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(International Business Times)   That Lee Harvey Oswald guy? Just an ordinary, low-skill, underachieving US Marine intel operative, trained in Russian, who defected to the Soviets, then re-defected to the US, (with pay), and then infiltrated J Edgar Hoover's top domestic targets   (ibtimes.com ) divider line
    More: Weird, Lee Harvey Oswald, JFK, Soviet Union, Warren Commission, Russians, Dealey Plaza, Dallas Police Department, one-shot  
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6412 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Nov 2013 at 1:37 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-22 02:20:37 PM  
blogs.houstonpress.com

I always wear this hat on this day! It always bring me luck!
 
2013-11-22 02:20:41 PM  

Dharma Bumstead: kindms: for all the people that dismiss the conspiracy angle, you have to admit there are A LOT of things about the assassination that just don't add up.

The biggest thing for me would be why was Oswald allowed to return to the US after defecting ? This was the COMMIE!!! hur der era. You have a US Marine who defected to the Soviet Union and then wants to return home. OK so maybe they would have said OK but to make that happen in record speed for a time when no internet etc existed and cleared the way for him and his Soviet wife and according to this article loan him the money to return

***But Oswald didn't return to the U.S. in "record speed." It actually took more than a year.


The linked article says he was authorized to return in a matter of days. So maybe the travel took a while but according to this article he was given the ok in days.

add in all the other coincidences and it at the very least makes you question the official report IMHO
 
2013-11-22 02:22:10 PM  

Tax Boy: HARTMAN: Do any of you people know who Charles Whitman was? None of you dumbasses knows? Private Cowboy?

COWBOY: Sir, he was that guy who shot all those people from that tower in Austin, Texas, sir!

HARTMAN: That's affirmative. Charles Whitman killed twenty people from a twenty-eight-storey observation tower at the University of Texas from distances up to four hundred yards. Anybody know who Lee Harvey Oswald was? Private Snowball?

SNOWBALL: Sir, he shot Kennedy, sir!

HARTMAN: That's right, and do you know how far away he was?

SNOWBALL: Sir, it was pretty far! From that book suppository building, sir!

HARTMAN: All right, knock it off! Two hundred and fifty feet! He was two hundred and fifty feet away and shooting at a moving target. Oswald got off three rounds with an old Italian bolt action rifle in only six seconds and scored two hits, including a head shot! Do any of you people know where these individuals learned to shoot? Private Joker?

JOKER: Sir, in the Marines, sir!

HARTMAN: In the Marines! Outstanding! Those individuals showed what one motivated marine and his rifle can do! And before you ladies leave my island, you will be able to do the same thing!


'bout time.
 
2013-11-22 02:23:22 PM  
It was professor plum in the conservatory with a rope.
 
2013-11-22 02:25:08 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: dittybopper: He was the antithesis of a John Bircher.

Yet he was still their hero.


Much like the banner on the Fox News chopper on Futurama: "Not racist, but #1 with racists."

/Simpsons did it
 
2013-11-22 02:28:05 PM  
TheShavingofOccam123
2013-11-22 01:58:30 PM


Well, he did have the sense to meet with E. Howard Hunt at the US Embassy in Mexico just before JFK was shot.

It's a little disconcerting, if you think the Bush family had something to do with JFK's murder, to realize:

1. JFK murdered
2. next president one term
3. next president forced to resign
4. next president mentally ill
5. Bush

3 out, 1 never there, then Bush.

Democrat "math"
Kennedy
1 Johnson
2 Nixon
3 Ford
4 Carter
5 Reagan
6 Bush

I'm guessing poster didn't learn to count or write in cursive.
 
2013-11-22 02:28:45 PM  

special20: dittybopper: 1) [...]Why was the low-achieving, nondescript Oswald assigned to such a top secret and important base?

Because even bases like that need nondescript privates to watch radar scopes, which is what Oswald did.

[i1.ytimg.com image 850x478]


This thread was worth clicking on just to see Lacey.

/mmmmm...Lacey
 
2013-11-22 02:29:08 PM  

Conspiracy: R.I.P., Kennedy


[pbs.twimg.com image 400x500]


I'm pretending the first letter in that slogan on her shirt is a C
 
2013-11-22 02:29:29 PM  

kindms: for all the people that dismiss the conspiracy angle, you have to admit there are A LOT of things about the assassination that just don't add up.

The biggest thing for me would be why was Oswald allowed to return to the US after defecting ? This was the COMMIE!!! hur der era. You have a US Marine who defected to the Soviet Union and then wants to return home. OK so maybe they would have said OK but to make that happen in record speed for a time when no internet etc existed and cleared the way for him and his Soviet wife and according to this article loan him the money to return

Not sure why he wouldnt have been arrested or atleast charged with treason

If Oswald acted alone the only reason the documents surrounding the assassination are being kept secret would be that is shows the utter incompetence by the CIA and their involvement with Oswald. Add to that Oswald claiming to be a patsy, and the Raleigh call and there is a smell that comes off of the official explanation

Its been 50 years, the only reason I can think of that they would keep this stuff classified is it is embarrassing to people still alive.


