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(ESPN)   Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine make their debuts on the Hall of Fame ballot. Chicks dig the the 300-game winners   (espn.go.com) divider line 112
    More: Spiffy, Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux, Hall of Fames, Moises Alou, Jeff Bagwell, Hall of Fame ballot, Big Macs, Mike Mussina  
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571 clicks; posted to Sports » on 26 Nov 2013 at 6:50 PM (34 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-26 10:40:13 PM

DeWayne Mann: Just because I laugh every time I think about it. Two pitchers:

Pitcher A:
19 year career. 3256.1IP, 476 starts, 211-144 (.594 W%). 3.28 ERA. 2397 K. 6 time all-star, never finished better than 2nd in Cy Voting. 4.19 ERA in 13 postseason starts, 5-5 record.

Pitcher B:
18 year career. 3824.0, 527 starts, 254-186(.577 W%). 3.90 ERA. 2478 K. 5 time all-star, never finished better than 3rd in Cy Voting. 3.80 ERA in 13 postseason starts (and 1 relief appearance), 7-4 record.

You'll note I only used stats that I assume typical HOF voters look at.

Guess which one got 2.1% of the vote in his first year on the ballot and fell off!


ok, I'm stupid. Who is pitcher A and who is pitcher B?
 
2013-11-26 10:41:46 PM

Hollie Maea: ok, I'm stupid. Who is pitcher A and who is pitcher B?


Kevin Brown & Jack Morris
 
2013-11-26 10:49:02 PM

DeWayne Mann: Hollie Maea: ok, I'm stupid. Who is pitcher A and who is pitcher B?

Kevin Brown & Jack Morris


Thanks.
 
2013-11-26 10:50:29 PM
for the record  i only dropped the guys i knew for certain were taking the juice.   and only bonds and clemmons came to mind at the moment.
 
2013-11-26 10:55:15 PM

rugman11: Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Gregg Maddux
Edgar Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Frank Thomas

I'd be happy with that ballot.


Except the top 3 and two under Galvine/Maddox all used so fark them....
 
2013-11-26 10:55:28 PM

DeWayne Mann: Dafatone: As to pitcher A and pitcher B, the most damning stat is that pitcher A put up a 127 career ERA+ and pitcher B a 105.

Yeah, but 75% of the voters don't know what that is and become violent when encountered with it.


I somehow read "violently ill" and my first thought was, "good."
 
2013-11-26 10:58:45 PM

rugman11: MFAWG: EJ25T: ClavellBCMI: grimlock1972: ClavellBCMI: rugman11: Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Gregg Maddux
Edgar Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Frank Thomas
Jack Morris

I'd be happy with that ballot.

FTFM

refixed it. no steroid users get in .

imokwiththis.jpg

You're totally cool with coke, apparently.

Recreational drugs and steroids are two different things, but not to you.

Apparently.

So what about amphetamines then?  They are banned by MLB as a performance-enhancing drug.  Hall-of-Famers Hank Aaron and Mike Schmidt have admitted to taking them.  Dale Berra testified under oath that he was supplied amphetamines by Hall-of-Famer Willie Stargell.  How can you endorse keeping some PED-users out of the HOF when there are dozens already in there?


Cause you're full of shiat, saying you used them once and didnt like it is not the same as using them over a career.

But you have made this moronic argument in every HOF thread so you obviously support a known steroid user.
 
2013-11-26 10:59:54 PM
When WSB had the broadcast rights to Braves games, they would occasionally do a Power Lunch with a Q&A with some of the players. One told a story about a prank that Maddux pulled.

During the game, Marcus Giles was running from 1st to 2nd and collided with a fielder (I don't remember who) and got knocked out. Giles was on the bench and a few innings later starts to come to and looks at Maddux and says "Why did Bobby pull me out of the game?"
Maddux: You don't remember?
Giles: Remember what?
Maddux: You peed your pants, Bobby had to pull you.
Giles: I DID WHAT?!?!?!
 
2013-11-26 11:14:01 PM

Bubblegum Tate: DeWayne Mann: Just because I laugh every time I think about it. Two pitchers:

Pitcher A:
19 year career. 3256.1IP, 476 starts, 211-144 (.594 W%). 3.28 ERA. 2397 K. 6 time all-star, never finished better than 2nd in Cy Voting. 4.19 ERA in 13 postseason starts, 5-5 record.

Pitcher B:
18 year career. 3824.0, 527 starts, 254-186(.577 W%). 3.90 ERA. 2478 K. 5 time all-star, never finished better than 3rd in Cy Voting. 3.80 ERA in 13 postseason starts (and 1 relief appearance), 7-4 record.

You'll note I only used stats that I assume typical HOF voters look at.

