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(Digital Journal)   One good reason to look forward to Christmas - the annual Doctor Who Christmas episode   (digitaljournal.com) divider line 143
    More: Misc, Christmas episode, Doctor Who, physicians, Peter Capaldi, sci-fi tv show, Weeping Angels, Cybermen, William Hartnell  
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1533 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 26 Nov 2013 at 1:12 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-26 12:43:26 PM  
yep.


We need a story about this?
 
2013-11-26 01:07:52 PM  
Dammit, they're bringing back the Weeping Angels. I was really hoping Moffat would quit dredging the bottom of that well.

/been really happy with everything he's done except for making some of the most boring episodes with those things
 
2013-11-26 01:20:37 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: yep.


We need a story about this?


Sure! Why not?
 
2013-11-26 01:20:41 PM  
Goodbye hyper Fez doctor.

Hello foul-mouthed Scotsman.
 
2013-11-26 01:22:49 PM  

UNC_Samurai: Dammit, they're bringing back the Weeping Angels. I was really hoping Moffat would quit dredging the bottom of that well.

/been really happy with everything he's done except for making some of the most boring episodes with those things


The whole thing's been spoilered in detail.  I guess you should know that the Angels show up but not much.
 
2013-11-26 01:26:06 PM  

KawaiiNot: Sure! Why not?


I guess we could use this as an opportunity to post Clara pictures.

img34.imageshack.us


mmmmm barmaid Clara.....
 
2013-11-26 01:28:12 PM  
This is the Brit show that I prefer at Christmas....

/Tradition in my house
 
2013-11-26 01:29:00 PM  
bah.. teach me to not preview....

www.extafilm.com

/Tradition in my house
 
2013-11-26 01:29:42 PM  
Can't wait to see it.  Sounds like it's going to be very, very good- although not really filled with Christmas cheer.
 
2013-11-26 01:30:31 PM  
Science fiction and Christmas? Will we ever learn?

img.fark.net
 
2013-11-26 01:36:39 PM  

UNC_Samurai: Dammit, they're bringing back the Weeping Angels. I was really hoping Moffat would quit dredging the bottom of that well.

/been really happy with everything he's done except for making some of the most boring episodes with those things


Moffat had a decent start, but I'm not liking his direction now. In my opinion, he's sacrificing the moments and individual episodes for flash and bang long arcs. Last season was the worst of the NuWho, and the season before was pretty shaky.
 
2013-11-26 01:38:34 PM  

edmo: Science fiction and Christmas? Will we ever learn?


Based on how good the last DW Christmas specials were I'd say, yes.
 
2013-11-26 01:42:22 PM  

UNC_Samurai: Dammit, they're bringing back the Weeping Angels. I was really hoping Moffat would quit dredging the bottom of that well.

/been really happy with everything he's done except for making some of the most boring episodes with those things


Are you serious? The Weeping Angels are brilliant monsters! Except for the giant angel in Angels Take Manhattan
 
2013-11-26 01:49:57 PM  
I'm really looking forward to the Capaldi doctor.  The cameo in the 50th was just perfect.  He does not look like a happy Doctor.  So far we've had Denial Doctor (Eccleston), Regret Doctor (Tennant), and Manic Doctor (Smith).  Time for Grumpy Doctor.
 
2013-11-26 01:52:55 PM  

Dr. Whoof: I'm really looking forward to the Capaldi doctor.  The cameo in the 50th was just perfect.  He does not look like a happy Doctor.  So far we've had Denial Doctor (Eccleston), Regret Doctor (Tennant), and Manic Doctor (Smith).  Time for Grumpy Doctor.


Dear god, I hope we don't get a Colin Baker rehash.
 
2013-11-26 02:00:41 PM  

TigerzDad: UNC_Samurai: Dammit, they're bringing back the Weeping Angels. I was really hoping Moffat would quit dredging the bottom of that well.

/been really happy with everything he's done except for making some of the most boring episodes with those things

Are you serious? The Weeping Angels are brilliant monsters! Except for the giant angel in Angels Take Manhattan


Blink was a great episode, but you can only use a monster like that but so often.  And Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone might have been a decent episode if it hadn't been a two-parter.  But it was like watching paint dry.   And Angels Take Manhattan isn't as bad, but they've still given that particular monster way too much attention for what they are - a one-dimensional monster better suited for a horror movie.

And while Doctor Who may be a scary kids' show, it appeals to a broader audience by being a smart show.  As Sydney Newman once said, he didn't want "bug-eyed monsters or robots", and that's what the Weeping Angels are - they're bug-eyed monsters that work purely off primal fears, and I find it boring.   There's no dialogue unless they shoehorn it in (like Flesh and Stone), so the Doctor can't engage them and play with their minds like he can with the Daleks, Cybermen, or Sontarans.  The bulk of the episode turns into running away and characters trying not to close their eyes for fear of the bug-stone-eyed monster jumping out of the dark.  Yawn.
 
2013-11-26 02:01:12 PM  
TigerzDad:
Are you serious? The Weeping Angels are were brilliant monsters! Except for the giant angel in Angels Take Manhattan

Blink was amazing. Every appearance since has simply watered their impact down. If we never see them again, it would be for the best.
 
2013-11-26 02:04:23 PM  

Magruda: Dr. Whoof: I'm really looking forward to the Capaldi doctor.  The cameo in the 50th was just perfect.  He does not look like a happy Doctor.  So far we've had Denial Doctor (Eccleston), Regret Doctor (Tennant), and Manic Doctor (Smith).  Time for Grumpy Doctor.

Dear god, I hope we don't get a Colin Baker rehash.


Matt Smith had a lot of Troughton in his character, which makes me think Capaldi will come off more like Pertwee than Colin Baker - aloof and a bit testy, but not outright irritated at having to acknowledge the existence of other people.
 
2013-11-26 02:17:57 PM  
Clara is bringing the Christmas goose!

i.imgur.comi.imgur.com

 
2013-11-26 02:20:23 PM  

UNC_Samurai: Matt Smith had a lot of Troughton in his character, which makes me think Capaldi will come off more like Pertwee than Colin Baker - aloof and a bit testy, but not outright irritated at having to acknowledge the existence of other people.


I'm thinking a little Hartnell. One of my favorite bits that appears in the Doctor's character from time to time is how he expects- no,  demands- the best from humanity. When he doesn't get it, he becomes cranky.
 
2013-11-26 02:20:43 PM  

UNC_Samurai: TigerzDad: UNC_Samurai: Dammit, they're bringing back the Weeping Angels. I was really hoping Moffat would quit dredging the bottom of that well.

/been really happy with everything he's done except for making some of the most boring episodes with those things

Are you serious? The Weeping Angels are brilliant monsters! Except for the giant angel in Angels Take Manhattan

Blink was a great episode, but you can only use a monster like that but so often.  And Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone might have been a decent episode if it hadn't been a two-parter.  But it was like watching paint dry.   And Angels Take Manhattan isn't as bad, but they've still given that particular monster way too much attention for what they are - a one-dimensional monster better suited for a horror movie.

And while Doctor Who may be a scary kids' show, it appeals to a broader audience by being a smart show.  As Sydney Newman once said, he didn't want "bug-eyed monsters or robots", and that's what the Weeping Angels are - they're bug-eyed monsters that work purely off primal fears, and I find it boring.   There's no dialogue unless they shoehorn it in (like Flesh and Stone), so the Doctor can't engage them and play with their minds like he can with the Daleks, Cybermen, or Sontarans.  The bulk of the episode turns into running away and characters trying not to close their eyes for fear of the bug-stone-eyed monster jumping out of the dark.  Yawn.


Not to mention how every time they appear the rules change. Moffat is sloppy.
 
2013-11-26 02:21:42 PM  

UNC_Samurai: Magruda: Dr. Whoof: I'm really looking forward to the Capaldi doctor.  The cameo in the 50th was just perfect.  He does not look like a happy Doctor.  So far we've had Denial Doctor (Eccleston), Regret Doctor (Tennant), and Manic Doctor (Smith).  Time for Grumpy Doctor.

Dear god, I hope we don't get a Colin Baker rehash.

Matt Smith had a lot of Troughton in his character, which makes me think Capaldi will come off more like Pertwee than Colin Baker - aloof and a bit testy, but not outright irritated at having to acknowledge the existence of other people.



Maybe I should revisit Colin Baker as now that I am old and am outright irritated at having to acknowledge the existence of other people.

/I have been in customer service for far too long
 
2013-11-26 02:22:53 PM  

UNC_Samurai: Magruda: Dr. Whoof: I'm really looking forward to the Capaldi doctor.  The cameo in the 50th was just perfect.  He does not look like a happy Doctor.  So far we've had Denial Doctor (Eccleston), Regret Doctor (Tennant), and Manic Doctor (Smith).  Time for Grumpy Doctor.

Dear god, I hope we don't get a Colin Baker rehash.

Matt Smith had a lot of Troughton in his character, which makes me think Capaldi will come off more like Pertwee than Colin Baker - aloof and a bit testy, but not outright irritated at having to acknowledge the existence of other people.


So your theory is that they're just going to keep paying homage in chronological order? that makes no sense.
 
2013-11-26 02:26:54 PM  

TigerzDad: UNC_Samurai: Dammit, they're bringing back the Weeping Angels. I was really hoping Moffat would quit dredging the bottom of that well.

/been really happy with everything he's done except for making some of the most boring episodes with those things

Are you serious? The Weeping Angels are brilliant monsters! Except for the giant angel in Angels Take Manhattan


When I saw the poster, I thought: ah, geez, not the Angels again.  And certainly not the Cybermen, unless they're actually going to be fearsome at some point in time (rather, than, you know, being defeated by love and running in slo mo).  The Angels, like River, Amy Pond, and the sonic, have been horrible overexposed during Moffat's run.

Think about the Angels.  We no longer know who/what they are: are they parasites who feed off of energy?  Are they a malevolent force that wants to kill the Doctor?  Do they break people's necks?  Can they infect people via videotape?  Every new episode dilutes their impact, especially when the appearances are one off thrills that don't have much plotting other than to say "hey, the Angels are here!  Don't worry about the details!"
 
2013-11-26 02:27:14 PM  

UNC_Samurai: Magruda: Dr. Whoof: I'm really looking forward to the Capaldi doctor.  The cameo in the 50th was just perfect.  He does not look like a happy Doctor.  So far we've had Denial Doctor (Eccleston), Regret Doctor (Tennant), and Manic Doctor (Smith).  Time for Grumpy Doctor.

Dear god, I hope we don't get a Colin Baker rehash.

Matt Smith had a lot of Troughton in his character, which makes me think Capaldi will come off more like Pertwee than Colin Baker - aloof and a bit testy, but not outright irritated at having to acknowledge the existence of other people.


And Tennant modeled his doctor off of Davidson. I doubt they will just rehash in order like that.
 
2013-11-26 02:51:36 PM  

Magruda: UNC_Samurai: Magruda: Dr. Whoof: I'm really looking forward to the Capaldi doctor.  The cameo in the 50th was just perfect.  He does not look like a happy Doctor.  So far we've had Denial Doctor (Eccleston), Regret Doctor (Tennant), and Manic Doctor (Smith).  Time for Grumpy Doctor.

Dear god, I hope we don't get a Colin Baker rehash.

Matt Smith had a lot of Troughton in his character, which makes me think Capaldi will come off more like Pertwee than Colin Baker - aloof and a bit testy, but not outright irritated at having to acknowledge the existence of other people.

And Tennant modeled his doctor off of Davidson. I doubt they will just rehash in order like that.



Ideally it'll be very original and highly entertaining, but I can kinda imagine Capaldi using Jeremy Brett's Sherlock Holmes as a jumping-off point.
 
2013-11-26 02:57:06 PM  
I'm sorry... I can't find Clara sexy now. Every time I see a picture of her, I hear that milksoppy, treacly, annoying theme song they assigned to her, and it just kills it for me.
 
2013-11-26 03:02:16 PM  

ZeroCorpse: I'm sorry... I can't find Clara sexy now. Every time I see a picture of her, I hear that milksoppy, treacly, annoying theme song they assigned to her, and it just kills it for me.


It's okay.  We'll just add that to her character being bland and pointless as well.
 
2013-11-26 03:06:40 PM  

Wellon Dowd: Clara is bringing the Christmas goose![i.imgur.com image 449x650][i.imgur.com image 605x1132]


I sucked it up last night and took the wife and kid to a 3-D showing of Day of the Doctor. Even though I am no fan of the show I liked the episode (although I think that Eccleston is being a prat not showing up)

And Jenna Coleman makes my souffle rise...
i.dailymail.co.uk
 
2013-11-26 03:24:13 PM  

Hebalo: TigerzDad:
Are you serious? The Weeping Angels are were brilliant monsters! Except for the giant angel in Angels Take Manhattan

Blink was amazing. Every appearance since has simply watered their impact down. If we never see them again, it would be for the best.


Exactly. The Angels were awesome and brilliant and mysterious, and now they suck. River Song was awesome and brilliant and mysterious, and now she sucks. Clara is boring and she sucks and I'm really pissed she's in the 50th because now I'll never escape her.