If you bothered to research Oswald's actual story, instead of looking for holes in the account of what happened, there's no mystery there at all. Oswald had never formally renounced his U.S. citizenship, and there were no charges against him to prevent his return; he just asked for his passport. There was no law against "defecting" to the Soviet Union; as far the United States was concerned he was just visiting. The repatriation loan was a routine thing that any U.S. citizen could get. Marina was legally married to him, and thus automatically qualified for a visa.

The actual fact of Kennedy's assassination is that a disgruntled loser shot him because he wanted to be a big shot (in Cuba or the Soviet Union). Oswald had delusions of grandeur, like most presidential assassins, but he was otherwise a completely unimportant person. There is a mountain of evidence that proves that Oswald shot Kennedy from the book depository (and killed Tippet), and only a bunch of coincidental connections and supposition arguing against that mountain.
 
2013-11-22 02:29:37 PM  
Dharma Bumstead

***But Oswald didn't return to the U.S. in "record speed." It actually took more than a year.

A whole year to defect then return. Interesting. Who did it faster?
 
2013-11-22 02:30:24 PM  

Dharma Bumstead: kindms: for all the people that dismiss the conspiracy angle, you have to admit there are A LOT of things about the assassination that just don't add up.

The biggest thing for me would be why was Oswald allowed to return to the US after defecting ? This was the COMMIE!!! hur der era. You have a US Marine who defected to the Soviet Union and then wants to return home. OK so maybe they would have said OK but to make that happen in record speed for a time when no internet etc existed and cleared the way for him and his Soviet wife and according to this article loan him the money to return

***But Oswald didn't return to the U.S. in "record speed." It actually took more than a year.


Curious I took a look around and wiki says this

In March 1961, Oswald met [n 4][62] The Oswalds' first child, June, was born on February 15, 1962. On May 24, 1962, Oswald and Marina applied at the U.S. Embassy in Moscow for documents enabling her to immigrate to the U.S. and, on June 1, the U.S. Embassy gave Oswald a repatriation loan of $435.71.[63] Oswald, Marina, and their infant daughter left for the United States, where they received no attention from the press, much to Oswald's disappointment.[64]

But it also casts doubt on the authors questions. testimony from people that knew him etc seem to paint a different picture vs. the author of this article
 
2013-11-22 02:31:46 PM  

kindms: for all the people that dismiss the conspiracy angle, you have to admit there are A LOT of things about the assassination that just don't add up.

The biggest thing for me would be why was Oswald allowed to return to the US after defecting ? This was the COMMIE!!! hur der era. You have a US Marine who defected to the Soviet Union and then wants to return home. OK so maybe they would have said OK but to make that happen in record speed for a time when no internet etc existed and cleared the way for him and his Soviet wife and according to this article loan him the money to return

Not sure why he wouldnt have been arrested or atleast charged with treason

If Oswald acted alone the only reason the documents surrounding the assassination are being kept secret would be that is shows the utter incompetence by the CIA and their involvement with Oswald. Add to that Oswald claiming to be a patsy, and the Raleigh call and there is a smell that comes off of the official explanation

Its been 50 years, the only reason I can think of that they would keep this stuff classified is it is embarrassing to people still alive.


I agree. Besides all the stuff you said, I never understood why a minor mobster like Jack Ruby would throw his life away killing Oswald, or how security was bad enough that he could even pull it off.
 
2013-11-22 02:33:04 PM  

craigdamage: Hey! look at me!!!  I am an ex-marine with intel and communications training and speaks fluent Russian.
I think I will take a low pay job stacking books in this warehouse several miles from my home.

oh my gosh!!  you will NEVER guess who is scheduled to just happen to conveniently be driving by my window in a couple of weeks.

....oh look. The "human shield" secret service agents are NOT in position on the side of the car for some reason. Lucky me.


Oswald had a bunch of jobs. He quit most of them, or got fired for being an argumentative asshole. Yeah, that's the guy I'm going to start grooming at age 17 to be a master assassin. Also, the "some reason" was that Kennedy ordered them not to be on the car, because he didn't want to look like a tinpot dictator (as many in Dallas accused him of being).
 
2013-11-22 02:36:40 PM  
Pretty amazing that if the mafia/CIA/LBJ/Cuba/Aliens wanted to accomplish the most high profile murder in modern history they would pick two flaky, neurotic halfwits like LHO and Jack Ruby to carry it out.    They must have been really hard up for assassins and hit men in those days.

"Who can we get to pull this off?"

"Obviously we get the weirdo nutter who just failed in his attempt to assassinate a Texas Gubernatorial candidate.   He's as reliable as they come.    And to cover that up we'll murder him with the the 3rd rate gangster wannabe, who the mafia made fun of and kept at a distance for being a blabbermouth .... he's the perfect guy to keep our secrets."
 
