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(IT World)   If you think there are too many female software engineers, boy do we have good news for you   (itworld.com) divider line 137
    More: Interesting, Current Population Survey, female software engineers, software development, software engineers  
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2766 clicks; posted to Geek » on 26 Nov 2013 at 12:50 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-26 11:09:42 AM  
A long time ago, when I was taking CS classes -I noted that among the foreigners enrolled the gender percentage was about 50/50. With Americans not so much.

Once later when I was drinking at a bar with someone who was majoring in "women's studies", it was pointed out  that women get paid significantly less than men. So in this case, why doesn't charity begin at home?

Later on, when working with a few women software engineers, I found that they were quite competent even though a few of them were prima donnas and particularly sensitive to criticisms of their work, which was required in software reviews and testing.
 
2013-11-26 11:21:39 AM  
img59.imageshack.us

talk nerdy to me
 
2013-11-26 11:26:23 AM  
About half the software engineers in my company are female.
 
2013-11-26 11:30:22 AM  

RedPhoenix122: About half the software engineers in my company are female.


Are the majority American, H1B or foreign born?
 
2013-11-26 11:34:47 AM  
 
2013-11-26 11:44:25 AM  

usernameguy: I can't imagine why.


So liking the opposite sex is now sexist. When women do it -it's rebellious and fun.
 
2013-11-26 11:49:50 AM  

Because People in power are Stupid: usernameguy: I can't imagine why.

So liking the opposite sex is now sexist. When women do it -it's rebellious and fun.


The word you're looking for is "empowering".
 
2013-11-26 12:00:11 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Because People in power are Stupid: usernameguy: I can't imagine why.

So liking the opposite sex is now sexist. When women do it -it's rebellious and fun.

The word you're looking for is "empowering".


But when men do it, it's just pathetic unless you are a famous actor, jock, insanely wealthy or someone that the women in general have an opinion about -then it's empowering because they empower you.
 
2013-11-26 12:00:33 PM  

usernameguy: I can't imagine why.


There are many reasons why women are under-represented in the field of software engineering.

That's not one of them.
 
2013-11-26 12:01:00 PM  
Its a sausage fest in my organization... 8 women and 77 men. All 8 are married with kids. There are more women in the administration side (our president is female) but its a dudes world for sure.
 
2013-11-26 12:01:48 PM  

RedPhoenix122: About half the software engineers in my company are female.


3/4 of the software engineers at my workplace are women.  All American.

Granted, there's only 4 programmers total, but still...
 
2013-11-26 12:07:41 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Because People in power are Stupid: usernameguy: I can't imagine why.

So liking the opposite sex is now sexist. When women do it -it's rebellious and fun.

The word you're looking for is "empowering".


What happened at the Disrupt conference was not about "liking the opposite sex."  Hackathons and similar competitions should be about meritocracy, and the best idea winning.  In the audience, was a 9 year old programmer who put together a fun little app called "Super Fun Kid Time."

Perfect time for "Titstare" and "Circle Shake" to be demoed!

I'm not a parent, and the world should not be sanitized for families, but there is a time and place for all that.  Also, there is a limited number of time and slots for the demos, so the fact those embarrassments got a chance to demo means that two apps (that may have been stupid, but at least a more serious attempt) did not get a chance to go through, get coverage, etc.
 
2013-11-26 12:09:36 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: But when men do it, it's just pathetic unless you are a famous actor, jock, insanely wealthy or someone that the women in general have an opinion about -then it's empowering because they empower you.


We are though the looking glass people.
 
2013-11-26 12:16:52 PM  

Etchy333: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Because People in power are Stupid: usernameguy: I can't imagine why.

So liking the opposite sex is now sexist. When women do it -it's rebellious and fun.

The word you're looking for is "empowering".

What happened at the Disrupt conference was not about "liking the opposite sex."  Hackathons and similar competitions should be about meritocracy, and the best idea winning.  In the audience, was a 9 year old programmer who put together a fun little app called "Super Fun Kid Time."

Perfect time for "Titstare" and "Circle Shake" to be demoed!