I'm looking forward to Capaldi. I'm tired of Matt Smith's Doctor, and I'm very tired of Stephen Moffat. I'm looking forward to when Moffat leaves (after this next season, I think?)
 
2013-11-26 03:53:34 PM  

UNC_Samurai: Dammit, they're bringing back the Weeping Angels. I was really hoping Moffat would quit dredging the bottom of that well.

/been really happy with everything he's done except for making some of the most boring episodes with those things


From what I saw in the preview, it's the Cybermen, Daleks, Weeping Angels AND the Silence involved.
 
2013-11-26 03:55:42 PM  

onzmadi: UNC_Samurai: Magruda: Dr. Whoof: I'm really looking forward to the Capaldi doctor.  The cameo in the 50th was just perfect.  He does not look like a happy Doctor.  So far we've had Denial Doctor (Eccleston), Regret Doctor (Tennant), and Manic Doctor (Smith).  Time for Grumpy Doctor.

Dear god, I hope we don't get a Colin Baker rehash.

Matt Smith had a lot of Troughton in his character, which makes me think Capaldi will come off more like Pertwee than Colin Baker - aloof and a bit testy, but not outright irritated at having to acknowledge the existence of other people.


Maybe I should revisit Colin Baker as now that I am old and am outright irritated at having to acknowledge the existence of other people.

/I have been in customer service for far too long


Nah, maybe you should revisit Colin Baker because JNT was trying to sabotage the series.
 
2013-11-26 03:59:28 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: TigerzDad: UNC_Samurai: Dammit, they're bringing back the Weeping Angels. I was really hoping Moffat would quit dredging the bottom of that well.

/been really happy with everything he's done except for making some of the most boring episodes with those things

Are you serious? The Weeping Angels are brilliant monsters! Except for the giant angel in Angels Take Manhattan

When I saw the poster, I thought: ah, geez, not the Angels again.  And certainly not the Cybermen, unless they're actually going to be fearsome at some point in time (rather, than, you know, being defeated by love and running in slo mo).  The Angels, like River, Amy Pond, and the sonic, have been horrible overexposed during Moffat's run.

Think about the Angels.  We no longer know who/what they are: are they parasites who feed off of energy?  Are they a malevolent force that wants to kill the Doctor?  Do they break people's necks?  Can they infect people via videotape?  Every new episode dilutes their impact, especially when the appearances are one off thrills that don't have much plotting other than to say "hey, the Angels are here!  Don't worry about the details!"


Maybe i missed something, but where in the poster are the angels?
 
2013-11-26 04:04:15 PM  

Iblis824: Maybe i missed something, but where in the poster are the angels?


There's a right angel in each corner.
 
2013-11-26 04:14:18 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: Hebalo: TigerzDad:
Are you serious? The Weeping Angels are were brilliant monsters! Except for the giant angel in Angels Take Manhattan

Blink was amazing. Every appearance since has simply watered their impact down. If we never see them again, it would be for the best.

Exactly. The Angels were awesome and brilliant and mysterious, and now they suck. River Song was awesome and brilliant and mysterious, and now she sucks. Clara is boring and she sucks and I'm really pissed she's in the 50th because now I'll never escape her.

I'm looking forward to Capaldi. I'm tired of Matt Smith's Doctor, and I'm very tired of Stephen Moffat. I'm looking forward to when Moffat leaves (after this next season, I think?)


Change, my dear, and not a moment too soon.

\actually a full season too late, but what the hell
 
2013-11-26 04:16:19 PM  

Hebalo: Iblis824: Maybe i missed something, but where in the poster are the angels?

There's a right angel in each corner.


I don' see an.. OH DEAR GOD THEY'VE ESCAPED
 
2013-11-26 04:45:16 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Change, my dear, and not a moment too soon.


So you're saying that the next show-runner will strangle a production assistant with large breasts? Wait, grammar, he will strangle a production assistant who  has large breasts. The other way sounds like he'd be strangling them with breasts, which seems like it should cost extra.
 
2013-11-26 05:58:17 PM  

Dr. Whoof: I'm really looking forward to the Capaldi doctor.  The cameo in the 50th was just perfect.  He does not look like a happy Doctor.  So far we've had Denial Doctor (Eccleston), Regret Doctor (Tennant), and Manic Doctor (Smith).  Time for Grumpy Doctor.


Sneezy Doctor and Bashful Doctor are up next.
 
2013-11-26 07:10:08 PM  
Now that it's been established in the Anniversary, the Doctor can simply go back in time to meet his past selves and solve every problem talking it over with them. Well, enjoy your two minute long Christmas special.
 
2013-11-26 07:18:48 PM  

Rip Steakface: Now that it's been established in the Anniversary, the Doctor can simply go back in time to meet his past selves and solve every problem talking it over with them. Well, enjoy your two minute long Christmas special.


Yeah, except for the part that he probably needed the Moment's help to do that...
Anytime there's been more than one incarnation of the Doctor in the same place at a given time it was due to some sort of special circumstance. He can't usually just call up a past or future self and be all "Dude, I'm totally farked, help a bro out dawg."
 
2013-11-26 07:20:51 PM  

Rwa2play: UNC_Samurai: Dammit, they're bringing back the Weeping Angels. I was really hoping Moffat would quit dredging the bottom of that well.

/been really happy with everything he's done except for making some of the most boring episodes with those things

From what I saw in the preview, it's the Cybermen, Daleks, Weeping Angels AND the Silence involved.


Yeah.  I'm hoping it's a good sendoff for Smith but it is starting to look like another Moffat "every bad guy in the universe in one place" storyline.
 
2013-11-26 07:21:12 PM  

Dingleberry Dickwad: Rip Steakface: Now that it's been established in the Anniversary, the Doctor can simply go back in time to meet his past selves and solve every problem talking it over with them. Well, enjoy your two minute long Christmas special.

Yeah, except for the part that he probably needed the Moment's help to do that...
Anytime there's been more than one incarnation of the Doctor in the same place at a given time it was due to some sort of special circumstance. He can't usually just call up a past or future self and be all "Dude, I'm totally farked, help a bro out dawg."


True, but it happens often enough.
 
2013-11-26 07:25:44 PM  
One Cyberman = Scary
Army of cybermen = not scary.
One Dalek = Scary. As hell.
Army of Daleks = farking ridiculous
Unless, y'know...you get Nicholas Briggs smack-talking with himself again

/Apparently Capaldi will get to use his normal accent instead of having to pretend to be English like Tennant did
//If there isn't just one little mini-sode where he defeats the the Daleks with obscenities, I will lose all respect for Children In Need.
///But if someone makes the shape-shifting penguin canon, I will spontaneously be pregnant with Moffat's babies.
 
2013-11-26 07:49:33 PM  
NuWho steals ideas from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. NuWho isn't science fiction.
 
2013-11-26 07:57:41 PM  

Rip Steakface: NuWho steals ideas from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. Nu Doctor Who isn't science fiction.


FTFY
 
2013-11-26 08:11:01 PM  

Shadowtag: you get Nicholas Briggs smack-talking with himself again


Five rounds rapid!

Shadowtag: Apparently Capaldi will get to use his normal accent instead of having to pretend to be English like Tennant did


That would make me so happy.
 
2013-11-26 08:22:18 PM  

Shadowtag: One Cyberman = Scary
Army of cybermen = not scary.
One Dalek = Scary. As hell.
Army of Daleks = farking ridiculous
Unless, y'know...you get Nicholas Briggs smack-talking with himself again

/Apparently Capaldi will get to use his normal accent instead of having to pretend to be English like Tennant did
//If there isn't just one little mini-sode where he defeats the the Daleks with obscenities, I will lose all respect for Children In Need.
///But if someone makes the shape-shifting penguin canon, I will spontaneously be pregnant with Moffat's babies.


Only if we ever get a canon episode/audio play with Kevin the Robot Dinosaur.
 
2013-11-26 08:37:57 PM  

UNC_Samurai: Only if we ever get a canon episode/audio play with Kevin the Robot Dinosaur.


Seconded. And Kevin must battle space Cthulhu.
 
2013-11-26 09:38:05 PM  
I don't want to sound like a nerd but, i am on fark and this is a Doctor Who thread... so i suppose the cat is out of the bag. I've watched the 50th like 4 or 5 times sinced it aired and once again Moffat proves he's brilliant. Jenna Coleman and Matt Smith were great too. I am excited for Peter Capaldi, but really nobody is going to miss 11?
 
2013-11-26 09:49:02 PM  

Flappyhead: Rwa2play: UNC_Samurai: Dammit, they're bringing back the Weeping Angels. I was really hoping Moffat would quit dredging the bottom of that well.

/been really happy with everything he's done except for making some of the most boring episodes with those things

From what I saw in the preview, it's the Cybermen, Daleks, Weeping Angels AND the Silence involved.

Yeah.  I'm hoping it's a good sendoff for Smith but it is starting to look like another Moffat "every bad guy in the universe in one place" storyline.


Well, I'll give Moffat some leeway after an excellent 50th Anniv. episode.
 
2013-11-26 10:07:59 PM  

Rwa2play: Flappyhead: Rwa2play: UNC_Samurai: Dammit, they're bringing back the Weeping Angels. I was really hoping Moffat would quit dredging the bottom of that well.

/been really happy with everything he's done except for making some of the most boring episodes with those things

From what I saw in the preview, it's the Cybermen, Daleks, Weeping Angels AND the Silence involved.

Yeah.  I'm hoping it's a good sendoff for Smith but it is starting to look like another Moffat "every bad guy in the universe in one place" storyline.

Well, I'll give Moffat some leeway after an excellent 50th Anniv. episode.


He did a good job with the episode and only managed to leave open a few gaping plotholes ... perhaps the Zygons thing will come back, perhaps not.  And, if Clara is splintered through time and spent her existence "helping" Doctors, why did she appear to have no memory of the War Doctor?  Weird.

Also, the whole move the planet and the Daleks will annihilate their entire race in the crossfire was a bit silly.
 
2013-11-26 10:23:28 PM  

Hebalo: Moffat had a decent start, but I'm not liking his direction now. In my opinion, he's sacrificing the moments and individual episodes for flash and bang long arcs. Last season was the worst of the NuWho, and the season before was pretty shaky.


I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. Can't stand science fiction dramas without overall story arcs, so Moffat's run has been pretty cromulent to me. And I'm finding most of this past season was more enjoyable on a second viewing.


Shadowtag: Unless, y'know...you get Nicholas Briggs smack-talking with himself again


I can't imagine how many takes it took him to get through that scene... It was funnier than most sitcoms produced in the last decade.

phaseolus: Matt Smith had a lot of Troughton in his character, which makes me think Capaldi will come off more like Pertwee than Colin Baker - aloof and a bit testy, but not outright irritated at having to acknowledge the existence of other people.
And Tennant modeled his doctor off of Davidson. I doubt they will just rehash in order like that.
Ideally it'll be very original and highly entertaining, but I can kinda imagine Capaldi using Jeremy Brett's Sherlock Holmes as a jumping-off point.


From what little I've seen, Capaldi looks talented enough that he won't have to "model" his Doctor off of anyone else (just like Eccelston was).
 
2013-11-26 10:26:17 PM  

Southernmost Farker: I don't want to sound like a nerd but, i am on fark and this is a Doctor Who thread... so i suppose the cat is out of the bag. I've watched the 50th like 4 or 5 times sinced it aired and once again Moffat proves he's brilliant. Jenna Coleman and Matt Smith were great too. I am excited for Peter Capaldi, but really nobody is going to miss 11?


I'm definitely going to miss him.  He's my favorite Doctor.
 
2013-11-26 10:27:45 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Rwa2play: Flappyhead: Rwa2play: UNC_Samurai: Dammit, they're bringing back the Weeping Angels. I was really hoping Moffat would quit dredging the bottom of that well.

/been really happy with everything he's done except for making some of the most boring episodes with those things

From what I saw in the preview, it's the Cybermen, Daleks, Weeping Angels AND the Silence involved.

Yeah.  I'm hoping it's a good sendoff for Smith but it is starting to look like another Moffat "every bad guy in the universe in one place" storyline.

Well, I'll give Moffat some leeway after an excellent 50th Anniv. episode.

He did a good job with the episode and only managed to leave open a few gaping plotholes ... perhaps the Zygons thing will come back, perhaps not.  And, if Clara is splintered through time and spent her existence "helping" Doctors, why did she appear to have no memory of the War Doctor?  Weird.

Also, the whole move the planet and the Daleks will annihilate their entire race in the crossfire was a bit silly.


She may not have any memories of any of the Doctors...those weren't necessarily her.

In any case, I doubt she would have any memories of the War Doctor because he's time locked.
 
2013-11-26 10:42:52 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: why did she appear to have no memory of the War Doctor?  Weird.


Go back and rewatch Name of the Doctor.

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Also, the whole move the planet and the Daleks will annihilate their entire race in the crossfire was a bit silly.


Not really, it makes sense.

You should probably see if you can find a support group for people who don't like things but can't seem to stop commenting in threads about them.
 