2013-11-22 02:37:54 PM  
I read that a witness said LBJ started ducking down in his car 30 or 40 seconds before the first shots were fired.
He ducked down before they turned on to Elm Street.

He must be a psychic.
 
2013-11-22 02:41:17 PM  

Magnanimous_J: kindms: for all the people that dismiss the conspiracy angle, you have to admit there are A LOT of things about the assassination that just don't add up.

The biggest thing for me would be why was Oswald allowed to return to the US after defecting ? This was the COMMIE!!! hur der era. You have a US Marine who defected to the Soviet Union and then wants to return home. OK so maybe they would have said OK but to make that happen in record speed for a time when no internet etc existed and cleared the way for him and his Soviet wife and according to this article loan him the money to return

Not sure why he wouldnt have been arrested or atleast charged with treason

If Oswald acted alone the only reason the documents surrounding the assassination are being kept secret would be that is shows the utter incompetence by the CIA and their involvement with Oswald. Add to that Oswald claiming to be a patsy, and the Raleigh call and there is a smell that comes off of the official explanation

Its been 50 years, the only reason I can think of that they would keep this stuff classified is it is embarrassing to people still alive.

I agree. Besides all the stuff you said, I never understood why a minor mobster like Jack Ruby would throw his life away killing Oswald, or how security was bad enough that he could even pull it off.


Jack Ruby wasn't a mobster. He was semi-connected to mobsters, but he was basically a small-time club owner. He was also a cop groupie who was ALWAYS hanging around at the Dallas PD (and security back then was way more informal than it is now), and he was an unstable hothead who worshipped Kennedy and routinely carried a pistol. It's a matter of established fact that he could not have known when Oswald was being transferred, and that Ruby arrived almost precisely when Oswald was coming out two hours later than scheduled. It would have been impossible to set that up other than coincidentally. Ruby was dropping off dry cleaning (they have the timed receipt), and just popped in on an impulse. Unfortunately for Oswald, the timing was perfect for what happened.
 
2013-11-22 02:41:55 PM  
Who among us doesn't daily bring a weapon into work on the off chance that a presidential motorcade will be rerouted to pass close enough for a shot?
 
2013-11-22 02:43:01 PM  

trappedspirit: Who among us doesn't daily bring a weapon into work on the off chance that a presidential motorcade will be rerouted to pass close enough for a shot?


Careful.  There may actually be a few here.
 
2013-11-22 02:46:44 PM  

Oldiron_79: It was professor plum in the conservatory with a rope.


You sank my battleship!

Can you tell I used to care A LOT about this stuff? I thought it mattered a ton that we figure out the reality behind Kennedy's death. That's because I was bored as heck in high school and all the social studies teachers were fellow left-wing conspiracy nuts. Proposing the repeal of the NSA Act of 1947 got my team an A in Government.

Then I went to college. They had the Internet (it was 1992), and a radio station, and girls, and pot, and philosophy, and comp lit, and 5¢ cups of coffee.

Now everything seems like Helen of Troy living with Menelaus in the Odyssey: "oh wow, y'all fought a war over me? Gee, really. I can't remember what the fuss was about..." I used to be enraged about her attitude as well.

I don't have the same energy now, I'm at not as willing to give it away. I know that I only make a difference when I do something positive for others. Getting hung up on the order of the frames in the Zapruder film will never be as interesting as building a server or figuring out the analogy that makes a customer say "aha! Now I get you."

Besides, I saw Red Dwarf. JFK from another timeline kills himself.

/they melvin'd me
 
2013-11-22 02:48:37 PM  

mbillips: craigdamage: Hey! look at me!!!  I am an ex-marine with intel and communications training and speaks fluent Russian.
I think I will take a low pay job stacking books in this warehouse several miles from my home.

oh my gosh!!  you will NEVER guess who is scheduled to just happen to conveniently be driving by my window in a couple of weeks.

....oh look. The "human shield" secret service agents are NOT in position on the side of the car for some reason. Lucky me.

Oswald had a bunch of jobs. He quit most of them, or got fired for being an argumentative asshole. Yeah, that's the guy I'm going to start grooming at age 17 to be a master assassin. Also, the "some reason" was that Kennedy ordered them not to be on the car, because he didn't want to look like a tinpot dictator (as many in Dallas accused him of being).


Think about it. The CIA, the mob, the Russians and the Cubans killed JFK. At least that's what I have been reading on Fark for the last few days. And ALL of the people that make these claims also tell you that there's irrefutable evidence that their particular accused group did it. So I will assume somehow the CIA, mob, Russians and Cubans got together and killed JFK. It makes sense.

Study it out!
 
2013-11-22 02:54:25 PM  

mbillips: Jack Ruby wasn't a mobster. He was semi-connected to mobsters, but he was basically a small-time club owner. He was also a cop groupie who was ALWAYS hanging around at the Dallas PD (and security back then was way more informal than it is now), and he was an unstable hothead who worshipped Kennedy and routinely carried a pistol. It's a matter of established fact that he could not have known when Oswald was being transferred, and that Ruby arrived almost precisely when Oswald was coming out two hours later than scheduled. It would have been impossible to set that up other than coincidentally. Ruby was dropping off dry cleaning (they have the timed receipt), and just popped in on an impulse. Unfortunately for Oswald, the timing was perfect for what happened.



