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(The New York Times)   Using actual facts, the argument is made that higher taxes lead to better quality of life, with Minnesota and Wisconsin as examples   (nytimes.com) divider line 347
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4591 clicks; posted to Politics » on 24 Nov 2013 at 6:23 PM (35 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-24 04:48:20 PM
Yes, but Republicans and Democrats ask different questions. Democrats tend to ask: "how have the middle class and poor been affected by these policies" while Republicans tend to ask "how have the business owners and 'job creators' been affected by these policies?"

Have Wisconsin businesses benefited more than Minnesota businesses? Have their earnings gone up, while being able to keep their costs and taxes low? If so, then Republicans and Democrats can both look at the exact same data and disagree as to which state has better governance.
 
2013-11-24 04:55:00 PM

nmrsnr: Yes, but Republicans and Democrats ask different questions. Democrats tend to ask: "how have the middle class and poor been affected by these policies" while Republicans tend to ask "how have the business owners and 'job creators' been affected by these policies?"

Have Wisconsin businesses benefited more than Minnesota businesses? Have their earnings gone up, while being able to keep their costs and taxes low? If so, then Republicans and Democrats can both look at the exact same data and disagree as to which state has better governance.


That's...actually, that's well put. 

However, that's the old equation. The new equation tosses Tea Party derp into the mix, which is entirely irregular, inconsistent, and not necessarily even logical. 

Democrat: this law drives up costs for the middle class while cutting costs for the rich. Therefore, it's bad.

Republican: this law cuts costs to small business, at minimal cost to the middle class. Therefore, it's good.

Tea Party: this law doesn't properly reference the Bible, and I read on the Internet once that Ronald Reagan had a dream that said that something almost entirely unlike this law is bad, therefore it's Obama's fault and RAND PAUL should be President. Destroy the Fed, the Department of Education, and all the other socialist fascist communist institutions that are being used to control us.

So long as either of the two parties is tied to that kind of crazy, nothing will change, and facts will continue to not matter.
 
2013-11-24 05:22:09 PM
reality has a liberal bias
 
2013-11-24 05:22:31 PM

whistleridge: Tea Party: this law doesn't properly reference the Bible, and I read on the Internet once that Ronald Reagan had a dream that said that something almost entirely unlike this law is bad, therefore it's Obama's fault and RAND PAUL should be President. Destroy the Fed, the Department of Education, and all the other socialist fascist communist institutions that are being used to control us.


I think the Tea Party is actually much simpler than that. They are a reactionary social conservative sect of the Republican Party. Their only concerns are 1) do any Democrats agree with it? and 2) did a pure enough Republican stroke their egos when presenting it? If so, it's a-ok by them. If not, it's either appeasement, socialism, or not listening to the will of the people.
 
2013-11-24 05:31:02 PM

nmrsnr: whistleridge: Tea Party: this law doesn't properly reference the Bible, and I read on the Internet once that Ronald Reagan had a dream that said that something almost entirely unlike this law is bad, therefore it's Obama's fault and RAND PAUL should be President. Destroy the Fed, the Department of Education, and all the other socialist fascist communist institutions that are being used to control us.

I think the Tea Party is actually much simpler than that. They are a reactionary social conservative sect of the Republican Party. Their only concerns are 1) do any Democrats agree with it? and 2) did a pure enough Republican stroke their egos when presenting it? If so, it's a-ok by them. If not, it's either appeasement, socialism, or not listening to the will of the people.


For some, yes. But I know faaaar too many other who genuinely honestly believe Obama is both fascist and socialist, that Grover Norquist - yes, THAT Grover Norquist - is a progressive liberal, that JFK was a conservative's conservative, and that the US is genuinely in danger of implementing Sharia law within 10 years to think they're all like that. 

The Tea Party is a bubbling well head of profound mass stupidity, a grand societal experiment in proving just how dangerous a little learning can be; trying to define it as simply as you have at best only covers 70% or so of it.
 
2013-11-24 05:40:45 PM
I'll see that and raise you the Nordic countries policies.

In the end, all things are doable when we give up being the world's policeman.
 
2013-11-24 05:51:38 PM
Flawed premise: nothing can raise the quality of life in Minnesota or Wisconsin.
 
2013-11-24 05:52:17 PM

edmo: In the end, all things are doable when we give up being the world's policeman.


It should be pointed out that simply inducting a governmental model from the state to the federal level is not really possible. A sovereign nation has responsibilities that its component states do not.
 
2013-11-24 06:26:47 PM
yeah but hurr durr taxes are theft
 
2013-11-24 06:33:06 PM

nmrsnr: Yes, but Republicans and Democrats ask different questions. Democrats tend to ask: "how have the middle class and poor been affected by these policies" while Republicans tend to ask "how have the business owners and 'job creators' been affected by these policies?"