I'm not a parent, and the world should not be sanitized for families, but there is a time and place for all that.  Also, there is a limited number of time and slots for the demos, so the fact those embarrassments got a chance to demo means that two apps (that may have been stupid, but at least a more serious attempt) did not get a chance to go through, get coverage, etc.


What is actually more damaging to any 9 year old -is to treat the issue of expressive sexuality puritanically. Which is actually my point. This "empowering" feminism that decry's any expressed male experience of liking the opposite sex -is in fact conservative puritanism. If you don't believe me, then consider the support that Andrea Dworkin  and
Catharine MacKinnon for their re-definition of obscenity from christian fundamentalists.

But hey, we all have a little conservatism running in our veins... so why spoil a self righteous feeling? Boobstare BAD! Four legs good.
 
2013-11-26 12:44:32 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: If you don't believe me, then consider the support that Andrea Dworkin  and Catharine MacKinnon for their re-definition of obscenity from christian fundamentalists.


TechCrunch did not apologize due to pressure from external right wing Christian fundamentalists or any of the people you cited.  They apologized because the raunchy behavior was criticized sharply by their peers, it was objectively unprofessional, and it clashed with the overall spirit of what they are trying to promote.  The Christian fundamentalists or random d-list bloggers are not changing any tones in Silicon Valley or spoiling the fun.  When you have an audience and they don't react well to what you are putting out there, that's all on you.

Those presentations did not get a roomful of laughs from the audience, they got groans, nervous snickering, and people wondering when the trainwreck would be over.  If you're going to be edgy, fine be edgy.  But when you're not funny, and your audience is not receptive, blaming a vast right wing conspiracy or vague "puritanical" ideas about sex that we are all hopelessly brainwashed by (except for a few clear-minded übermensches like yourself) is stupid.
 
2013-11-26 12:52:30 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Because People in power are Stupid: But when men do it, it's just pathetic unless you are a famous actor, jock, insanely wealthy or someone that the women in general have an opinion about -then it's empowering because they empower you.

We are though the looking glass people.


This is exactly how "it" works. Ever wonder why male serial killers have "groupies" and why my nerdy friend Sam can't get a date? It's because the serial killers are publicly known figures and hence, women have "an opinion" about them. If a woman has an "opinion" about a particular male -it often means willingness to have sexual relations with them.

References:
 http://jss.sagepub.com/content/22/1/32.short
https://dspace.smith.edu/handle/11020/17280


The question is that when men express a sexual desire in general and women don't have "an opinion" about them. Those men are seen as unwanted interlopers. Their desires and expressions of sexual interest are not valued until an "opinion" is formed. This has lately been expressed as a generalized statement that male sexual interest is "misogyny" when it is anything but.
 
2013-11-26 12:52:58 PM  
http://femalesoftwareeng.tumblr.com/

It's funny because it hurts.
 
2013-11-26 12:54:58 PM  

Etchy333: Because People in power are Stupid: If you don't believe me, then consider the support that Andrea Dworkin  and Catharine MacKinnon for their re-definition of obscenity from christian fundamentalists.

TechCrunch did not apologize due to pressure from external right wing Christian fundamentalists or any of the people you cited.  They apologized because the raunchy behavior was criticized sharply by their peers, it was objectively unprofessional, and it clashed with the overall spirit of what they are trying to promote.  The Christian fundamentalists or random d-list bloggers are not changing any tones in Silicon Valley or spoiling the fun.  When you have an audience and they don't react well to what you are putting out there, that's all on you.

Those presentations did not get a roomful of laughs from the audience, they got groans, nervous snickering, and people wondering when the trainwreck would be over.  If you're going to be edgy, fine be edgy.  But when you're not funny, and your audience is not receptive, blaming a vast right wing conspiracy or vague "puritanical" ideas about sex that we are all hopelessly brainwashed by (except for a few clear-minded übermensches like yourself) is stupid.


Their peers in this case were a few harpies and gamma males.
 
2013-11-26 12:58:03 PM  
What about sandwich engineers?
 
2013-11-26 01:03:10 PM  
Oh, good, professional coders are now "software engineers".

That's maybe not  quite as insulting as calling a janitor a "waste management engineer", but we're getting pretty close there.

// Not like actual engineers have to be able to code  and learn actual science and design engineering or anything.
 