   He also was sending a money order to a stripper moments before he showed up at the police station, which seems like an odd errand to try to shoehorn in before pulling off a precisely planned hit.
 
2013-11-22 02:54:51 PM  

Two16: Resident Muslim: Face it, guys. Everything is a coincidence.


(Except when it is not)

No such animal.


There is nothing but coincidence.
 
2013-11-22 02:55:18 PM  
If there are any Farkers who haven't seen The Onion's take on all this:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/november-22-1963,10584/
 
2013-11-22 02:57:39 PM  

trappedspirit: Who among us doesn't daily bring a weapon into work on the off chance that a presidential motorcade will be rerouted to pass close enough for a shot?


Main Street is only about 50-70 yards farther away from the school book depository, with no obstructions between the sixth-floor window and the street. It would have been a tougher shot, but certainly makeable for Oswald.
 
2013-11-22 03:00:24 PM  

mbillips: trappedspirit: Who among us doesn't daily bring a weapon into work on the off chance that a presidential motorcade will be rerouted to pass close enough for a shot?

Main Street is only about 50-70 yards farther away from the school book depository, with no obstructions between the sixth-floor window and the street. It would have been a tougher shot, but certainly makeable for Oswald.


Not close enough to the grassy knoll for the headshot.
 
2013-11-22 03:03:39 PM  

Magnanimous_J: I agree. Besides all the stuff you said, I never understood why a minor mobster like Jack Ruby would throw his life away killing Oswald, or how security was bad enough that he could even pull it off.


Watch footage of the scene at the police department before LHO was murdered, and it's really not hard to believe that Ruby could get close enough to pull it off.  The place was a chaotic zoo and so packed with various people that they couldn't even walk down the hallways.   Nothing was cordoned off.   Random dudes were just standing there gabbing.   The only "security" to speak of were the escorts walking with Oswald.

Clearly it was a different era when it came to the concepts of security and access (as evidenced by the fact that the President was riding in the back of an open covertable through streets adjacent to buildings with open windows).    One of these days our children and grandchildren are going to incredulously ask us how people got into airports without having to go through security or how you could wait at a terminal gate without a ticket to meet someone.
 
2013-11-22 03:07:23 PM  

jrodr018: mbillips: craigdamage: Hey! look at me!!!  I am an ex-marine with intel and communications training and speaks fluent Russian.
I think I will take a low pay job stacking books in this warehouse several miles from my home.

oh my gosh!!  you will NEVER guess who is scheduled to just happen to conveniently be driving by my window in a couple of weeks.

....oh look. The "human shield" secret service agents are NOT in position on the side of the car for some reason. Lucky me.

Oswald had a bunch of jobs. He quit most of them, or got fired for being an argumentative asshole. Yeah, that's the guy I'm going to start grooming at age 17 to be a master assassin. Also, the "some reason" was that Kennedy ordered them not to be on the car, because he didn't want to look like a tinpot dictator (as many in Dallas accused him of being).

Think about it. The CIA, the mob, the Russians and the Cubans killed JFK. At least that's what I have been reading on Fark for the last few days. And ALL of the people that make these claims also tell you that there's irrefutable evidence that their particular accused group did it. So I will assume somehow the CIA, mob, Russians and Cubans got together and killed JFK. It makes sense.

Study it out!


What drives me nuts is that the conspiracy theorists think it's a great revelation when they find some tiny inconsistency or unexpected juxtaposition in the Oswald-acted-alone theory. But they never put up any sort of details for their OWN theories, which fall apart on closer examination. That's what I liked so much about "Case Closed." Posner not only documented exactly how and why Oswald did it, he shot holes in all the conspiracy theories.
 
2013-11-22 03:08:06 PM  

mutterfark: I thought it was, after all, you and me?


DAmn you!! Now I have the earbug
 
2013-11-22 03:09:13 PM  

mbillips: Jack Ruby wasn't a mobster. He was semi-connected to mobsters, but he was basically a small-time club owner. He was also a cop groupie who was ALWAYS hanging around at the Dallas PD (and security back then was way more informal than it is now), and he was an unstable hothead who worshipped Kennedy and routinely carried a pistol. It's a matter of established fact that he could not have known when Oswald was being transferred, and that Ruby arrived almost precisely when Oswald was coming out two hours later than scheduled. It would have been impossible to set that up other than coincidentally. Ruby was dropping off dry cleaning (they have the timed receipt), and just popped in on an impulse. Unfortunately for Oswald, the timing was perfect for what happened.


I'm not disputing any of that. The way I read it, Jack Ruby was a total wannabe. But the mobsters that he was loosely connected to were the same mobsters that the Kennedy family made their fortune with in bootlegging days. They also lost huge money when Castro kicked all the mob run casinos off Cuba and the same mobsters that the CIA worked with to try and kill Castro.