Have Wisconsin businesses benefited more than Minnesota businesses? Have their earnings gone up, while being able to keep their costs and taxes low? If so, then Republicans and Democrats can both look at the exact same data and disagree as to which state has better governance.


Here's the thing, though:  Businesses will ALWAYS say that regulations/taxes/oversight is too high.  It doesn't matter if the state is sending  18 year old high school cheerleaders to blow the CEO's every day, they'll still complain that girls have the wrong shade of lipstick.
 
2013-11-24 06:38:39 PM
Subby, why do you hate Jesus?
 
2013-11-24 06:39:53 PM

nmrsnr: Have Wisconsin businesses benefited more than Minnesota businesses? Have their earnings gone up, while being able to keep their costs and taxes low? If so, then Republicans and Democrats can both look at the exact same data and disagree as to which state has better governance.


But considering trickle down economics has been debunked since forever, nobody with any sense gives a shiat if business executives are only capable of being "very rich", when they could be "disgustingly rich". A rising tide lifts all boats. Billionaires are not a tide.
 
2013-11-24 06:41:46 PM
How is this not terribly obvious?

I doubt it's a coincidence that the best places in the world to live have high taxes (Scandinavia, Germany, Switzerland, Japan, etc.) while the places with low to no taxes are shiatholes (sub-saharan Africa, chunks of SE Asia, etc.)

There are some exceptions, but they're small countries that don't have a military, and do have other sources of revenue, be it gambling, oil, being a tax haven and the resulting banking industry, etc.
 
2013-11-24 06:42:35 PM
But if you look at gov't cash flows like a family budget...
 
2013-11-24 06:45:49 PM
Yeah, but you can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
2013-11-24 06:46:41 PM

Bareefer Obonghit: Flawed premise: nothing can raise the quality of life in Minnesota or Wisconsin.


Well, that's true. We do have it pretty darn good.

Or, in the local parlance, "Could be worse".
 
2013-11-24 06:47:39 PM
FTA: Evidence and common sense should matter more in our overheated political debates.

One would think.

Higher taxes done progressively are leading a better quality of life for everyone in Dayton's Minnesota and euro-style austerity in Walker's Wisconsin are diminishing that quality of life.

All the facts aren't in yet as the author states but yeah, it look like out you get what you pay for in this life.

Huh. Go figure.
 
2013-11-24 06:48:52 PM

Somacandra: edmo: In the end, all things are doable when we give up being the world's policeman.

It should be pointed out that simply inducting a governmental model from the state to the federal level is not really possible. A sovereign nation has responsibilities that its component states do not.


That's a mighty fine strawman you've built there, wrapped up as a false dilemma: the only choices are to abdicate all foreign policy and ignore national security, or keep committing a force of tens of thousands of troops to fight for women's rights in Afghanistan.

(or whatever the excuse du jour is for staying in there; I actually heard this one trotted out last week by a guest on Diane Rehm)

Imagine we stopped killing anyone that's on the other side of the planet that we deem a "militant", that we stopped caring which warlord ruled over some pack of illiterate goat herders, that our economy was largely immune to big shifts in the price of oil.

We could get by with a military and security budget of one third the size we have (if that). We're talking maybe $250 billion in savings. That could finance, for example, a cut of about one fourth across the board in personal income taxes.

Think about what that would do for the economy, and for the middle class.
 
2013-11-24 06:53:20 PM
fta Evidence and common sense should matter more in our overheated political debates.

You're right. They should.
 
2013-11-24 06:54:40 PM
Who wants to start a Pragmatists Party?
 
2013-11-24 06:57:48 PM
Well no shiat. Any intelligent person could have told you that. I don't see any way you could possibly argue otherwise.
 
2013-11-24 06:58:05 PM

SoupGuru: Who wants to start a Pragmatists Party?


Are you sure it's such a practical solution?
 
2013-11-24 06:58:27 PM
My hope is that as Elizabeth Warren (and her economic populism) is pushed to higher office, facts and evidence and common sense will become more popular, while dogmatic rigidity and flaming hyperbole will become less so. It's good to have hopes.
 
2013-11-24 07:00:57 PM

Notabunny: My hope is that as Elizabeth Warren (and her economic populism) is pushed to higher office, facts and evidence and common sense will become more popular, while dogmatic rigidity and flaming hyperbole will become less so. It's good to have hopes.


Me too.

Well, all that and a pony too.

/May as well go for broke!
 
