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(UPI)   Last week's news: The "Francis Effect" has lapsed Catholics returning to church in record numbers. This week's news: Except in the United States, where they still aren't sure about this neo-hippie liberal dude in the Vatican   (upi.com) divider line 76
    More: Followup, Lapsed Catholic, Catholic Church, Pope Francis, United States, Vatican, non-Catholic, record numbers, holy orders  
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1893 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Nov 2013 at 8:58 AM (39 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-26 09:00:43 AM
They guy is still considerably to the right of Jesus, and people are still concerned he some hippy out to destroy the world with a leftist agenda.
 
2013-11-26 09:01:14 AM
The church being less terrible doesn't remove all the really god-awful protestants here in the U.S.A. who love to remind us of backwards Christian views constantly.
 
2013-11-26 09:01:50 AM
firedaily.com
 
2013-11-26 09:03:31 AM
Every survey I've seen shows that American Catholics are considerably more liberal than their church's hierarchy, not the other way around. That the hierarchy is basically doing everything it's power to undermine the Pope's shifts in tone goes a long way to explaining the lack of a "Francis Effect" here, IMO.
 
2013-11-26 09:03:51 AM
I thought we called it the Frank Black Effect now.
 
2013-11-26 09:04:26 AM
Sorry, it would take more than a nicer guy wearing the pope-hat to make me a Catholic again. Like, Jesus coming to me personally with some crazy time-travel proof-stuff more.
 
2013-11-26 09:04:41 AM
Lemme know when he advocates birth control for the masses.
 
2013-11-26 09:05:30 AM

limeyfellow: They guy is still considerably to the right of Jesus, and people are still concerned he some hippy out to destroy the world with a leftist agenda.


That said... he's probably the first Pope to ever be respected by American atheists. Anyone whose primary message is "stop being so greedy and do something to help other people" is a major improvement for any religious institution.
 
2013-11-26 09:06:53 AM
Yes, because a small increase in church attendance in the four countries with some of the largest Catholic populations is totally because of this pope specifically and not something that happens literally every single time any new pope is elected in general.

And the US not showing the same gains is totally something to do with the fact that we don't like this pope specifically and not that people in the US are skeptical about the value of regime change and electing new leaders in general.

Definitely a meaningful causative relationship there, if there's anyone I trust to posit major political trends, it's "some observers" you can tell they're competent statisticians with entirely valid expertise because all of the best scientists and political analysts are mysterious and unnamed, and the lack of citations isn't because the news organization is trying to drum up excitement over nonexistent bullshiat at all.
 
2013-11-26 09:07:45 AM
That having been said, when your predecessor was a Hitler Youth known primarily for his strong "Stop Snitchin'" stance regarding child molestation within the company, you don't have to do much to look good at your job.
 
2013-11-26 09:08:04 AM

EyeballKid: I thought we called it the Frank Black Effect now.


His mind is like an ocean. He's hanging in the harbor.
 
2013-11-26 09:09:20 AM
I'm suspecting those would be Polish-American Catholics.  In my experience, they tend to be among the hard liners.
 
2013-11-26 09:10:29 AM

Wolf_Blitzer: Every survey I've seen shows that American Catholics are considerably more liberal than their church's hierarchy, not the other way around. That the hierarchy is basically doing everything it's power to undermine the Pope's shifts in tone goes a long way to explaining the lack of a "Francis Effect" here, IMO.


Lighten up, conservatives.
 
2013-11-26 09:11:44 AM
Well, speaking as a lapsed Catholic, I'll say that even if I'm more favorably disposed toward this pope than previous ones, that's not really enough to bring me back to a religion that...well, that never really made sense to me.
 
2013-11-26 09:12:17 AM

Wolf_Blitzer: Every survey I've seen shows that American Catholics are considerably more liberal than their church's hierarchy, not the other way around. That the hierarchy is basically doing everything it's power to undermine the Pope's shifts in tone goes a long way to explaining the lack of a "Francis Effect" here, IMO.