Guess which one got 2.1% of the vote in his first year on the ballot and fell off!

similarly, I thought it was criminal Kenny Lofton only lasted 1 year on the ballot.  He's probably not a HOFer, but you could have made a case.  He deserved more than 5% of the vote.


No he didnt, he was good for maybe 5-6 years after that he is maybe an afterthought for the HOF and that is it.
 
2013-11-26 11:19:02 PM

steamingpile: rugman11: MFAWG: EJ25T: ClavellBCMI: grimlock1972: ClavellBCMI: rugman11: Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Gregg Maddux
Edgar Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Frank Thomas
Jack Morris

I'd be happy with that ballot.

FTFM

refixed it. no steroid users get in .

imokwiththis.jpg

You're totally cool with coke, apparently.

Recreational drugs and steroids are two different things, but not to you.

Apparently.

So what about amphetamines then?  They are banned by MLB as a performance-enhancing drug.  Hall-of-Famers Hank Aaron and Mike Schmidt have admitted to taking them.  Dale Berra testified under oath that he was supplied amphetamines by Hall-of-Famer Willie Stargell.  How can you endorse keeping some PED-users out of the HOF when there are dozens already in there?

Cause you're full of shiat, saying you used them once and didnt like it is not the same as using them over a career.

But you have made this moronic argument in every HOF thread so you obviously support a known steroid user.



Well, I'm a Twins fan, so I really don't have any dog in this fight.  I just don't like that people are getting all self-righteous about steroids after ignoring PEDS for the entire life of baseball until 2005.  It happened.  It's part of the history of the game.  We're not tearing down the record books to erase these guys.  Clemens and Bonds are two of the best players in the history of the game.  Did they get a boost from PEDs?  Probably.  But we're not taking away their World Series rings.  The Hall of Fame is about celebrating baseball, all of baseball, and keeping these guys out isn't change what happened.

And why are you so willing to take Hank Aaron's word that he only used greenies "once"?  As far as I know, Biggio and Edgar Martinez have never tested positive for nor even been accused of using steroids by anybody credible.  Yet you won't take their word and are willing to, as you so eloquently put it, "fark them"?  How does that work?
 
2013-11-26 11:30:33 PM

rugman11: And why are you so willing to take Hank Aaron's word that he only used greenies "once"?  As far as I know, Biggio and Edgar Martinez have never tested positive for nor even been accused of using steroids by anybody credible.  Yet you won't take their word and are willing to, as you so eloquently put it, "fark them"?  How does that work?


It's steamingpile, bro. He's the #hotsportstake of posting, but with an extreme dose of Atlanta homerism.
 
2013-11-26 11:37:01 PM

steamingpile: Bubblegum Tate: DeWayne Mann: Just because I laugh every time I think about it. Two pitchers:

Pitcher A:
19 year career. 3256.1IP, 476 starts, 211-144 (.594 W%). 3.28 ERA. 2397 K. 6 time all-star, never finished better than 2nd in Cy Voting. 4.19 ERA in 13 postseason starts, 5-5 record.

Pitcher B:
18 year career. 3824.0, 527 starts, 254-186(.577 W%). 3.90 ERA. 2478 K. 5 time all-star, never finished better than 3rd in Cy Voting. 3.80 ERA in 13 postseason starts (and 1 relief appearance), 7-4 record.

You'll note I only used stats that I assume typical HOF voters look at.

Guess which one got 2.1% of the vote in his first year on the ballot and fell off!

similarly, I thought it was criminal Kenny Lofton only lasted 1 year on the ballot.  He's probably not a HOFer, but you could have made a case.  He deserved more than 5% of the vote.

No he didnt, he was good for maybe 5-6 years after that he is maybe an afterthought for the HOF and that is it.


He was really good for eight years (92 to 99).  Keep in mind he played great defense in center.  For those eight years, he hit 311, obp of 387, averaged 54 bases a year (and caught 13 times) and 105 runs.

Then he was pretty solid for another eight years, from 2000 to 2007.  That second stretch of player hit 287 with an obp of 357, stole 24 bases a year (caught 5 times) and scored 84 runs.

For his career, he managed a respectable 423 slugging percentage and had 116 triples.  I'm not sure if he's Hall of Fame worthy, but he's much more than an afterthought.

But he didn't hit home runs, and if you want to get in as a position player since 1980, you have to hit home runs or be Ozzie Smith, everything else be damned.

/actually, he did hit 130 homers.
 
2013-11-26 11:39:54 PM

FriarReb98: exick: If that happens this year with Maddux and Glavine on the ballot, then there's something way the fark wrong with the system.