2013-11-24 07:01:02 PM
"Higher taxes lead to better quality of life"

Which explains why communist countries are always so successful I guess.
 
2013-11-24 07:01:23 PM
He's also ignoring that smarter cities like Minneapolis (where businesses like Target, 3M and more have their HQ) and Chicago (where to begin...) have more things going on than manufacturing and attracted bigger and better businesses.  They're resumes make the whole of Wisconsin look like Topeka.  But our leaders haven't developed anything for better a generation; content to bring in crappy, small-time manufacturers who only stay until the tax breaks run out.  Heaven forbid they try on build UW's biotech program, or try to get into some more divergent lines of business.
 
2013-11-24 07:04:25 PM

Notabunny: My hope is that as Elizabeth Warren (and her economic populism) is pushed to higher office, facts and evidence and common sense will become more popular, while dogmatic rigidity and flaming hyperbole will become less so. It's good to have hopes.


Wouldn't  Warren/Clinton be the most awesome thing for 2016 !     Reduced dogmatic rigidity and such...
 
2013-11-24 07:05:06 PM
FTA -

but many cheered Mr. Dayton's investments in the Mayo Clinic, the new Vikings stadium, the Mall of America and 3M headquarters

My, what a wise use of taxpayer money Mr. Dayton.

/at least he has has right dicks in his mouth, fine politician there.
 
2013-11-24 07:08:19 PM

cchris_39: fine politician there.


durr
 
2013-11-24 07:09:14 PM

whidbey: SoupGuru: Who wants to start a Pragmatists Party?

Are you sure it's such a practical solution?


Well done.
 
2013-11-24 07:11:48 PM

MisterRonbo: Somacandra: edmo: In the end, all things are doable when we give up being the world's policeman.

It should be pointed out that simply inducting a governmental model from the state to the federal level is not really possible. A sovereign nation has responsibilities that its component states do not.

That's a mighty fine strawman you've built there, wrapped up as a false dilemma: the only choices are to abdicate all foreign policy and ignore national security, or keep committing a force of tens of thousands of troops to fight for women's rights in Afghanistan.

(or whatever the excuse du jour is for staying in there; I actually heard this one trotted out last week by a guest on Diane Rehm)

Imagine we stopped killing anyone that's on the other side of the planet that we deem a "militant", that we stopped caring which warlord ruled over some pack of illiterate goat herders, that our economy was largely immune to big shifts in the price of oil.

We could get by with a military and security budget of one third the size we have (if that). We're talking maybe $250 billion in savings. That could finance, for example, a cut of about one fourth across the board in personal income taxes.

10 Republican government shutdowns!

Think about what that would do for the economy, and for the middle class. Exactly!
 
2013-11-24 07:12:54 PM

netcentric: Notabunny: My hope is that as Elizabeth Warren (and her economic populism) is pushed to higher office, facts and evidence and common sense will become more popular, while dogmatic rigidity and flaming hyperbole will become less so. It's good to have hopes.

Wouldn't  Warren/Clinton be the most awesome thing for 2016 !     Reduced dogmatic rigidity and such...


I see Warren as an evidence-based pragmatist. I can't think of anything she's said that would cause me to think of her as dogmatic or rigid.
 
2013-11-24 07:13:01 PM

InteriorDesignNinja: But if you look at gov't cash flows like a family budget...


You can't? I print my own currency all the time.

/That was joke to you Feds reading the thread
//It's only twice a week
 
2013-11-24 07:13:53 PM

SoupGuru: Who wants to start a Pragmatists Party?



Well there's this from tfa:

"... As for fiscal policy, Mr. Dayton would have applied sales taxes more broadly, while lowering their rates, but faced intense protests from a broad section of businesses and Democratic legislators who blocked him.

"Even after tempering their initial plans, Democrats face a backlash. According to a recent Minnesota Chamber of Commerce survey, a quarter of Minnesota companies - a 10-year high - describe the state's business climate as worse than elsewhere. Mr. Dayton and his colleagues got the message and are likely to roll back new sales taxes on farm equipment and warehousing facilities that had threatened to leave."


There. I see members of one political party in Minnesota who work with others to answer the question of exactly how much taxation's appropriate, willing to walk back if it's shown they've gone too far.

Meanwhile, here in Wisconsin, I see another political party who's actively trying to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, regardless of the actual effects of the policies, because dogma.
 
2013-11-24 07:14:05 PM
The analysis is pretty crap. Our economies are very different, which is the result of decades of choices and chances. Minnesota has an insanely diversified engineering and high tech manufacturing sector, is home to two of the larger retail giants, the largest private company in the US. While there are some great tech firms in Madison and Milwaukee, it isn't the same scale.