2013-11-26 10:46:14 PM  

Southernmost Farker: I don't want to sound like a nerd but, i am on fark and this is a Doctor Who thread... so i suppose the cat is out of the bag. I've watched the 50th like 4 or 5 times sinced it aired and once again Moffat proves he's brilliant. Jenna Coleman and Matt Smith were great too. I am excited for Peter Capaldi, but really nobody is going to miss 11?



I've enjoyed Smith's run immensely, but one thing you kinda learn watching Doctor Who is letting go of attachments.
 
2013-11-26 10:51:31 PM  

phaseolus: Southernmost Farker: I don't want to sound like a nerd but, i am on fark and this is a Doctor Who thread... so i suppose the cat is out of the bag. I've watched the 50th like 4 or 5 times sinced it aired and once again Moffat proves he's brilliant. Jenna Coleman and Matt Smith were great too. I am excited for Peter Capaldi, but really nobody is going to miss 11?


I've enjoyed Smith's run immensely, but one thing you kinda learn watching Doctor Who is letting go of attachments.


He's right, like my scout leader told me, "It gets easier each time it happens."
 
2013-11-26 11:06:16 PM  

Magruda: phaseolus: Southernmost Farker: I don't want to sound like a nerd but, i am on fark and this is a Doctor Who thread... so i suppose the cat is out of the bag. I've watched the 50th like 4 or 5 times sinced it aired and once again Moffat proves he's brilliant. Jenna Coleman and Matt Smith were great too. I am excited for Peter Capaldi, but really nobody is going to miss 11?


I've enjoyed Smith's run immensely, but one thing you kinda learn watching Doctor Who is letting go of attachments.

He's right, like my scout leader told me, "It gets easier each time it happens."


glad to hear I'm not the only one who enjoyed 11, hope 12 has me won over as quicky as Smith did after Tennant.
 
2013-11-26 11:11:28 PM  

Magruda: phaseolus: I've enjoyed Smith's run immensely, but one thing you kinda learn watching Doctor Who is letting go of attachments.
He's right, like my scout leader told me, "It gets easier each time it happens."


i.imgur.com
 
2013-11-26 11:50:53 PM  
Can't wait to see Capaldi (again).
 
2013-11-26 11:52:21 PM  

phaseolus: Southernmost Farker: I don't want to sound like a nerd but, i am on fark and this is a Doctor Who thread... so i suppose the cat is out of the bag. I've watched the 50th like 4 or 5 times sinced it aired and once again Moffat proves he's brilliant. Jenna Coleman and Matt Smith were great too. I am excited for Peter Capaldi, but really nobody is going to miss 11?


I've enjoyed Smith's run immensely, but one thing you kinda learn watching Doctor Who is letting go of attachments.


This. My friend got me into the show and I asked him "How does a show change the main actor constantly and make you not give a shiat?!?!".
 
2013-11-27 12:06:40 AM  
Based on the War Doctor's interactions with Ten and Eleven, I suspect that Twelve will be more of a traditional grownup Doctor.

/Timey-wimey?
 
2013-11-27 12:30:41 AM  
One other thing will be happening in the Christmas special: the 13-regen limit will be tackled.  Moffat is on record as saying that the extra Tennant regeneration in The Stolen Earth/Journey's End counted.  Add that one in plus the War Doctor, and Smith is actually the 13th (counting regenerations, not faces).

Honestly, I am looking forward to it, especially after how awesome The Day of the Doctor was.
 
2013-11-27 12:45:13 AM  

cheer: Add that one in plus the War Doctor, and Smith is actually the 13th (counting regenerations, not faces)


You have to wonder if Smith's doctor knew something was up when a 13th doctor showed up in the special to help out with Gallifrey
 
2013-11-27 02:49:25 AM  

Pentaxian: I sucked it up last night and took the wife and kid to a 3-D showing of Day of the Doctor. Even though I am no fan of the show I liked the episode (although I think that Eccleston is being a prat not showing up)

And Jenna Coleman makes my souffle rise...
[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x413]


You're "no fan," but you have an opinion on Eccleston and know the souffle reference?

So, was Baker a prat for not doing the 20th?
 
2013-11-27 02:55:58 AM  

Mike Chewbacca: Dingleberry Dickwad: Rip Steakface: Now that it's been established in the Anniversary, the Doctor can simply go back in time to meet his past selves and solve every problem talking it over with them. Well, enjoy your two minute long Christmas special.

Yeah, except for the part that he probably needed the Moment's help to do that...
Anytime there's been more than one incarnation of the Doctor in the same place at a given time it was due to some sort of special circumstance. He can't usually just call up a past or future self and be all "Dude, I'm totally farked, help a bro out dawg."

True, but it happens often enough.


5 times in 50 years, unless I'm missing some. 5 times in 259 stories (plus mini-episodes). All under extraordinary circumstances.

"The Three Doctors"
"The Five Doctors"
"The Two Doctors"
"Time Crash" (mini)
"The Day of the Doctor"

Is that really something worth complaining about?
 
2013-11-27 03:02:45 AM  

Southernmost Farker: I don't want to sound like a nerd but, i am on fark and this is a Doctor Who thread... so i suppose the cat is out of the bag. I've watched the 50th like 4 or 5 times sinced it aired and once again Moffat proves he's brilliant. Jenna Coleman and Matt Smith were great too. I am excited for Peter Capaldi, but really nobody is going to miss 11?


Moffat often seems brilliant at first blush, but having seen it 4 or 5 times you should have noticed by now that there are some significant problems, not the least of which is that the Zygon storyline was just flat-out abandoned.

I think Smith is fantastic, but I won't miss him as such. I'm completely gung-ho for Capaldi.
 
2013-11-27 03:23:54 AM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Also, the whole move the planet and the Daleks will annihilate their entire race in the crossfire was a bit silly.


Granted they'd stop firing as soon as they figured out what was going on, and granted there'd be a lot of ships that survived. But keep in mind that 1) the volume of fire going on from that volume of ships would so some pretty serious damage before they worked it out, and 2) it's not remotely clear how long it would take to do so. Gallifrey didn't just disappear. There was a big build-up, and a flash, and then a cut-away. There could have been a big ball of wibbley-wobbly, timey-wimey dust or something that obscured the Daleks' view of each other while mass casualties were inflicted. Not all of them would have been killed, but then we already knew that was the case from all the Dalek stories since 2005.

If you want to get right down to it, the flaw is much bigger than the crossfire issue. For the climactic battle as shown in "The Day of the Doctor" to work at all, every Time Lord and every Dalek would have to have been at Gallifrey that day. No other battle fronts anywhere else in the universe, which we know isn't true from the comments in "The Night of the Doctor" about the damage the war was inflicting. It's patently ridiculous.

Had the Doctors used The Moment, it's arguable that something more far-reaching would have happened that would have genuinely wiped out every member of both species.

But I'd argue (and granted, I'm writing my own solution here) that in their excitement at having found a solution that doesn't require them to commit double-genocide, the Doctors either don't think about, or just accept, that there are going to be some Daleks that survive.

Some much bigger questions:

1) It's been made abundantly clear multiple times that the Time Lords became as bad as the Daleks in the end. Is saving them such a good idea?

2) The episode ends with the Doctor saying, "At last I know where I'm going, where I've always been going: Home...the long way around." Um, no. The Doctor has been running away from home all his adult life. He's never had any interest in going home. Or at least not in going home to a society run by the Time Lords. People have complained about some of the retcon in this episode, but none of it holds a candle to the idea that the Doctor would be at all keen to go home.
 
2013-11-27 03:38:06 AM  

Magruda: whizbangthedirtfarmer: Also, the whole move the planet and the Daleks will annihilate their entire race in the crossfire was a bit silly.

Not really, it makes sense.

You should probably see if you can find a support group for people who don't like things but can't seem to stop commenting in threads about them.


OK, having just defended the crossfire idea myself, I have to say you're off base here, and being kind of a dick about it. Think about what the chances are that ships a whole planet away would get hit by fire from ships on the other side of that planet. Especially fire that was aimed at something in between. Imagine 200 gunslingers in a circle around a stadium, all firing at the concession stands in the concourse (yes, in this scenario they can see and shoot through walls). Now imagine the stadium disappears. How many of those gunslingers to you think will be hit by stray bullets? Now ad a third dimension. Sure some gunslingers are going down. But nobody in their right mind would imagine they'd all annihilate each other.
 
2013-11-27 03:40:06 AM  

Mentat: Based on the War Doctor's interactions with Ten and Eleven, I suspect that Twelve will be more of a traditional grownup Doctor.

/Timey-wimey?


You may be right, but what does the War Doctor's interactions with those two have to do with how Capaldi will play his Doctor? I don't see the connection.
 
2013-11-27 08:17:40 AM  

Dingleberry Dickwad: Rip Steakface: Now that it's been established in the Anniversary, the Doctor can simply go back in time to meet his past selves and solve every problem talking it over with them. Well, enjoy your two minute long Christmas special.

Yeah, except for the part that he probably needed the Moment's help to do that...
Anytime there's been more than one incarnation of the Doctor in the same place at a given time it was due to some sort of special circumstance. He can't usually just call up a past or future self and be all "Dude, I'm totally farked, help a bro out dawg."


There's no good reason he can't. It would be a lot more fun if Capaldi could meet up with a prior incarnation for half a series or so. There have been so many opportunities when this would have been fun and, fanwank notwithstanding, it would have tied together Old and Nu.

Imagine Blink with Tennant and Martha seeking out Troughton's help rather than fannying around with DVD Easter eggs. Or the 50th could have had Smith heading back to 1963 meeting up with McCoy & Ace from 1988. Fun fun and possible in small doses with CGI and effects.

Or even Capaldi & Clara's story overlapping with a prior one.

All much better than inventing neverheardofbefore Doctors for a one-off disappointment.
 
2013-11-27 08:24:10 AM  

100 Watt Walrus: Magruda: whizbangthedirtfarmer: Also, the whole move the planet and the Daleks will annihilate their entire race in the crossfire was a bit silly.

Not really, it makes sense.

You should probably see if you can find a support group for people who don't like things but can't seem to stop commenting in threads about them.

OK, having just defended the crossfire idea myself, I have to say you're off base here, and being kind of a dick about it. Think about what the chances are that ships a whole planet away would get hit by fire from ships on the other side of that planet. Especially fire that was aimed at something in between. Imagine 200 gunslingers in a circle around a stadium, all firing at the concession stands in the concourse (yes, in this scenario they can see and shoot through walls). Now imagine the stadium disappears. How many of those gunslingers to you think will be hit by stray bullets? Now ad a third dimension. Sure some gunslingers are going down. But nobody in their right mind would imagine they'd all annihilate each other.


Yes, this whole time, Moffat has to reconcile two things: the Daleks are deadly and also quite smart, and that they were almost all eliminated in the war.  So: move the planet and they'll keep shooting until almost all of them are dead?  Huh?  Not one Dalek would say: hey, let's stop shooting each other?
 
2013-11-27 08:25:25 AM  

Magruda: whizbangthedirtfarmer: why did she appear to have no memory of the War Doctor? Weird.

Go back and rewatch Name of the Doctor.


What exactly are you referring to?  She splinters, and goes through time to "save" all of the Doctors ... if they listen to her.  So why doesn't she know/remember War Doctor?  I must be missing something, then?
 
2013-11-27 08:33:22 AM  

100 Watt Walrus: 1) It's been made abundantly clear multiple times that the Time Lords became as bad as the Daleks in the end. Is saving them such a good idea?


One of the problems the Doctor has been dealing with was the fact that not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords, in fact it's been inferred that Time Lords are the elite of Gallifrey. Given that Tennant tells Hurt that the count of dead children from everything was something like 2.47 billion and that's not counting the parents, even if 10% of Gallifreyans were nasty Time Lords that's still a lot of innocent blood on your hands.

I'm hoping that if the show does have the Doctor find Gallifrey again, that he manages to convince Time Lord society to change. Even they would have to look at almost being wiped out by Daleks as incentive to review their ways.


100 Watt Walrus: 2) The episode ends with the Doctor saying, "At last I know where I'm going, where I've always been going: Home...the long way around." Um, no. The Doctor has been running away from home all his adult life. He's never had any interest in going home. Or at least not in going home to a society run by the Time Lords. People have complained about some of the retcon in this episode, but none of it holds a candle to the idea that the Doctor would be at all keen to go home.


Mind you this is just my opinion on this but I would think the guilt of thinking he destroyed his entire race and planet might make him a bit nostalgic for home. Not to mention that despite how bad Gallifrey had been to him on occasion, it's still home. And considering everything that's happened it's possible he's thinking that he can bring about some change now that the planet has seen what happens when they get to cocky, arrogant and dickish. Add in the relief at he didn't really destroy his planet and entire race and I could see where he'd want to at the very least check things out even if he doesn't want to stick around and become President again. Granted as much as I think Moffat's an ok showrunner I don't know that he'd go that deep with the character, but it's a thought.
 
