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(The New York Times)   "Speculative greed bolstered by a contemporary utopian cyberlibertarian ideology" So, what you're saying is this is a sound investment?   (nytimes.com) divider line 117
    More: Interesting, bitcoins, Fest, greed, payment processor, ideology, Silk Road, investments, Senator Charles E. Schumer  
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4645 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Nov 2013 at 12:55 PM (38 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-27 12:15:18 PM
Currently at 1070. 12:14am EDT
 
2013-11-27 12:56:19 PM
speculative greed bolstered by a contemporary utopian cyberlibertarian ideology

That sounds like Hipsterspeak to me.
 
2013-11-27 01:07:14 PM
How does one go about finding a objective value for a bitcoin?  Until I can figure that out, I won't be investing though it's always tempting to play the greater fool game.  It's great when you win, but it really sucks when you're the fool.

Right now, I'm much more comfortable playing the greater fool game in speculative equities.
 
2013-11-27 01:07:58 PM
Are Bitcoins really more valuable or is it that the dollar is worth less because of massive Wall St. and Federal Reserve counterfeiting.
 
2013-11-27 01:09:15 PM
It's speculation driven almost solely by the buzz around it. That said the currency represents nothing at all, and I suspect it's a short term blip on a move to a more meaningful type of cryptocurrency or something similar.

I mean at least something like CureCoin is being created to turn the senseless mining into Protein Folding. That's  something.
 
2013-11-27 01:09:50 PM

flynn80: Are Bitcoins really more valuable or is it that the dollar is worth less because of massive Wall St. and Federal Reserve counterfeiting.


Neither.
 
2013-11-27 01:10:37 PM

Rapmaster2000: How does one go about finding a objective value for a bitcoin?


Your best bet is buying gold. I've seen on TV that the US dollar will be all but worthless soon, so a number of philanthropic organizations have stepped up and are willing to accept your dollar bills in return for valuable gold. I mean, seriously... how could a deal possibly get any better than that. It's practically alchemy.
 
2013-11-27 01:12:30 PM
Bah. Cyberlibertarian Tulip Mania more like.
 
2013-11-27 01:14:17 PM
Bitcoin is a sound assessment if you have already sold.
 
2013-11-27 01:15:34 PM

flynn80: Are Bitcoins really more valuable or is it that the dollar is worth less because of massive Wall St. and Federal Reserve counterfeiting.


A smart person would compare Bitcoins to Euros and eliminate one of those answers.
 
2013-11-27 01:20:49 PM

Primum: Bah. Cyberlibertarian Tulip Mania more like.


You do realize Tulip Mania wasn't actually a thing right?
 
2013-11-27 01:21:00 PM

Rapmaster2000: flynn80: Are Bitcoins really more valuable or is it that the dollar is worth less because of massive Wall St. and Federal Reserve counterfeiting.

A smart person would compare Bitcoins to Euros and eliminate one of those answers.


I love how many people who are into Bitcoins will go on and on about "fiat currency" and how government-issued currency is worthless.

OK, then, I'll take it off your hands, dumbass.
 
2013-11-27 01:24:18 PM

van1ty: Primum: Bah. Cyberlibertarian Tulip Mania more like.

You do realize Tulip Mania wasn't actually a thing right?


No?
 
2013-11-27 01:33:27 PM

Arkanaut: van1ty: Primum: Bah. Cyberlibertarian Tulip Mania more like.

You do realize Tulip Mania wasn't actually a thing right?

No?


yeah, what?
 
2013-11-27 01:35:23 PM

impaler: Currently at 1070. 12:14am PM EDT


Fixed that for me. Serves me right converting from central time in the AM.

Also:
Currently at 935. 1:33pm EDT, crashing pretty good right now.
 
2013-11-27 01:36:50 PM
So this is about Bitcoins, right?

/Going to RTFA.
 
2013-11-27 01:37:55 PM

ragnarok628: Arkanaut: van1ty: Primum: Bah. Cyberlibertarian Tulip Mania more like.

You do realize Tulip Mania wasn't actually a thing right?

No?

yeah, what?


Is this some sort of Libertarian History that libertarains use to make themselves feel better?
 
2013-11-27 01:38:45 PM

van1ty: Primum: Bah. Cyberlibertarian Tulip Mania more like.