2013-11-26 01:07:18 PM  
I notice that TFA used GitHub for its data, but GitHub really representative of the general field of software engineering? There are a lot of people who are normally on TFA's side of these debates, but argue quite loudly that GitHub data is not a useful sample of the whole field. Most of their articles claim that GitHub's biases (or rather, the open-source community's bias) would create exactly the sort of skewed outcome that this article shows.

It's fun watching concerned sociologists eat each other.
 
2013-11-26 01:09:19 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Later on, when working with a few women software engineers, I found that they were quite competent even though a few of them were prima donnas and particularly sensitive to criticisms of their work, which was required in software reviews and testing.


Haha... let's be honest. Plenty of male programmers are prima donnas and sensitive to criticisms of their work. But I'll agree that most of the female programmers I've run into professionally do good quality work. I can think of only one that wasn't but she was obviously part of a staff cramming scam a consulting company was using to inflate their billable hours. They needed bodies in seats so ability in that situation didn't matter. All the other female developers I've met have been pretty solid.

What annoys me are the people who aren't programmers, have never been programmers, and have never made the slightest effort to become a programmer that whine about who is and isn't a programmer. Usually they're from a department like ad sales or public relations and are more upset about their job making less money than the software developers. They don't actually want to do the work involved, they just want to get the same rewards so they claim they would be a programmer but (insert external force that is anything except their personal motivation) is keeping them down.
 
2013-11-26 01:14:08 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Oh, good, professional coders are now "software engineers".

That's maybe not  quite as insulting as calling a janitor a "waste management engineer", but we're getting pretty close there.

// Not like actual engineers have to be able to code  and learn actual science and design engineering or anything.


I'm 100% for certification for software engineering.  It's not hard to write software that looks like it works, just like it's not hard to build a bridge that looks like it works.
 
2013-11-26 01:22:26 PM  
I actually never think about the numbers of female anything. But I sure am glad there are people out there very concerned about it.
 
2013-11-26 01:22:38 PM  
 
2013-11-26 01:32:30 PM  

Etchy333: Because People in power are Stupid: Their peers in this case were a few harpies and gamma males.


Even though I'm three hindered and eleven pounds, covered in cat hair and smell of old cheese -I make enough money to impress the ladies, ladies who like the smell of cheese.
 
2013-11-26 01:32:41 PM  

Millennium: I notice that TFA used GitHub for its data, but GitHub really representative of the general field of software engineering? There are a lot of people who are normally on TFA's side of these debates, but argue quite loudly that GitHub data is not a useful sample of the whole field. Most of their articles claim that GitHub's biases (or rather, the open-source community's bias) would create exactly the sort of skewed outcome that this article shows.

It's fun watching concerned sociologists eat each other.


TV show idea: Sociologist Island

13 sociologist of various ethnicities, sexual orientations, races, etc stuck on an island and the Rock hunts them down and crushes them in all of his Samoan glory
 
2013-11-26 01:33:15 PM  

Etchy333: Because People in power are Stupid: Their peers in this case were a few harpies and gamma males.


This venn diagram is an idealist fantasy.  There are plenty of misogynist farkwads out there.  And depressingly, there are plenty of women more than willing to sleep with them.
 
2013-11-26 01:34:51 PM  

Robin Hoodie: Millennium: I notice that TFA used GitHub for its data, but GitHub really representative of the general field of software engineering? There are a lot of people who are normally on TFA's side of these debates, but argue quite loudly that GitHub data is not a useful sample of the whole field. Most of their articles claim that GitHub's biases (or rather, the open-source community's bias) would create exactly the sort of skewed outcome that this article shows.

It's fun watching concerned sociologists eat each other.

TV show idea: Sociologist Island

13 sociologist of various ethnicities, sexual orientations, races, etc stuck on an island and the Rock hunts them down and crushes them in all of his Samoan glory


I would watch that show. Every re-run, behind the scenes episode, special. I would watch the hell out of it.
 
2013-11-26 01:35:26 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Oh, good, professional coders are now "software engineers".

That's maybe not  quite as insulting as calling a janitor a "waste management engineer", but we're getting pretty close there.