So you've got this interconnected cast of players that include the mafia, the Soviets, the CIA, the military industrial complex, militant conservatives, an ambitious and mildly deranged vice president and all these other groups; none of whom are uncomfortable with public assassinations. Then you've got Oswald, some hapless serial loser who goes on this charmed tour of the world, comes back and is in precisely the right place at the right time with a rifle and shoots JFK. He's arrested and processed under weird circumstances and then the most notorious man in the world gets popped at random by a wannabe gangster who was dropping off laundry.

I'm not saying I have a theory, but with all these sharks in the water, I find it hard to believe that the seal was eaten by a clown fish.
 
2013-11-22 03:13:08 PM  

mbillips: conspiracy theorists think it's a great revelation when they find some tiny inconsistency or unexpected juxtaposition in the Oswald-acted-alone theory. But they never put up any sort of details for their OWN theories, which fall apart on closer examination. That's what I liked so much about "Case Closed." Posner not only documented exactly how and why Oswald did it, he shot holes in all the conspiracy theories.


Came here for THIS ^^^
 
2013-11-22 03:13:35 PM  

CokeBear: mbillips: trappedspirit: Who among us doesn't daily bring a weapon into work on the off chance that a presidential motorcade will be rerouted to pass close enough for a shot?

Main Street is only about 50-70 yards farther away from the school book depository, with no obstructions between the sixth-floor window and the street. It would have been a tougher shot, but certainly makeable for Oswald.

Not close enough to the grassy knoll for the headshot.


Nobody with a gun was on the grassy knoll. The headshot hit Kennedy in the back of his head and blew his brains out the front; that's visible on the Zapruder film and matches the autopsy. The only evidence supporting the idea of a second shooter was the dictabelt recording that the House Select Committee gave weight to, and that's since been thoroughly debunked as happening AFTER the shooting.
 
2013-11-22 03:15:31 PM  

mbillips: What drives me nuts is that the conspiracy theorists think it's a great revelation when they find some tiny inconsistency or unexpected juxtaposition in the Oswald-acted-alone theory. But they never put up any sort of details for their OWN theories, which fall apart on closer examination. That's what I liked so much about "Case Closed." Posner not only documented exactly how and why Oswald did it, he shot holes in all the conspiracy theories.


I like when openly laugh and make fun of the OJ Jury for ignoring the mountain of evidence and completely disregarding Occam's Razor for some slight bit of inconsistency (Sure there was DNA Evidence everywhere linking him to the crime ..... but the Glove didn't fit!!), but they do the same exact thing relentlessly when it comes to their own pet Conspiracy Theories.
 
2013-11-22 03:15:58 PM  

Magnanimous_J: mbillips: Jack Ruby wasn't a mobster. He was semi-connected to mobsters, but he was basically a small-time club owner. He was also a cop groupie who was ALWAYS hanging around at the Dallas PD (and security back then was way more informal than it is now), and he was an unstable hothead who worshipped Kennedy and routinely carried a pistol. It's a matter of established fact that he could not have known when Oswald was being transferred, and that Ruby arrived almost precisely when Oswald was coming out two hours later than scheduled. It would have been impossible to set that up other than coincidentally. Ruby was dropping off dry cleaning (they have the timed receipt), and just popped in on an impulse. Unfortunately for Oswald, the timing was perfect for what happened.

I'm not disputing any of that. The way I read it, Jack Ruby was a total wannabe. But the mobsters that he was loosely connected to were the same mobsters that the Kennedy family made their fortune with in bootlegging days. They also lost huge money when Castro kicked all the mob run casinos off Cuba and the same mobsters that the CIA worked with to try and kill Castro.

So you've got this interconnected cast of players that include the mafia, the Soviets, the CIA, the military industrial complex, militant conservatives, an ambitious and mildly deranged vice president and all these other groups; none of whom are uncomfortable with public assassinations. Then you've got Oswald, some hapless serial loser who goes on this charmed tour of the world, comes back and is in precisely the right place at the right time with a rifle and shoots JFK. He's arrested and processed under weird circumstances and then the most notorious man in the world gets popped at random by a wannabe gangster who was dropping off laundry.

I'm not saying I have a theory, but with all these sharks in the water, I find it hard to believe that the seal was eaten by a clown fish.


I'd be really surprised ALL of those sharks found common ground to achieve a common goal. Very hard to believe.
 
2013-11-22 03:17:51 PM  
mbillips:

If you bothered to research Oswald's actual story, instead of looking for holes in the account of what happened, there's no mystery there at all. Oswald had never formally renounced his U.S. citizenship, and there were no charges against him to prevent his return; he just asked for his passport. There was no law against "defecting" to the Soviet Union; as far the United States was concerned he was just visiting. The repatriation loan was a routine thing that any U.S. citizen could get. Marina was legally married to him, and thus automatically qualified for a visa.

