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(International Business Times)   That Lee Harvey Oswald guy? Just an ordinary, low-skill, underachieving US Marine intel operative, trained in Russian, who defected to the Soviets, then re-defected to the US, (with pay), and then infiltrated J Edgar Hoover's top domestic targets   (ibtimes.com) divider line 137
    More: Weird, Lee Harvey Oswald, JFK, Soviet Union, Warren Commission, Russians, Dealey Plaza, Dallas Police Department, one-shot  
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6200 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Nov 2013 at 1:37 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-22 03:47:00 PM  

Sticky Hands: TheShavingofOccam123: Well, he did have the sense to meet with E. Howard Hunt at the US Embassy in Mexico just before JFK was shot.

It's a little disconcerting, if you think the Bush family had something to do with JFK's murder, to realize:

1. JFK murdered
2. next president one term
3. next president forced to resign
4. next president mentally ill
5. Bush

3 out, 1 never there, then Bush.

Kennedy
Johnson
Nixon
Ford
Carter
Regan
Bush


I was on a roll.

/but still Ford appointed, one term. Carter one term. Nutcase then Bush.
/I know...I need to up my meds I guess
 
2013-11-22 03:51:14 PM  
then what happened?

www.zuguide.com
 
2013-11-22 03:53:02 PM  
I caught a part of a radio interview today with one of the secret service agents that was there. The host asked him what was the deal with the two agents that were jogging behind the presidential limo and then were told to "stand down" and then there was some confusion on their parts, so much so that one agent threw his hands up a few times in a WTF manner.

here is the video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6OWcujJSCU

So when I heard this question asked I stopped what I was doing to listen because I was thinking there has to be a reasonable explanation to this from one of the agents that was there.

His explanation was that those particular agents had other things to do and that they were going to get lunch and was telling the other guys bye.

Seems legit.
 
2013-11-22 03:56:09 PM  
mbillips:
1. The evidence that Joe Kennedy had any involvement in bootlegging is VERY slim, and there's no direct tie between him and the Chicago Outfit (who are the branch of the mob supposedly out to get Kennedy). If he was involved in rum running, it would have been with Boston gangsters, not Chicago ones. He was in the liquor business, but legally.

Whenever you hear stories about Prohibition that mention the legal/"medicinal" side of it, they always casually mention that a large part of the "legal" alcohol sales were pretty much illegal, and that the cops all looked the other way because of official approval - they had to get their own booze somewhere, after all.
 
2013-11-22 04:05:40 PM  
mbillips:
One out of three, and the first one probably was deflected by a tree branch. No. 2 was the neck shot, and No. 3 was a precise headshot. It's not a difficult shot; they did it on a TV special and hit the "head" all three times, using the same model Carcano.

For someone with a scoped rifle, aiming at a human-sized target moving on a predictable path away from the shooter, it's a surprisingly easy shot.

When I went to the location, I was shocked at how short the range was. The whole thing happened at a distance of under 100 yards. Any decent shooter could hit a human-sized target at that range with iron sights, much less a scope.
 
2013-11-22 04:13:51 PM  

GrizzledVeteran: If there are any Farkers who haven't seen The Onion's take on all this:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/november-22-1963,10584/


A classic!
 
2013-11-22 04:22:14 PM  

pseydtonne: Besides, I saw Red Dwarf. JFK from another timeline kills himself.

/they melvin'd me



That was a great episode.
 
2013-11-22 04:24:34 PM  

mbillips: trappedspirit: mbillips: trappedspirit: Who among us doesn't daily bring a weapon into work on the off chance that a presidential motorcade will be rerouted to pass close enough for a shot?

Main Street is only about 50-70 yards farther away from the school book depository, with no obstructions between the sixth-floor window and the street. It would have been a tougher shot, but certainly makeable for Oswald.

He already missed two out of three.