You do realize Tulip Mania wasn't actually a thing right?


www.thebubblebubble.com
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-11-27 01:41:56 PM
Is there any assurance whatsoever that a couple of people aren't just selling the same bitcoin back to each other at a penny more each time? I don't know anything, I don't even know how the Dow Jones keeps that from happening if it does.
 
2013-11-27 01:42:32 PM
people.hofstra.edu
 
2013-11-27 01:43:35 PM
Uggh, I can't understand anarchists. I mean, you can't really not have a government. Especially in the modern world. How would anarchism even work?
 
2013-11-27 01:45:47 PM
Dammit, I hate utopian cyberlibertarian conservatards.

No, seriously. They get up my nose.

They go far to prove my maxim that the people who want to upload their personalities into machines and live forever as gods are the people who least deserve to be able to do it.

Have you ever seen those millionaire brothers who are paying millions for research into immortality?

Creepy.

Even their limousine is creepy. Makes me think of Trading Places.

I am of two minds on the wisdom of immortality. On the one hand I wouldn't mind living long and prospering, but on the other I have read Gulliver's Travels, and Dean Jonathan Swift made a great point about the potential risks of immortal live:  immortal senility.

I am a natural pessimist (which is to say, an incorrigible optimist) and I can see a downside to everything.

Keeps me from trying stupid things. Of course, if you want to be a success, the best and wisest way is to fail, and fail, and fail again, but less and less and less (to paraphase Danish epigrammatist, Piet Hein), but that is beside the point. To the optimistic and incorrigible idiot belongs the spoils. The idiot is probably the person who spoiled them in the first place.
 
2013-11-27 01:45:58 PM
images.angelpub.com
 
2013-11-27 01:47:06 PM
A little while ago this author was arguing that bitcoins should be regulated by a central bank. Now he has his panties in a wad because he didn't buy up some cheap bitcoins when their value skyrocketed

Bitcoins are completely anonymous so of course they could be easily used for money laundering purposes

What is going on right now is rampant speculation. Bitcoins are a math-driven currency and are impossible to counterfeit. There is also a hard cap of 1 million bitcoins so once they are all mined; no more. The only inflation or deflation will be determined by the holders of bitcoins themselves and those that wish to purchase them
gold,
This is what happens when a currency gets "unpegged" from some standard whether it be gold, silver, or the American Dollar (which most countries in the world peg their currencies to; most do not freely float). Something similar happened in the UK when they allowed their Pound Sterling to float freely. Of course then it devalued rather harshly and one of our good buddies George Soros made his fortune taking the short bet against the Pound. His only regret was that he did not have any more money or assets to bet against the Pound

The bitcoin might settle gently at a much lower rate or it'll most likely crash to get there. After all the attention it is getting fades so the speculation will fade it will settle on some value. It could take 5-10 years for this to happen. The bitcoin has been around for at least 3 years and has fluctuated from like $150 to $8 up and down

These people poo-poohing it really have about as much idea what the Bitcoin will do as you or I. If economists and opinion section authors could influence monetary values just like that they would easily be the most powerful people in the world
 
2013-11-27 01:52:27 PM

Richard C Stanford: How would anarchism even work?


Natural-born leaders would appear from the fray to form a basic level of order.  Basic human rights would be enforced through public humiliation and, when necessary, retribution.

Eventually, as the tribe grows, we'll need more leaders than we have "natural born" ones.  These will be appointed by the true leaders as ideologues to carry out their orders in spirit.

As the tribe matures and becomes knowledgeable of how their leadership functions, they will demand to have a say in who is appointed.  A "vote", if you will, is conducted to "elect", again, if you will, leaders.

Long story short, modern governance.

But anarchists don't believe that government is an organic creation of any large group of intelligent beings.
 
2013-11-27 01:53:05 PM

Elroydb: What is going on right now is rampant speculation. Bitcoins are a math-driven currency and are impossible to counterfeit. There is also a hard cap of 1 million bitcoins so once they are all mined; no more. The only inflation or deflation will be determined by the holders of bitcoins themselves and those that wish to purchase them


Pedantic: the cap is 21 million, not 1 million. Still capped, just not that low.
 
2013-11-27 01:54:12 PM
i thought it was 21 million
 
2013-11-27 01:54:45 PM
Did $6M pizza guy do a swan dive off the Golden Gate yet?
 
2013-11-27 01:57:02 PM

tricycleracer: Richard C Stanford: How would anarchism even work?