There already is.  There's tons wrong, but none of it is fixable.  Mostly because the BBWAA and the Hall executive committee are petty, self-important douchebags who are actively trying to turn the BHOF into the RRHOF.

Personally, and I've said this before, so if you remember, bear with me for the noobs, there should be levels of the HOF.  Kinda like the idea of graduating cum laude, magna cum laude & summa cum laude.  Players like the Babe, Cy, Nolan Ryan, Hank, Ted etc. get highest honors; players like Bench, Yaz, Musial & Kaline get high honors, and players like 90% of the pre-1900 group, Santo & Rice get just plain old "in the HOF."  Would there be biatching? Hell ya, because that's what we baseball fans do.  But there'd be much, much less.  You could even do a reranking every 10 or 20 years to make things more interesting.


How does Musial NOT get "highest" honors, while Ryan does?
 
2013-11-26 11:40:05 PM
Biggio and Bagwell, both!
 
2013-11-26 11:52:13 PM
Looking at the full ballot, I feel Bonds, Clemens, Maddux, Mussina, Glavine, Schilling, Bagwell, Thomas, Palmeiro, Trammell, Raines, E. Martinez, Biggio, McGwire, Piazza, Sosa, Kent, L. Smith all should be in. That's 18 freaking guys. You can only vote for 10. My ten if I had a vote would be
Maddux
Glavine
Biggio
Thomas
Piazza
Trammell
Smith
Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens

I also feel Walker, McGriff, Morris, Mattingly and Nomo all deserve pretty serious consideration. The rest on the ballot should be one and dones.
Regarding the veterans ballot, I feel Torre, Simmons (WHY IS SIMMONS NOT ALREADY IN), Cox and LaRussa all should be in. I would not vote for the others, but they are all pretty deserving of serious consideration.

Link to the full ballots full of stats at baseball-reference:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2014.shtml#BBWAA
 
2013-11-26 11:54:20 PM
Maddux once pitched a complete game and threw under 80 pitches in it.

Welcome to the Hall of Fame, bud.
 
2013-11-26 11:54:27 PM

Prairie Phoenix: FriarReb98: exick: If that happens this year with Maddux and Glavine on the ballot, then there's something way the fark wrong with the system.

There already is.  There's tons wrong, but none of it is fixable.  Mostly because the BBWAA and the Hall executive committee are petty, self-important douchebags who are actively trying to turn the BHOF into the RRHOF.

Personally, and I've said this before, so if you remember, bear with me for the noobs, there should be levels of the HOF.  Kinda like the idea of graduating cum laude, magna cum laude & summa cum laude.  Players like the Babe, Cy, Nolan Ryan, Hank, Ted etc. get highest honors; players like Bench, Yaz, Musial & Kaline get high honors, and players like 90% of the pre-1900 group, Santo & Rice get just plain old "in the HOF."  Would there be biatching? Hell ya, because that's what we baseball fans do.  But there'd be much, much less.  You could even do a reranking every 10 or 20 years to make things more interesting.

How does Musial NOT get "highest" honors, while Ryan does?


Because Musial is hilariously underrated.
 
2013-11-26 11:59:01 PM

toddism: I used to love going to Braves games when Maddux pitched.  89 pitches.  67 strikes.  Hour and a Half.  That was baseball.


Didn't they play one once that was over in less than an hour? shiat, he should be given the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
 
2013-11-27 12:05:44 AM
BASEBALL CARDS by Dan Quisenberry (1953-98)

that first baseball card I saw myself
in a triage of rookies
atop the bodies
that made the hill
we played king of
I am the older one
the one on the right
game-face sincere
long red hair unkempt
a symbol of the 70's
somehow a sign of manhood
you don't see
how my knees shook on my debut
or my desperation to make it

the second one I look boyish with a gap-toothed smile
the smile of a guy who has it his way
expects it
I rode the wave's crest
of pennant and trophies
I sat relaxed with one thought
"I can do this"
you don't see
me stay up till two reigning in nerves
or post-game hands that shook involuntarily

glory years catch action shots
arm whips and body contortions
a human catapult
the backs of those cards
cite numbers
that tell stories of saves, wins, flags, records
handshakes, butt slaps, celebration mobs
you can't see
the cost of winning
lines on my forehead under the hat
trench line between my eyes
you don't see my wife, daughter and son left behind

the last few cards
I do not smile
I grim-face the camera
tight lipped
no more forced poses to win fans
eyes squint
scanning distance
crow's-feet turn into eagle's claws
you don't see
the quiver in my heart
knowledge that it is over
just playing out the end

I look back
at who I thought I was
or used to be
now, trying to be funny
I tell folks
I used to be famous
I used to be good
they say
we thought you were bigger
I say
I was
 
2013-11-27 12:30:40 AM

Jack_Knopf: Just wish Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, and Cox could go in together.  They didn't win the number of rings they should have, but that group was uber special.


