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(WBUR Boston)   Inner city schools and infrastructure would be better if cities didn't have to subsidize all the suburban and rural communities   (hereandnow.wbur.org) divider line 81
    More: Ironic, rural communities, u.s. gdp, mortgage interest deduction, infrastructure  
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1163 clicks; posted to Politics » on 20 Nov 2013 at 2:56 PM (20 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-20 02:59:07 PM
No shiat
 
2013-11-20 03:02:08 PM
And my phone bill would be cheaper if we didn't have to subsidize those rural phone lines. And don't get me started on gas taxes and all those roads that pass through the middle of nowhere.
 
2013-11-20 03:06:29 PM
I'm ok with subsidizing them, because the rural communities feed the farking cities.

Suburban ones will die off as gas continues to go up in price though, so I'm not to concerned with them.

Plus, eventually a city annexes quite a few of them and they're paying city taxes.
 
2013-11-20 03:06:32 PM
What a bunch of ass backward logic. Lots of people simply don't want to lived stacked and packed with tons of other people. They moved to the burbs to escape the stink, noise, and bustle. And the author didn't even mention race riots and white flight that led to a huge increase in suburban population.

And how are the burbs siphoning money from the inner city? shiat that goes on in the burbs is mostly funded through property taxes and sales taxes from houses and shops in the burbs.
 
2013-11-20 03:09:12 PM

jigger: What a bunch of ass backward logic. Lots of people simply don't want to lived stacked and packed with tons of other people. They moved to the burbs to escape the stink, noise, and bustle. And the author didn't even mention race riots and white flight that led to a huge increase in suburban population.

And how are the burbs siphoning money from the inner city? shiat that goes on in the burbs is mostly funded through property taxes and sales taxes from houses and shops in the burbs.


The burbs are a horrendous model of inefficiency. Do you really not understand how city services become more efficient and cheaper to deliver the higher the concentration of people is?

That said:

meat0918: I'm ok with subsidizing them, because the rural communities feed the farking cities.


Yeah, this.
 
2013-11-20 03:11:18 PM
Yeah, because it's totally Hunts Point, Bushwick and Brownsville that are subsidizing New York State's gigantic budget and not Wall Street.
 
2013-11-20 03:12:44 PM
Yeah? And then inner city people would starve to death because there'd be no food coming in.
 
2013-11-20 03:13:00 PM

jigger: What a bunch of ass backward logic. Lots of people simply don't want to lived stacked and packed with tons of other people. They moved to the burbs to escape the stink, noise, and bustle. And the author didn't even mention race riots and white flight that led to a huge increase in suburban population.

And how are the burbs siphoning money from the inner city? shiat that goes on in the burbs is mostly funded through property taxes and sales taxes from houses and shops in the burbs.


Most of the tax base is in the cities.  State income taxes get disbursed across the state.  The road links from the burbs to the city are paid for from state and county funds.

This is an argument that is as old as the city itself, and I state again, the answer to "Why do we have to subsidize the rural parts if we live in the city?" is "Because they farking feed you!".

//Since the burbs are a relatively new phenomenon, we'll see what happens.
 
2013-11-20 03:13:04 PM

UrukHaiGuyz: The burbs are a horrendous model of inefficiency.


So?


 Do you really not understand how city services become more efficient and cheaper to deliver the higher the concentration of people is?


Is efficiency the goal? Because I can think of many ways to house people that are more efficient than any modern city.
 
2013-11-20 03:13:14 PM

jigger: What a bunch of ass backward logic. Lots of people simply don't want to lived stacked and packed with tons of other people. They moved to the burbs to escape the stink, noise, and bustle. And the author didn't even mention race riots and white flight that led to a huge increase in suburban population.

And how are the burbs siphoning money from the inner city? shiat that goes on in the burbs is mostly funded through property taxes and sales taxes from houses and shops in the burbs.


I take it you didn't read the article? The statement is that though home mortgage deduction and government going into debt building roads for less money than they are taking in, in gas taxes, we as encouraging people to live in the suburbs. He's not saying we should force those people into the cities, just that the government shouldn't be prioritizing the suburbs.
 
2013-11-20 03:13:57 PM

meat0918: Most of the tax base is in the cities.  State income taxes get disbursed across the state.  The road links from the burbs to the city are paid for from state and county funds.


