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(Daily Mail)   Scientist who has come to believe in reincarnation seeks to convince others. Subby tried that in a former life but nobody listened   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 85
    More: Strange, Bobby Jones, Hollywood, reincarnation, consciousness, Golf Channel, special agents  
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4232 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Nov 2013 at 6:17 PM (21 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-20 06:18:27 PM
I submitted this in a former life with a better headline.
 
2013-11-20 06:20:36 PM
And my kid believed a squirrel was a god for a while.

It was cute, but in the end, he decided the squirrel was indeed not a god.

I didn't indulge his fantasy though and say "Wow, that squirrel really is God!"

//How many parents indulged the fantasy with their kids?
 
2013-11-20 06:21:02 PM
I believe reincarnation is possible, but I've no reason to believe I've been anyone famous or incredible. Probably just a farmer, if anything.
 
2013-11-20 06:21:46 PM
Subby sounds lost. Better check your cloud atlas.
 
2013-11-20 06:25:12 PM
Strange how so many of these kids were famous in past lives. It's statistically unlikely.

No... not unlikely... that other thing... bullshiat.
 
2013-11-20 06:29:17 PM
I think I was a very prolific candlestick polisher in my previous life.
 
2013-11-20 06:30:18 PM
FTFA: Bases the science for his theories in advanced quantum physics,

...aaand we're done here.

What we have here is a medical doctor with a pop science misunderstanding of QM, i.e. "observing things makes reality" (no it doesn't), "therefore consciousness exists independent of the brain" (non sequitur), "therefore reincarnation!".

And, of course, he has a book to shill.
 
2013-11-20 06:30:40 PM
Hmmm, I wonder if he has a book to promote/ sell?

i.dailymail.co.uk

Oh, look, here it is.


/used to be a high priestess to Cleopatra
 
2013-11-20 06:31:01 PM
How do the reincarnation folks account for the huge increase in the world's population since their religions were started? Are gorilla or orang-utan souls being called up from the minor leagues as their own populations are pushed toward extinction? Does the universe just copy/paste the popular templates so that we have hundreds of different Alexanders the Great walking around today?
 
2013-11-20 06:31:18 PM
neweaver:
Strange how so many of these kids were famous in past lives. It's statistically unlikely.

No... not unlikely... that other thing... bullshiat.


I agree. You seldom hear about them being ordinary unknowns.
 
2013-11-20 06:32:24 PM

netweavr: Strange how so many of these kids were famous in past lives. It's statistically unlikely.

No... not unlikely... that other thing... bullshiat.


Playing devil's advocate (very much so; I don't believe in reincarnation unless there's a steady paycheck in it):

What if plenty of people are both reincarnated and can, for some period of time, remember their previous incarnation? It would stand to reason that the cases most easily recognized would be those where the previous incarnation was different from the current one. Nobody's going to bat an eye if a kid says "and then I went into my house, which looks like most houses, and did normal people stuff, like most people" - but people might notice if their kid says "and then I led thousands of my fellow citizens on a march to get salt!"

This argument could also be extended by saying that famous people have more easily verifiable details than others, so if you're writing a book where you want to include verified stuff, you pick the stuff that's easier to verify.
 
2013-11-20 06:33:10 PM
Alternate headline: Scientist successfully synthesizes LSD in his basement.
 
2013-11-20 06:36:27 PM

Ivo Shandor: How do the reincarnation folks account for the huge increase in the world's population since their religions were started? Are gorilla or orang-utan souls being called up from the minor leagues as their own populations are pushed toward extinction? Does the universe just copy/paste the popular templates so that we have hundreds of different Alexanders the Great walking around today?


My theory is that there are only as many souls today as there were when humans first became fully modern -- let's be generous and say three million, the approximate human population pre-agriculture. The other seven billion or so bodies on Earth are something between automatons and high-functioning animals.

Some people say that this theory is profoundly cynical, but I think it explains a lot about humanity.
 
2013-11-20 06:38:47 PM

Ivo Shandor: How do the reincarnation folks account for the huge increase in the world's population since their religions were started? Are gorilla or orang-utan souls being called up from the minor leagues as their own populations are pushed toward extinction? Does the universe just copy/paste the popular templates so that we have hundreds of different Alexanders the Great walking around today?