// Not like actual engineers have to be able to code  and learn actual science and design engineering or anything.


Sad to say after being around since the white shirt and black tie days that the incidence of throat beards, neck tattoos, constant casual Friday, and bandanas as head ware make it hard to really classify this as "professional" anymore.
 
2013-11-26 01:36:18 PM  
Ya well there is also a huge discrepancy in the amount female to male strippers and hooters waitresses but I don't see any men complaining.

Let us have IT FFS and stop trying to make this a thing.

Equality means equal opportunity it doesn't mean there will be equal numbers among the genders only that both genders have an equal opportunity for employment.
 
2013-11-26 01:43:11 PM  

commisioner: Robin Hoodie: Millennium: I notice that TFA used GitHub for its data, but GitHub really representative of the general field of software engineering? There are a lot of people who are normally on TFA's side of these debates, but argue quite loudly that GitHub data is not a useful sample of the whole field. Most of their articles claim that GitHub's biases (or rather, the open-source community's bias) would create exactly the sort of skewed outcome that this article shows.

It's fun watching concerned sociologists eat each other.

TV show idea: Sociologist Island

13 sociologist of various ethnicities, sexual orientations, races, etc stuck on an island and the Rock hunts them down and crushes them in all of his Samoan glory

I would watch that show. Every re-run, behind the scenes episode, special. I would watch the hell out of it.


The best part would be the sociologist councils where they try to figure out how to answer his riddle, "Do you smell what the Rock is cooking?" without offending him
 
2013-11-26 01:45:18 PM  

v2micca: Etchy333: Because People in power are Stupid: Their peers in this case were a few harpies and gamma males.

This venn diagram is an idealist fantasy.  There are plenty of misogynist farkwads out there.  And depressingly, there are plenty of women more than willing to sleep with them.


Newsflash: I am not a misogynist. I might be a farkwad but that's another issue.

For the record here: I hold in high esteem  the value of foreign cultures where they appreciate the computer sciences more -men and women equally.  I'm also against Neo-Puritanism which I assert that the Harpies and Gamma Males of this culture are in fact espousing.
 
2013-11-26 01:48:42 PM  
images.sodahead.com
 
2013-11-26 01:49:26 PM  
Well for one thing math is a foundational subject for computer programming and the primarily male math-dominated teachers, professors and text book writers seem to successfully try to make math as dull, dry, boring and irrelevant to women as possible!

You lose a lot of possible future female programmers in middle school math classes. As a woman with a CS degree, I'm a tiny minority. I was the ONLY woman who graduated from my university with a BS in CS the year I graduated.
 
2013-11-26 01:53:30 PM  

KawaiiNot: Well for one thing math is a foundational subject for computer programming and the primarily male math-dominated teachers, professors and text book writers seem to successfully try to make math as dull, dry, boring and irrelevant to women as possible!

You lose a lot of possible future female programmers in middle school math classes. As a woman with a CS degree, I'm a tiny minority. I was the ONLY woman who graduated from my university with a BS in CS the year I graduated.


You know this because you are an industry insider? Is there a financial incentive for Textbook Publishers to make math more interesting? Please share with us the wisdom of the ages.
 
2013-11-26 02:04:26 PM  

KawaiiNot: Well for one thing math is a foundational subject for computer programming and the primarily male math-dominated teachers, professors and text book writers seem to successfully try to make math as dull, dry, boring and irrelevant to women as possible!

You lose a lot of possible future female programmers in middle school math classes. As a woman with a CS degree, I'm a tiny minority. I was the ONLY woman who graduated from my university with a BS in CS the year I graduated.


So? Men go through math, why is it so different for women?
 
2013-11-26 02:05:13 PM  

KawaiiNot: Well for one thing math is a foundational subject for computer programming and the primarily male math-dominated teachers, professors and text book writers seem to successfully try to make math as dull, dry, boring and irrelevant to women as possible!

You lose a lot of possible future female programmers in middle school math classes. As a woman with a CS degree, I'm a tiny minority. I was the ONLY woman who graduated from my university with a BS in CS the year I graduated.


Math is taught atrociously in this country. On top of that thereis a definite stereotype that girls don't like math, which is ridiculous but perpetuated so efficiently many girls buy in.