Natural-born leaders would appear from the fray to form a basic level of order.  Basic human rights would be enforced through public humiliation and, when necessary, retribution.

Eventually, as the tribe grows, we'll need more leaders than we have "natural born" ones.  These will be appointed by the true leaders as ideologues to carry out their orders in spirit.

As the tribe matures and becomes knowledgeable of how their leadership functions, they will demand to have a say in who is appointed.  A "vote", if you will, is conducted to "elect", again, if you will, leaders.

Long story short, modern governance.

But anarchists don't believe that government is an organic creation of any large group of intelligent beings.


So, morons.
 
2013-11-27 01:58:16 PM
Buttcoin again.

Get over it guys. Your little crypto-currency will always be niche because it is actually too small. The guy that designed it really didn't think ahead very well.

I know, I know. Gold standard. Near infinite ability to get smaller. Yada yada yada.

Do you honestly not understand that a gold standard is farking terrible for a growing economy? Heck, it isn't really all that great for the temporarily deflationary economies either. All deflationary periods are, in fact, hyper-inflationary at the end with gold standards.

Not only that, but even more so than gold, Buttcoin is subject to theft. See: all the exchanges 'robbed' (some are thought to have been scams) in the last year.

Rapmaster2000: How does one go about finding a objective value for a bitcoin?  Until I can figure that out, I won't be investing though it's always tempting to play the greater fool game.  It's great when you win, but it really sucks when you're the fool.

Right now, I'm much more comfortable playing the greater fool game in speculative equities.


There really isn't, and this is important, a subjective way to establish value. There is nothing backing it but (the theory of) rarity. Common belief holds the currency market together, but in the end, it's the output from the countries that defines the currency's value. Buttcoin has no home providing it with real backing.

As far as equities, I always like multi-use precious metals: Platinum, Palladium, et al.

I avoid Gold and Silver, too boom / bust. Heck, not even as much use in the manufacturing segment as they used to have in years before.
 
2013-11-27 02:02:46 PM
I am wary of bitcoins. It is private currency. It is not Government-regulated or "guaranteed", which might recommend it to anarchists and libertarians but also recommends it to manipulators and fraudsters and speculators.

We have tried private fire insurance, private policing and private banking. It doesn't work all that great. Best to leave all of this stuff to corporate giants and governments, who can afford to carry a big loss for a long time without panic.

I would argue that the problem with American banks has not been that they are too big to fail, but that they are too small and fail rather easily. In Canada we have the Seven Sisters. That is almost the whole system. They are big enough to think long term and to avoid gimmicks in the name of competition (screw you, customers, we are almost the only game in town. No toasters for you!)

In the current conjuncture, I tend not to blame the bête-noires of conservatism but on the contrary, the big money. But even the big money is not entirely to blame.

There is simply too much money chasing too few opportunities. The growth is happening in the developing world and this sucks the profits out of anything you can do in the developed world, creating a partial vacuum.

When rich people don't have anywhere to park or invest their money at high profits, they turn to speculation. They can afford it because the Government will bail them out. The middle classes and the mass affluent get caught up and get burned big time. Their losses are somebody else's profits, or else are paper money disappearing into thin air. I'm not saying printed money--that's just fine. I mean "paper money", fake money, money that exists only on paper unless you can find a bigger fool to take it off of your hands. It's more like the fake paper money the Chinese burn for their ancestors than "fiat currency".

I don't think these gold bugs and libertarians understand that. They think the problem is in government or banks. It is in the deluded minds of the masses of small investors.

This doesn't mean I don't hate bankers with a passion. They are fecking parasites and con-artists. Banking has repeatedly lost more money in crashes than it has made in centuries of profit. It's worse than investing in railroad shares or dotcoms, but it keeps coming back like Count Dracula.

Why won't the damn vampires stay dead?

If I am right, you can't expect a lot of growth in the developing world except when new tech and new products are created. Old people don't need anything. They have entire rooms and basements full of stuff that hasn't even been removed from the plastic. They want for nothing and therefore generate no economic activity until they die and somebody has to distribute the wealth to the local dumps, charities, and heirs and assigns.

Obviously healthcare and legal services and a few other things are needed by the old and rich. But the old and rich make poor customers as a rule. They are smart and don't leave you much profit margin. Television and advertising chase the foolish young for a reason. They are not yet set in their ways and their brand preferences. They are not able to tell a con from a fashion (there is no difference between a con and a fashion).