2013-11-27 08:36:56 AM  

100 Watt Walrus: Mentat: Based on the War Doctor's interactions with Ten and Eleven, I suspect that Twelve will be more of a traditional grownup Doctor.

/Timey-wimey?

You may be right, but what does the War Doctor's interactions with those two have to do with how Capaldi will play his Doctor? I don't see the connection.


There's not necessarily a connection, but having a younger version of himself tell him that he sounds a biatchildish could influence his personality in the future a bit.
 
2013-11-27 09:38:08 AM  

Southernmost Farker: I don't want to sound like a nerd but, i am on fark and this is a Doctor Who thread... so i suppose the cat is out of the bag. I've watched the 50th like 4 or 5 times sinced it aired and once again Moffat proves he's brilliant. Jenna Coleman and Matt Smith were great too. I am excited for Peter Capaldi, but really nobody is going to miss 11?


Damn, 4 or 5 times? One was enough for me. It was decent, but not epic. So many problems with the script, glossing over the Zygon story, etc.

Once was plenty, it's a 7/10 episode at best, and Tom Baker bumped that up a point by himself.
 
2013-11-27 09:49:58 AM  

100 Watt Walrus: You're "no fan," but you have an opinion on Eccleston and know the souffle reference?

So, was Baker a prat for not doing the 20th?


I know sometimes in Farkistan there is a belief something is either awesome or an anathema. I don't hate the show like I hate Beiber, Kris Jenner, and creationists.

I don't runt out the room when my family has marathon Doctor Who session going on. My desire to do something together as simple as watching a TV show together outweighs my boredom with the show. Besides, I know my wife feels the same way when my daughter and I watch MST3K.

I don't know what was going on between Baker and BBC at the time but it looks like he never cut himself totally off anything Doctor Who.
 
2013-11-27 10:14:31 AM  

100 Watt Walrus: Southernmost Farker: I don't want to sound like a nerd but, i am on fark and this is a Doctor Who thread... so i suppose the cat is out of the bag. I've watched the 50th like 4 or 5 times sinced it aired and once again Moffat proves he's brilliant. Jenna Coleman and Matt Smith were great too. I am excited for Peter Capaldi, but really nobody is going to miss 11?

Moffat often seems brilliant at first blush, but having seen it 4 or 5 times you should have noticed by now that there are some significant problems, not the least of which is that the Zygon storyline was just flat-out abandoned.

I think Smith is fantastic, but I won't miss him as such. I'm completely gung-ho for Capaldi.


It wasn't 'abadoned', it was 'resolved'.

There's a difference :p
 
2013-11-27 10:24:13 AM  

100 Watt Walrus: OK, having just defended the crossfire idea myself, I have to say you're off base here, and being kind of a dick about it.


I know i was being a bit of a dick. I was just sick of wizbang trolling two DW threads and wanted to throw a little bit back at him.

100 Watt Walrus: Think about what the chances are that ships a whole planet away would get hit by fire from ships on the other side of that planet


We can assume that the Daleks were shooting weapons that were basically planet killers which were being stopped by the timelord shields. Those shields were probably absorbing most of the energy released by those weapons so there was not a massive explosion every time they hit. It is possible that when Gallifrey disappeared and those explosions were no longer being absorbed that their full power was then unleashed causing the massive explosion that we saw. Don't think of it as they all hit eachother but enough hit to cause the explosion. It is also possible that the act of making an entire planet disappear in a single instance in time itself caused a massive release of energy that destroyed the Daleks.

The point is that you don't have to suspend belief to much to imagine it happening.

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Magruda: whizbangthedirtfarmer: why did she appear to have no memory of the War Doctor? Weird.

Go back and rewatch Name of the Doctor.

What exactly are you referring to?  She splinters, and goes through time to "save" all of the Doctors ... if they listen to her.  So why doesn't she know/remember War Doctor?  I must be missing something, then?


Go back and watch it at about 42 minutes in. I'll paraphrase, "Who is that? Why don't i know him? I saw all of your faces." "Let me explain that to you."
 
2013-11-27 10:34:55 AM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: So: move the planet and they'll keep shooting until almost all of them are dead?  Huh?  Not one Dalek would say: hey, let's stop shooting each other?


I seem to remember the explosion happening as soon as the planet disappeared.
 
2013-11-27 10:41:01 AM  
I'm not getting the frustration with the Zygon story being dropped.  To me it was important to the story, but it wasn't the story itself.  It was important because the War Doctor needed to see 10/11 (12/13?) solve the issue which was indicative of the type of man he would become as a result of destroying his own people.  After that he decided that the horrid act was worth it because the universe was a better place with a remorseful Doctor running around (something along the lines of "How many worlds has his regret saved?").  After he had resigned himself to being the black sheep of the Doctor lineage (great men are forged in fire, it is the privilege of lesser men to light the flame) the story followed him, as well it should.  What impact would it have had on the story to find out that UNIT awarded Greenland to the Zygons as a safe haven?  It didn't matter any more, it wasn't relevant to the War Doctor's story which was, IMHO, the main story.
 
2013-11-27 10:42:11 AM  

100 Watt Walrus: Mentat: Based on the War Doctor's interactions with Ten and Eleven, I suspect that Twelve will be more of a traditional grownup Doctor.

/Timey-wimey?

You may be right, but what does the War Doctor's interactions with those two have to do with how Capaldi will play his Doctor? I don't see the connection.


The War Doctor (and most of his predecessors) were more "grown up" in their mentalities and worldviews.  After the war, the Doctors reverted in many ways to more child-like personas, as if they were metaphorically trying to run away from their past.  The War Doctor made several snide comments about how immature and goofy they were before finally accepting them as great men.  With the trauma of the war finally conquered and with no more need to run away, I think a more mature Doctor can emerge again.
 
2013-11-27 10:45:16 AM  
Also, if Wikipedia is accurate, this would be the 800th episode.
 
2013-11-27 11:06:41 AM  

That Reilly Monster: I'm not getting the frustration with the Zygon story being dropped.  To me it was important to the story, but it wasn't the story itself.  It was important because the War Doctor needed to see 10/11 (12/13?) solve the issue which was indicative of the type of man he would become as a result of destroying his own people.  After that he decided that the horrid act was worth it because the universe was a better place with a remorseful Doctor running around (something along the lines of "How many worlds has his regret saved?").  After he had resigned himself to being the black sheep of the Doctor lineage (great men are forged in fire, it is the privilege of lesser men to light the flame) the story followed him, as well it should.  What impact would it have had on the story to find out that UNIT awarded Greenland to the Zygons as a safe haven?  It didn't matter any more, it wasn't relevant to the War Doctor's story which was, IMHO, the main story.


I'm kind of baffled by that as well. The Zygons weren't the plot, they were an accessory to the actual plot which was the Doctor's involvement with the Time War. They were there as you said so Hurt's Doctor could see what his future selves become and so that they could give the Doctors an idea on how to end the Time War without destroying Gallifrey.  We know all we really need to know about the Zygons. They were working peacefully with the humans to come to a truce. I can understand a little bit of frustration that when Tennant and Smith showed up to meet Hurt before he used the Moment and they didn't at least say something like "The Zygons have agreed to leave humanity in peace and stay in human form and become part of society" or something of that nature, but it's not all that important at that part of the story.
 
2013-11-27 11:20:18 AM  

That Reilly Monster: I'm not getting the frustration with the Zygon story being dropped.  To me it was important to the story, but it wasn't the story itself.  It was important because the War Doctor needed to see 10/11 (12/13?) solve the issue which was indicative of the type of man he would become as a result of destroying his own people.  After that he decided that the horrid act was worth it because the universe was a better place with a remorseful Doctor running around (something along the lines of "How many worlds has his regret saved?").  After he had resigned himself to being the black sheep of the Doctor lineage (great men are forged in fire, it is the privilege of lesser men to light the flame) the story followed him, as well it should.  What impact would it have had on the story to find out that UNIT awarded Greenland to the Zygons as a safe haven?  It didn't matter any more, it wasn't relevant to the War Doctor's story which was, IMHO, the main story.


Actually, I got from it that the Moment showed him "exactly the future he needed to see" in regards to the Zygons freezing themselves in the paintings....using that (and his future selves), he can come up with the idea of freezing Gallifrey.  That's why the Zygons were important to the story, imo.
 
2013-11-27 11:21:15 AM  

Dingleberry Dickwad: That Reilly Monster: I'm not getting the frustration with the Zygon story being dropped.  To me it was important to the story, but it wasn't the story itself.  It was important because the War Doctor needed to see 10/11 (12/13?) solve the issue which was indicative of the type of man he would become as a result of destroying his own people.  After that he decided that the horrid act was worth it because the universe was a better place with a remorseful Doctor running around (something along the lines of "How many worlds has his regret saved?").  After he had resigned himself to being the black sheep of the Doctor lineage (great men are forged in fire, it is the privilege of lesser men to light the flame) the story followed him, as well it should.  What impact would it have had on the story to find out that UNIT awarded Greenland to the Zygons as a safe haven?  It didn't matter any more, it wasn't relevant to the War Doctor's story which was, IMHO, the main story.

I'm kind of baffled by that as well. The Zygons weren't the plot, they were an accessory to the actual plot which was the Doctor's involvement with the Time War. They were there as you said so Hurt's Doctor could see what his future selves become and so that they could give the Doctors an idea on how to end the Time War without destroying Gallifrey.  We know all we really need to know about the Zygons. They were working peacefully with the humans to come to a truce. I can understand a little bit of frustration that when Tennant and Smith showed up to meet Hurt before he used the Moment and they didn't at least say something like "The Zygons have agreed to leave humanity in peace and stay in human form and become part of society" or something of that nature, but it's not all that important at that part of the story.


Exactly. The plot was resolved, not abandoned. Just because it looked like Tennant and Smith immediately followed the War Doctor back to the Moment, that doesn't mean it didn't take hours and hours for them to finish the peace treaty between the Zygons and humans.

img0.etsystatic.com
 
2013-11-27 11:35:39 AM  

That Reilly Monster: I'm not getting the frustration with the Zygon story being dropped.  To me it was important to the story, but it wasn't the story itself.  It was important because the War Doctor needed to see 10/11 (12/13?) solve the issue which was indicative of the type of man he would become as a result of destroying his own people.  After that he decided that the horrid act was worth it because the universe was a better place with a remorseful Doctor running around (something along the lines of "How many worlds has his regret saved?").  After he had resigned himself to being the black sheep of the Doctor lineage (great men are forged in fire, it is the privilege of lesser men to light the flame) the story followed him, as well it should.  What impact would it have had on the story to find out that UNIT awarded Greenland to the Zygons as a safe haven?  It didn't matter any more, it wasn't relevant to the War Doctor's story which was, IMHO, the main story.


Pretty much this.  Think "Cold Blood" and how that was resolved.
 
2013-11-27 11:43:03 AM  
I have a theory that those races/civilizations that Doctor saved who were on-call in "The Wedding of River Song" will be involved in the Xmas episode to help the Doctor, whether he wants it or not.
 
2013-11-27 12:32:47 PM  
I was a bit underwhelmed by the 50th special.

1 - IMO, it should have been Paul McGann instead of John Hurt. I like Hurt, but wasn't necessary to bring in another actor and McGann would have been more fitting for a 50th anniversary special.

2 - They should have focused on one story - the Time War one, and ditch the Zygons. And the time war should have been more epic. Where was the Nightmare Child, the armies of Never-weres and Meanwhiles, the Could-have-been-King, and the Horde of Travesties? Where was the 'time' part of the Time War? We just got lasers and 'splosions.

3 - What was 'The Moment' designed to do, exactly? I'm certain it wasn't designed to create a ghost that can break time-locks and talk you out of destroying stuff. Or maybe it was, I don't know?
 
2013-11-27 01:17:41 PM  

Samwise Gamgee: 1 - IMO, it should have been Paul McGann instead of John Hurt. I like Hurt, but wasn't necessary to bring in another actor and McGann would have been more fitting for a 50th anniversary special.


Someone in another thread pointed out that that would have negated all of his radio DW episodes.

Samwise Gamgee: 2 - They should have focused on one story - the Time War one, and ditch the Zygons.


The Zygon story was a mirror "mutually assured destruction" plot. If you can't figure out why it was in the episode, well, then there's a reason you're called "Samwise."

Samwise Gamgee: 3 - What was 'The Moment' designed to do, exactly? I'm certain it wasn't designed to create a ghost that can break time-locks and talk you out of destroying stuff. Or maybe it was, I don't know?


Yes, that's exactly what it was designed to do. Or rather, that's what it became when it gained sentience and a conscience.
 
2013-11-27 03:43:10 PM  

Magruda: whizbangthedirtfarmer: So: move the planet and they'll keep shooting until almost all of them are dead?  Huh?  Not one Dalek would say: hey, let's stop shooting each other?

I seem to remember the explosion happening as soon as the planet disappeared.


Considering the Time Lords indicated that there were numerous Dalek reinforcements in the way, then, well, I guess they would have to be doubly stupid to keep firing in such a way to kill each other after the planet "exploded" (which it didn't, apparently, therefore meaning the Daleks were not destroyed by the explosion, but by firing at each other ... nonstop, until they had all killed one another).
 