The increase of the world's population is just reflective of the addition of new servers to the farm. When things first started up, you got maybe a few thousand simultaneous players, but with consistent upgrades, we're up to around 7 billion simultaneous players (though at any given time some of those aren't actually connected).
 
2013-11-20 06:39:04 PM
You don't remember, but you were all clams once. With clam thetans.
 
2013-11-20 06:41:07 PM
Luke, I was your father!
 
2013-11-20 06:41:27 PM

czetie: Ivo Shandor: How do the reincarnation folks account for the huge increase in the world's population since their religions were started? Are gorilla or orang-utan souls being called up from the minor leagues as their own populations are pushed toward extinction? Does the universe just copy/paste the popular templates so that we have hundreds of different Alexanders the Great walking around today?

My theory is that there are only as many souls today as there were when humans first became fully modern -- let's be generous and say three million, the approximate human population pre-agriculture. The other seven billion or so bodies on Earth are something between automatons and high-functioning animals.

Some people say that this theory is profoundly cynical, but I think it explains a lot about humanity.


There are plenty of no-souls. You can spot them driving 65 in the fast lane or arguing over on the politics tab.
 
2013-11-20 06:43:17 PM
How does this guy explain Riverworld, then, huh?
 
2013-11-20 06:43:59 PM
Here's his wikipedia page, for anyone interested.

Jim B. Tucker
 
2013-11-20 06:44:28 PM
I wish there was an afterlife.  I can understand why the religious folks want to cling so tightly to their superstitions.  It's comforting to think there is something after we die.  That said, all the hope and will in the world can not make an impossibility into a reality.

So I am left with only a world where I can wish something was true.  Something like reincarnation or Viking heaven.  Christian heaven not so much though, that sounds boring as hell.
 
2013-11-20 06:44:55 PM

Ivo Shandor: How do the reincarnation folks account for the huge increase in the world's population since their religions were started? Are gorilla or orang-utan souls being called up from the minor leagues as their own populations are pushed toward extinction? Does the universe just copy/paste the popular templates so that we have hundreds of different Alexanders the Great walking around today?


What little I know about it is that some think since some natural animal populations have dwindled due to human encroachment, land usage, pollution, etc, that is where the extra souls have come from.

TLDR:Not as many people are being reincarnated as worms.
 
2013-11-20 06:46:16 PM

Lord Dimwit: netweavr: Strange how so many of these kids were famous in past lives. It's statistically unlikely.

No... not unlikely... that other thing... bullshiat.

Playing devil's advocate (very much so; I don't believe in reincarnation unless there's a steady paycheck in it):

What if plenty of people are both reincarnated and can, for some period of time, remember their previous incarnation? It would stand to reason that the cases most easily recognized would be those where the previous incarnation was different from the current one. Nobody's going to bat an eye if a kid says "and then I went into my house, which looks like most houses, and did normal people stuff, like most people" - but people might notice if their kid says "and then I led thousands of my fellow citizens on a march to get salt!"

This argument could also be extended by saying that famous people have more easily verifiable details than others, so if you're writing a book where you want to include verified stuff, you pick the stuff that's easier to verify.


If you want to play that devil's advocate via selection bias, then I'd point out that America still has a bullshiat quantity of "famous" reincarnations. You're going to run into the same problem religion does with plurality. There simply are too many people he's claiming to find in the US. Unless the Reincarnation Laws favor Americans.
 
2013-11-20 06:47:47 PM
This is not a new area of study. Another psychiatrist documented thousands of these sorts of cases all around the world: Ian Stevenson, M.D.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Stevenson

His books are made up almost entirely of child case studies, where he attempts to "confirm" the cases by cross referencing what the children recollected to actual individuals, places, and events. He discounted the work of others in the field who focused on past life regression therapy. He reasoned that children were less likely to have the opportunity to subconsciously absorb information about others' lives, or to develop the knowledge necessary to fabricate an internally consistent, past life story.

Contrary to the popular conception, nearly all the cases involved children describing relatively nondescript, mundane lives. It is about as rare as you would expect it to be, given the proportion of famous individuals to regular folk.

I don't know offhand what his theories were to explain how reincarnation could exist, given the relative size of the human population now as compared to the past. Not sure that it matters because it would just be speculation anyway.
 