And so it goes, and so it goes. A dose of healthy scepticism and distrust of experts is good for you in moderation. Like health food, it will cure you if you consume way too much of it.
 
2013-11-27 02:07:06 PM

Dadoody: [images.angelpub.com image 850x637]


Ooooo! Unobtanium!
 
2013-11-27 02:08:42 PM

DarkSoulNoHope: speculative greed bolstered by a contemporary utopian cyberlibertarian ideology

That sounds like Hipsterspeak to me.


CEO Morgan is the hippest capitalist on Alpha Centauri
 
2013-11-27 02:09:29 PM

tricycleracer: van1ty: Primum: Bah. Cyberlibertarian Tulip Mania more like.

You do realize Tulip Mania wasn't actually a thing right?

[www.thebubblebubble.com image 255x298]
[4.bp.blogspot.com image 200x174]


Skimming through the Wikipedia article on this and there are a few possible explanations for van1ty's claim:

1) The historical price data is hard to compile, especially since there are lots of different varietals, some valued much, much higher than others;
2) The "prices" reflected options contracts that were easily canceled but not purchases that were actually finalized;
3) The purchases were made by flower growers hoping to invest in a new product, and thus were worth it to them even at high prices.

All of these explanations seem to have weaknesses though, and the fact remains that there was a speculative bubble, although possibly one whose effects were overblown (no pun intended).
 
2013-11-27 02:09:35 PM
One thing that fascinates me with bitcoin, is when the gold bugs debate the bitcoin bugs.

A Response to Peter Schiff's Bitcoin vs Gold Video from a Bitcoiner
 
2013-11-27 02:13:49 PM

Rapmaster2000: How does one go about finding a objective value for a bitcoin?  Until I can figure that out, I won't be investing though it's always tempting to play the greater fool game.  It's great when you win, but it really sucks when you're the fool.

Right now, I'm much more comfortable playing the greater fool game in speculative equities.


How does one go about finding a objective value for a dollar?
 
2013-11-27 02:15:43 PM

Fano: DarkSoulNoHope: speculative greed bolstered by a contemporary utopian cyberlibertarian ideology

That sounds like Hipsterspeak to me.

CEO Morgan is the hippest capitalist on Alpha Centauri


lol. Just seems like the media world wants to appeal to the Hipsters, so they create long phrases with big words which sound intelligent but in reality is just nonsense speak. "Speculative greed" is an actual term (think the oil speculation happening today) but "contemporary utopian cyberlibertarian" is just mouth garbage, spewed out because someone wants to sound smarter than they are.
 
2013-11-27 02:16:02 PM

Have_Brain: Rapmaster2000: How does one go about finding a objective value for a bitcoin?  Until I can figure that out, I won't be investing though it's always tempting to play the greater fool game.  It's great when you win, but it really sucks when you're the fool.

Right now, I'm much more comfortable playing the greater fool game in speculative equities.

How does one go about finding a objective value for a dollar?


Money is a store of labor.

Be it a dollar or a Klondike bar, you can get someone to do something for it.

What would you do for a Bitcoin?
 
2013-11-27 02:19:41 PM

Have_Brain: How does one go about finding a objective value for a dollar?


Check prices in stores.
 
2013-11-27 02:20:02 PM

tricycleracer: Have_Brain: Rapmaster2000: How does one go about finding a objective value for a bitcoin?  Until I can figure that out, I won't be investing though it's always tempting to play the greater fool game.  It's great when you win, but it really sucks when you're the fool.

Right now, I'm much more comfortable playing the greater fool game in speculative equities.

How does one go about finding a objective value for a dollar?

Money is a store of labor.

Be it a dollar or a Klondike bar, you can get someone to do something for it.

What would you do for a Bitcoin?


Anal?
 
2013-11-27 02:21:27 PM

Have_Brain: tricycleracer: Have_Brain: Rapmaster2000: How does one go about finding a objective value for a bitcoin?  Until I can figure that out, I won't be investing though it's always tempting to play the greater fool game.  It's great when you win, but it really sucks when you're the fool.

Right now, I'm much more comfortable playing the greater fool game in speculative equities.

How does one go about finding a objective value for a dollar?

Money is a store of labor.

Be it a dollar or a Klondike bar, you can get someone to do something for it.

What would you do for a Bitcoin?

Anal?