One out of three, and the first one probably was deflected by a tree branch. No. 2 was the neck shot, and No. 3 was a precise headshot. It's not a difficult shot; they did it on a TV special and hit the "head" all three times, using the same model Carcano. Here's probably the best roundup of all the evidence:  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/biographies/oswald/conspiracy - cases-for-and-against/


If he was going for a neck shot on number two.  I don't think he was.  But I love your tree branch theory.  And yeah, I've seen the shot on TV from the distance the rerouted motorcade was traveling.  If they had remained on main street I think it could be argued that given his marksmanship skills demonstrated (minus the tree branch theory) his chances of making the fatal shot would have made it a "plan stopper", had this whole thing been worked out by some experts.
 
2013-11-22 04:26:13 PM  

Resident Muslim: Theoretical question:
If, IF, it was an inside job...who has the authority to sanction this?

Isn't the president supposed to be the top of the pyramid?


George ..   i thought i told you to stay of the computer ...
www.motherjones.com
 
2013-11-22 04:32:48 PM  

dittybopper: No, he wasn't: He tried to assassinate a prominent John Bircher, Edwin Walker.


Give it up, these people will fight to the death for their right to derp.
 
2013-11-22 05:08:25 PM  

Magorn: dittybopper: Magorn: And was a nephew of a bookie for the New Orleans Mob which just happened to be run by Carlos Marcello who had a pretty big Grudge against JFK and RFK for getting him deported and nearly mugged and murdered in Guatemala

My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Oswald sitting with a mobster at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious.

Oh and did I mention Marcello was helping  Ruby with a Labor beef at his club at the time as well?


Still, I've heard, from a reliable source under circumstances that mean I can't share, that the real reason Kennedy was killed (by Oswald BTW) may have been WAY more picayune than a grudge by Marcello


Not to mention that the mafia rigged the election for JFK in Illinois and California, and JFK "thanked" the mafia by putting RFK as AG, who then proceeded to crack down on the mafia.
 
2013-11-22 05:31:00 PM  

cirby: mbillips:
1. The evidence that Joe Kennedy had any involvement in bootlegging is VERY slim, and there's no direct tie between him and the Chicago Outfit (who are the branch of the mob supposedly out to get Kennedy). If he was involved in rum running, it would have been with Boston gangsters, not Chicago ones. He was in the liquor business, but legally.

Whenever you hear stories about Prohibition that mention the legal/"medicinal" side of it, they always casually mention that a large part of the "legal" alcohol sales were pretty much illegal, and that the cops all looked the other way because of official approval - they had to get their own booze somewhere, after all.


Read "Last Call: The Rise and Fall of Prohibition." There was a LOT of legal liquor sold during Prohibition. It was basically like medical marijuana today; all you needed was a doctor's prescription, and you could buy it at a pharmacy. Also, you could make up to five gallons a year of wine (legally, as long as you didn't sell it), and farmers were allowed to make unlimited amounts of hard cider (but again, they couldn't sell it). Kennedy has no documented connection to bootlegging or any violations of the Volstead Act in the '20s, but he was openly involved in the legal alcohol business, after Prohibition ended, and his contacts were with legit, connected rich people (including the Roosevelts), not with former bootleggers. Nobody has ever produced a shred of credible evidence that Kennedy was involved in bootlegging. It's an urban legend.
 
2013-11-22 05:36:05 PM  

InmanRoshi: I like when openly laugh and make fun of the OJ Jury for ignoring the mountain of evidence and completely disregarding Occam's Razor for some slight bit of inconsistency (Sure there was DNA Evidence everywhere linking him to the crime ..... but the Glove didn't fit!!), but they do the same exact thing relentlessly when it comes to their own pet Conspiracy Theories.


OJ's biggest coup was Mark Furman. Once you think the evidence is tainted, it doesn't matter how much of it there is. Rotten apples poison the barrel.
 
2013-11-22 05:40:19 PM  
InmanRoshi:
....
Clearly it was a different era when it came to the concepts of security and access (as evidenced by the fact that the President was riding in the back of an open covertable through streets adjacent to buildings with open windows).    One of these days our children and grandchildren are going to incredulously ask us how people got into airports. without having to go through security or how you could wait at a terminal gate without a ticket to meet someone.
 
2013-11-22 05:45:26 PM  

InmanRoshi: Pretty amazing that if the mafia/CIA/LBJ/Cuba/Aliens wanted to accomplish the most high profile murder in modern history they would pick two flaky, neurotic halfwits like LHO and Jack Ruby to carry it out.    They must have been really hard up for assassins and hit men in those days.