2013-11-20 06:48:32 PM

Ivo Shandor: How do the reincarnation folks account for the huge increase in the world's population since their religions were started? Are gorilla or orang-utan souls being called up from the minor leagues as their own populations are pushed toward extinction? Does the universe just copy/paste the popular templates so that we have hundreds of different Alexanders the Great walking around today?


The answer is, of course, time travel. Souls can be incarnated at any time. You can die and come back in ancient Rome or on the first Marsian colony. A soul can go back in time a few decades and be incarnated at the same time as a previous incarnation.
 
2013-11-20 06:49:40 PM
*Martian
 
2013-11-20 06:51:33 PM

Xythero: Ivo Shandor: How do the reincarnation folks account for the huge increase in the world's population since their religions were started? Are gorilla or orang-utan souls being called up from the minor leagues as their own populations are pushed toward extinction? Does the universe just copy/paste the popular templates so that we have hundreds of different Alexanders the Great walking around today?

The answer is, of course, time travel. Souls can be incarnated at any time. You can die and come back in ancient Rome or on the first Marsian colony. A soul can go back in time a few decades and be incarnated at the same time as a previous incarnation.


Yes. Where ever they need to go to progress their souls.
 
2013-11-20 06:53:00 PM
How come everyone was a pilot or a soldier or a prince or king? How come Noone was ever a turnip farmer or something?
 
2013-11-20 06:53:18 PM
Do mono-zygotic twins get one consciousness or two?
 
2013-11-20 06:53:19 PM
Bummer Dude...this is my first carnation. Looks like I'll be returning, time and time again, as a Farker.


/hope it's not alphabetically.
 
2013-11-20 06:54:13 PM
Something I really hope might be true, but I logically doubt is.
 
2013-11-20 06:54:29 PM

big pig peaches: How come everyone was a pilot or a soldier or a prince or king? How come Noone was ever a turnip farmer or something?


Egos.
 
2013-11-20 06:54:49 PM
In a previous life I was Batman.
 
2013-11-20 07:00:02 PM

netweavr: In a previous life I was Batman.


Batman is dead?!?
 
2013-11-20 07:02:29 PM

Friedah: I don't know offhand what his theories were to explain how reincarnation could exist, given the relative size of the human population now as compared to the past. Not sure that it matters because it would just be speculation anyway.


If reincarnation did exist you really couldn't look life on earth as an isolated thing or the population size. You're talking about trillions of planets with potentially millions of them supporting life. So you could be reincarnated as a plorborini on the planet Razon 5 in the Andromeda galaxy.
 
2013-11-20 07:08:11 PM

Ivo Shandor: How do the reincarnation folks account for the huge increase in the world's population since their religions were started? Are gorilla or orang-utan souls being called up from the minor leagues as their own populations are pushed toward extinction? Does the universe just copy/paste the popular templates so that we have hundreds of different Alexanders the Great walking around today?


There is a finite amount of soul.

As it is continally being subdivided across living humanity, each generation has less soul than the one before it and thus increased spellin errors and depravity over time and decreased good music and redheads are the ultimate expressions of this.
 
2013-11-20 07:09:29 PM
In Buddhism, the belief is that our consciousness/ego/soul/self/essence is not actually a thing, but a product of a variety of specific conditions and ingredients coming together. 

It is akin to saying that a cake is not a cake, but a combination of sugar and flour and chocolate and the application of heat. 

So the concept of reincarnation is explained as our ingredients being shifted around. Your past life was not really your past life, but it sort of was. And your future lives aren't actually your future lives. You are just one specific configuration of elements at this point in time. They will break apart and be something else later.
 
2013-11-20 07:14:43 PM

big pig peaches: How come everyone was a pilot or a soldier or a prince or king? How come Noone was ever a turnip farmer or something?


parsec-santa.com

I thought Noone was actually  a Hermit?
 
2013-11-20 07:16:48 PM
Rimmer - "She told me that in a previous life I was Alexander the Great's chief eunuch....It explains so much."
Lister - "Like why you have such a lovely soprano singing voice.
 
2013-11-20 07:17:19 PM

Some Coke Drinking Guy: I wish there was an afterlife.  I can understand why the religious folks want to cling so tightly to their superstitions.  It's comforting to think there is something after we die.  That said, all the hope and will in the world can not make an impossibility into a reality.