That, plus the fact that he has yet to really deal with the still unresolved child abuse scandal, actually treating homosexuals as people and not inveterate sinners, just to name a couple.  Don't get me wrong, better than the last one, but still a long way to go for this lapsed Catholic.

Jim_Callahan: the lack of citations isn't because the news organization is trying to drum up excitement over nonexistent bullshiat at all.


And this.
 
2013-11-26 09:12:43 AM

vudukungfu: Lemme know when he advocates birth control for the masses.


Why? Does it somehow affect your ability to use birth control?
 
2013-11-26 09:12:55 AM

Facetious_Speciest: Sorry, it would take more than a nicer guy wearing the pope-hat to make me a Catholic again. Like, Jesus coming to me personally with some crazy time-travel proof-stuff more.


Hell he would not even have to time travel. If some dude could actually do the magic that Jesus did, you know heal the sick just by laying on hands, feed the poor by multiplying the food, changing water into wine, etc... well I would believe him when he says he is the son of god, but it would have to be magic and have no rational explanation.

/That reminds me know why the bible tells not to suffer a witch to live? Because god hates the competition.
 
2013-11-26 09:13:34 AM
Perhaps many Americans still haven't seen nearly enough movement towards getting child-rapists and their enablers out of the Church, and other countries aren't as concerned (or aware).
 
2013-11-26 09:13:51 AM

Uisce Beatha: Wolf_Blitzer: Every survey I've seen shows that American Catholics are considerably more liberal than their church's hierarchy, not the other way around. That the hierarchy is basically doing everything it's power to undermine the Pope's shifts in tone goes a long way to explaining the lack of a "Francis Effect" here, IMO.

That, plus the fact that he has yet to really deal with the still unresolved child abuse scandal, actually treating homosexuals as people and not inveterate sinners, just to name a couple.  Don't get me wrong, better than the last one, but still a long way to go for this lapsed Catholic.

Jim_Callahan: the lack of citations isn't because the news organization is trying to drum up excitement over nonexistent bullshiat at all.

And this.


It's the Catholic church you are going to have to give it another 100 years to catch up to where we are today.
 
2013-11-26 09:15:09 AM
Those are two completely separate religious groups.
 
2013-11-26 09:16:27 AM
Of course, subby.  America is a Christian nation, not a Catholic nation.

/ducks
 
2013-11-26 09:18:42 AM
I've heard some European Catholics claim that they don't like the new pope because he is being too easy on Americans.

Anyone else hearing things like this?
 
2013-11-26 09:20:24 AM

Slaves2Darkness: Uisce Beatha: Wolf_Blitzer: Every survey I've seen shows that American Catholics are considerably more liberal than their church's hierarchy, not the other way around. That the hierarchy is basically doing everything it's power to undermine the Pope's shifts in tone goes a long way to explaining the lack of a "Francis Effect" here, IMO.

That, plus the fact that he has yet to really deal with the still unresolved child abuse scandal, actually treating homosexuals as people and not inveterate sinners, just to name a couple.  Don't get me wrong, better than the last one, but still a long way to go for this lapsed Catholic.

Jim_Callahan: the lack of citations isn't because the news organization is trying to drum up excitement over nonexistent bullshiat at all.

And this.

It's the Catholic church you are going to have to give it another 100 years to catch up to where we are today.


I'd lean closer to 500 years.
 
2013-11-26 09:23:44 AM

Slaves2Darkness: It's the Catholic church you are going to have to give it another 100 years to catch up to where we are today.


And maybe, maybe in 100 years my great-grandkids might consider rejoining the church, then.
 
2013-11-26 09:24:16 AM
It's almost as if who ever wrote that story has forgotten about the cover ups of all of the boy touching. Surely that doesn't play a role in any of this.
 