2013-11-27 03:45:16 PM  

Magruda: 100 Watt Walrus: OK, having just defended the crossfire idea myself, I have to say you're off base here, and being kind of a dick about it.

I know i was being a bit of a dick. I was just sick of wizbang trolling two DW threads and wanted to throw a little bit back at him.

100 Watt Walrus: Think about what the chances are that ships a whole planet away would get hit by fire from ships on the other side of that planet

We can assume that the Daleks were shooting weapons that were basically planet killers which were being stopped by the timelord shields. Those shields were probably absorbing most of the energy released by those weapons so there was not a massive explosion every time they hit. It is possible that when Gallifrey disappeared and those explosions were no longer being absorbed that their full power was then unleashed causing the massive explosion that we saw. Don't think of it as they all hit eachother but enough hit to cause the explosion. It is also possible that the act of making an entire planet disappear in a single instance in time itself caused a massive release of energy that destroyed the Daleks.

The point is that you don't have to suspend belief to much to imagine it happening.

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Magruda: whizbangthedirtfarmer: why did she appear to have no memory of the War Doctor? Weird.

Go back and rewatch Name of the Doctor.

What exactly are you referring to?  She splinters, and goes through time to "save" all of the Doctors ... if they listen to her.  So why doesn't she know/remember War Doctor?  I must be missing something, then?

Go back and watch it at about 42 minutes in. I'll paraphrase, "Who is that? Why don't i know him? I saw all of your faces." "Let me explain that to you."


Oh, I know what you're talking about, but I would like you to explain it.  It is, after all, perfectly obvious.  I mean, the Doctor a) didn't know Clara was in his timestream, but b) was able to hide the Hurt Doctor from her anyway, even though it appears that she can flit in and out of everything else he does?
 
2013-11-27 04:15:10 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Magruda: 100 Watt Walrus: OK, having just defended the crossfire idea myself, I have to say you're off base here, and being kind of a dick about it.

I know i was being a bit of a dick. I was just sick of wizbang trolling two DW threads and wanted to throw a little bit back at him.

100 Watt Walrus: Think about what the chances are that ships a whole planet away would get hit by fire from ships on the other side of that planet

We can assume that the Daleks were shooting weapons that were basically planet killers which were being stopped by the timelord shields. Those shields were probably absorbing most of the energy released by those weapons so there was not a massive explosion every time they hit. It is possible that when Gallifrey disappeared and those explosions were no longer being absorbed that their full power was then unleashed causing the massive explosion that we saw. Don't think of it as they all hit eachother but enough hit to cause the explosion. It is also possible that the act of making an entire planet disappear in a single instance in time itself caused a massive release of energy that destroyed the Daleks.

The point is that you don't have to suspend belief to much to imagine it happening.

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Magruda: whizbangthedirtfarmer: why did she appear to have no memory of the War Doctor? Weird.

Go back and rewatch Name of the Doctor.

What exactly are you referring to?  She splinters, and goes through time to "save" all of the Doctors ... if they listen to her.  So why doesn't she know/remember War Doctor?  I must be missing something, then?

Go back and watch it at about 42 minutes in. I'll paraphrase, "Who is that? Why don't i know him? I saw all of your faces." "Let me explain that to you."

Oh, I know what you're talking about, but I would like you to explain it.  It is, after all, perfectly obvious.  I mean, the Doctor a) didn't know Clara was in his timestream, but b) was able to hide the Hurt Doctor from her anyway, even though it appears that she can flit in and out of everything else he does?


Like I said before, science fiction appears to be too complicated for you. If someone had to explain every little thing, then perhaps the Kardadhins are more your speed.
 
2013-11-27 04:35:14 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: Samwise Gamgee: 3 - What was 'The Moment' designed to do, exactly? I'm certain it wasn't designed to create a ghost that can break time-locks and talk you out of destroying stuff. Or maybe it was, I don't know?

Yes, that's exactly what it was designed to do. Or rather, that's what it became when it gained sentience and a conscience.


My speculation of what the Moment was from "The End of Time" turned out to be completely wrong.
I thought it was a strategic trap that the Doctor had set, creating a Time Lock (or Time Loop) around a critical battle so the Time Lords and Daleks actions would not affect the rest of the Universe.
(This is still possibly an explanation for the previously mentioned Time Lock on the War itself)

Turns out "The Moment" is more on the scale of (or similar to) the Ultimate Nullifier for those familar with the Marvel Universe.    It was a temporal nuclear bomb that could be used to do just about anything that a time weapon could be designed to do, including wiping an entire race of enemies from existence as if they had never been (similar to the effect of the cracks in time/space but on an infinite scale).

My suspicion is that The Moment was a TARDIS like device that instead of being able to travel to all points in space and time, could manipulate those points without having to move itself.   Perhaps in a way, the "interior" of The Moment was  a map of the entire universe and it could do the normal Tardis equivalent of changing the wallpaper.

The problem though, is that a "normal" Tardis was at lease already semi-sentient.  And the Doctor's Tardis eventually gained full sentience (or a more full sentience) as a consequence of its many travels with the Doctor.  The Moment didn't need to travel at all to have the full experience of all Tardis memory banks, all Time Lord history, and full access to the Time Lord Council Matrix; probably from the instant it was first switched on.   It was the Eye of Harmony meets Skynet.   They couldn't deploy it for fear that it might decide that Gallifrey and Skaros both needed to be erased to start over with a more efficient Universe.
 
2013-11-27 04:36:26 PM  

Samwise Gamgee: I was a bit underwhelmed by the 50th special.

1 - IMO, it should have been Paul McGann instead of John Hurt. I like Hurt, but wasn't necessary to bring in another actor and McGann would have been more fitting for a 50th anniversary special.


I disagree.  The heart of TDOTD was a redemption story.  Hurt's War Doctor didn't consider himself "The Doctor" because of what he had to do, and the future Doctors didn't either.  Ultimately the story was about redeeming him.  You really can't do that with McGann; McGann was clearly the Doctor in our hearts and minds, and one of the least "warlike" ones to boot.

2 - They should have focused on one story - the Time War one, and ditch the Zygons. And the time war should have been more epic. Where was the Nightmare Child, the armies of Never-weres and Meanwhiles, the Could-have-been-King, and the Horde of Travesties? Where was the 'time' part of the Time War? We just got lasers and 'splosions.

This wasn't meant to be the tale of the Time War.  All we see is the last day; there's no telling how much of that stuff went on before.  This was about the very end, the final Dalek offensive.  Presumably at this point the Daleks have countered everything the Time Lords have tried; even the forbidden weapons had all been used except for the Moment.

3 - What was 'The Moment' designed to do, exactly? I'm certain it wasn't designed to create a ghost that can break time-locks and talk you out of destroying stuff. Or maybe it was, I don't know?

No, it wasn't design to do that, but as was clearly pointed out, the device became sentient and developed a conscience.  So at that point, it WAS supposed to talk you out of destroying stuff.
 
2013-11-27 04:38:07 PM  
By the way, did everyone catch the little dig about UNIT dating?  Kate asks for the "Cromer" file (meant to refer to The Three Doctors, of course), and says "it might be listed under the 70s or 80s depending on the dating protocol."

Just awesome.
 
2013-11-27 04:41:31 PM  

Magruda: Like I said before, science fiction appears to be too complicated for you. If someone had to explain every little thing, then perhaps the Kardadhins are more your speed.


Meh.  What always interests me is that the Moffat homers will say that's he great, but when asked to explain some truly silly plots are just plain nonsensical arcs, they resort to insults.  So.  While you're not explaining this rather large plot hole, you can also overlook the giant Angel, the Daleks shooting each other, the Silence's absurd plot, and so on.

Some of us prefer to have sci-fi in which the writer or showrunner gives enough of a damn to bother to follow some sort of logic or reason.  I'm not expecting a lot, but they should hold up beyond just a few seconds of interrogation, or even within the moment itself.
 
2013-11-27 04:51:02 PM  
Mike Chewbacca:
Someone in another thread pointed out that that would have negated all of his radio DW episodes.

Why would it? It could just be a part of the 8th Doctor's tale - a dark time in his life. In the end, Hurt's redeemed and able to be considered a Doctor again, IMO. He didn't burn Gallifrey after all. It could have been McGann - just skip the bit about him regenerating at the end, and imply that at the end of the episode that 8 went off to have more adventures. McGann's a great Doctor and I would have been much more pleased with him in the tale than inventing a 'secret' Doctor out of nowhere.

Samwise Gamgee: 2 - They should have focused on one story - the Time War one, and ditch the Zygons.

The Zygon story was a mirror "mutually assured destruction" plot. If you can't figure out why it was in the episode, well, then there's a reason you're called "Samwise."


Yeah, I got the parallel about the nuke vs. The Moment, but it's not a very good parallel, is it, considering that the solution to the two problems were in no way similar?

Yes, that's exactly what it was designed to do. Or rather, that's what it became when it gained sentience and a conscience.

What would it have done if it didn't gain sentience? That's what I'm asking. What was it supposed to do?
 
2013-11-27 04:52:27 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Oh, I know what you're talking about, but I would like you to explain it.  It is, after all, perfectly obvious.  I mean, the Doctor a) didn't know Clara was in his timestream, but b) was able to hide the Hurt Doctor from her anyway, even though it appears that she can flit in and out of everything else he does?


* What we didn't know prior to the Day of the Doctor, was the decision to destroy Gallifrey as a bid to end the Time War was so traumatic for the Doctor that he created an amnesia about the whole regeneration in his mind (And possibly locked it out of the rest of his timestream as best he could).  Clara wouldn't have been able to pick it up from 11s thoughts because 9-11 had deliberately forgotten about it.

* Clara jumped into the Doctors time stream and fragmented along it specifically to track and repair the damage that the Great Intelligence was doing to reverse "all the good" event that the Doctor had been involved with.  She wouldn't have seen Hurt in any of those tracks because he was probably doing enough damage to his own reputation that the GI didn't see a need to sabotage any of his actions.

* Its possible that Clara only saw the faces that the Great Intelligence itself was aware of.
 
2013-11-27 04:52:32 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Some of us prefer to have sci-fi in which the writer or showrunner gives enough of a damn to bother to follow some sort of logic or reason.  I'm not expecting a lot, but they should hold up beyond just a few seconds of interrogation, or even within the moment itself


Agreed, but you are just nitpicking.
 
2013-11-27 04:53:54 PM  

Samwise Gamgee: What would it have done if it didn't gain sentience? That's what I'm asking. What was it supposed to do?


The implication was that it, at the very least, would be capable of wiping out two races utterly.  I realize they didn't give us detailed specs, but was that really needed?
 
2013-11-27 04:55:44 PM  

cheer: I disagree.  The heart of TDOTD was a redemption story.  Hurt's War Doctor didn't consider himself "The Doctor" because of what he had to do, and the future Doctors didn't either.  Ultimately the story was about redeeming him.  You really can't do that with McGann; McGann was clearly the Doctor in our hearts and minds, and one of the least "warlike" ones to boot.


 I think you could do it just fine with McGann. He goes to a 'dark place' and ditches the title of the Doctor for a while, but is redeemed at the end, and goes off, refreshed, to have more adventures (skip the regeneration scene at the end). It would just be a character development arc that wouldn't interfere with any other stories.

 It would have been awesome if the guy who turned around at the end of 'The Name of the Doctor' was McGann instead of John Hurt.
 
2013-11-27 04:59:47 PM  

cheer: Samwise Gamgee: What would it have done if it didn't gain sentience? That's what I'm asking. What was it supposed to do?

The implication was that it, at the very least, would be capable of wiping out two races utterly.  I realize they didn't give us detailed specs, but was that really needed?


 Yes, I think it's important to know what the implications of its use are, to elucidate just how desperate the Doctor had become. Does it wipe Gallifrey and the Daleks from history altogether, or just blow them up real good, or what? And since Hurt-Doctor isn't going to remember the events of DOTD, what exactly does he THINK he did to Gallifrey? They've said things in the past about how he 'burned' Gallifrey, etc. Without knowing exactly what the Moment does it's hard to say what exactly is at stake, and gauge the dramatic importance of what the Doctor (thinks he) did.
 
2013-11-27 05:00:35 PM  

Samwise Gamgee: Yeah, I got the parallel about the nuke vs. The Moment, but it's not a very good parallel, is it, considering that the solution to the two problems were in no way similar?


The take the scene where "they" were smart enough to figure out (finally) how to use their Sonics to affect the wooden door, but too blind to the situation to check if the door had been locked; as a connection to how they approached the solutions to the other problems presented in the flow of the story.
 
2013-11-27 05:09:42 PM  

Magruda: whizbangthedirtfarmer: Some of us prefer to have sci-fi in which the writer or showrunner gives enough of a damn to bother to follow some sort of logic or reason.  I'm not expecting a lot, but they should hold up beyond just a few seconds of interrogation, or even within the moment itself

Agreed, but you are just nitpicking.


