody accidentally mixes bleach and chlorine'), product, equipment, rent and then what you're losing to the kids that are being kids... I just don't see how that could be viable.

Well, you're welcome to break it down for me. And I seriously doubt that kids sneaking a burger or an ice cream cone is a major factor in business costs.

If Dairy Queen is making enough profit to stay well afloat, then they can afford a wage increase.

And it's been pointed out here, if you can't put that cost into your business plan, it's stupid to blame a wage increase on your inability to succeed in the market. And I know that's going to piss some armchair economists here off. Good.

I am sure you have some stats to cite about the average DQ franchise revenue, margins, labor costs, etc.to support your position...


You should expect meta complaining about the tone of your voice and arguments as well as more passive aggression and baseless generalizations.
 
2013-11-28 10:46:42 PM
So, my $6 sandwich currently being sold at Seatac for $17 is gonna cost me what now?
 
2013-11-28 10:57:18 PM

BMulligan: There's a chain of burger joints here in Seattle which starts their employees at $10.25/hour, which is substantially less than $15 of course (although well above the minimum wage), but they also provide 100% employer paid health insurance, child care assistance of up to $8,000/year, and college tuition assistance of up to $5,500/year. They've been in business for over 50 years, and the family that owns the company lives quite well. It is possible to treat employees like human beings and still make a reasonable profit.


In other words, anti-living wage people:

Eat a bag of Dicks.
 
2013-11-28 11:17:46 PM

Testiclaw: neilbradley: I remember being paid $3.25/hr for my first job in 1985. That rate today is around $7.80/hr. So they're getting more than double the rate of inflation.

Oooooooh, this one is good.


Yeah. I pulled my calculator before realizing what was going on.
 
2013-11-28 11:18:28 PM

jicon: So, my $6 sandwich currently being sold at Seatac for $17 is gonna cost me what now?


It's OK, because those people who are unable to comprehend "no mustard, extra pickles" will be making more money than college graduates in most other parts of the country.  Feel good about doing your part, citizen!
 
2013-11-28 11:19:14 PM
We're told the sky will fall whenever the minimum wage goes up. Then the wage goes up. And nothing happens. And then they recycle the same lame arguments a few years later.
 
2013-11-28 11:21:05 PM

whidbey: BMulligan: There's a chain of burger joints here in Seattle which starts their employees at $10.25/hour, which is substantially less than $15 of course (although well above the minimum wage), but they also provide 100% employer paid health insurance, child care assistance of up to $8,000/year, and college tuition assistance of up to $5,500/year. They've been in business for over 50 years, and the family that owns the company lives quite well. It is possible to treat employees like human beings and still make a reasonable profit.

In other words, anti-living wage people:

Eat a bag of Dicks.


and like Batman, their true identity . . .
 
2013-11-28 11:24:22 PM

Brainsick: SCUBA_Archer: overpay for labor.

Do tell...
[d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net image 437x294]


Not sure how they calculate productivity, but isn't the increase in available technology a factor?  We can build skyscrapers with 1/10th the labor that the Empire State Building required.  If business owners buy million dollar cranes to hoist 10 times the material that men could hoist previously, should they be responsible for increasing pay tenfold for the remaining workers in spite of their capital equipment outlay to keep that graph even?  It makes no sense.
 
2013-11-28 11:38:38 PM

aneki: whidbey: dinch: whidbey: dinch: , but how the hell can a business like that support $15 an hour

Dairy Queen is a good example of a business where the cost of their product is well under a dollar per burger, and probably less for cases of fries, ice cream and other stuff.

They can afford a wage increase. They don't want to because they make more money without having to.

I get that, I really do. Thing is, $45 an hour plus insurance (not health, just the basic' if anybody accidentally mixes bleach and chlorine'), product, equipment, rent and then what you're losing to the kids that are being kids... I just don't see how that could be viable.

Well, you're welcome to break it down for me. And I seriously doubt that kids sneaking a burger or an ice cream cone is a major factor in business costs.

If Dairy Queen is making enough profit to stay well afloat, then they can afford a wage increase.

And it's been pointed out here, if you can't put that cost into your business plan, it's stupid to blame a wage increase on your inability to succeed in the market. And I know that's going to piss some armchair economists here off. Good.