There's something I like about this comment. Oh, it's everything. That era probably made me a Braves fan for life. Yes, it's disappointing the rings they didn't get, but I love the way those 4 individuals impacted the game and I'd love to see all 4 in the HOF.
 
2013-11-27 12:39:42 AM
I'm not saying Morris deserves to be in the hall and I hate to be a small market whiner, but if Morris pitches that 10 inning shutout in game 7 for New York or Boston he'd be in the hall right now. Because the system sucks.
 
2013-11-27 12:51:59 AM
Maddux was absolutely filthy. That is all.
 
2013-11-27 12:52:41 AM

MFAWG: EJ25T: ClavellBCMI: grimlock1972: ClavellBCMI: rugman11: Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Gregg Maddux
Edgar Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Frank Thomas
Jack Morris

I'd be happy with that ballot.

FTFM

refixed it. no steroid users get in .

imokwiththis.jpg

You're totally cool with coke, apparently.

Recreational drugs and steroids are two different things, but not to you.

Apparently.


Coke isn't performance enhancing? You ever try to catch a crackhead stealing a base?

cdn.tss.uproxx.com

You ain't catchin' no crackhead...
 
2013-11-27 01:11:23 AM

rugman11: steamingpile: rugman11: MFAWG: EJ25T: ClavellBCMI: grimlock1972: ClavellBCMI: rugman11: Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Gregg Maddux
Edgar Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Frank Thomas
Jack Morris

I'd be happy with that ballot.

FTFM

refixed it. no steroid users get in .

imokwiththis.jpg

You're totally cool with coke, apparently.

Recreational drugs and steroids are two different things, but not to you.

Apparently.

So what about amphetamines then?  They are banned by MLB as a performance-enhancing drug.  Hall-of-Famers Hank Aaron and Mike Schmidt have admitted to taking them.  Dale Berra testified under oath that he was supplied amphetamines by Hall-of-Famer Willie Stargell.  How can you endorse keeping some PED-users out of the HOF when there are dozens already in there?

Cause you're full of shiat, saying you used them once and didnt like it is not the same as using them over a career.

But you have made this moronic argument in every HOF thread so you obviously support a known steroid user.


Well, I'm a Twins fan, so I really don't have any dog in this fight.  I just don't like that people are getting all self-righteous about steroids after ignoring PEDS for the entire life of baseball until 2005.  It happened.  It's part of the history of the game.  We're not tearing down the record books to erase these guys.  Clemens and Bonds are two of the best players in the history of the game.  Did they get a boost from PEDs?  Probably.  But we're not taking away their World Series rings.  The Hall of Fame is about celebrating baseball, all of baseball, and keeping these guys out isn't change what happened.

And why are you so willing to take Hank Aaron's word that he only used greenies "once"?  As far as I know, Biggio and Edgar Martinez have never tested positive for nor even been accused of using steroids by anybody credible.  Yet you won't take their word and are willing to, as you so eloquently put it, "fark them"?  How does that work?


Simple sight, Aaron didnt swell up to Arnold size during his career and you're an idiot if you think speed is even remotely close to the same category as steroids. But we've come to expect that from you in baseball threads, just accept the players you named cheated at life and move on.
 
2013-11-27 01:14:05 AM

Dafatone: steamingpile: Bubblegum Tate: DeWayne Mann: Just because I laugh every time I think about it. Two pitchers:

Pitcher A:
19 year career. 3256.1IP, 476 starts, 211-144 (.594 W%). 3.28 ERA. 2397 K. 6 time all-star, never finished better than 2nd in Cy Voting. 4.19 ERA in 13 postseason starts, 5-5 record.

Pitcher B:
18 year career. 3824.0, 527 starts, 254-186(.577 W%). 3.90 ERA. 2478 K. 5 time all-star, never finished better than 3rd in Cy Voting. 3.80 ERA in 13 postseason starts (and 1 relief appearance), 7-4 record.

You'll note I only used stats that I assume typical HOF voters look at.

Guess which one got 2.1% of the vote in his first year on the ballot and fell off!

similarly, I thought it was criminal Kenny Lofton only lasted 1 year on the ballot.  He's probably not a HOFer, but you could have made a case.  He deserved more than 5% of the vote.

No he didnt, he was good for maybe 5-6 years after that he is maybe an afterthought for the HOF and that is it.

He was really good for eight years (92 to 99).  Keep in mind he played great defense in center.  For those eight years, he hit 311, obp of 387, averaged 54 bases a year (and caught 13 times) and 105 runs.