2013-11-26 09:27:02 AM

ikanreed: The church being less terrible doesn't remove all the really god-awful protestants here in the U.S.A. who love to remind us of backwards Christian views constantly.


Some of us are trying to correct course on that, too.
 
2013-11-26 09:29:49 AM

EyeballKid: I thought we called it the Frank Black Effect now.


I heard the Romans sing.
 
2013-11-26 09:30:15 AM
This will bring them back down to Earth
i1235.photobucket.com
 
2013-11-26 09:30:24 AM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: vudukungfu: Lemme know when he advocates birth control for the masses.

Why? Does it somehow affect your ability to use birth control?


Nope, but the blind masses of robotic mindless morans that follow the dead-guy-on-a-stick culture will obey him as if he was ghawd ollmighty hisownself. If he told them to stop farking and making poor people to feed, a huge amount would do it. If her told them all to better themselves, and get a farking education, and practice good hygiene and be environmentally stable and sustainable, they would follow.

Lemmings.
 
2013-11-26 09:30:36 AM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-11-26 09:31:20 AM

The5thElement: I'd lean closer to 500 years.


Yeah, I'd point out that they turned a very careful blind eye to birth control in the '60s as evidence they're only a century behind, but they've backtracked to the doctrinal hard-line on even that so a substantial fraction of a millennium seems more apt.

Plus, y'know, Popey McLiberal Niceguy is still straight-up covering for the institutional child-rape and hasn't actually divested the church of any of its ill-gotten wealth or expanded its operations out of hidden-hook charity and into actual charity charity in any way.  So all he's done is taken us from Emperor Palpatine on the death star evil to Emperor Palpatine on the death star wearing a tee shirt and a ballcap evil.

I mean, it's nice that he wears blue jeans instead of gold-plated boxers or whatever, but so long as the church is hanging on to said boxers it doesn't actually make any difference whether they're under his robes or in a drawer somewhere, the 'plundering the poor's wealth' aspect remains in play.
 
2013-11-26 09:32:20 AM
Christmas time is coming, too.  For the past 3 weeks and the next 4 early mass is full and smells like last call.
 
2013-11-26 09:32:25 AM

Jim_Callahan: Yes, because a small increase in church attendance in the four countries with some of the largest Catholic populations is totally because of this pope specifically and not something that happens literally every single time any new pope is elected in general.

And the US not showing the same gains is totally something to do with the fact that we don't like this pope specifically and not that people in the US are skeptical about the value of regime change and electing new leaders in general.

Definitely a meaningful causative relationship there, if there's anyone I trust to posit major political trends, it's "some observers" you can tell they're competent statisticians with entirely valid expertise because all of the best scientists and political analysts are mysterious and unnamed, and the lack of citations isn't because the news organization is trying to drum up excitement over nonexistent bullshiat at all.


I'll be curious how much the numbers are up during Advent/Christmas and Lent/Easter.  Personally, the number of my family members leaving Christmas Eve dinner has gone from "pretty much everyone, if they weren't hitting up mass in the morning" to my uncle, two cousins, mother, and sometimes brother.

I'll probably head out on Christmas Day this year by myself, and that'll be the first time I've attended Mass in... five-ish years, save one baptism and Ash Wednesdays.

Obviously the Christmas/Easter numbers are higher than the weekly/daily attendees, but getting the occasional folks back in the seats for those two would be a pretty good sign.  I know my brother has said the last few years they could easily find a seat for Midnight Mass, which was never the case 5+  years ago when I reliably went - and the population in my hometown has been pretty stable.  And they combine Easter services with another parish entirely, now.

Suppose I'll see if they get a seat this year, and then see if anyone bothered to watch the numbers.
 
2013-11-26 09:34:21 AM

Uisce Beatha: Slaves2Darkness: It's the Catholic church you are going to have to give it another 100 years to catch up to where we are today.

And maybe, maybe in 100 years my great-grandkids might consider rejoining the church, then.