Um, if you look it up the average Dairy Queen Franchise owner makes about $70k.  So let's double their labor cost... they'd have to increase the prices on the menu.  If they did nothing and just ate it the franchise owner would be making minimum wage.  And who in their right mind would want to put up with all the headaches of owning a business for minimum wage?  If you've never owned a business, you have no freaking idea what it's like to have to deal with all the red tape around running a legitimate business.  Add to that what a pain in the ass most people are to work with as employees and well... yeah, at a certain point the businesses would just shut down.


What about the increase in profits due to the fact that all the minimum wage workers who work near a Dairy Queen will spend more at Dairy Queen?
 
2013-11-28 11:51:31 PM
Ah, market fundamentalism. This thread is full of it.

Legislating against market forces is futile and racist! Capitalism has no self-destructive tendencies and massive income inequalities created by market forces have never no historical precedent of creating social upheaval that led to massive amounts of pain and suffering, if not the continued existence of capitalism itself. Just let the market do it's thing.
 
2013-11-29 12:00:35 AM

jjorsett: rustypouch: Prophet of Loss: Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.

1. We are talking about minimum wage, so its service jobs.

2. You can raise prices. Your competition is in the same boat and under the same pressures as you.

If your business acumen is so weak you can't pay a living wage and stay in business then maybe you should do something else and leave running a successful business to 'the adults'.

Yep.

If a business can't cover its cost, the model isn't viable.

This is the equivalent of saying if we keep piling weights on you and you eventually collapse, your body isn't viable. Everything can be stressed to the point of failure.


Your analogy is flawed. It isn't a burden on one business, its a burden on all businesses in the area. Business is about competition. There is no stress if the competition is under the same pressures.
 
2013-11-29 12:07:24 AM

Zeno-25: Ah, market fundamentalism. This thread is full of it.

Legislating against market forces is futile and racist! Capitalism has no self-destructive tendencies and massive income inequalities created by market forces have never no historical precedent of creating social upheaval that led to massive amounts of pain and suffering, if not the continued existence of capitalism itself. Just let the market do it's thing.


Made me respond, I'll give you a 2/10.

THE MARKET HAS SPOKEN
 
2013-11-29 12:13:48 AM

Ow! That was my feelings!: [blogs.ubc.ca image 850x850]


Never mind that that cartoon was drawn in 2009, and inflation has been at near-record-lows every year since then.

Oops.
 
2013-11-29 12:22:46 AM

aneki: And who in their right mind would want to put up with all the headaches of owning a business for minimum wage?


memecrunch.com

Won't somebody think of the poor franchise owners???
 
2013-11-29 12:33:27 AM
Too many secrets.
 
2013-11-29 01:50:42 AM
concernedcitizenscoffeecity.com
 
2013-11-29 03:00:22 AM

SCUBA_Archer: If business owners buy million dollar cranes to hoist 10 times the material that men could hoist previously, should they be responsible for increasing pay tenfold for the remaining workers in spite of their capital equipment outlay to keep that graph even?  It makes no sense.


Not necessarily a tenfold increase, but Adam Smith's famous 'Pin Factory' analogy says the remaining workers should see a pay increase, since they are producing the same amount with 1/10th of the personnel needed. The wage stagnation problem has come about because employers are cutting wages for the remaining employees and telling them to appreciate the crumbs they are dealt while funnelling the rest of that profit increase into the pockets of CEO's and upper management.
For example:
I used to work in radio. To make the math easy, let's say I was paid $10/hr to be 'on-air' for four hours a day. That's $200 per week. Now, with the invention of 'voice tracking' (pre-recording the parts where the DJ talks), I can record all content for the week in about 2 hours, which means the employer can get $200 worth of product (me) for $20 as far as straight-up hourly wage is concerned. Does that mean my contribution (talking about music and events) is worth less, simply because the technology makes it easier and faster to provide? I don't think so. Besides the product suffers when there's not a live person there to talk to listeners, give breaking news updates, and adjust the programming in real time. But I digress...

/The above is a gross oversimplification
//Also why I don't work in radio anymore
 
2013-11-29 03:29:51 AM

super_grass: Made me respond, I'll give you a 2/10.


Dude, shut up. You're one of the biggest trolls here. You don't get to rate other posts.
 