So I am left with only a world where I can wish something was true.  Something like reincarnation or Viking heaven.  Christian heaven not so much though, that sounds boring as hell.


Not religious----its a "between-life" ---not "heaven" or "hell"---we re-incarnate. Eventually, you "step off the wheel" of reincarnation and go "home"---at that point you "are" god and realize you never left.
Contemporary descriptions of the between-life all agree with me.  Only certain people get to speak from the other side.
 
2013-11-20 07:18:31 PM
Well if this thread is going to be derailed into an occult back and forth *cracks knuckles*

Theories of reincarnation include the ideas following:

Option 1: Souls are manufactured. Whoever does it is irrelevant for our purposes regarding the question "where do they come from" (God, well of souls, soul crafters, byproduct of human consciousness). Just because some are recycled doesn't mean more aren't continually created. These groups, like the Gnostics, hold to "soul crash" theories, basically spiritual versions of the big crunch, the last of which was some 120,000 years ago (so I understand, aren't many Gnostics to compare notes to for a sample size)

Option 2: Some people have souls, some don't. Takes many forms. Usually in that your "first" life must earn its soul in some manner. This would then apply going all the way back, since Human population growth is basically the same as it has been for all of history (doubling every few decades, barring the occasional plague)  Similar, but related, is that souls don't stick around when their vessels aren't using them.  Or, the "Kardashian Theory". Souls get the hell out of dodge when the going is good if the "spiritual characteristics" (art, creativity, critical thinking) aren't being utilized.  This is the most optimistic theory, because if there were souls tied to specific bodies until they die, being trapped in, say, that one kid born without a brain, only the brain stem, kept alive by machines in the modern era would be an uncommon brand of hell that seems like it would permanently derange you...

Option 3: As someone previously mentioned, souls aren't a human-exclusive. You may have been a deer, a demigod, or Vulcan. Hindi is the most famous proponent of this kind of idea, where bad karma can net you the body of a roach. This gets into the neopagan ideas of otherkin, souls dragged into human bodies from things like demons, fairies, and common animals (most common seeming to be cats, foxes, and wolves these days...)

Or, be lazy, grab bag of all of the above.

/Why yes I do find it a fun hobby.
 
2013-11-20 07:20:29 PM
I love that the people who would consider themselves to be very pro-science are the first people to throw out a theory because it sounds ridiculous based on their worldview.

There are plenty of cultures and religions in the world that believe in reincarnation. Wouldn't it be good science to study it, posit and test hypotheses?

Is discrediting a theory because it sounds silly really science?

Because, seriously...The Earth looks pretty darn flat to me, you crazy people with your wild "round Earth" theory.
 
2013-11-20 07:27:05 PM

lycanth: neweaver:
Strange how so many of these kids were famous in past lives. It's statistically unlikely.

No... not unlikely... that other thing... bullshiat.

I agree. You seldom hear about them being ordinary unknowns.


Honestly bobby jones was the only one of those people I'd heard of. Not exactly ordinary bit not hoisehold names either
 
2013-11-20 07:35:42 PM

lostcat: I love that the people who would consider themselves to be very pro-science are the first people to throw out a theory because it sounds ridiculous based on their worldview.

There are plenty of cultures and religions in the world that believe in reincarnation. Wouldn't it be good science to study it, posit and test hypotheses?


Well, here's the thing. In order to study it, you would first need to define what "it" is. And if your theory is that a single consciousness (or soul, or whatever you want to label it) can inhabit successive bodies and lead many lives, first you need to posit what a consciousness is. You know, so that we can tell if we are talking about the same consciousness from body to body. And since neither you nor anybody else has a rigorous working theory of what a consciousness is, that's a bit of a blocker.

But let's set that aside for a moment. The other thing we would need in order to study reincarnation is some examples of it. If we had some verified examples of people who demonstrably led previous lives, we could ask scientific questions such as: does everybody have multiple lives, but only some remember? Can the memories of others be recovered? Are there specific circumstances that reliably lead to reincarnation? Unfortunately, we don't. For all of the talks and books and true believers, we don't have one single substantiated case of reincarnation.