Then he was pretty solid for another eight years, from 2000 to 2007.  That second stretch of player hit 287 with an obp of 357, stole 24 bases a year (caught 5 times) and scored 84 runs.

For his career, he managed a respectable 423 slugging percentage and had 116 triples.  I'm not sure if he's Hall of Fame worthy, but he's much more than an afterthought.

But he didn't hit home runs, and if you want to get in as a position player since 1980, you have to hit home runs or be Ozzie Smith, everything else be damned.

/actually, he did hit 130 homers.


Ok maybe more than a mention but solid player does not equal HOF.

He was good but he was not the standout fielder that Ozzie was, he was maybe 3rd or 4th best when he played and maybe top 50 all time. Maybe.
 
2013-11-27 01:16:06 AM

steamingpile: rugman11: steamingpile: rugman11: MFAWG: EJ25T: ClavellBCMI: grimlock1972: ClavellBCMI: rugman11: Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Gregg Maddux
Edgar Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Frank Thomas
Jack Morris

I'd be happy with that ballot.

FTFM

refixed it. no steroid users get in .

imokwiththis.jpg

You're totally cool with coke, apparently.

Recreational drugs and steroids are two different things, but not to you.

Apparently.

So what about amphetamines then?  They are banned by MLB as a performance-enhancing drug.  Hall-of-Famers Hank Aaron and Mike Schmidt have admitted to taking them.  Dale Berra testified under oath that he was supplied amphetamines by Hall-of-Famer Willie Stargell.  How can you endorse keeping some PED-users out of the HOF when there are dozens already in there?

Cause you're full of shiat, saying you used them once and didnt like it is not the same as using them over a career.

But you have made this moronic argument in every HOF thread so you obviously support a known steroid user.


Well, I'm a Twins fan, so I really don't have any dog in this fight.  I just don't like that people are getting all self-righteous about steroids after ignoring PEDS for the entire life of baseball until 2005.  It happened.  It's part of the history of the game.  We're not tearing down the record books to erase these guys.  Clemens and Bonds are two of the best players in the history of the game.  Did they get a boost from PEDs?  Probably.  But we're not taking away their World Series rings.  The Hall of Fame is about celebrating baseball, all of baseball, and keeping these guys out isn't change what happened.

And why are you so willing to take Hank Aaron's word that he only used greenies "once"?  As far as I know, Biggio and Edgar Martinez have never tested positive for nor even been accused of using steroids by anybody credible.  Yet you won't take their word and are willing to, as you so eloquently put it, "fark them"?  How doe ...


Why did the subject get changed?

The original statement was about cocaine. That's a recreational drug that's destroyed more than a few careers. That's a completely different animal than steroids or amphetamines.
 
2013-11-27 01:20:31 AM
Growing up, Maddux and Glavine were two of my favorite pitchers.  I liked them because they didn't throw hard and neither could I.
 
2013-11-27 01:46:58 AM
"Hey, have you guys seen Mark?"
 
2013-11-27 02:23:39 AM
First off, people did get into the Hall. Hank O'Day, Jacob Ruppert and Deacon White got in.

Second, people on the BBWAA ballot will get in this year. It's a less steroid-y group this time. Biggio ought to cover the gap to 75% because when you get that close, the writers tend to line up behind you to get you over the top. Maddux will be a first-balloter. Then things may get a little crowded. I can't imagine four writers' candidates getting in in the same year right now, so either Thomas or Glavine will probably come up short. I think Morris misses now, he'll come agonizingly short, but the Veterans' Committee puts him in without too much longer of an additional wait.

My fantasy ballot: Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Piazza, Bagwell, Martinez, Raines, Trammell.
 
2013-11-27 02:35:38 AM
(checks)

The last year that four players made it in off the BBWAA ballot was 1955, when they elected Dazzy Vance, Ted Lyons, Gabby Hartnett and Joe DiMaggio. It was also one of three years total in which that happened; the others are 1947 (Carl Hubbell, Lefty Grove, Frankie Frisch, Mickey Cochrane) and 1936 (the inaugural class).

Last three years in which the writers put in three: 1999 (Robin Yount, Nolan Ryan, George Brett), 1991 (Gaylord Perry, Fergie Jenkins, Rod Carew), 1984 (Harmon Killebrew, Don Drysdale, Luis Aparacio).

So, three is feasible, but don't expect four inductees from the writers no matter how deep the ballot.
 
2013-11-27 02:57:53 AM
Love him or hate him, but George Steinbrenner belongs in the Hall of Fame.
 
2013-11-27 03:15:42 AM

Jayseauxfocci: Jack_Knopf: Just wish Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, and Cox could go in together.  They didn't win the number of rings they should have, but that group was uber special.