2013-11-29 03:32:31 AM

Klom Dark: Unemployedingreenland: I have a small business and employ about 35 part timers - all college and high school students.  We pay about 15% above minimum wage because I don't want to compete with McD's for my labor pool.  We have no direct competition in the area (we are a particular kind of family amusement business), but there is plenty of indirect competition - everything from other venue based entertainment options - bowling, movies, etc. - to gaming systems, Netflix, etc, to just hanging out at someone's house.  Labor is my single largest expense, and eats approx 35% of revenue.  We are also significantly more labor intensive than my indirect competitors.  Our margins are OK (15%-20%) - not great, but so long as we have a sufficient level of revenue, I can make a decent living for me and my family.

In my state, there is talk of raising the minimum wage to about $13/hr, which would increase my labor costs 50%+.  Regardless of business acumen, there's simply no way to pass that additional cost on to my customers.  We have particular "sticky" price points - $19.99 (no really), and $199.99 (again, really).  No matter how we sell, bundle or package things, once the cost per person hits $20 (or the cost per party/group/event hits $200), we see a significant dropoff in sales.  In other words, people seem to be ok with spending less than $20/$200, but there's a widely-held understanding that $20+/$200+ is too much and there's a visceral aversion to spending that much or more on what we offer.

So if my labor costs increase 50%, my margins go negative unless I can somehow overcome this $20/$200 issue (and we've been doing this long enough to understand that there's no handy solution) or reduce my headcount/make my business less labor intensive.  Since every employee is integral to our customer service, reducing headcount is certain to decrease customer satisfaction, which, all things being equal, impacts sales.

Simply put, we are a business that cannot survive a large spike in the minimum wage ...

Well, consider yourself lucky... I own a business that has no labor costs but my own time (Which I do not charge the company for...), have put thousands of hours into it for two years. Have spent time to list over 40,000 items (Collectable Sports Cards). It's free for anyone to list their items for absolutely free and in order to get people to just use the site not even currently charging ANYTHING to ANYONE, and still haven't made a damn sale. A miserable failure of a business that I do out of the goodness of my heart and also to fine-tune my skills as a developer/consultant.

TonsOfCards.com, check it out, nobody else does...


Have you thought of expanding to let people sell magic or pokemon cards as well?
 
2013-11-29 03:33:15 AM
Wow, the right-wing trolls are all attacking Whidbey. He must be correct.
 
2013-11-29 03:37:38 AM

whidbey: super_grass: Made me respond, I'll give you a 2/10.

Dude, shut up. You're one of the biggest trolls here. You don't get to rate other posts.


LOL
 
2013-11-29 03:38:19 AM

Klom Dark: Well, consider yourself lucky... I own a business that has no labor costs but my own time (Which I do not charge the company for...), have put thousands of hours into it for two years. Have spent time to list over 40,000 items (Collectable Sports Cards). It's free for anyone to list their items for absolutely free and in order to get people to just use the site not even currently charging ANYTHING to ANYONE, and still haven't made a damn sale. A miserable failure of a business that I do out of the goodness of my heart and also to fine-tune my skills as a developer/consultant.

TonsOfCards.com, check it out, nobody else does...


I did, and it's not very good. It looks like a lot of web sites do when their developer does all the work on one particular computer with a particular monitor in a particular lighting that makes him or her feel a particular way. I suggest you back up your site in its entirety, and then completely remove the CSS formatting to return to a totally neutral look and see what you still have. Some things I noticed that are uncomfortable to use: adding to your shopping cart should immediately put a price on the cart icon; drilling down into (for example) Basketball > 1990 > Fleer > Base Set is not how people want to browse; floating controls to the right are annoying especially since your site seems to demand a particular width; and although your popup caption effect is kind of fun, the text often appears offscreen or outside the background that makes it readable.  I'm sure your programming skills are up to par, so find a way to show them off.
 
2013-11-29 03:41:51 AM

super_grass: whidbey: super_grass: Made me respond, I'll give you a 2/10.

Dude, shut up. You're one of the biggest trolls here. You don't get to rate other posts.

LOL


Oh I'm sorry. By all means, don't let me stop you from continuing to post from the wrong side of history. My bad.
 
2013-11-29 03:47:38 AM

whidbey: super_grass: whidbey: super_grass: Made me respond, I'll give you a 2/10.

Dude, shut up. You're one of the biggest trolls here. You don't get to rate other posts.

LOL

Oh I'm sorry. By all means, don't let me stop you from continuing to post from the wrong side of history. My bad.