The actual fact of Kennedy's assassination is that a disgruntled loser shot him because he wanted to be a big shot (in Cuba or the Soviet Union). Oswald had delusions of grandeur, like most presidential assassins, but he was otherwise a completely unimportant person. There is a mountain of ev ...


****Thumbs up.
 
2013-11-22 03:18:30 PM  

Magnanimous_J: So you've got this interconnected cast of players that include the mafia, the Soviets, the CIA, the military industrial complex, militant conservatives, an ambitious and mildly deranged vice president and all these other groups; none of whom are uncomfortable with public assassinations.


So, minus the Soviets, pretty much the same people that pulled off 911.
 
2013-11-22 03:21:52 PM  

Devo: bionicjoe: I just don't care anymore.
Sorry baby-boomers. I don't care where you were on 'that' day.  My kids soon won't care where I was on 9/11.

This shiat has been fueling every wingnutted moonbat for decades, and Facebook makes them think there in the know with the real thinkers of society. Cut this shiat out.


I had a member of the greatest generation get mad at me for working on Pearl Harbor day.

You won't have to worry about the media blitz for another 50 years.


12/7 is easy for me to remember. My Dad, my Shih Tzu Mickey, and Larry Bird were all born on that day. Here's the Mickster


farm6.staticflickr.com
Speaking of Larry Bird, I also remember where I was when I heard that Len Bias died.
 
2013-11-22 03:21:52 PM  

Magnanimous_J: I'm not disputing any of that. The way I read it, Jack Ruby was a total wannabe. But the mobsters that he was loosely connected to were the same mobsters that the Kennedy family made their fortune with in bootlegging days. They also lost huge money when Castro kicked all the mob run casinos off Cuba and the same mobsters that the CIA worked with to try and kill Castro.

So you've got this interconnected cast of players that include the mafia, the Soviets, the CIA, the military industrial complex, militant conservatives, an ambitious and mildly deranged vice president and all these other groups; none of whom are uncomfortable with public assassinations. Then you've got Oswald, some hapless serial loser who goes on this charmed tour of the world, comes back and is in precisely the right place at the right time with a rifle and shoots JFK. He's arrested and processed under weird circumstances and then the most notorious man in the world gets popped at random by a wannabe gangster who was dropping off laundry.

I'm not saying I have a theory, but with all these sharks in the water, I find it hard to believe that the seal was eaten by a clown fish.


With all these interconnected casts of players who coordinated to pull this off, we can't get one deathbed confession or blabbermouth wanting 15 minutes of fame and a book deal uncovering the biggest story in modern history after 50 years?
 
2013-11-22 03:22:50 PM  
Magnanimous_J:

I agree. Besides all the stuff you said, I never understood why a minor mobster like Jack Ruby would throw his life away killing Oswald, or how security was bad enough that he could even pull it off.

****Ruby was not a minor mobster. Did he know organized crime figures in Dallas? Sure. But Ruby knew lots of people in Dallas. That is what he did, ingratiated himself with those he thought important and access to important places. Ruby's adult life was spent in the pursuit of "class."

Find a copy of Gary Wills and Ovid Demarest's book on Ruby. They did many interviews with people who actually knew Ruby, What he did in the police department basement was completely in character - Ruby was impulsive and had an explosive temper.
 
2013-11-22 03:23:11 PM  

mbillips: trappedspirit: Who among us doesn't daily bring a weapon into work on the off chance that a presidential motorcade will be rerouted to pass close enough for a shot?

Main Street is only about 50-70 yards farther away from the school book depository, with no obstructions between the sixth-floor window and the street. It would have been a tougher shot, but certainly makeable for Oswald.


He already missed two out of three.
 
2013-11-22 03:24:56 PM  

Magnanimous_J: mbillips: Jack Ruby wasn't a mobster. He was semi-connected to mobsters, but he was basically a small-time club owner. He was also a cop groupie who was ALWAYS hanging around at the Dallas PD (and security back then was way more informal than it is now), and he was an unstable hothead who worshipped Kennedy and routinely carried a pistol. It's a matter of established fact that he could not have known when Oswald was being transferred, and that Ruby arrived almost precisely when Oswald was coming out two hours later than scheduled. It would have been impossible to set that up other than coincidentally. Ruby was dropping off dry cleaning (they have the timed receipt), and just popped in on an impulse. Unfortunately for Oswald, the timing was perfect for what happened.

I'm not disputing any of that. The way I read it, Jack Ruby was a total wannabe. But the mobsters that he was loosely connected to were the same mobsters that the Kennedy family made their fortune with in bootlegging days. They also lost huge money when Castro kicked all the mob run casinos off Cuba and the same mobsters that the CIA worked with to try and kill Castro.

So you've got this interconnected cast of players that include the mafia, the Soviets, the CIA, the military industrial complex, militant conservatives, an ambitious and mildly deranged vice president and all these other groups; none of whom are uncomfortable with public assassinations. Then you've got Oswald, some hapless serial loser who goes on this charmed tour of the world, comes back and is in precisely the right place at the right time with a rifle and shoots JFK. He's arrested and processed under weird circumstances and then the most notorious man in the world gets popped at random by a wannabe gangster who was dropping off laundry.