My family is from Milwaukee and it has been hurting for decades. The improvements I have seen in recent years seem to be related to the fact that Chicago's economic sphere has been expanding to include Milwaukee.
 
2013-11-24 07:14:17 PM
Wow, you mean you have to have income to pay for things!!!

WHY DIDN'T SOMEBODY SAY SI!!!!!!
 
2013-11-24 07:14:37 PM
Cart before horse.
 
2013-11-24 07:15:39 PM

LargeCanine: Cart before horse.


When big business pays people what they're worth, we might not need as many taxes.

But you knew that.
 
2013-11-24 07:16:20 PM

edmo: I'll see that and raise you the Nordic countries policies.

In the end, all things are doable when we give up being the world's policeman.


Yeah, I was gonna mention those awful Scandinavian countries with their evil taxes and their happy citizens.
 
2013-11-24 07:17:09 PM

Bareefer Obonghit: Flawed premise: nothing can raise the quality of life in Minnesota or Wisconsin.


Keep thinking that.  Keeps the riff-raff out.
 
2013-11-24 07:17:50 PM

fusillade762: edmo: I'll see that and raise you the Nordic countries policies.

In the end, all things are doable when we give up being the world's policeman.

Yeah, I was gonna mention those awful Scandinavian countries with their evil taxes and their happy citizens.


But their society is stagnant.

*coughs*
 
2013-11-24 07:20:37 PM
I think that low taxes might hurt the middle class income people most.

Why do we pay taxes? To pay for services that various levels of government provide us. So. When the services aren't there because of low taxes, what happens? You either have a choice of doing without, or paying for them with your own money.

The rich, they have the money to pay for it. The poor, will probably do without for a while. But the middle class will end up paying a lot extra, because they realize they need the services, so they pay for them out of their own pocket.
 
2013-11-24 07:20:53 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: InteriorDesignNinja: But if you look at gov't cash flows like a family budget...

You can't? I print my own currency all the time.

/That was joke to you Feds reading the thread
//It's only twice a week


Seriously, the real danger is 3D printers. Soon, anyone will have the ability to produce their own coconuts.
 
2013-11-24 07:21:37 PM

randomjsa: "Higher taxes lead to better quality of life"

Which explains why communist countries are always so successful I guess.


Lemme Libsplain' that for yas.

Communism failed because it thought socializing everything was a good idea.

Republicans fail because they think privatizing everything is a good idea.

You fail because you aren't bright enough to see through obvious RW propaganda.

Any questions?
 
2013-11-24 07:22:39 PM

baka-san: Wow, you mean you have to have income to pay for things!!!

WHY DIDN'T SOMEBODY SAY SI!!!!!!


California's been saying it for years. All we had to do was remove Republicans from power to prove it.
 
2013-11-24 07:23:42 PM

MisterRonbo: That's a mighty fine strawman you've built there, wrapped up as a false dilemma: the only choices are to abdicate all foreign policy and ignore national security, or keep committing a force of tens of thousands of troops to fight for women's rights in Afghanistan.


I don't know where you're getting that from. I'm not pleased with the massive worldwide presence of the U.S. either. I'm just pointing out that the examples listed in the article were states and they don't have the same scale of responsibilities that nations as a whole do. One would expect the ratio/scale of military spending to be higher for a nation than for the National Guard contingents of a given state. There are gestalt social responsibilities for a higher level of federalization. And that would take more revenue. Unless you want to make Social Security a matter for states to handle. I wouldn't want that.
 
2013-11-24 07:26:21 PM
Evil High Priest:  Seriously, the real danger is 3D printers. Soon, anyone will have the ability to produce their own coconuts.

i.imgur.com

R.I.P. DR. COCONUT
 
2013-11-24 07:27:52 PM

Evil High Priest: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: InteriorDesignNinja: But if you look at gov't cash flows like a family budget...

You can't? I print my own currency all the time.

/That was joke to you Feds reading the thread
//It's only twice a week

Seriously, the real danger is 3D printers. Soon, anyone will have the ability to produce their own coconuts.


I think you meant

img20.imageshack.us
 
2013-11-24 07:29:14 PM

whidbey: LargeCanine: Cart before horse.

When big business pays people what they're worth, we might not need as many taxes.

But you knew that.


Paying people what their worth is expensive and will put a lot of currently non-qualified and non-essential personnel out of work.  Don't give big business any more ideas on how to cut back and save money.
 
2013-11-24 07:29:16 PM
Please liberals understand:  You never tax the truly wealthy.  Those with assets over 10 million.  You end up taxing me and I am poor.  Your stupidity costs me while Warren Buffet laughs.
 
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