There's something I like about this comment. Oh, it's everything. That era probably made me a Braves fan for life. Yes, it's disappointing the rings they didn't get, but I love the way those 4 individuals impacted the game and I'd love to see all 4 in the HOF.


Yeah, it'd be a cool gesture. Growing up in Montreal, I absolutely HATED that group of pitchers.
 
2013-11-27 03:40:39 AM
Any hall of fame that doesn't have Trammel and Whitiker in it is no hall of fame.
 
2013-11-27 04:33:35 AM

WhyteRaven74: Maddux is a lock, he's one of the best pitchers ever, not just the best of his generation. Glavine was more than good enough for long enough to get in on his first ballot.


This. I'm not a huge Baseball fan, but those were two guys I would watch a game for. Incredibly good in their prime, and both deserve to be first-ballot HOF.
 
2013-11-27 04:56:36 AM

steamingpile: Simple sight, Aaron didnt swell up to Arnold size during his career and

you're an idiot if you think speed is even remotely close to the same category as steroids. But we've come to expect that from you in baseball threads, just accept the players you named cheated at life and move on.

I agree with this, but not for the reasons you posit.  Speed improves the ability of hitters to make contact with the ball, and that's way more of a performance enhancement than roids.  With the juice you still have to make good contact with the ball.
 
2013-11-27 05:19:52 AM
Maddux should be a first balloter. Glavine, being the best lefty of his generation, should get in as well. However, the voting process has become so ridiculous that I wouldn't be surprised if neither of them got in this year. I hope my pessimism is unfounded and at least Maddux gets in.

/not a Braves fan just appreciates masterful pitching that didn't rely on overpowering anybody
 
2013-11-27 05:24:16 AM
MFAWG: exick: Last year, the BBWAA failed for the first time since 1996 to produce any inductees. Craig Biggio came closest to receiving the necessary 75 percent, falling 39 votes shy with 388 (68.2 percent).

If that happens this year with Maddux and Glavine on the ballot, then there's something way the fark wrong with the system.

Nobody will get in on the first ballot, and there is absolutely something very, very wrong with the system.


ANYONE not voting for Maddux should not only have their vote taken away, but should also be flogged and put on public display. If there was ever a case in my lifetime for unanimous first  ballot, its him. He beat the best (and the juiced best) by being a smart player. He didn't blow them away with a freakish braking ball or a 100 mph heater. He was just that damned good at what he did.
 
2013-11-27 05:36:38 AM

topgun4291: When WSB had the broadcast rights to Braves games, they would occasionally do a Power Lunch with a Q&A with some of the players. One told a story about a prank that Maddux pulled.

During the game, Marcus Giles was running from 1st to 2nd and collided with a fielder (I don't remember who) and got knocked out. Giles was on the bench and a few innings later starts to come to and looks at Maddux and says "Why did Bobby pull me out of the game?"
Maddux: You don't remember?
Giles: Remember what?
Maddux: You peed your pants, Bobby had to pull you.
Giles: I DID WHAT?!?!?!



Maddux was apparently notorious prankster, which is a little surprising. My all time favorite story was when he walked up to Andre Dawson (and 3 other guys) in '87 who were sitting in the hot tub. He says something to the effect of "Have you ever seen 3 black guys running from one white guy?" Before Dawson had time to react, he drops his pants and starts taking a leak in the hot tub.
 
2013-11-27 06:01:02 AM

steamingpile: rugman11: steamingpile: rugman11: MFAWG: EJ25T: ClavellBCMI: grimlock1972: ClavellBCMI: rugman11: Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Gregg Maddux
Edgar Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Frank Thomas
Jack Morris

I'd be happy with that ballot.

FTFM

refixed it. no steroid users get in .

imokwiththis.jpg

You're totally cool with coke, apparently.

Recreational drugs and steroids are two different things, but not to you.

Apparently.

So what about amphetamines then?  They are banned by MLB as a performance-enhancing drug.  Hall-of-Famers Hank Aaron and Mike Schmidt have admitted to taking them.  Dale Berra testified under oath that he was supplied amphetamines by Hall-of-Famer Willie Stargell.  How can you endorse keeping some PED-users out of the HOF when there are dozens already in there?

Cause you're full of shiat, saying you used them once and didnt like it is not the same as using them over a career.

But you have made this moronic argument in every HOF thread so you obviously support a known steroid user.


Well, I'm a Twins fan, so I really don't have any dog in this fight.  I just don't like that people are getting all self-righteous about steroids after ignoring PEDS for the entire life of baseball until 2005.  It happened.  It's part of the history of the game.  We're not tearing down the record books to erase these guys.  Clemens and Bonds are two of the best players in the history of the game.  Did they get a boost from PEDs?  Probably.  But we're not taking away their World Series rings.  The Hall of Fame is about celebrating baseball, all of baseball, and keeping these guys out isn't change what happened.