Massive plotholes are not nitpicking.  If you can accept the Dalek fleet (and then their reinforcements) blowing each other up and wiping out (almost) their entire race, then you're a Moffat homer.  I'm willing to give Moffat some credit; he has done a good job with the show and has done some pretty awesome things (Tom Baker, for one).  But let's not give the guy a free pass.  He's done some awful things, too, so awful in fact, that even DWM has had a hard time following or enjoying the last season.
 
2013-11-27 05:11:35 PM  

Seequinn: whizbangthedirtfarmer: Oh, I know what you're talking about, but I would like you to explain it.  It is, after all, perfectly obvious.  I mean, the Doctor a) didn't know Clara was in his timestream, but b) was able to hide the Hurt Doctor from her anyway, even though it appears that she can flit in and out of everything else he does?

* What we didn't know prior to the Day of the Doctor, was the decision to destroy Gallifrey as a bid to end the Time War was so traumatic for the Doctor that he created an amnesia about the whole regeneration in his mind (And possibly locked it out of the rest of his timestream as best he could).  Clara wouldn't have been able to pick it up from 11s thoughts because 9-11 had deliberately forgotten about it.

* Clara jumped into the Doctors time stream and fragmented along it specifically to track and repair the damage that the Great Intelligence was doing to reverse "all the good" event that the Doctor had been involved with.  She wouldn't have seen Hurt in any of those tracks because he was probably doing enough damage to his own reputation that the GI didn't see a need to sabotage any of his actions.

* Its possible that Clara only saw the faces that the Great Intelligence itself was aware of.


But Clara was clearly shown with many other Doctors.  So they all forgot Hurt Doctor as well?  Remember that they are all aware of his presence at the end of Day.  And, for that matter, when is a timestream determined by someone's memories?  And it is clear that the Hurt Doctor did good things as well ... even so, will the GI try to undo his work with the Tenth and Eleventh?  What happened to the GI?  When you extrapolate and theorize on a bad plot, you just end up with more questions.
 
2013-11-27 05:12:31 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: If you can accept the Dalek fleet (and then their reinforcements) blowing each other up and wiping out (almost) their entire race, then you're a Moffat homer.


When you time freeze an object the size of a planet it releases an amount of energy comparable to a collapsing black hole. That's just basic temporal physics.
 
2013-11-27 05:13:51 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Yes, this whole time, Moffat has to reconcile two things: the Daleks are deadly and also quite smart, and that they were almost all eliminated in the war.  So: move the planet and they'll keep shooting until almost all of them are dead?  Huh?  Not one Dalek would say: hey, let's stop shooting each other?


Well, like I said in my earlier reply to you...

Granted they'd stop firing as soon as they figured out what was going on, and granted there'd be a lot of ships that survived. But keep in mind that 1) the volume of fire going on from that volume of ships would so some pretty serious damage before they worked it out, and 2) it's not remotely clear how long it would take to do so. Gallifrey didn't just disappear. There was a big build-up, and a flash, and then a cut-away. There could have been a big ball of wibbley-wobbly, timey-wimey dust or something that obscured the Daleks' view of each other while mass casualties were inflicted. Not all of them would have been killed, but then we already knew that was the case from all the Dalek stories since 2005.

If you want to get right down to it, the flaw is much bigger than the crossfire issue. For the climactic battle as shown in "The Day of the Doctor" to work at all, every Time Lord and every Dalek would have to have been at Gallifrey that day. No other battle fronts anywhere else in the universe, which we know isn't true from the comments in "The Night of the Doctor" about the damage the war was inflicting. It's patently ridiculous.
 
2013-11-27 05:17:55 PM  

Dingleberry Dickwad: 100 Watt Walrus: 2) The episode ends with the Doctor saying, "At last I know where I'm going, where I've always been going: Home...the long way around." Um, no. The Doctor has been running away from home all his adult life. He's never had any interest in going home. Or at least not in going home to a society run by the Time Lords. People have complained about some of the retcon in this episode, but none of it holds a candle to the idea that the Doctor would be at all keen to go home.

Mind you this is just my opinion on this but I would think the guilt of thinking he destroyed his entire race and planet might make him a bit nostalgic for home. Not to mention that despite how bad Gallifrey had been to him on occasion, it's still home. And considering everything that's happened it's possible he's thinking that he can bring about some change now that the planet has seen what happens when they get to cocky, arrogant and dickish. Add in the relief at he didn't really destroy his planet and entire race and I could see where he'd want to at the very least check things out even if he doesn't want to stick around and become President again. Granted as much as I think Moffat's an ok showrunner I don't know that he'd go that deep with the character, but it's a thought.


I get that he might have a renewed interest in going home, but that's not what he says. He says...

"At last I know where I'm going, where I've always been going: Home...the long way around."
 
2013-11-27 05:21:11 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: But Clara was clearly shown with many other Doctors.  So they all forgot Hurt Doctor as well?  Remember that they are all aware of his presence at the end of Day.  And, for that matter, when is a timestream determined by someone's memories?  And it is clear that the Hurt Doctor did good things as well ... even so, will the GI try to undo his work with the Tenth and Eleventh?  What happened to the GI?  When you extrapolate and theorize on a bad plot, you just end up with more questions.


For god's sake. The time war was time locked. Those events were inaccessible.
 
2013-11-27 05:23:44 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: Dingleberry Dickwad: 100 Watt Walrus: 2) The episode ends with the Doctor saying, "At last I know where I'm going, where I've always been going: Home...the long way around." Um, no. The Doctor has been running away from home all his adult life. He's never had any interest in going home. Or at least not in going home to a society run by the Time Lords. People have complained about some of the retcon in this episode, but none of it holds a candle to the idea that the Doctor would be at all keen to go home.

Mind you this is just my opinion on this but I would think the guilt of thinking he destroyed his entire race and planet might make him a bit nostalgic for home. Not to mention that despite how bad Gallifrey had been to him on occasion, it's still home. And considering everything that's happened it's possible he's thinking that he can bring about some change now that the planet has seen what happens when they get to cocky, arrogant and dickish. Add in the relief at he didn't really destroy his planet and entire race and I could see where he'd want to at the very least check things out even if he doesn't want to stick around and become President again. Granted as much as I think Moffat's an ok showrunner I don't know that he'd go that deep with the character, but it's a thought.

I get that he might have a renewed interest in going home, but that's not what he says. He says...

"At last I know where I'm going, where I've always been going: Home...the long way around."


Which, I think, you could read as him realizing that home was where he's always longed to be, even if he wasn't aware of it consciously.  But I agree, it's a bit awkward.
 
2013-11-27 05:24:21 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: I get that he might have a renewed interest in going home, but that's not what he says. He says...

"At last I know where I'm going, where I've always been going: Home...the long way around."


That describes a really awesome sojourn in which you return home.
 
2013-11-27 05:26:24 PM  

Pentaxian: 100 Watt Walrus: You're "no fan," but you have an opinion on Eccleston and know the souffle reference?

So, was Baker a prat for not doing the 20th?

I know sometimes in Farkistan there is a belief something is either awesome or an anathema. I don't hate the show like I hate Beiber, Kris Jenner, and creationists.

I don't runt out the room when my family has marathon Doctor Who session going on. My desire to do something together as simple as watching a TV show together outweighs my boredom with the show. Besides, I know my wife feels the same way when my daughter and I watch MST3K.

I don't know what was going on between Baker and BBC at the time but it looks like he never cut himself totally off anything Doctor Who.


At the time of the 20th he had. Baker flat-out refused to participate in any way. Now, he'd had a good experience with "Doctor Who" until his last season. Eccleston, on the other hand, didn't have a good experience. I understand that for millions of other people, "Doctor Who" means a lot, and it would have meant a lot to them if he'd chipped in, even a little. But he didn't like the job. He moved on. He didn't want to look back, for whatever reason. So be it. Why judge the guy when you have no idea what he reasons were, or what the conversation was regarding his potential participation - or even if there was such a conversation. He didn't participate. So what? The episode was still good. Who cares?
 
2013-11-27 05:28:00 PM  

bborchar: 100 Watt Walrus: Southernmost Farker: I don't want to sound like a nerd but, i am on fark and this is a Doctor Who thread... so i suppose the cat is out of the bag. I've watched the 50th like 4 or 5 times sinced it aired and once again Moffat proves he's brilliant. Jenna Coleman and Matt Smith were great too. I am excited for Peter Capaldi, but really nobody is going to miss 11?

Moffat often seems brilliant at first blush, but having seen it 4 or 5 times you should have noticed by now that there are some significant problems, not the least of which is that the Zygon storyline was just flat-out abandoned.

I think Smith is fantastic, but I won't miss him as such. I'm completely gung-ho for Capaldi.

It wasn't 'abadoned', it was 'resolved'.

There's a difference :p


If by 'resolved,' you mean the Zygons and the humans in that room appeared to be just about to begin negotiations, then sure. But that's a completely different definition of "resolved" than I've ever heard.
 
2013-11-27 05:32:51 PM  

Magruda: whizbangthedirtfarmer: Magruda: whizbangthedirtfarmer: why did she appear to have no memory of the War Doctor? Weird.

Go back and rewatch Name of the Doctor.

What exactly are you referring to?  She splinters, and goes through time to "save" all of the Doctors ... if they listen to her.  So why doesn't she know/remember War Doctor?  I must be missing something, then?

Go back and watch it at about 42 minutes in. I'll paraphrase, "Who is that? Why don't i know him? I saw all of your faces." "Let me explain that to you."


I think the question is why she had no memory of him in this episode which seemingly takes place after the events in "The Name of the Doctor." Wouldn't she remember having met him at the end of that story?

Now, I grant you that she may not have remembered him, since Smith says basically the same thing her her in "The Day of the Doctor" as he did in "The Name of the Doctor," which was something about being the part of his past he doesn't talk about. So it seems she doesn't remember. But why she doesn't remember should have been explained.
 
2013-11-27 05:34:20 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: whizbangthedirtfarmer: Yes, this whole time, Moffat has to reconcile two things: the Daleks are deadly and also quite smart, and that they were almost all eliminated in the war.  So: move the planet and they'll keep shooting until almost all of them are dead?  Huh?  Not one Dalek would say: hey, let's stop shooting each other?

Well, like I said in my earlier reply to you...

Granted they'd stop firing as soon as they figured out what was going on, and granted there'd be a lot of ships that survived. But keep in mind that 1) the volume of fire going on from that volume of ships would so some pretty serious damage before they worked it out, and 2) it's not remotely clear how long it would take to do so. Gallifrey didn't just disappear. There was a big build-up, and a flash, and then a cut-away. There could have been a big ball of wibbley-wobbly, timey-wimey dust or something that obscured the Daleks' view of each other while mass casualties were inflicted. Not all of them would have been killed, but then we already knew that was the case from all the Dalek stories since 2005.

If you want to get right down to it, the flaw is much bigger than the crossfire issue. For the climactic battle as shown in "The Day of the Doctor" to work at all, every Time Lord and every Dalek would have to have been at Gallifrey that day. No other battle fronts anywhere else in the universe, which we know isn't true from the comments in "The Night of the Doctor" about the damage the war was inflicting. It's patently ridiculous.


Well, that, too, but you're extrapolating.  From what we've seen, the planet simply ... disappeared.  So, if the Daleks had primitive enough systems and a certain amount of stupidity, then, yes, I suppose we could say they all wiped each other out.  And then the reinforcements wiped each other out, too.  Basically, to reconcile the situation (and as you rightfully point out, a war across all of time and space shouldn't really be confined to one planet), you have to either a) agree that the Daleks are incredibly stupid, or b) that the 2005 reboot has been retconned out the wazoo.
 
2013-11-27 05:34:41 PM  

Mentat: 100 Watt Walrus: Mentat: Based on the War Doctor's interactions with Ten and Eleven, I suspect that Twelve will be more of a traditional grownup Doctor.

/Timey-wimey?

You may be right, but what does the War Doctor's interactions with those two have to do with how Capaldi will play his Doctor? I don't see the connection.

The War Doctor (and most of his predecessors) were more "grown up" in their mentalities and worldviews.  After the war, the Doctors reverted in many ways to more child-like personas, as if they were metaphorically trying to run away from their past.  The War Doctor made several snide comments about how immature and goofy they were before finally accepting them as great men.  With the trauma of the war finally conquered and with no more need to run away, I think a more mature Doctor can emerge again.


Ahhhh. Okey doke.
 
2013-11-27 05:36:08 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: Magruda: whizbangthedirtfarmer: Magruda: whizbangthedirtfarmer: why did she appear to have no memory of the War Doctor? Weird.

Go back and rewatch Name of the Doctor.

What exactly are you referring to?  She splinters, and goes through time to "save" all of the Doctors ... if they listen to her.  So why doesn't she know/remember War Doctor?  I must be missing something, then?

Go back and watch it at about 42 minutes in. I'll paraphrase, "Who is that? Why don't i know him? I saw all of your faces." "Let me explain that to you."

I think the question is why she had no memory of him in this episode which seemingly takes place after the events in "The Name of the Doctor." Wouldn't she remember having met him at the end of that story?