There's also our general attitudes towards math in general.  I don't know how we got here where numbers are scary and those who are good with them obviously are undesirable losers

We need to start at the bottom of education if we want more women in CS.
 
2013-11-26 02:05:16 PM  

KawaiiNot: Well for one thing math is a foundational subject for computer programming and the primarily male math-dominated teachers, professors and text book writers seem to successfully try to make math as dull, dry, boring and irrelevant to women

PEOPLEas possible!

You lose a lot of possible future female programmers in middle school math classes. As a woman
PERSONwith a CS degree, I'm a tiny minority. I was the ONLY woman who graduated from my university with a BS in CS the year I graduated.

Fixed that for you. Math is boring until youre good at it. So is almost everything else that is worthwhile.

/Maths for a living
 
2013-11-26 02:07:20 PM  

commisioner: KawaiiNot: Well for one thing math is a foundational subject for computer programming and the primarily male math-dominated teachers, professors and text book writers seem to successfully try to make math as dull, dry, boring and irrelevant to women as possible!

You lose a lot of possible future female programmers in middle school math classes. As a woman with a CS degree, I'm a tiny minority. I was the ONLY woman who graduated from my university with a BS in CS the year I graduated.

So? Men go through math, why is it so different for women?


Ever been told you were "too pretty" to be a developer?
 
2013-11-26 02:15:32 PM  

the_vicious_fez: commisioner: KawaiiNot: Well for one thing math is a foundational subject for computer programming and the primarily male math-dominated teachers, professors and text book writers seem to successfully try to make math as dull, dry, boring and irrelevant to women as possible!

You lose a lot of possible future female programmers in middle school math classes. As a woman with a CS degree, I'm a tiny minority. I was the ONLY woman who graduated from my university with a BS in CS the year I graduated.

So? Men go through math, why is it so different for women?

Ever been told you were "too pretty" to be a developer?


That's not quite what I was looking for. I'm more wondering why dry Math is such a hurdle for women when men go through it too.

Honestly can't say I've been told I'm too pretty for a developer. I've been told I'm "Not awkward at all" and "woah you have social skills" when people find out I've got a degree in computing.
 
2013-11-26 02:18:26 PM  

the_vicious_fez: commisioner: KawaiiNot: Well for one thing math is a foundational subject for computer programming and the primarily male math-dominated teachers, professors and text book writers seem to successfully try to make math as dull, dry, boring and irrelevant to women as possible!

You lose a lot of possible future female programmers in middle school math classes. As a woman with a CS degree, I'm a tiny minority. I was the ONLY woman who graduated from my university with a BS in CS the year I graduated.

So? Men go through math, why is it so different for women?

Ever been told you were "too pretty" to be a developer?


I think this slices to the heart of the matter: technical competence and intelligence are considered to be competing opposites of attractiveness.

Like, the stereotype of the prom queen doesn't have her taking calculus.

And so many young women and girls are under intense pressure to BE ATTRACTIVE I feel like they shy away from "unattractive" disciplines.
 
2013-11-26 02:23:02 PM  

Esc7: the_vicious_fez: commisioner: KawaiiNot: Well for one thing math is a foundational subject for computer programming and the primarily male math-dominated teachers, professors and text book writers seem to successfully try to make math as dull, dry, boring and irrelevant to women as possible!

You lose a lot of possible future female programmers in middle school math classes. As a woman with a CS degree, I'm a tiny minority. I was the ONLY woman who graduated from my university with a BS in CS the year I graduated.

So? Men go through math, why is it so different for women?

Ever been told you were "too pretty" to be a developer?

I think this slices to the heart of the matter: technical competence and intelligence are considered to be competing opposites of attractiveness.

Like, the stereotype of the prom queen doesn't have her taking calculus.

And so many young women and girls are under intense pressure to BE ATTRACTIVE I feel like they shy away from "unattractive" disciplines.


And there's another insidious dimension to that, which is that for women in technical disciplines who put time and effort into their looks (notice I did not say "are attractive", just that they clearly curate their image), it is much harder to establish credibility in their fields with strangers.
 