I'm almost certain that this is the work of some Andy Kaufman-esque genius meant to stretch Poe's law to its absolute limits. Shame on me for not getting this earlier.
 
2013-11-29 03:48:07 AM
Jesus shut up troll.
 
2013-11-29 04:00:23 AM
Whidbey

Consider that a troll spends all his time posting erroneous statements and trying to get a rise out of people. Either they're paid, and therefore they won't quit, or they live a sad and very pathetic life spending all their free time posting over-and-over again trying to get the last post and therefore "win" the argument.

Sad, pathetic people... so sad.
 
2013-11-29 04:21:22 AM

Weatherkiss: Capitalism simply will not work unless there's a way to off-set labor costs for the sake of additional profit. Whether it's slavery in the 1800's, child laborers in the Industrial revolution, or outsourcing labor costs to foreign countries who don't have to play by our rules in the present day -- they'll find a way to worm their way around having to pay additional money for labor.

Either we pay for it through inflation, or some chinese workers in sweatshops overseas pay for it through horrible working conditions making a fraction of the money we would.


So places like Germany that have equivalent levels of minimum wage, similar levels of unemployment, similar cost of living, similar levels of inflation and GDP growth during the last few decades while that has been the case means what to your hypothesis? Either most Americans are uniquely lazy and bad workers compared to the rest of the world, and therefore have to be paid less, or that you are talking complete rubbish.
 
2013-11-29 05:12:03 AM

Unemployedingreenland: I have a small business and employ about 35 part timers - all college and high school students.  We pay about 15% above minimum wage because I don't want to compete with McD's for my labor pool.  We have no direct competition in the area (we are a particular kind of family amusement business), but there is plenty of indirect competition - everything from other venue based entertainment options - bowling, movies, etc. - to gaming systems, Netflix, etc, to just hanging out at someone's house.  Labor is my single largest expense, and eats approx 35% of revenue.  We are also significantly more labor intensive than my indirect competitors.  Our margins are OK (15%-20%) - not great, but so long as we have a sufficient level of revenue, I can make a decent living for me and my family.

In my state, there is talk of raising the minimum wage to about $13/hr, which would increase my labor costs 50%+.  Regardless of business acumen, there's simply no way to pass that additional cost on to my customers.  We have particular "sticky" price points - $19.99 (no really), and $199.99 (again, really).  No matter how we sell, bundle or package things, once the cost per person hits $20 (or the cost per party/group/event hits $200), we see a significant dropoff in sales.  In other words, people seem to be ok with spending less than $20/$200, but there's a widely-held understanding that $20+/$200+ is too much and there's a visceral aversion to spending that much or more on what we offer.

So if my labor costs increase 50%, my margins go negative unless I can somehow overcome this $20/$200 issue (and we've been doing this long enough to understand that there's no handy solution) or reduce my headcount/make my business less labor intensive.  Since every employee is integral to our customer service, reducing headcount is certain to decrease customer satisfaction, which, all things being equal, impacts sales.

Simply put, we are a business that cannot survive a large spike in the minimum wage ...



Have you considered calculating the basic fact that an increased minimum wage means more disposable income which means increased customers/sales for your amusement business? You are not a fixed/essential service so you can only profit when people have left over money to spend on you after they have paid all their bills. In other words, you WANT wages to go up. You NEED wages to go up. If wages don't go up, there will be nobody around with any money to spend on your recreation.
 
2013-11-29 05:22:01 AM

whidbey: Jesus shut up troll.


www.buckeyeinteractive.com
 
2013-11-29 05:25:17 AM
In July 2007, the federal minimum was $5.15. In July 2009 it was $7.25, a jump of 41% in just two years. I don't recall any serious economic trouble during that time period.
 
2013-11-29 06:26:46 AM

Sim Tree: Have you thought of expanding to let people sell magic or pokemon cards as well?


I have, definitely. Do you know where to get lists of all sets for all years of those series? I need them to make the fast listing system work. (You have to log in to see that part) Without the lists I'm kind of stuck, most people do not want to list cards one at a time - it takes too long.
 
2013-11-29 06:37:01 AM

dangelder: Klom Dark: Well, consider yourself lucky... I own a business that has no labor costs but my own time (Which I do not charge the company for...), have put thousands of hours into it for two years. Have spent time to list over 40,000 items (Collectable Sports Cards). It's free for anyone to list their items for absolutely free and in order to get people to just use the site not even currently charging ANYTHING to ANYONE, and still haven't made a damn sale. A miserable failure of a business that I do out of the goodness of my heart and also to fine-tune my skills as a developer/consultant.