And the people that live in the burbs paid those taxes.

meat0918: This is an argument that is as old as the city itself, and I state again, the answer to "Why do we have to subsidize the rural parts if we live in the city?" is "Because they farking feed you!".

//Since the burbs are a relatively new phenomenon, we'll see what happens.


They're not that new.
 
2013-11-20 03:14:34 PM
Must not be talking about L.A. The San Fernando Valley has been trying since I was little (and before that I'm sure) to secede from L.A. proper. The good side? You know have a city of five million residents who taxes stay in the Valley. The down? Most social services are only accessible if you're in L.A. city (Burbank, Glendale I think, a few others have incorporated and are on their own now).

Like most things political, it's complicated. Trying to simplify it only hides the extended consequences of changes.

/and when the hell did we lose the concept of the interdependence of things? Or is that another casualty of 30 years of bashing education?
 
2013-11-20 03:14:44 PM
Look, I hated school, my kid hates school, and people who went to school created the internet.  This "school is good for you" idea needs to be challenged.  Oh sure, you can say we need scientist and engineers, but from my point of view what we really need are good quality gamers.  Seriously, how many of you have had to suffer through some really shiatty sessions just because you're stuck with a bunch of idiots who don't know wtf they're doing?  It's time we get some resources behind improving the quality of gamers that are available.  A few mandatory hours every day and I think you'd notice a difference in this country, not only at the educational level but it could possible affect something as intangible as civility.  Can you just imagine the polite mannerisms if everyone were a mmorpg-er?

ok.  Off of my soapbox.  I know, dare to dream, crazy guy.  Whatever.
 
2013-11-20 03:15:09 PM
*whose

I hate editing on the iPad.
 
2013-11-20 03:16:08 PM
Being where the food is actually grown has advantages.  Not to mention my wooded lot and beautiful scenery and neighborhood.  You go live in Baltimore, I'll be here.  Please continue to tell me how awesome it is though.
 
2013-11-20 03:16:25 PM

jigger: UrukHaiGuyz: The burbs are a horrendous model of inefficiency.

So?


So we should stop subsidizing them. It's a waste of money. If people want to live outside the city that badly, they will.
 
 Do you really not understand how city services become more efficient and cheaper to deliver the higher the concentration of people is?


Is efficiency the goal? Because I can think of many ways to house people that are more efficient than any modern city.


It's a worthwhile goal if you're a city planner or manager. Not the only one, but an important consideration.
 
2013-11-20 03:16:47 PM

MindStalker: I take it you didn't read the article? The statement is that though home mortgage deduction and government going into debt building roads for less money than they are taking in, in gas taxes, we as encouraging people to live in the suburbs. He's not saying we should force those people into the cities, just that the government shouldn't be prioritizing the suburbs.


I do agree that no, and I mean no, road funding should come from anything other than gas taxes until some other dominant fuel source is found.

And yeah, you shouldn't get a deduction just because you got a mortgage.
 
2013-11-20 03:17:28 PM

UrukHaiGuyz: The burbs are a horrendous model of inefficiency. Do you really not understand how city services become more efficient and cheaper to deliver the higher the concentration of people is?

That said:


Living in cities also have a negative psychological affects on people. No imagine if people were forced to lived in the cities against their wills. shiat would be going down. fark efficiency.
 
2013-11-20 03:18:02 PM

jigger: I do agree that no, and I mean no, road funding should come from anything other than gas taxes until some other dominant fuel source is found.


dammit, and tolls
 
2013-11-20 03:19:41 PM
I've come to have a more nuanced view of the suburbs over time.

There are different types of suburbs.  Some are just pure sprawl, with endless cul-de-sac developments (no sidewalks) and heavily-trafficked thoroughfares consisting mainly of big-box retail and chain restaurants (again no sidewalks).  Others are organized more like small towns, with a distinct and walkable town center containing independent shops and restaurants, and surrounded by a grid of residential streets with sidewalks.

I can't stand the former but rather like the latter.

The suburbs aren't ever going to go away, so it's worth thinking through what kind of suburbs we want to have.  Urban planning for the suburbs.  I'm all for walkable small-towns with a central district containing at least some locally-owned businesses.
 