Nah, in 100 years the Church will be daming transhuman love affairs and your great-grandkids will be appalled.
 
2013-11-26 09:34:32 AM

TheWhoppah: [i.imgur.com image 403x294]


you get those damned things out of my FARK.
 
2013-11-26 09:34:34 AM
Slaves2Darkness

Hell he would not even have to time travel. If some dude could actually do the magic that Jesus did, you know heal the sick just by laying on hands, feed the poor by multiplying the food, changing water into wine, etc... well I would believe him when he says he is the son of god, but it would have to be magic and have no rational explanation.

/That reminds me know why the bible tells not to suffer a witch to live? Because god hates the competition.


That's why I'd have to hold out for the time travel. The dogma is that Jesus/Yahweh can do anything, so it's no skin of his nose, and just making extra dinner/drink isn't going to explain the massive historical flaws in their legendarium. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary temporal evidence.
 
2013-11-26 09:36:01 AM
images.sodahead.com
 
2013-11-26 09:37:17 AM

vudukungfu: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: vudukungfu: Lemme know when he advocates birth control for the masses.

Why? Does it somehow affect your ability to use birth control?

Nope, but the blind masses of robotic mindless morans that follow the dead-guy-on-a-stick culture will obey him as if he was ghawd ollmighty hisownself. If he told them to stop farking and making poor people to feed, a huge amount would do it. If her told them all to better themselves, and get a farking education, and practice good hygiene and be environmentally stable and sustainable, they would follow.

Lemmings.


Yes, of course. All the poverty and other world ills are caused by the Pope and the Catholic Church.

i39.tinypic.com

/Not Catholic.
 
2013-11-26 09:40:15 AM

Wolf_Blitzer: Every survey I've seen shows that American Catholics are considerably more liberal than their church's hierarchy, not the other way around. That the hierarchy is basically doing everything it's power to undermine the Pope's shifts in tone goes a long way to explaining the lack of a "Francis Effect" here, IMO.


Exactly. The few Catholics who still go to church in America go to hear about which sinners are going to hell this week.

Lapsed Catholics in the US are mostly people who aren't interested in what American priests have to say, and/or don't want their kids to get felt up when they're not looking. Pope Frank has to do some house cleaning.
 
2013-11-26 09:42:06 AM

limeyfellow: They guy is still considerably to the right of Jesus, and people are still concerned he some hippy out to destroy the world with a leftist agenda.


Who today remembers the other Fuhrer?

Still waiting for female priests and a melting down of significant tonnes of Vatican gold to pay for choirboy bunghole surgery before I book a flight to Rome to cheer in Latin.

/Ave of tears
 
2013-11-26 09:46:53 AM

Facetious_Speciest: Sorry, it would take more than a nicer guy wearing the pope-hat to make me a Catholic again. Like, Jesus coming to me personally with some crazy time-travel proof-stuff more.


If I was a Catholic (or former Catholic) and still believed in all the religiously stuff, I don't think anything short of the most profuse apologies and repentance for the whole child abuse and cover-up thing would convince me going back is a good idea. The fact that they haven't figuratively gotten down on their hands and knees to beg the world to forgive them for that still makes me say fark 'em. I guess maybe in their minds God/Jesus has forgiven them already and people don't matter in that regard.
 
2013-11-26 09:46:59 AM

FuturePastNow: Wolf_Blitzer: Every survey I've seen shows that American Catholics are considerably more liberal than their church's hierarchy, not the other way around. That the hierarchy is basically doing everything it's power to undermine the Pope's shifts in tone goes a long way to explaining the lack of a "Francis Effect" here, IMO.

Exactly. The few Catholics who still go to church in America go to hear about which sinners are going to hell this week.

Lapsed Catholics in the US are mostly people who aren't interested in what American priests have to say, and/or don't want their kids to get felt up when they're not looking. Pope Frank has to do some house cleaning.