TonsOfCards.com, check it out, nobody else does...

I did, and it's not very good. It looks like a lot of web sites do when their developer does all the work on one particular computer with a particular monitor in a particular lighting that makes him or her feel a particular way. I suggest you back up your site in its entirety, and then completely remove the CSS formatting to return to a totally neutral look and see what you still have. Some things I noticed that are uncomfortable to use: adding to your shopping cart should immediately put a price on the cart icon; drilling down into (for example) Basketball > 1990 > Fleer > Base Set is not how people want to browse; floating controls to the right are annoying especially since your site seems to demand a particular width; and although your popup caption effect is kind of fun, the text often appears offscreen or outside the background that makes it readable.  I'm sure your programming skills are up to par, so find a way to show them off.


Ouch! It always hurts when someone calls your baby ugly, but it is kind of ugly I admit. :)  In my defense, the mobile interface is way better looking than the desktop site. (You can see the mobile site from a desktop browser by going to TonsOfCards/Mobile/Home/ - That's the new interface I've come up with lately and eventually want to replace the desktop interface with the mobile interface for everyone/everything)

But you make some valid points. I am suffering from the common "design done by a coder instead of a designer" effect and any feedback is good feedback. Not sure about your comment about demanding a particular width as it's all done using liquid layout so it should auto-adjust to any screen size. If anything it seems a bit sparse when viewed at too wide of a width.

I like your "immediately put a price on the cart icon" idea and will do that.

As far as the browsing, not sure how else to do it with the type of stuff I need to display. Puzzled how else you'd suggest I do it?
 
2013-11-29 06:50:50 AM
Equating a minimum wage raise to racism is a new one on me.

Good job, conservatrolls! You never cease to amaze me. I'd pay you over minimum wage for sheer amusement value, but that would imply you're black or another minority, and I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings.
 
2013-11-29 07:40:15 AM

Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.


If your bidness model is based on your workers not making more than minimum wage, then you're a terrible bidness man with a product or service people are not willing to pay for and you should go out of bidness.

See: antebellum southern slave economy and causes of The Civil War.

Hint: We said No to the slave economy.
 
2013-11-29 09:27:47 AM

Ow! That was my feelings!: [blogs.ubc.ca image 850x850]


Average inflation rate from 1981-1985: 4.31%
Average inflation rate from 2009-2013: 2.15%

Just sayin'.

Bonus question:  Is negative inflation good or bad?
 
2013-11-29 09:30:06 AM

shower_in_my_socks: A low minimum wage is just another example of corporate welfare. Companies benefit from not having to pay workers a livable wage, knowing that the government will pick up the difference via social programs. Being against socialism, but also against raising the minimum wage, is like being against abortion, but not wanting people to use birth control either.


In other words, being a Republican.
 
2013-11-29 09:35:04 AM

Klom Dark: dangelder: Klom Dark: Well, consider yourself lucky... I own a business that has no labor costs but my own time (Which I do not charge the company for...), have put thousands of hours into it for two years. Have spent time to list over 40,000 items (Collectable Sports Cards). It's free for anyone to list their items for absolutely free and in order to get people to just use the site not even currently charging ANYTHING to ANYONE, and still haven't made a damn sale. A miserable failure of a business that I do out of the goodness of my heart and also to fine-tune my skills as a developer/consultant.

TonsOfCards.com, check it out, nobody else does...

I did, and it's not very good. It looks like a lot of web sites do when their developer does all the work on one particular computer with a particular monitor in a particular lighting that makes him or her feel a particular way. I suggest you back up your site in its entirety, and then completely remove the CSS formatting to return to a totally neutral look and see what you still have. Some things I noticed that are uncomfortable to use: adding to your shopping cart should immediately put a price on the cart icon; drilling down into (for example) Basketball > 1990 > Fleer > Base Set is not how people want to browse; floating controls to the right are annoying especially since your site seems to demand a particular width; and although your popup caption effect is kind of fun, the text often appears offscreen or outside the background that makes it readable.  I'm sure your programming skills are up to par, so find a way to show them off.