So that's the problem. You can believe as much as you want, but without a theory of what reincarnation is that would generate testable hypotheses, plus some subjects on which to test those hypotheses, reincarnation is, it's impossible to study -- and that's why scientists don't pay attention to it. It is, to quote the great Wolfgang Pauli, not even wrong.


Of course, lots of cultures do believe in reincarnation (in lots of mutually incompatible ways, incidentally), and that in itself is an interesting fact worthy of study.
 
2013-11-20 07:36:43 PM

lostcat: I love that the people who would consider themselves to be very pro-science are the first people to throw out a theory because it sounds ridiculous based on their worldview.

There are plenty of cultures and religions in the world that believe in reincarnation. Wouldn't it be good science to study it, posit and test hypotheses?

Is discrediting a theory because it sounds silly really science?

Because, seriously...The Earth looks pretty darn flat to me, you crazy people with your wild "round Earth" theory.


Propose a testable hypothesis first.
 
2013-11-20 07:44:35 PM

meat0918: And my kid believed a squirrel was a god for a while.

It was cute, but in the end, he decided the squirrel was indeed not a god.

I didn't indulge his fantasy though and say "Wow, that squirrel really is God!"

//How many parents indulged the fantasy with their kids?


When I was about 8 I was convinced my real parents (the aliens) were going to come back and get me (in their flying saucer) . Thankfully I was bright enough not to tell anyone this.
 
2013-11-20 07:44:35 PM

Igor Jakovsky: lycanth: neweaver:
Strange how so many of these kids were famous in past lives. It's statistically unlikely.

No... not unlikely... that other thing... bullshiat.

I agree. You seldom hear about them being ordinary unknowns.

Honestly bobby jones was the only one of those people I'd heard of. Not exactly ordinary bit not hoisehold names either


ocio.diarioinformacion.com

"Bubba Gump Shrimp. It's a hoisehold name."
 
2013-11-20 07:45:45 PM
My mom swears I used to pronounce the "p" in pneumonia when I was little. I guess she used to tell me stories about how I almost died of pneumonia when I was born. Thanks mom, sweet dreams to you too.
 
2013-11-20 07:51:16 PM

czetie: lostcat: I love that the people who would consider themselves to be very pro-science are the first people to throw out a theory because it sounds ridiculous based on their worldview.

There are plenty of cultures and religions in the world that believe in reincarnation. Wouldn't it be good science to study it, posit and test hypotheses?

Well, here's the thing. In order to study it, you would first need to define what "it" is. And if your theory is that a single consciousness (or soul, or whatever you want to label it) can inhabit successive bodies and lead many lives, first you need to posit what a consciousness is. You know, so that we can tell if we are talking about the same consciousness from body to body. And since neither you nor anybody else has a rigorous working theory of what a consciousness is, that's a bit of a blocker.

But let's set that aside for a moment. The other thing we would need in order to study reincarnation is some examples of it. If we had some verified examples of people who demonstrably led previous lives, we could ask scientific questions such as: does everybody have multiple lives, but only some remember? Can the memories of others be recovered? Are there specific circumstances that reliably lead to reincarnation? Unfortunately, we don't. For all of the talks and books and true believers, we don't have one single substantiated case of reincarnation.

So that's the problem. You can believe as much as you want, but without a theory of what reincarnation is that would generate testable hypotheses, plus some subjects on which to test those hypotheses, reincarnation is, it's impossible to study -- and that's why scientists don't pay attention to it. It is, to quote the great Wolfgang Pauli, not even wrong.


Of course, lots of cultures do believe in reincarnation (in lots of mutually incompatible ways, incidentally), and that in itself is an interesting fact worthy of study.


Said much better than I could have.  My own opinion is that such beliefs arise out of a fear of death and the fact that the brain has great difficulty believing in its own eventual complete non-existence.
 
2013-11-20 07:54:05 PM
When I was little I used to shiat everywhere. Man, I am talking everywhere. Wipe it all over the place, play with it. Rub it on the cat. Draw with it. It was the bomb.

Aparently I was a crazy woman in my last life...
 
2013-11-20 07:57:45 PM
ReverendJimBobHammer:
When I was about 8 I was convinced my real parents (the aliens) were going to come back and get me (in their flying saucer) . Thankfully I was bright enough not to tell anyone this.

Similar story but when I was 5. I made my report to the mothership once a day. My imaginary friend was a mothership.
 
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