I'm not saying I have a theory, but with all these sharks in the water, I find it hard to believe that the seal was eaten by a clown fish.


You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

1. The evidence that Joe Kennedy had any involvement in bootlegging is VERY slim, and there's no direct tie between him and the Chicago Outfit (who are the branch of the mob supposedly out to get Kennedy). If he was involved in rum running, it would have been with Boston gangsters, not Chicago ones. He was in the liquor business, but legally. If the mob wanted to shoot someone for not helping them after they supposedly delivered Chicago's votes, they would have shot Bobby first.

2. Oswald's travels are unremarkable for someone who was in the military and an avowed Marxist. He went to Japan with the Marines (that's where most Marines wind up at some point in their careers), he moved to the Soviet Union until he figured out he was just as big a loser under communism, and he lived in New Orleans, Fort Worth and Dallas, with a short trip to Mexico to continue trying to convince the commies he was a valuable asset. Hardly a "charmed world tour." By the time I was Oswald's age, I'd lived in several U.S. cities, in New Zealand and had traveled with the Navy to most of Europe and the Middle East.

3. Being in the "precise time and place" happened because THAT'S WHERE OSWALD WAS when Kennedy drove by in an open car. With a newspaper announcement days in advance, and Oswald already busily trying to become an assassin (Edwin Walker survived only because a window muntin deflected the shot). If Oswald hadn't worked at the book depository, he probably would have set up a sniper's nest somewhere else along the route.
 
2013-11-22 03:27:08 PM  
InmanRoshi:
Watch footage of the scene at the police department before LHO was murdered, and it's really not hard to believe that Ruby could get close enough to pull it off.  The place was a chaotic zoo and so packed with various people that they couldn't even walk down the hallways.   Nothing was cordoned off.   Random dudes were just standing there gabbing.   The only "security" to speak of were the escorts walking with Oswald.

Clearly it was a different era when it came to the concepts of security and access (as evidenced by the fact that the President was riding in the back of an open covertable through streets adjacent to buildings with open windows).    One of these days our children and grandchildren are going to incredulously ask us how people got into airports without having to go through security or how you could wait at a terminal gate without a ticket to meet someone.


***As a reporter who has spent my share of time in police departments, it absolutely amazes me when I read descriptions of what was going on in the Dallas Police Department that weekend. All the people coming and going, the reporters just hanging out in the hallway, Oswald being taken in and out fo those same hallways. It was such a different time.
 
2013-11-22 03:27:21 PM  

InmanRoshi: Magnanimous_J: I agree. Besides all the stuff you said, I never understood why a minor mobster like Jack Ruby would throw his life away killing Oswald, or how security was bad enough that he could even pull it off.

Watch footage of the scene at the police department before LHO was murdered, and it's really not hard to believe that Ruby could get close enough to pull it off.  The place was a chaotic zoo and so packed with various people that they couldn't even walk down the hallways.   Nothing was cordoned off.   Random dudes were just standing there gabbing.   The only "security" to speak of were the escorts walking with Oswald.

Clearly it was a different era when it came to the concepts of security and access (as evidenced by the fact that the President was riding in the back of an open covertable through streets adjacent to buildings with open windows).    One of these days our children and grandchildren are going to incredulously ask us how people got into airports without having to go through security or how you could wait at a terminal gate without a ticket to meet someone.


People often translate what they know of "now" to the scenes they witness of lots of famous and/or controverisal events. It is only natural. Look at the photo, though. The whole damn thing is an anachronism; people smoking, the hats, Oswalt escorted out in plain sight. Everything looks so weird compared to today, to me.
 
2013-11-22 03:27:39 PM  
I was given to understand that it was the Cigarette Smoking Man what did Kennedy in.

/ let me please introduce myself.
 
2013-11-22 03:28:23 PM  
When I was younger I wanted to put out a parody of Clue based on all the supposed conspiracy theories around the JFK assassination but have the right answer always be Lee Harvey Oswald, In the Book Depository, with the rifle
 
2013-11-22 03:36:13 PM  

Resident Muslim: Ok, fine, now that you got all the jokes out of your system (and I expect nothing less from fellow Farkers, and of course nothing more), allow me to rephrase the question:
If the president suddenly wanted to befriend all non-allies, and at whatever conditions, or suddenly came up with a VERY weird presidential order is there anyone/body that can order a psychological evaluation?


Well, there'd be an invocation of section 4 of the 25th amendment (or at least consideration of that). The president can fight that invocation, and Congress would settle the matter.

No one could directly order a psych eval though.
 