Ouch! It always hurts when someone calls your baby ugly, but it is kind of ugly I admit. :)  In my defense, the mobile interface is way better looking than the desktop site. (You can see the mobile site from a desktop browser by going to TonsOfCards/Mobile/Home/ - That's the new interface I've come up with lately and eventually want to replace the desktop interface with the mobil ...


Your mobile site is better.
http://tonsofcards.com/Mobile/Home/CardView/72debb52-740b-e211-8be4- 00 5056c00008 and click "Petey" takes me to a server error.
I suggest that if you're going to a sub-page with less than fifty or so total leaf nodes (like all of your non-baseball sport pages), don't break out more categories, just join the results. Try the path I suggested in my other comment and see that there is three clicks more than should be needed, you could show every basketball card you have on the first touch.  Don't feel bad, designing always has to be done over and over and over even when you're good at it.
 
2013-11-29 09:51:55 AM

dangelder: Klom Dark: dangelder: Klom Dark: Well, consider yourself lucky... I own a business that has no labor costs but my own time (Which I do not charge the company for...), have put thousands of hours into it for two years. Have spent time to list over 40,000 items (Collectable Sports Cards). It's free for anyone to list their items for absolutely free and in order to get people to just use the site not even currently charging ANYTHING to ANYONE, and still haven't made a damn sale. A miserable failure of a business that I do out of the goodness of my heart and also to fine-tune my skills as a developer/consultant.

TonsOfCards.com, check it out, nobody else does...

I did, and it's not very good. It looks like a lot of web sites do when their developer does all the work on one particular computer with a particular monitor in a particular lighting that makes him or her feel a particular way. I suggest you back up your site in its entirety, and then completely remove the CSS formatting to return to a totally neutral look and see what you still have. Some things I noticed that are uncomfortable to use: adding to your shopping cart should immediately put a price on the cart icon; drilling down into (for example) Basketball > 1990 > Fleer > Base Set is not how people want to browse; floating controls to the right are annoying especially since your site seems to demand a particular width; and although your popup caption effect is kind of fun, the text often appears offscreen or outside the background that makes it readable.  I'm sure your programming skills are up to par, so find a way to show them off.

Ouch! It always hurts when someone calls your baby ugly, but it is kind of ugly I admit. :)  In my defense, the mobile interface is way better looking than the desktop site. (You can see the mobile site from a desktop browser by going to TonsOfCards/Mobile/Home/ - That's the new interface I've come up with lately and eventually want to replace the desktop interface wit ...


Your mobile site is better.
http://tonsofcards.com/Mobile/Home/CardView/72debb52-740b-e211-8be4- 00 5056c00008 and click "Petey" takes me to a server error.

Aw crap, good find, stupid error on my part: Going to the wrong (old) URL, should be: /BrowseBySeller, not /CardsBySeller). Fixed. Thank you.

I tried joining all the results before and ran into performance issues with the baseball cards, but your idea about doing it only for the ones with less nodes is a good suggestion. Show many then allow further filtering will make that better.

Excellent suggestions, I appreciate it, thanks!
 
2013-11-29 10:23:12 AM

Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.


THEN RAISE YOUR PRICES.
 
2013-11-29 11:03:34 AM

Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then  there simply won't be any profits. they will become 57% of expenses.


/math, how does it work?
 
2013-11-29 11:06:25 AM

dangelder: In July 2007, the federal minimum was $5.15. In July 2009 it was $7.25, a jump of 41% in just two years. I don't recall any serious economic trouble during that time period.


Well there was no major economic turmoil after that minimum wage increase, or after the one before that, or the one before that, or the one before that but the next minimum wage increase will definitely cause the US economy to collapse into a dystopian hellhole. The GOP mouthbreathing economic prognosticators will finally be right this time
 
2013-11-29 11:37:03 AM

rustypouch: Prophet of Loss: Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.

1. We are talking about minimum wage, so its service jobs.

2. You can raise prices. Your competition is in the same boat and under the same pressures as you.

If your business acumen is so weak you can't pay a living wage and stay in business then maybe you should do something else and leave running a successful business to 'the adults'.

Yep.

If a business can't cover its cost, the model isn't viable.


I bet you don' say the same thing about a government.
 
2013-11-29 11:44:45 AM

blgcountre: Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.

THEN RAISE YOUR PRICES.


If he could raise his prices, he would already. Why would he care what his labor costs are?
 