2013-11-20 03:20:33 PM

Frank N Stein: UrukHaiGuyz: The burbs are a horrendous model of inefficiency. Do you really not understand how city services become more efficient and cheaper to deliver the higher the concentration of people is?

That said:

Living in cities also have a negative psychological affects on people. No imagine if people were forced to lived in the cities against their wills. shiat would be going down. fark efficiency.


Chill out, Francis, nobody is talking about forced relocation.
 
2013-11-20 03:22:18 PM
Clearly the solution is to force the poor out of cities and into the countryside. Then suburbanites can move back into the city, property values will rise and inner city schools will have more money to spend on education!
 
2013-11-20 03:23:04 PM
Grew up rural, live urban now.  Would never go suburban.  Only social leeches do that.
 
2013-11-20 03:23:10 PM

Frank N Stein: UrukHaiGuyz: The burbs are a horrendous model of inefficiency. Do you really not understand how city services become more efficient and cheaper to deliver the higher the concentration of people is?

That said:

Living in cities also have a negative psychological affects on people. No imagine if people were forced to lived in the cities against their wills. shiat would be going down. fark efficiency.


What negative psychological effects?
 
2013-11-20 03:24:02 PM

James!: Frank N Stein: UrukHaiGuyz: The burbs are a horrendous model of inefficiency. Do you really not understand how city services become more efficient and cheaper to deliver the higher the concentration of people is?

That said:

Living in cities also have a negative psychological affects on people. No imagine if people were forced to lived in the cities against their wills. shiat would be going down. fark efficiency.

What negative psychological effects?


You know, those. no imagine it for yourself
 
2013-11-20 03:24:04 PM

To The Escape Zeppelin!: Clearly the solution is to force the poor out of cities and into the countryside. Then suburbanites can move back into the city, property values will rise and inner city schools will have more money to spend on education!


That's called gentrification and I've heard it's pretty bad.
 
2013-11-20 03:26:55 PM

UrukHaiGuyz: Frank N Stein: UrukHaiGuyz: The burbs are a horrendous model of inefficiency. Do you really not understand how city services become more efficient and cheaper to deliver the higher the concentration of people is?

That said:

Living in cities also have a negative psychological affects on people. No imagine if people were forced to lived in the cities against their wills. shiat would be going down. fark efficiency.

Chill out, Francis, nobody is talking about forced relocation.


I know. I just get tired of hearing people trot out "efficiency" as if that's the only aspect important in relation to dwellings, communities etc. Humans behavior is not a math equation that can be tweaked to squeeze a few more MPGs out of. Hell, there have been great failures in city planning because the end line goal was efficiency. Pruitt Igoe comes to mind in that regard.
 
2013-11-20 03:28:37 PM
Interesting TED Talk on walkable cities. Portland, Oregon gets a lot of love. Also filled with lots of stats and numbers on cities in general, if you're into that sort of thing.

Link
 
2013-11-20 03:28:53 PM

James!: Frank N Stein: UrukHaiGuyz: The burbs are a horrendous model of inefficiency. Do you really not understand how city services become more efficient and cheaper to deliver the higher the concentration of people is?

That said:

Living in cities also have a negative psychological affects on people. No imagine if people were forced to lived in the cities against their wills. shiat would be going down. fark efficiency.

What negative psychological effects?


UrukHaiGuyz: James!: Frank N Stein: UrukHaiGuyz: The burbs are a horrendous model of inefficiency. Do you really not understand how city services become more efficient and cheaper to deliver the higher the concentration of people is?

That said:

Living in cities also have a negative psychological affects on people. No imagine if people were forced to lived in the cities against their wills. shiat would be going down. fark efficiency.

What negative psychological effects?

You know, those. no imagine it for yourself


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=psychological+effects+of+city+life
 
2013-11-20 03:29:07 PM
So Tater Jr is stealing funds from Tavaquone Jr.
 
2013-11-20 03:29:21 PM

UrukHaiGuyz: Frank N Stein: UrukHaiGuyz: The burbs are a horrendous model of inefficiency. Do you really not understand how city services become more efficient and cheaper to deliver the higher the concentration of people is?

That said:

Living in cities also have a negative psychological affects on people. No imagine if people were forced to lived in the cities against their wills. shiat would be going down. fark efficiency.

Chill out, Francis, nobody is talking about forced relocation.


Didn't you hear?  Obama is the Bizarro Pol Pot.