"Who can we get to pull this off?"

"Obviously we get the weirdo nutter who just failed in his attempt to assassinate a Texas Gubernatorial candidate.   He's as reliable as they come.    And to cover that up we'll murder him with the the 3rd rate gangster wannabe, who the mafia made fun of and kept at a distance for being a blabbermouth .... he's the perfect guy to keep our secrets."


unless he was the patsy & others were the actual / additional shooters
then it's not that amazing at all

protip: if you are going to attempt to poke fun & shoot holes in these conspiracy theories, at least try to think it through.
 
2013-11-22 05:45:47 PM  
Great read if you want a conspiracy!
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-11-22 05:51:17 PM  

Resident Muslim: Theoretical question:
If, IF, it was an inside job...who has the authority to sanction this?

Isn't the president supposed to be the top of the pyramid?


You are so cute! :)
 
2013-11-22 05:54:23 PM  
I had never fired anything more than a BB gun until I went to basic training in '69.  By the time I graduated I was hitting 300 yard shots regularly, 100 yards shots were easy. A lot of guys in my company did the same. I have stood in  "Oswalds Window".  Short distance, clear sight line, slow moving target.   Easy shots!
 
2013-11-22 05:55:35 PM  

mbillips: Magnanimous_J: mbillips:

....
3. Being in the "precise time and place" happened because THAT'S WHERE OSWALD WAS when Kennedy drove by in an open car. With a newspaper announcement days in advance, and Oswald already busily trying to become an assassin (Edwin Walker survived only because a window muntin deflected the shot). If Oswald hadn't worked at the book depository, he probably would have set up a sniper's nest somewhere else along the route.

  never even thought of it.

Pure happenstance put him in an ideal spot to play sniper, but it's unlikely he would've had the balls to try to get to a feasible shooting spot otherwise. For instance if he didn't already work at the depository, what are the chances that he could get access to the building in the days beforehand to scout around for a shooting spot, and then get in again on the day of the motorcade with his rifle?
 
2013-11-22 06:13:19 PM  

Princess Ryans Knickers: If someone were to do the same to Obama, he'd be worshipped like Saint Reagan.



No kidding. He's already done more good for the country than Reagan ever did. If someone offed Obama, he'd probably replace Washington on the quarter.

Other than Clinton, who was one of the best ever, I'd have to say that Obama has probably been the best president since Kennedy.

At least that is this Mormon's opinion.
 
2013-11-22 06:21:47 PM  

ISO15693: Other than Clinton, who was one of the best ever, I'd have to say that Obama has probably been the best president since Kennedy.


ohwaityoureserious.jpg
 
2013-11-22 06:26:18 PM  

ISO15693: Other than Clinton, who was one of the best ever, I'd have to say that Obama has probably been the blackest president since Kennedy.


Fixed?
 
2013-11-22 06:30:53 PM  

inner ted: InmanRoshi: Pretty amazing that if the mafia/CIA/LBJ/Cuba/Aliens wanted to accomplish the most high profile murder in modern history they would pick two flaky, neurotic halfwits like LHO and Jack Ruby to carry it out.    They must have been really hard up for assassins and hit men in those days.

"Who can we get to pull this off?"

"Obviously we get the weirdo nutter who just failed in his attempt to assassinate a Texas Gubernatorial candidate.   He's as reliable as they come.    And to cover that up we'll murder him with the the 3rd rate gangster wannabe, who the mafia made fun of and kept at a distance for being a blabbermouth .... he's the perfect guy to keep our secrets."

unless he was the patsy & others were the actual / additional shooters
then it's not that amazing at all

protip: if you are going to attempt to poke fun & shoot holes in these conspiracy theories, at least try to think it through.


Actually, his theories sound more feasible than yours. Yours require leaps in logic (other/additional shooters whom we've never heard of).
Maybe you need to take your own advice. Simple explanations are more often true than those than require leaps of faith.
 
2013-11-22 06:42:01 PM  

ISO15693: Princess Ryans Knickers: If someone were to do the same to Obama, he'd be worshipped like Saint Reagan.