2013-11-22 03:36:41 PM  

Magnanimous_J: mbillips: Jack Ruby wasn't a mobster. He was semi-connected to mobsters, but he was basically a small-time club owner. He was also a cop groupie who was ALWAYS hanging around at the Dallas PD (and security back then was way more informal than it is now), and he was an unstable hothead who worshipped Kennedy and routinely carried a pistol. It's a matter of established fact that he could not have known when Oswald was being transferred, and that Ruby arrived almost precisely when Oswald was coming out two hours later than scheduled. It would have been impossible to set that up other than coincidentally. Ruby was dropping off dry cleaning (they have the timed receipt), and just popped in on an impulse. Unfortunately for Oswald, the timing was perfect for what happened.

I'm not disputing any of that. The way I read it, Jack Ruby was a total wannabe. But the mobsters that he was loosely connected to were the same mobsters that the Kennedy family made their fortune with in bootlegging days. They also lost huge money when Castro kicked all the mob run casinos off Cuba and the same mobsters that the CIA worked with to try and kill Castro.

So you've got this interconnected cast of players that include the mafia, the Soviets, the CIA, the military industrial complex, militant conservatives, an ambitious and mildly deranged vice president and all these other groups; none of whom are uncomfortable with public assassinations. Then you've got Oswald, some hapless serial loser who goes on this charmed tour of the world, comes back and is in precisely the right place at the right time with a rifle and shoots JFK. He's arrested and processed under weird circumstances and then the most notorious man in the world gets popped at random by a wannabe gangster who was dropping off laundry.

I'm not saying I have a theory, but with all these sharks in the water, I find it hard to believe that the seal was eaten by a clown fish.


You and me both. Oswald may have been the lone shooter, but I'll never be convinced he acted alone.
 
2013-11-22 03:38:00 PM  

trappedspirit: mbillips: trappedspirit: Who among us doesn't daily bring a weapon into work on the off chance that a presidential motorcade will be rerouted to pass close enough for a shot?

Main Street is only about 50-70 yards farther away from the school book depository, with no obstructions between the sixth-floor window and the street. It would have been a tougher shot, but certainly makeable for Oswald.

He already missed two out of three.


One out of three, and the first one probably was deflected by a tree branch. No. 2 was the neck shot, and No. 3 was a precise headshot. It's not a difficult shot; they did it on a TV special and hit the "head" all three times, using the same model Carcano. Here's probably the best roundup of all the evidence:  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/biographies/oswald/conspiracy - cases-for-and-against/
 
2013-11-22 03:45:10 PM  

John Buck 41: Magnanimous_J: mbillips: Jack Ruby wasn't a mobster. He was semi-connected to mobsters, but he was basically a small-time club owner. He was also a cop groupie who was ALWAYS hanging around at the Dallas PD (and security back then was way more informal than it is now), and he was an unstable hothead who worshipped Kennedy and routinely carried a pistol. It's a matter of established fact that he could not have known when Oswald was being transferred, and that Ruby arrived almost precisely when Oswald was coming out two hours later than scheduled. It would have been impossible to set that up other than coincidentally. Ruby was dropping off dry cleaning (they have the timed receipt), and just popped in on an impulse. Unfortunately for Oswald, the timing was perfect for what happened.

I'm not disputing any of that. The way I read it, Jack Ruby was a total wannabe. But the mobsters that he was loosely connected to were the same mobsters that the Kennedy family made their fortune with in bootlegging days. They also lost huge money when Castro kicked all the mob run casinos off Cuba and the same mobsters that the CIA worked with to try and kill Castro.

So you've got this interconnected cast of players that include the mafia, the Soviets, the CIA, the military industrial complex, militant conservatives, an ambitious and mildly deranged vice president and all these other groups; none of whom are uncomfortable with public assassinations. Then you've got Oswald, some hapless serial loser who goes on this charmed tour of the world, comes back and is in precisely the right place at the right time with a rifle and shoots JFK. He's arrested and processed under weird circumstances and then the most notorious man in the world gets popped at random by a wannabe gangster who was dropping off laundry.

I'm not saying I have a theory, but with all these sharks in the water, I find it hard to believe that the seal was eaten by a clown fish.

You and me both. Oswald may have been the lone shooter, but I'll never be convinced he acted alone.


There was the voice in his head that told him to take the scope off his rifle and "trust his feelings"
 
2013-11-22 03:45:12 PM  
If nothing else, this is a primer for all future designers of conspiracies.  Where the addition of a single new `fact' results in absolutely divergent conclusions.

/did enjoy DeLillo's, Libra
 
2013-11-22 03:47:00 PM  

Sticky Hands: TheShavingofOccam123: Well, he did have the sense to meet with E. Howard Hunt at the US Embassy in Mexico just before JFK was shot.

It's a little disconcerting, if you think the Bush family had something to do with JFK's murder, to realize:

1. JFK murdered
2. next president one term
3. next president forced to resign
4. next president mentally ill
5. Bush

3 out, 1 never there, then Bush.

Kennedy
Johnson
Nixon
Ford
Carter
Regan
Bush


I was on a roll.

/but still Ford appointed, one term. Carter one term. Nutcase then Bush.
/I know...I need to up my meds I guess
 
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