And wouldn't you be really pissed off the next day when the market crashes and you're sitting on an icepack watching Jim Cramer tell you that he's completely surprised?
 
2013-11-27 02:21:34 PM

DarkSoulNoHope: lol. Just seems like the media world wants to appeal to the Hipsters, so they create long phrases with big words which sound intelligent but in reality is just nonsense speak. "Speculative greed" is an actual term (think the oil speculation happening today) but "contemporary utopian cyberlibertarian" is just mouth garbage, spewed out because someone wants to sound smarter than they are.


"contemporary utopian cyberlibertarian" actually means something. It means the modern day libertarians, that one finds on the Internet, who are always going about how we could live in a near Utopian society if the government would stop holding us back.
 
2013-11-27 02:23:09 PM

tricycleracer: Have_Brain: tricycleracer: Have_Brain: Rapmaster2000: How does one go about finding a objective value for a bitcoin?  Until I can figure that out, I won't be investing though it's always tempting to play the greater fool game.  It's great when you win, but it really sucks when you're the fool.

Right now, I'm much more comfortable playing the greater fool game in speculative equities.

How does one go about finding a objective value for a dollar?

Money is a store of labor.

Be it a dollar or a Klondike bar, you can get someone to do something for it.

What would you do for a Bitcoin?

Anal?

And wouldn't you be really pissed off the next day when the market crashes and you're sitting on an icepack watching Jim Cramer tell you that he's completely surprised?


If only I had a bitcoin for every time that'd happened.
 
2013-11-27 02:24:49 PM

Have_Brain: If only I had a bitcoin for every time that'd happened.


That's so meta.
 
2013-11-27 02:27:40 PM

Rapmaster2000: How does one go about finding a objective value for a bitcoin?  Until I can figure that out, I won't be investing though it's always tempting to play the greater fool game.  It's great when you win, but it really sucks when you're the fool.

Right now, I'm much more comfortable playing the greater fool game in speculative equities.


How do you find an objective value for anything? You can't. There's no such thing.

Value by definition is subjective.
 
2013-11-27 02:29:31 PM
Bitcoin investing almost sounds like what baseball card collecting was in the early 1990's. The speculators so dominated the market and jacked up prices, it was ruining it for the collectors who just liked baseball.
 
2013-11-27 02:32:05 PM

heavymetal: Bitcoin investing almost sounds like what baseball card collecting was in the early 1990's. The speculators so dominated the market and jacked up prices, it was ruining it for the collectors who just liked baseball.


I tried putting Bitcoins in my bicycle spokes but my iPhone broke.
 
2013-11-27 02:33:35 PM

tricycleracer: heavymetal: Bitcoin investing almost sounds like what baseball card collecting was in the early 1990's. The speculators so dominated the market and jacked up prices, it was ruining it for the collectors who just liked baseball.

I tried putting Bitcoins in my bicycle spokes but my iPhone broke.


I had a similar experience with my bitcoins at the wishing fountain.
 
2013-11-27 02:34:38 PM
Question: if a bitcoin is worth in excess of $800, how is change made in purchases that are under that?
 
2013-11-27 02:37:04 PM

Have_Brain: Rapmaster2000: How does one go about finding a objective value for a bitcoin?  Until I can figure that out, I won't be investing though it's always tempting to play the greater fool game.  It's great when you win, but it really sucks when you're the fool.

Right now, I'm much more comfortable playing the greater fool game in speculative equities.

How does one go about finding a objective value for a dollar?


I should clarify that I meant not objective, but relative to a dollar.  I understand techniques for determining the relative value of a share of IBM to a dollar or the relative value of a dollar to other fiat currencies and what that might be in the future based on known facts and trends.  Even with gold I can see the retail and industrial uses of the metal and furthermore what it costs to mine it regardless of using it as a hedge against inflation.

This gets me thinking of what is the dollar cost of mining a bitcoin and that might get me a better idea of what one could be willing to pay for it.  It still doesn't tell me why a bitcoin should cost $8 three years ago and over $1000 today.  Perhaps I could see a future increased adoption of it as a currency for transactions, but I already have a basket of currencies that I can convert bitcoins to and use in transactions.

Does anyone know why a bitcoin is selling for $1000?  If someone can answer that with numbers it would go a long way towards justifying speculation - and it is speculation... not that speculation is necessarily a dirty word.  We all do it.
 
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