And why are you so willing to take Hank Aaron's word that he only used greenies "once"?  As far as I know, Biggio and Edgar Martinez have never tested positive for nor even been accused of using steroids by anybody credible.  Yet you won't take their word and are willing to, as you so eloquently put it, "fark them"?  How doe ...


Amphetamines do not cause a person to "swell up", so you wouldn't see that..  You are correct about their being categorical difference, however,  amphetamines are much, much worse.  As mentioned above, adding muscle mass will not help one's hand/eye coordination or the ability to hit a ball.  Improved concentration, however, will.  And amphetamines were created specifically to do just that.  Improved concentration over the course of, say 3-5 ABs a game and a 162 game season is going to skew the stats much more than juicing an outfielder.

And not sure where you're getting this notion that Aaron only used greenies once, he has admitted to using them frequently throughout the course of his career.  Even a career of only dabbling in speed is still going to skew stats more than Clemons and Bonds (dickheads though they are) using PEDs at the tail end of their careers.
 
2013-11-27 07:29:08 AM

Prairie Phoenix: FriarReb98: exick: If that happens this year with Maddux and Glavine on the ballot, then there's something way the fark wrong with the system.

There already is.  There's tons wrong, but none of it is fixable.  Mostly because the BBWAA and the Hall executive committee are petty, self-important douchebags who are actively trying to turn the BHOF into the RRHOF.

Personally, and I've said this before, so if you remember, bear with me for the noobs, there should be levels of the HOF.  Kinda like the idea of graduating cum laude, magna cum laude & summa cum laude.  Players like the Babe, Cy, Nolan Ryan, Hank, Ted etc. get highest honors; players like Bench, Yaz, Musial & Kaline get high honors, and players like 90% of the pre-1900 group, Santo & Rice get just plain old "in the HOF."  Would there be biatching? Hell ya, because that's what we baseball fans do.  But there'd be much, much less.  You could even do a reranking every 10 or 20 years to make things more interesting.

How does Musial NOT get "highest" honors, while Ryan does?


Just throwing names out there, was drawing a blank on the middle one to be perfectly honest.
 
2013-11-27 08:18:41 AM
Once saw a game at old Fulton County Stadium where the starting pitchers were Maddux and this young up and comer named Pedro Something-or-other. His brother used to be an ok pitcher for the Dodgers. Anyway, the game was over in something like an hour and twenty minutes.
 
2013-11-27 08:18:42 AM
Too bad Smoltzie hung around a few extra years or we could have had the tri-fecta.
 
2013-11-27 08:39:19 AM

KingKauff: Once saw a game at old Fulton County Stadium where the starting pitchers were Maddux and this young up and comer named Pedro Something-or-other. His brother used to be an ok pitcher for the Dodgers. Anyway, the game was over in something like an hour and twenty minutes.


Best Glavine performance was kind of like that.  Him vs. Hideo Nomo.  Both pitchers went the distance. Glavine threw a one hitter and walked one.  Only problem was they came together and with an error, Nomo won his six hit game 1-0.  Whole game-1:26 from Anthem to Handshake.
 
2013-11-27 08:48:29 AM

Another Government Employee: KingKauff: Once saw a game at old Fulton County Stadium where the starting pitchers were Maddux and this young up and comer named Pedro Something-or-other. His brother used to be an ok pitcher for the Dodgers. Anyway, the game was over in something like an hour and twenty minutes.

Best Glavine performance was kind of like that.  Him vs. Hideo Nomo.  Both pitchers went the distance. Glavine threw a one hitter and walked one.  Only problem was they came together and with an error, Nomo won his six hit game 1-0.  Whole game-1:26 from Anthem to Handshake.


One of my favorite MAddux games was a complete game shutout where he "scattered" eleven hits. All singles.
 
2013-11-27 09:02:52 AM

skeeterjennings: Amphetamines do not cause a person to "swell up", so you wouldn't see that.. You are correct about their being categorical difference, however, amphetamines are much, much worse. As mentioned above, adding muscle mass will not help one's hand/eye coordination or the ability to hit a ball. Improved concentration, however, will. And amphetamines were created specifically to do just that. Improved concentration over the course of, say 3-5 ABs a game and a 162 game season is going to skew the stats much more than juicing an outfielder.

And not sure where you're getting this notion that Aaron only used greenies once, he has admitted to using them frequently throughout the course of his career. Even a career of only dabbling in speed is still going to skew stats more than Clemons and Bonds (dickheads though they are) using PEDs at the tail end of their careers.