I have never once heard a Catholic priest talk of sinners or hell unless he was reading directly from a publication.  Obviously and particularly in my area there have been some terrible people involved in the Catholic Church, but the mantra has not been about sinning and hell the way you might see a rural Christian church portrayed.
 
2013-11-26 09:47:56 AM

Facetious_Speciest: Sorry, it would take more than a nicer guy wearing the pope-hat to make me a Catholic again. Like, Jesus coming to me personally with some crazy time-travel proof-stuff more.


As long as that proof was also wibbly-wobbly...
 
2013-11-26 09:50:22 AM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: vudukungfu: Lemme know when he advocates birth control for the masses.

Why? Does it somehow affect your ability to use birth control?


If vudukungfu is the only one, the crowds to get to the drugstore counter become truly impossible.

Always thought this might have been a sly dig at Catholicism.
 
2013-11-26 09:52:03 AM
Speaking of which... John 20:13-14:  'They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"  "They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him."  At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.'

Because he had regenerated.
 
2013-11-26 09:52:38 AM
However nice he may be, he still has to keep a straight face when explaining how wine and crackers turn into a long-dead man's blood and guts. Seriously, guys, none of you have heard of a metaphor before?
 
2013-11-26 09:55:45 AM

vudukungfu: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: vudukungfu: Lemme know when he advocates birth control for the masses.

Why? Does it somehow affect your ability to use birth control?

Nope, but the blind masses of robotic mindless morans that follow the dead-guy-on-a-stick culture will obey him as if he was ghawd ollmighty hisownself. If he told them to stop farking and making poor people to feed, a huge amount would do it. If her told them all to better themselves, and get a farking education, and practice good hygiene and be environmentally stable and sustainable, they would follow.

Lemmings.


1.2 billion, and you're going to tell them how to believe. Good luck with that, don't strain anything patting yourself on the back.
 
2013-11-26 09:56:15 AM

vudukungfu: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: vudukungfu: Lemme know when he advocates birth control for the masses.

Why? Does it somehow affect your ability to use birth control?

Nope, but the blind masses of robotic mindless morans that follow the dead-guy-on-a-stick culture will obey him as if he was ghawd ollmighty hisownself. If he told them to stop farking and making poor people to feed, a huge amount would do it. If her told them all to better themselves, and get a farking education, and practice good hygiene and be environmentally stable and sustainable, they would follow.

Lemmings.


This may have already been pointed out in this thread, I haven't read all the way through yet, but the Catholic Church's stance on birth control absolutely has an effect on the ability of people in third-world countries to access or be willing to use birth control. It's having a pretty negative impact in Africa, in particular. They will tell the people they're supposedly trying to help straight up lies, like condoms will give you AIDS.
 
2013-11-26 09:57:32 AM

xanadian: Speaking of which... John 20:13-14:  'They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"  "They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him."  At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.'

Because he had regenerated.


In other words, "Let this cup pass from me" is how the Jews of 2000 years ago would've said "I don't want to go"
 
2013-11-26 10:01:36 AM

milkyshirt: vudukungfu: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: vudukungfu: Lemme know when he advocates birth control for the masses.

Why? Does it somehow affect your ability to use birth control?

Nope, but the blind masses of robotic mindless morans that follow the dead-guy-on-a-stick culture will obey him as if he was ghawd ollmighty hisownself. If he told them to stop farking and making poor people to feed, a huge amount would do it. If her told them all to better themselves, and get a farking education, and practice good hygiene and be environmentally stable and sustainable, they would follow.

Lemmings.

This may have already been pointed out in this thread, I haven't read all the way through yet, but the Catholic Church's stance on birth control absolutely has an effect on the ability of people in third-world countries to access or be willing to use birth control. It's having a pretty negative impact in Africa, in particular. They will tell the people they're supposedly trying to help straight up lies, like condoms will give you AIDS.


fakeplus.com
 
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