Now, I grant you that she may not have remembered him, since Smith says basically the same thing her her in "The Day of the Doctor" as he did in "The Name of the Doctor," which was something about being the part of his past he doesn't talk about. So it seems she doesn't remember. But why she doesn't remember should have been explained.


And, again, Moffat has been clear that memories and timestreams are two different things.  Until he needs them to be the same.  So, if Clara is using his timestream (as he insinuates) to find the Doctor, then she should already know about the Hurt Doctor.  His entire existence was not timelocked; just that one moment, and, from what we saw in Night, the Hurt Doctor had a very long time before getting into the Time War himself.
 
2013-11-27 05:38:18 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: Pentaxian: 100 Watt Walrus: You're "no fan," but you have an opinion on Eccleston and know the souffle reference?

So, was Baker a prat for not doing the 20th?

I know sometimes in Farkistan there is a belief something is either awesome or an anathema. I don't hate the show like I hate Beiber, Kris Jenner, and creationists.

I don't runt out the room when my family has marathon Doctor Who session going on. My desire to do something together as simple as watching a TV show together outweighs my boredom with the show. Besides, I know my wife feels the same way when my daughter and I watch MST3K.

I don't know what was going on between Baker and BBC at the time but it looks like he never cut himself totally off anything Doctor Who.

At the time of the 20th he had. Baker flat-out refused to participate in any way. Now, he'd had a good experience with "Doctor Who" until his last season. Eccleston, on the other hand, didn't have a good experience. I understand that for millions of other people, "Doctor Who" means a lot, and it would have meant a lot to them if he'd chipped in, even a little. But he didn't like the job. He moved on. He didn't want to look back, for whatever reason. So be it. Why judge the guy when you have no idea what he reasons were, or what the conversation was regarding his potential participation - or even if there was such a conversation. He didn't participate. So what? The episode was still good. Who cares?


Pretty much this (though Moffat did confirm a conversation did happen).  For all we know, Eccleston is totally justified in his behavior.

100 Watt Walrus: If by 'resolved,' you mean the Zygons and the humans in that room appeared to be just about to begin negotiations, then sure. But that's a completely different definition of "resolved" than I've ever heard.


To me the implication was that they successfully completed negotiations, since the Doctors said nobody was leaving until they did.  But yeah, that was absolutely brushed aside quickly.  I didn't honestly mind since the Zygon plot was really just a MacGuffin to reinforce the idea that the Doctors needed to find another way to end the Time War.
 
2013-11-27 05:40:03 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: from what we saw in Night, the Hurt Doctor had a very long time before getting into the Time War himself.


How do you deduce that?  I thought the implication was that he became a warrior and dove into the Time War immediately after regenerating.
 
2013-11-27 05:44:02 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: Dingleberry Dickwad: That Reilly Monster: I'm not getting the frustration with the Zygon story being dropped.  To me it was important to the story, but it wasn't the story itself.  It was important because the War Doctor needed to see 10/11 (12/13?) solve the issue which was indicative of the type of man he would become as a result of destroying his own people.  After that he decided that the horrid act was worth it because the universe was a better place with a remorseful Doctor running around (something along the lines of "How many worlds has his regret saved?").  After he had resigned himself to being the black sheep of the Doctor lineage (great men are forged in fire, it is the privilege of lesser men to light the flame) the story followed him, as well it should.  What impact would it have had on the story to find out that UNIT awarded Greenland to the Zygons as a safe haven?  It didn't matter any more, it wasn't relevant to the War Doctor's story which was, IMHO, the main story.

I'm kind of baffled by that as well. The Zygons weren't the plot, they were an accessory to the actual plot which was the Doctor's involvement with the Time War. They were there as you said so Hurt's Doctor could see what his future selves become and so that they could give the Doctors an idea on how to end the Time War without destroying Gallifrey.  We know all we really need to know about the Zygons. They were working peacefully with the humans to come to a truce. I can understand a little bit of frustration that when Tennant and Smith showed up to meet Hurt before he used the Moment and they didn't at least say something like "The Zygons have agreed to leave humanity in peace and stay in human form and become part of society" or something of that nature, but it's not all that important at that part of the story.

Exactly. The plot was resolved, not abandoned. Just because it looked like Tennant and Smith immediately followed the War Doctor back to the Moment, that doesn't mean it didn't take hours and hours for them to finish the peace treaty between the Zygons and humans.


It was the major B story of the episode. I get that where the story was left seemed to be headed toward resolution - insomuch as someone who's not authorized to speak for the entire Earth was just about to sit down at a table with someone who represents a species that wants the Earth for themselves, which had been heavily invested in taking over the Earth for centuries, and for whom Lethbridge-Stewart has no viable alternatives to offer. So how is that "resolved" even a little bit?

All that would have been needed was a 10-second scene just before the gallery finale, in which the Doctor pops back in, assumes everything is settled, and says to the Zygons, "So, on which other planet am I helping you folks settle now that you're leaving Earth."

But instead we got a loose end.
 
2013-11-27 05:58:16 PM  

Samwise Gamgee: cheer: Samwise Gamgee: What would it have done if it didn't gain sentience? That's what I'm asking. What was it supposed to do?

The implication was that it, at the very least, would be capable of wiping out two races utterly.  I realize they didn't give us detailed specs, but was that really needed?

 Yes, I think it's important to know what the implications of its use are, to elucidate just how desperate the Doctor had become. Does it wipe Gallifrey and the Daleks from history altogether, or just blow them up real good, or what? And since Hurt-Doctor isn't going to remember the events of DOTD, what exactly does he THINK he did to Gallifrey? They've said things in the past about how he 'burned' Gallifrey, etc. Without knowing exactly what the Moment does it's hard to say what exactly is at stake, and gauge the dramatic importance of what the Doctor (thinks he) did.


The Moment (non-sentient version) is a MacGuffin. It doesn't matter exactly what it was capable of any more than it matters what's in the suitcase in "Pulp Fiction." The Moment was a weapon of such horrific proportions that despite the fact that the Time Lords has used all their other worst weapons, they hadn't resorting to using The Moment, because it was that much worse. If that's not enough for you to understand how much of a bad-news last resort it would be, I don't know what to tell you.
 
2013-11-27 06:01:16 PM  

Magruda: whizbangthedirtfarmer: If you can accept the Dalek fleet (and then their reinforcements) blowing each other up and wiping out (almost) their entire race, then you're a Moffat homer.

When you time freeze an object the size of a planet it releases an amount of energy comparable to a collapsing black hole. That's just basic temporal physics.


Now you're just making stuff up.
 
2013-11-27 06:10:14 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Well, that, too, but you're extrapolating.  From what we've seen, the planet simply ... disappeared.  So, if the Daleks had primitive enough systems and a certain amount of stupidity, then, yes, I suppose we could say they all wiped each other out.  And then the reinforcements wiped each other out, too.  Basically, to reconcile the situation (and as you rightfully point out, a war across all of time and space shouldn't really be confined to one planet), you have to either a) agree that the Daleks are incredibly stupid, or b) that the 2005 reboot has been retconned out the wazoo.


I disagree. The way I (choose to) read the events is that in the excitement of realizing they can save Gallifrey, the Doctor(s) didn't really think through the whole Daleks-wipe-each-other-out thing (although I will grant you that it's a monumentally stupid mistake for him to make). One result of the disappearance of Gallifrey - be it by crossfire, gravity well disappearing, or timey-wimey nonesense - is that the Dalek fleet was largely wiped out, but not the Dalek race, as is well evidenced by their many appearances sicne 2005. As as I mentioned upthread, it's pretty ridiculous to think, based on the events in "The Day of the Doctor," that all the Time Lords and all the Daleks would be wiped out under the circumstances shown. Certainly, there would be many of both species in other places around the universe.

That's actually the larger problem with the events as they now stand. How could the Doctor be - or even suspect he was - the last living Time Lord? He's even said that if there were other living Time Lords, he'd feel it. So there's your bigger hole right there: Are we to believe every living time lord was on Gallifrey during that battle?
 
2013-11-27 06:14:55 PM  

cheer: whizbangthedirtfarmer: from what we saw in Night, the Hurt Doctor had a very long time before getting into the Time War himself.

How do you deduce that?  I thought the implication was that he became a warrior and dove into the Time War immediately after regenerating.


Nope.  In Night, it is clear that Hurt Doctor is much older.  The events of the Time War are occurring, but it appears he didn't timelock events until Gallifrey started to fall.
 
2013-11-27 06:16:09 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: And, again, Moffat has been clear that memories and timestreams are two different things.  Until he needs them to be the same.  So, if Clara is using his timestream (as he insinuates) to find the Doctor, then she should already know about the Hurt Doctor.  His entire existence was not timelocked; just that one moment, and, from what we saw in Night, the Hurt Doctor had a very long time before getting into the Time War himself.


That's more pedantic than I choose to be, I'm afraid. There could be many reasons she didn't see/recognize/realize the Hurt character while in the Doctor's time stream. Maybe she just hadn't come across him yet. Maybe because the Doctor had chosen to block him from his memory, he was hidden within the timestream, and Smith jumping into it himself shook Hurt loose. To me, that's not a failing, it's just something not fully explained. It's not like some of the other issues discussed in this thread which are loose threads (Zygons) or plot holes (crossfire). There isn't, to me anyway, a "yeah, but..." for this point. It's more of a "Hmmmm..."

/if that makes any sense
 
2013-11-27 06:19:47 PM  

100 Watt Walrus:  He's even said that if there were other living Time Lords, he'd feel it.


 How does that work, anyway? What if a Time Lord was alive in a different year than the one he's currently visiting? What if a Time Lord fled the war and went to, say, the year 6,000 BC. Can he feel them across time as well as space?

 Also, is ALL of Gallifrey's history time-locked, or just the war?
 
2013-11-27 06:21:14 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: cheer: whizbangthedirtfarmer: from what we saw in Night, the Hurt Doctor had a very long time before getting into the Time War himself.

How do you deduce that?  I thought the implication was that he became a warrior and dove into the Time War immediately after regenerating.

Nope.  In Night, it is clear that Hurt Doctor is much older.  The events of the Time War are occurring, but it appears he didn't timelock events until Gallifrey started to fall.


He didn't timelock the events until Gallifrey started to fall, but it's made very clear at least twice that he spent that entire incarnation fighting in the Time War. McGann's Doctor chose to become a warrior in his next regen, the Time War was raging around them. Hurt's reflection in the end of "The Night of the Doctor" is a much younger man than he is at the end of the Time War. As we've seen from Matt Smith's run, the Doctor doesn't (or doesn't have to anyway) age very quickly. So the War Doctor spent at least 30 or 40 years (if he ages like a human), or several hundred years (if he ages like Smith's Doctor) fighting the Time War.
 
2013-11-27 06:25:08 PM  

Samwise Gamgee: 100 Watt Walrus:  He's even said that if there were other living Time Lords, he'd feel it.

 How does that work, anyway? What if a Time Lord was alive in a different year than the one he's currently visiting? What if a Time Lord fled the war and went to, say, the year 6,000 BC. Can he feel them across time as well as space?

 Also, is ALL of Gallifrey's history time-locked, or just the war?


Yeah, that "I'd feel it" thing was pretty shaky. As for the time tock, it was just the War - and not all of the war since there are mentions throughout NuWho of races whose planets were lost in the Time War.
 
2013-11-27 06:52:45 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: cheer: whizbangthedirtfarmer: from what we saw in Night, the Hurt Doctor had a very long time before getting into the Time War himself.

How do you deduce that?  I thought the implication was that he became a warrior and dove into the Time War immediately after regenerating.

Nope.  In Night, it is clear that Hurt Doctor is much older.  The events of the Time War are occurring, but it appears he didn't timelock events until Gallifrey started to fall.


Yeah, except in the events of Night that he specifically states that he wants to become a warrior to be able to fight the Time War. You see a somewhat bad reflection after the regen that looks like a younger version of hurt, like maybe in his late 30s as opposed to looking like he's in his 60s when we're being shown the end of the Time War. He may not have time locked things in the beginning of the war, but given his attitude and his weariness it's kind of implied he's been fighting the Time War all that time.
 
2013-11-27 07:17:07 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: whizbangthedirtfarmer: And, again, Moffat has been clear that memories and timestreams are two different things.  Until he needs them to be the same.  So, if Clara is using his timestream (as he insinuates) to find the Doctor, then she should already know about the Hurt Doctor.  His entire existence was not timelocked; just that one moment, and, from what we saw in Night, the Hurt Doctor had a very long time before getting into the Time War himself.

That's more pedantic than I choose to be, I'm afraid. There could be many reasons she didn't see/recognize/realize the Hurt character while in the Doctor's time stream. Maybe she just hadn't come across him yet. Maybe because the Doctor had chosen to block him from his memory, he was hidden within the timestream, and Smith jumping into it himself shook Hurt loose. To me, that's not a failing, it's just something not fully explained. It's not like some of the other issues discussed in this thread which are loose threads (Zygons) or plot holes (crossfire). There isn't, to me anyway, a "yeah, but..." for this point. It's more of a "Hmmmm..."