No kidding. He's already done more good for the country than Reagan ever did. If someone offed Obama, he'd probably replace Washington on the quarter.

Other than Clinton, who was one of the best ever, I'd have to say that Obama has probably been the best president since Kennedy.

At least that is this Mormon's opinion.


What? While Clinton was a good president, Kennedy was a shiatty president.

He got us into Vietnam. He refused to help civil rights because it would hurt his re-election chances. He almost got everyone killed in the Cuban Missile Crisis (we had missiles in Turkey pointed at the USSR; they had a right to be pissed and put them in Cuba). He just gets eulogies of bliss because he was attractive, a Kennedy and assassinated. But in reality, he was a really shiatty president.
 
2013-11-22 06:43:47 PM  
DarkViking mmmmm...Lacey

Cindy Morgan's great, she told me Ted Knight thought it was hilarious this family of WASP Paragons troubled by a coarse Polish noveau riche fellow were played by "a couple of Polacks"
 
2013-11-22 07:24:41 PM  
Okay, so I finally got around to reading this article.
Good grief are those 18 questions lame, and most if not all can be answered, (And some have been by other posts here)


14) As noted, Oswald was portrayed by the Warren Commission as being a low-achievement loner and a very ordinary person. Yet, throughout his life, Oswald was surrounded by high-achievement, extraordinary people: David Ferrie, Priscilla Johnson McMillan, George de Mohrenschildt, Ruth Hyde Paine and Michael Paine, to list a few. How can one reconcile the Warren Commission's profile of Oswald with the relationships Oswald had with these accomplished individuals during his adult life?

****Not to disparage the people mentioned in that question but I would not characterize any as high-achievement or extraordinary.
David Ferrie was a former airline pilot with a shady past and glued on hair and eyebrows. He was doing his own research for a cure for cancer - in his apartment.
McMillan was a reporter living in Moscow who did a single interview with Oswald following his defection.
George de Mohrenschildt was part of the Russian emigre community in Dallas who had several failed businesses. And, no, he was not with the CIA.
The Paines were a typical lower middle class couple - Michael worked for Bell Helicopters, Ruth, the pacifist Quaker, was a housewife who befriended Marina Oswald to help improve her (Ruth's) Russian speaking skills.
 
2013-11-22 11:18:40 PM  
Last week, I was watching the two-part documentary that has no commentary on YT - simply film clips/voice recordings assembled in time order with blackouts with the time frames - presented as they were in 1963. I can't find it now with all the 50th anniversary stuff in the way. In any case it was really good to see it all in the context of that time - the opinions, the actions, and the effects as if I were sitting on the floor in my parents' house that day (I was born 9 years after the fact) - condensed, obviously, but laid out in order. It helped me understand the bigger picture that day.

One thing that amazed me was the complete lack of crime scene control and crowd control that today we take completely for granted. The place was a zoo! I'm amazed that they got any evidence worth a damn at all, considering the complete chaos. The DPD looked like bumbling fools compared to today's professional expectations, and the media was just all. over. the. place... stomping and pushing over one another higgledy-piggledy.

Another was the rapidity with which everything was handled. JFK shot at 12:30, then taken to Parkland; the priests going in, the announcement of death, LBJ inaugurated, and JFK's body on a plane to Bethesda by 2:30pm, with no autopsy in Texas. That's a lot of movin' and shakin' in an hour and a half.

A lot of weird and fishy stuff went on that day, and while I buy off on the Oswald lone-shooter stance, I doubt he was smart enough to figure it out all by himself, and I'm not so sure the idea to kill Oswald wasn't planted into Ruby's head. Was there an all-out conspiracy? I don't think so, but again, weird stuff happened as this all came to pass and after. There's good reason why it's still excellent fodder for conspiracy theories.

//the Kennedy children paid for the sins of the father, in spades, I think
/with the power comes powerful enemies
//it's a wonder Jackie wasn't committed to the loonybin after this - she showed amazing composure
 
2013-11-22 11:21:44 PM  

mbillips: The actual fact of Kennedy's assassination is that a disgruntled loser shot him because he wanted to be a big shot (in Cuba or the Soviet Union). Oswald had delusions of grandeur, like most presidential assassins, but he was otherwise a completely unimportant person. There is a mountain of ev ...