Thanks, guys, for covering this while I was asleep.  I'll just add this from a Primary Care study published this summer.

"Amphetamines and caffeine are stimulants that increase alertness, improve focus, decrease reaction time, and delay fatigue, allowing for an increased intensity and duration of training...

Physiologic and performance effects
 • Amphetamines increase dopamine/norepinephrine release and inhibit their reuptake, leading to central nervous system (CNS) stimulation
 • Amphetamines seem to enhance athletic performance in anaerobic conditions
 • Improved reaction time
 • Increased muscle strength and delayed muscle fatigue
 • Increased acceleration

 • Increased alertness and attention to task"
 
2013-11-27 09:25:02 AM

HeathenHealer: I'm not saying Morris deserves to be in the hall and I hate to be a small market whiner, but if Morris pitches that 10 inning shutout in game 7 for New York or Boston he'd be in the hall right now. Because the system sucks.


And if they lose 1-0 almost no one supports his inane candidacy. Can we induct the guy who switched the fans from out to in at the metrodome too?
 
2013-11-27 09:43:42 AM

Gosling: First off, people did get into the Hall. Hank O'Day, Jacob Ruppert and Deacon White got in.

Second, people on the BBWAA ballot will get in this year. It's a less steroid-y group this time. Biggio ought to cover the gap to 75% because when you get that close, the writers tend to line up behind you to get you over the top. Maddux will be a first-balloter. Then things may get a little crowded. I can't imagine four writers' candidates getting in in the same year right now, so either Thomas or Glavine will probably come up short. I think Morris misses now, he'll come agonizingly short, but the Veterans' Committee puts him in without too much longer of an additional wait.

My fantasy ballot: Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Piazza, Bagwell, Martinez, Raines, Trammell.


I think the writers want to put both pitchers in on the same ballot and smoltz as well, even if they didnt win a ton of WS they were still dominant in the 90s. All three should have gone in together would have been a once in a lifetime experience.
 
2013-11-27 09:53:07 AM

loooongview1: steamingpile: Simple sight, Aaron didnt swell up to Arnold size during his career and you're an idiot if you think speed is even remotely close to the same category as steroids. But we've come to expect that from you in baseball threads, just accept the players you named cheated at life and move on.

I agree with this, but not for the reasons you posit.  Speed improves the ability of hitters to make contact with the ball, and that's way more of a performance enhancement than roids.  With the juice you still have to make good contact with the ball.


In the 70s when Aaron admitted he used once? No it wasnt nearly the same it made you very jittery and was mainly used to cover up hangovers.

In the 80s they tweaked steroids and they worked better on fast twitch muscles, as Ben Johnson showed while winning gold medals.

Now mentioning adderal would be close since they were a tweaked version of speed in the 90s but those weren't available during Aaron's playing days. Still after reading the testing policies then people are an idiot if they get caught, it was posted in one of these threads earlier that they only test for elevated test levels and not masking agents. That makes any test irrelevant and highly unlikely to catch a careful or wealthy user.
 
2013-11-27 10:03:11 AM

Night Night Cream Puff: Maddux should be a first balloter. Glavine, being the best lefty of his generation, should get in as well. However, the voting process has become so ridiculous that I wouldn't be surprised if neither of them got in this year. I hope my pessimism is unfounded and at least Maddux gets in.

/not a Braves fan just appreciates masterful pitching that didn't rely on overpowering anybody


I'm not sure I would call Glavine a better lefty than Johnson.
 
2013-11-27 10:27:21 AM

steamingpile: loooongview1: steamingpile: Simple sight, Aaron didnt swell up to Arnold size during his career and you're an idiot if you think speed is even remotely close to the same category as steroids. But we've come to expect that from you in baseball threads, just accept the players you named cheated at life and move on.

I agree with this, but not for the reasons you posit.  Speed improves the ability of hitters to make contact with the ball, and that's way more of a performance enhancement than roids.  With the juice you still have to make good contact with the ball.

In the 70s when Aaron admitted he used once? No it wasnt nearly the same it made you very jittery and was mainly used to cover up hangovers.

In the 80s they tweaked steroids and they worked better on fast twitch muscles, as Ben Johnson showed while winning gold medals.

Now mentioning adderal would be close since they were a tweaked version of speed in the 90s but those weren't available during Aaron's playing days. Still after reading the testing policies then people are an idiot if they get caught, it was posted in one of these threads earlier that they only test for elevated test levels and not masking agents. That makes any test irrelevant and highly unlikely to catch a careful or wealthy user.


So some PEDs are ok but others aren't? What about LASIK? That would help more than steroids for a guy with poor vision
 
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