/if that makes any sense


Eh, you're right, but it's certainly problematic to a greater degree, and I would classify it very much as a loose thread.  Moffat took a big gamble by creating a companion who could (supposedly) view and visit all Doctors.  It rather undermines much of the show's history, and he tried to circumvent it by saying "oh, sometimes he doesn't listen to me."

For Day, I just didn't see how Clara could be stunned.  It was pretty clear that Hurt Doctor was only really affected by the use of the Moment--he hid on a distant planet, and think of all the Time Lord children!  I would be more convinced that the whole series of circumstances were time locked if we saw, say, the Hurt Doctor blowing up a Dalek world or something like that.

\even worse than creating a protector companion was making her completely bland
 
2013-11-27 07:18:17 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: cheer: whizbangthedirtfarmer: from what we saw in Night, the Hurt Doctor had a very long time before getting into the Time War himself.

How do you deduce that?  I thought the implication was that he became a warrior and dove into the Time War immediately after regenerating.

Nope.  In Night, it is clear that Hurt Doctor is much older.  The events of the Time War are occurring, but it appears he didn't timelock events until Gallifrey started to fall.


I have no idea what you're talking about.  Hurt was YOUNGER in Night of the Doctor than he was in TDOTD.  He only just regenerated!  How can you know what he does immediately afterwards?
 
2013-11-27 07:19:17 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: Samwise Gamgee: 100 Watt Walrus:  He's even said that if there were other living Time Lords, he'd feel it.

 How does that work, anyway? What if a Time Lord was alive in a different year than the one he's currently visiting? What if a Time Lord fled the war and went to, say, the year 6,000 BC. Can he feel them across time as well as space?

 Also, is ALL of Gallifrey's history time-locked, or just the war?

Yeah, that "I'd feel it" thing was pretty shaky. As for the time tock, it was just the War - and not all of the war since there are mentions throughout NuWho of races whose planets were lost in the Time War.


The fact that the Time War was time-locked doesn't mean it didn't have consequences; all I understood the time-lock to mean was that time travelers couldn't go back to those events.
 
2013-11-27 08:11:15 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Eh, you're right, but it's certainly problematic to a greater degree, and I would classify it very much as a loose thread.  Moffat took a big gamble by creating a companion who could (supposedly) view and visit all Doctors.  It rather undermines much of the show's history, and he tried to circumvent it by saying "oh, sometimes he doesn't listen to me."


Wait, what? In Name Of The Doctor, Clara's voiceover made it extremely clear that the Doctor usually doesn't know she's there. Usually the incarnations are just keeping the Great Intelligence from screwing with what the Doctor has already done. The Dalek Asylum and Victorian London were exceptions, not the normal circumstances. She was never supposed to be a retconned companion-of-all-Doctors.

For Day, I just didn't see how Clara could be stunned.  It was pretty clear that Hurt Doctor was only really affected by the use of the Moment--he hid on a distant planet, and think of all the Time Lord children!  I would be more convinced that the whole series of circumstances were time locked if we saw, say, the Hurt Doctor blowing up a Dalek world or something like that.

We have no idea what he did. As has been pointed out, he aged noticeably between Night and Day. He may have spent hundreds of years fighting the Daleks, or even fighting Time Lords who were sacrificing other worlds.

There is still quite a bit that hasn't been addressed. The endless argument about how the Daleks would just shoot each other ignores the other half... why would every Time Lord in time and space have been on Gallifrey during The Moment? It's clear that there is still quite a bit more to the Time War story... just don't know if it's something the TV series is going to address before it moves on. 


stellarossa: There's no good reason he can't. It would be a lot more fun if Capaldi could meet up with a prior incarnation for half a series or so. There have been so many opportunities when this would have been fun and, fanwank notwithstanding, it would have tied together Old and Nu.


The huge response to Night Of The Doctor proves that the fans want to see more Eighth Doctor. I doubt it's high on BBC's priority list, but nothing is ever out of the question.

At the very least, I'm hoping Big Finish Productions will show us what the Eighth Doctor was doing during the Time War, once they finish Dark Eyes. It would be interesting to see the effects of the Time War even without seeing the actual conflict. I imagine his efforts were focused on saving what history he could.
 
2013-11-27 08:20:55 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Magruda: whizbangthedirtfarmer: Some of us prefer to have sci-fi in which the writer or showrunner gives enough of a damn to bother to follow some sort of logic or reason.  I'm not expecting a lot, but they should hold up beyond just a few seconds of interrogation, or even within the moment itself

Agreed, but you are just nitpicking.

Massive plotholes are not nitpicking.  If you can accept the Dalek fleet (and then their reinforcements) blowing each other up and wiping out (almost) their entire race, then you're a Moffat homer.


First of all, there were no reinforcements coming at that point.  Tennant's Doctor IIRC had stated if the Daleks knew that there were three Doctors there they definitely would've called for massive reinforcements to destroy all of Gallifrey before the three of them could come up with something.

Second of all, if you freeze something at a moment in time (i.e. a split-second), no one's gonna know something happened until it's too late to prevent it from happening.  You know, inertia.

I'm willing to give Moffat some credit; he has done a good job with the show and has done some pretty awesome things (Tom Baker, for one).  But let's not give the guy a free pass.  He's done some awful things, too, so awful in fact, that even DWM has had a hard time following or enjoying the last season.

Oh definitely, but TDOTD was fun and moved the Doctor's story into a new phase.
 
2013-11-27 09:20:26 PM  

cheer: 100 Watt Walrus: Pentaxian: 100 Watt Walrus: You're "no fan," but you have an opinion on Eccleston and know the souffle reference?

So, was Baker a prat for not doing the 20th?

I know sometimes in Farkistan there is a belief something is either awesome or an anathema. I don't hate the show like I hate Beiber, Kris Jenner, and creationists.

I don't runt out the room when my family has marathon Doctor Who session going on. My desire to do something together as simple as watching a TV show together outweighs my boredom with the show. Besides, I know my wife feels the same way when my daughter and I watch MST3K.

I don't know what was going on between Baker and BBC at the time but it looks like he never cut himself totally off anything Doctor Who.

At the time of the 20th he had. Baker flat-out refused to participate in any way. Now, he'd had a good experience with "Doctor Who" until his last season. Eccleston, on the other hand, didn't have a good experience. I understand that for millions of other people, "Doctor Who" means a lot, and it would have meant a lot to them if he'd chipped in, even a little. But he didn't like the job. He moved on. He didn't want to look back, for whatever reason. So be it. Why judge the guy when you have no idea what he reasons were, or what the conversation was regarding his potential participation - or even if there was such a conversation. He didn't participate. So what? The episode was still good. Who cares?

Pretty much this (though Moffat did confirm a conversation did happen).  For all we know, Eccleston is totally justified in his behavior.

100 Watt Walrus: If by 'resolved,' you mean the Zygons and the humans in that room appeared to be just about to begin negotiations, then sure. But that's a completely different definition of "resolved" than I've ever heard.

To me the implication was that they successfully completed negotiations, since the Doctors said nobody was leaving until they did.  But yeah, that was absolutely brushed aside quickly.  I didn't honestly mind since the Zygon plot was really just a MacGuffin to reinforce the idea that the Doctors needed to find another way to end the Time War.


Sorry, for a show that prides itself on continuity and plot, completely abandoning the B story isn't acceptable. It's sloppy writing, and shows how little the show runner cares.

"Because it's a MacGuffin" is a poor excuse, but actually pretty typical of the last two seasons, which threw away the majority of episodes, in favor of a last minute teaser at the end.
 
2013-11-27 09:36:33 PM  

Hebalo: It's sloppy writing, and shows how little the show runner cares.


Bullsh*t.  OK, you want to say the writing is poor, fine, that's cool.  I might disagree, but taste is a funny thing.

But the remark about caring is stupid and baseless.  Moffat is a passionate fan of the show.  There's no doubt in my mind that he feels he's putting everything he can into his writing.

You want to criticize, go for it, but it's pretty easy to do so without resorting to insults, don't you think?
 
2013-11-27 10:07:59 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: bborchar: 100 Watt Walrus: Southernmost Farker: I don't want to sound like a nerd but, i am on fark and this is a Doctor Who thread... so i suppose the cat is out of the bag. I've watched the 50th like 4 or 5 times sinced it aired and once again Moffat proves he's brilliant. Jenna Coleman and Matt Smith were great too. I am excited for Peter Capaldi, but really nobody is going to miss 11?

Moffat often seems brilliant at first blush, but having seen it 4 or 5 times you should have noticed by now that there are some significant problems, not the least of which is that the Zygon storyline was just flat-out abandoned.

I think Smith is fantastic, but I won't miss him as such. I'm completely gung-ho for Capaldi.

It wasn't 'abadoned', it was 'resolved'.

There's a difference :p

If by 'resolved,' you mean the Zygons and the humans in that room appeared to be just about to begin negotiations, then sure. But that's a completely different definition of "resolved" than I've ever heard.


What?  You want to watch all of the negotiations and see the peace treaty signed?

Seriously?
 
2013-11-27 11:10:46 PM  

cheer: Hebalo: It's sloppy writing, and shows how little the show runner cares.

Bullsh*t.  OK, you want to say the writing is poor, fine, that's cool.  I might disagree, but taste is a funny thing.

But the remark about caring is stupid and baseless.  Moffat is a passionate fan of the show.  There's no doubt in my mind that he feels he's putting everything he can into his writing.

You want to criticize, go for it, but it's pretty easy to do so without resorting to insults, don't you think?


Moffat cares about making fanboys squee, but not about a solid script. At least not these days.
 
2013-11-27 11:27:51 PM  

Hebalo: cheer: Hebalo: It's sloppy writing, and shows how little the show runner cares.

Bullsh*t.  OK, you want to say the writing is poor, fine, that's cool.  I might disagree, but taste is a funny thing.

But the remark about caring is stupid and baseless.  Moffat is a passionate fan of the show.  There's no doubt in my mind that he feels he's putting everything he can into his writing.

You want to criticize, go for it, but it's pretty easy to do so without resorting to insults, don't you think?

Moffat cares about making fanboys squee, but not about a solid script. At least not these days.


Ah, OK, you're in his head, then?  Did you even read what I wrote?

That's OK.  You've got an axe to grind, and like so many people, you can't do it without being a dick about it.  I get it.  It's the Internet, after all.
 
2013-11-27 11:31:43 PM  

Hebalo: Sorry, for a show that prides itself on continuity and plot, completely abandoning the B story isn't acceptable. It's sloppy writing, and shows how little the show runner cares.

"Because it's a MacGuffin" is a poor excuse, but actually pretty typical of the last two seasons, which threw away the majority of episodes, in favor of a last minute teaser at the end.



Have we been watching the same show? I mean sure there's some continuity in some very specific aspects but it's a show where one of the main aspects is the ability to time travel. Continuity is mostly a suggestion with a few exceptions. Plot? Again have you watched the show? The plots for the show have always fluctuated between weak and good, usually hovering around average. Don't get me wrong, I love the show, but I also don't have any delusions about it the way some folks seem to.
 
2013-11-27 11:34:35 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Eh, you're right, but it's certainly problematic to a greater degree, and I would classify it very much as a loose thread.  Moffat took a big gamble by creating a companion who could (supposedly) view and visit all Doctors.  It rather undermines much of the show's history, and he tried to circumvent it by saying "oh, sometimes he doesn't listen to me."

For Day, I just didn't see how Clara could be stunned.  It was pretty clear that Hurt Doctor was only really affected by the use of the Moment--he hid on a distant planet, and think of all the Time Lord children!  I would be more convinced that the whole series of circumstances were time locked if we saw, say, the Hurt Doctor blowing up a Dalek world or something like that.

\even worse than creating a protector companion was making her completely bland


A couple points:

- I'm not sure how Clara being scattered throughout the Doctor's timeline undermines any of the show's history. But I do think it was stupid sticking her in the TARDIS docking bay to tell Hartnell which one to take. What isa problem is that the Claras from "Asylum" and "Snowmen" either don't know him, or are faking it, neither of which make sense, or at least it's not explained why some Clara iterations know him and are on a mission, while others don't and aren't.

- The War Doctor didn't hide "on a distant planet." I thought that at first too, but I think he's in a desert on Gallifrey, as he references the Daleks being overhead while they're there.
 
2013-11-27 11:52:32 PM  

bborchar: 100 Watt Walrus: If by 'resolved,' you mean the Zygons and the humans in that room appeared to be just about to begin negotiations, then sure. But that's a completely different definition of "resolved" than I've ever heard.

What?  You want to watch all of the negotiations and see the peace treaty signed?

Seriously?


Thanks for putting words in my mouth. And idiotic words to boot, as if there's no possible storytelling solution in between abandoning the B plot and to "watch all of the negotiations and see the peace treaty signed." That's ridiculous, and you know it.

As I noted upthread, the wrap-up could have been handled with a 10-second scene: Just before the gallery finale, the Doctor could have popped back into the room, assuming everything is settled, and say to the Zygons, "So, on which other planet am I helping you folks settle now that you're leaving Earth."

Instead, we have a loose thread.
 
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