You would imagine then that Oswald would have crowed about his achievement...instead of claiming he was a "patsy".
 
2013-11-22 11:29:38 PM  

cryptozoophiliac: mbillips: The actual fact of Kennedy's assassination is that a disgruntled loser shot him because he wanted to be a big shot (in Cuba or the Soviet Union). Oswald had delusions of grandeur, like most presidential assassins, but he was otherwise a completely unimportant person. There is a mountain of ev ...

You would imagine then that Oswald would have crowed about his achievement...instead of claiming he was a "patsy".


He was a patsy.
 
2013-11-23 05:08:06 AM  
Oswald was an extreme lefty who killed someone because of his extreme lefty views.  It's disturbingly common for the perpetrator of terrorism in this country to be a lefty.  From Ayers to Kimberlin to Joe Stack to Jared Loughner to the Southern Poverty fanboy shooter to Lee Harvey Oswald.

One day it will be accepted, but until then, I don't see it getting any better.  Even Osama Bin Laden was a fan of social justice nonsense.
 
2013-11-23 10:37:03 AM  
 
2013-11-23 11:09:55 AM  
This...

The President is a media personality selected by the real rulers. They make it look like there's an election and that Americans pick their leaders, but the truth is that the President is chosen for his ability to perform and distract. He's one part actor, one part monkey's paw, and one part scapegoat.

The real rulers are the plutocrats and robber barons. They've always been in charge. They've always made the rules. They've always let you believe you have a choice when it comes to who leads you.

You don't.

Kennedy was a monkey's paw that had outlived his usefulness, and so he was dramatically and very publicly killed. It sent a message, fixed whatever problem they needed to fix, and opened them up to having a guy in there who was more willing to play his role and dance to their tune.

That is why corporations are able to contribute to the buying of the office of president.
 
2013-11-23 12:54:00 PM  

bullsballs: This...

The President is a media personality selected by the real rulers. They make it look like there's an election and that Americans pick their leaders, but the truth is that the President is chosen for his ability to perform and distract. He's one part actor, one part monkey's paw, and one part scapegoat.

The real rulers are the plutocrats and robber barons. They've always been in charge. They've always made the rules. They've always let you believe you have a choice when it comes to who leads you.

You don't.

Kennedy was a monkey's paw that had outlived his usefulness, and so he was dramatically and very publicly killed. It sent a message, fixed whatever problem they needed to fix, and opened them up to having a guy in there who was more willing to play his role and dance to their tune.

That is why corporations are able to contribute to the buying of the office of president.


Cat's paw, not monkey's paw.

Then again, that's the authentic sort of gibberish I expect.
 
2013-11-23 01:15:46 PM  

Fano: Cat's paw, not monkey's paw.


Cat, monkey, what's the difference? They're all canines. :)
 
2013-11-23 03:46:48 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Fano: Cat's paw, not monkey's paw.

Cat, monkey, what's the difference? They're all canines. :)


Maybe JFK was a monkey's paw, because wishing on his dead body turned everything for the Kennedys after that into horrible shiat.
 
2013-11-23 05:26:33 PM  
Here in Dallas.....we have many MANY hours of television footage of multiple witnesses who claim witnessing shooter(s) behind the fence at the top of the knoll.

There were many rail-workers on the bridge behind the knoll.

There were folks at the bottom of the hill.

There were folks on the other side.

All have claimed shots fired from the fence at the top of the knoll.

They were there. they saw/heard. Years and years before "conspiracy" theories etc....
 
2013-11-23 06:00:57 PM  

Fano: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Fano: Cat's paw, not monkey's paw.

Cat, monkey, what's the difference? They're all canines. :)

Maybe JFK was a monkey's paw, because wishing on his dead body turned everything for the Kennedys after that into horrible shiat.


Or maybe Kennedy was a monkey fist, used for throwing belaying lines to shore. He was in the Navy, you know. I think he served under Captain Binghamton.

Here's an image of Kennedy, Binghamton, and Ensign Dorf, who was a Klingon:

ersjdamoo.files.wordpress.com
 
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