2013-11-29 11:56:55 AM

Carousel Beast: rustypouch: Prophet of Loss: Mr. Eugenides: whidbey: OK I predict this thread is going to be about "oh the poor poor employers who have to cough up extra $$$ that takes away from their PROFITS."

*read in a Ferengi voice*

If there is no profit, why am I investing all my money and 80 hours of my time per week?

So I'm assuming you feel that a business owner is entitled to some return on investment if not, well then you're an uneducatable semi literate child and should hold your tongue while the adults speak.

That said, if labor costs are 40% of expenses and they double then there simply won't be any profits.

1. We are talking about minimum wage, so its service jobs.

2. You can raise prices. Your competition is in the same boat and under the same pressures as you.

If your business acumen is so weak you can't pay a living wage and stay in business then maybe you should do something else and leave running a successful business to 'the adults'.

Yep.

If a business can't cover its cost, the model isn't viable.

I bet you don' say the same thing about a government.


Can we stop comparing the government to businesses?

Governments are inherently different from businesses and have explicitly different goals.
 
2013-11-29 01:22:26 PM

Carousel Beast: I bet you don' say the same thing about a government.


Governments aren't businesses. A business is trying to provide a product or a service to a target market for profit. Governments provide services equally to all people everywhere for public health and well-being.

When you run a government like a business, it is called Fascism.
 
2013-11-29 01:51:34 PM

Brainsick: SCUBA_Archer: If business owners buy million dollar cranes to hoist 10 times the material that men could hoist previously, should they be responsible for increasing pay tenfold for the remaining workers in spite of their capital equipment outlay to keep that graph even?  It makes no sense.

Not necessarily a tenfold increase, but Adam Smith's famous 'Pin Factory' analogy says the remaining workers should see a pay increase, since they are producing the same amount with 1/10th of the personnel needed. The wage stagnation problem has come about because employers are cutting wages for the remaining employees and telling them to appreciate the crumbs they are dealt while funnelling the rest of that profit increase into the pockets of CEO's and upper management.
For example:
I used to work in radio. To make the math easy, let's say I was paid $10/hr to be 'on-air' for four hours a day. That's $200 per week. Now, with the invention of 'voice tracking' (pre-recording the parts where the DJ talks), I can record all content for the week in about 2 hours, which means the employer can get $200 worth of product (me) for $20 as far as straight-up hourly wage is concerned. Does that mean my contribution (talking about music and events) is worth less, simply because the technology makes it easier and faster to provide? I don't think so. Besides the product suffers when there's not a live person there to talk to listeners, give breaking news updates, and adjust the programming in real time. But I digress...

/The above is a gross oversimplification
//Also why I don't work in radio anymore


Unless there is something significant about your personality/fame, or there is something wacky about the pitch and/or tone of your voice, what is preventing the radio company from hiring the next guy that will record voiceovers and bumpers for lower wages?  I think you proved my point in that the radio station, by investing in new equipment that doesn't require an on-air personality 24/7, can now get the work done for a lower price, because there would be (theoretically) more competition to do that work.  Also, with the Pop radio stations becoming the equivalent of an ipod set on shuffle, you no longer need a high priced DJ to spin records, when an 18 year old intern just has to hit play and walk away.  Tell me how that's not saving millions of labor dollars with new technology?
 
2013-11-29 05:31:16 PM

super_grass: whidbey: Jesus shut up troll.

[www.buckeyeinteractive.com image 325x203]


Does it really bother nobody else that the freakin' lawnmower is flying?

Freaky!
 
2013-11-29 05:58:08 PM

betasp: Lusiphur: And if labor costs are 40% of your revenue, and you aren't a high end consultancy, then you suck at business and deserve to close. I can't even conceive of a business that both employs minimum wage workers and has 40% of revenue tied up in labor cost.

Um, textiles comes to mind. Also a number of other manufacturing businesses..


and the hotel industry...      http://hotelexecutive.com/business_review/3183/labor-cost-models-asia- versus-north-america
 
2013-11-29 06:07:12 PM

Ishkur: .

When you run a government like a business, it is called Fascism.


*doing a horizontal aloha-hand-waggle-sorta-meh to this one*
 
2013-11-29 11:58:28 PM

neilbradley: I remember being paid $3.25/hr for my first job in 1985. That rate today is around $7.80/hr. So they're getting more than double the rate of inflation.


Try again...3.25 in 1985 is the same as 7.05 in 2013 buying power
 
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