2013-11-26 02:24:44 PM  

commisioner: the_vicious_fez: commisioner: KawaiiNot: Well for one thing math is a foundational subject for computer programming and the primarily male math-dominated teachers, professors and text book writers seem to successfully try to make math as dull, dry, boring and irrelevant to women as possible!

You lose a lot of possible future female programmers in middle school math classes. As a woman with a CS degree, I'm a tiny minority. I was the ONLY woman who graduated from my university with a BS in CS the year I graduated.

So? Men go through math, why is it so different for women?

Ever been told you were "too pretty" to be a developer?

That's not quite what I was looking for. I'm more wondering why dry Math is such a hurdle for women when men go through it too.

Honestly can't say I've been told I'm too pretty for a developer. I've been told I'm "Not awkward at all" and "woah you have social skills" when people find out I've got a degree in computing.


I know it's not the full answer to your question, but it's definitely a part of it. And yeah, there are a lot of ugly stereotypes surrounding tech professions. On both sides of the gender aisle. It's not something I'm proud of.
 
2013-11-26 02:27:50 PM  
My last corporate job had 2 women in charge of Lotus notes.

We treated them with all the respect we would any competent notes administrators. Like gods.

We didn't have many EE's that were female, though they would have been with the same respect as anyone else.

/I guess it was a progressive workplace.
//Sales and finance had way more women then men though.
///Marketing was an even split down the middle.
////Management was split pretty evenly too.
 
2013-11-26 02:29:37 PM  

Uncontrolled_Jibe: Sad to say after being around since the white shirt and black tie days that the incidence of throat beards, neck tattoos, constant casual Friday, and bandanas as head ware make it hard to really classify this as "professional" anymore.


What head ware might look like to a developer.
farm4.staticflickr.com
/I'll leave Bandana for someone else...
 
2013-11-26 02:37:06 PM  

fluffy2097: My last corporate job had 2 women in charge of Lotus notes.

We treated them with all the respect we would any competent notes administrators. Like gods.


Were they the ones who decided the company should use Notes?  Or were they just the ones who had to administer it?
 
2013-11-26 02:46:04 PM  

KawaiiNot: Well for one thing math is a foundational subject for computer programming and the primarily male math-dominated teachers, professors and text book writers seem to successfully try to make math as dull, dry, boring and irrelevant to women as possible!


I'm thinking of a xkcd cartoon where someone is teaching math to a boy, and the boy says, "you make math as dull, dry, boring and irrelevant as possible."

Then in the next box is someone teaching math to a girl, and the girl says, "you make math as dull, dry, boring and irrelevant to women as possible."
 
2013-11-26 02:49:31 PM  

the_vicious_fez: commisioner: the_vicious_fez: commisioner: KawaiiNot: Well for one thing math is a foundational subject for computer programming and the primarily male math-dominated teachers, professors and text book writers seem to successfully try to make math as dull, dry, boring and irrelevant to women as possible!

You lose a lot of possible future female programmers in middle school math classes. As a woman with a CS degree, I'm a tiny minority. I was the ONLY woman who graduated from my university with a BS in CS the year I graduated.

So? Men go through math, why is it so different for women?

Ever been told you were "too pretty" to be a developer?

That's not quite what I was looking for. I'm more wondering why dry Math is such a hurdle for women when men go through it too.

Honestly can't say I've been told I'm too pretty for a developer. I've been told I'm "Not awkward at all" and "woah you have social skills" when people find out I've got a degree in computing.

I know it's not the full answer to your question, but it's definitely a part of it. And yeah, there are a lot of ugly stereotypes surrounding tech professions. On both sides of the gender aisle. It's not something I'm proud of.


Yeah, I'm with you there. It's not something anyone should be proud of.
 
2013-11-26 02:50:05 PM  

anfrind: Were they the ones who decided the company should use Notes? Or were they just the ones who had to administer it?


They were just the poor souls who had to admin it. Everyone from the CEO  on down HATED notes, but there were critical databases or something in it, so there was no way they would spend the money to move to less of a clusterfark.

/Those women made Notes their biatch. They were amazing. Whenever notes would shiat itself they had it back up faster then you could get a pizza delivered.
 
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