/guessing half this thread has no clue what i'm talking about
 
2013-11-20 03:29:31 PM

jigger: To The Escape Zeppelin!: Clearly the solution is to force the poor out of cities and into the countryside. Then suburbanites can move back into the city, property values will rise and inner city schools will have more money to spend on education!

That's called gentrification and I've heard it's pretty bad.


You hear that, but it's not entirely true.  Displacement hurts, but poor people are going to have a tough time of it anywhere, and increasing property values due to more economic stability boosts incomes in the area.

Like all economic changes, somebody tends to lose, but more people win than lose net.
 
2013-11-20 03:30:20 PM

Frank N Stein: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=psychological+effects+of+city+life


So you have nothing.
 
2013-11-20 03:31:35 PM
Wait, the cities support the suburbs and rural areas? Maybe out in fly over country, but here in New Jersey the suburbs and rural areas support the cities. Look up how this state does school funding, money gets confiscated from hard working New Jersey families and it is than transferred to areas like Newark, Camden, Trenton, Asbury Park to pay for schools and infrastructure.  Some of these districts spend upwards of $40K per students and still have 50% dropout rates and the ones who still somehow manage to graduate can't even read.

So the next time you mouth breathers in fly-over country make blanket idiotic derpy derp statements on how the suburbs and the rural areas are supported by the cities, realize not everyone lives in your crappy state.
 
2013-11-20 03:32:42 PM

James!: Frank N Stein: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=psychological+effects+of+city+life

So you have nothing.


Fine ignore those articles if you'd like. Whatever.
 
2013-11-20 03:32:56 PM
I will stick with my 5k township thank you very much.  Top of the line schools, no crime, a great community, I can see the horizon all around me except for where it is blocked by dense pickets of trees and a lower cost of living than any city.  What more do you need?
 
2013-11-20 03:33:29 PM

dantheman195: Wait, the cities support the suburbs and rural areas? Maybe out in fly over country, but here in New Jersey the suburbs and rural areas support the cities. Look up how this state does school funding, money gets confiscated from hard working New Jersey families and it is than transferred to areas like Newark, Camden, Trenton, Asbury Park to pay for schools and infrastructure.  Some of these districts spend upwards of $40K per students and still have 50% dropout rates and the ones who still somehow manage to graduate can't even read.

So the next time you mouth breathers in fly-over country make blanket idiotic derpy derp statements on how the suburbs and the rural areas are supported by the cities, realize not everyone lives in your crappy state.


A lot of numbers in your post, and none that demonstrate your point.
 
2013-11-20 03:33:36 PM

dantheman195: Wait, the cities support the suburbs and rural areas? Maybe out in fly over country, but here in New Jersey the suburbs and rural areas support the cities. Look up how this state does school funding, money gets confiscated from hard working New Jersey families and it is than transferred to areas like Newark, Camden, Trenton, Asbury Park to pay for schools and infrastructure.  Some of these districts spend upwards of $40K per students and still have 50% dropout rates and the ones who still somehow manage to graduate can't even read.

So the next time you mouth breathers in fly-over country make blanket idiotic derpy derp statements on how the suburbs and the rural areas are supported by the cities, realize not everyone lives in your crappy state.


I got news for you Jersey. You're in flyover country.
 
2013-11-20 03:35:36 PM

ikanreed: jigger: To The Escape Zeppelin!: Clearly the solution is to force the poor out of cities and into the countryside. Then suburbanites can move back into the city, property values will rise and inner city schools will have more money to spend on education!

That's called gentrification and I've heard it's pretty bad.

You hear that, but it's not entirely true.  Displacement hurts, but poor people are going to have a tough time of it anywhere, and increasing property values due to more economic stability boosts incomes in the area.

Like all economic changes, somebody tends to lose, but more people win than lose net.


I was being sarcastic. I don't see anything wrong with people fixing up old houses and making a neighborhood nicer. If someone is displaced because their property taxes increased, then they have a problem with the property taxes, not the neighbor who fixed up their house.
 
2013-11-20 03:38:15 PM

Frank N Stein: Pruitt Igoe


I had a great uncle that worked security there.  You couldn't walk near the building because people through stuff out of them without bothering to look down first.

I wouldn't mind moving in town, but generally speaking the houses are 2-3 times more expensive unless I wanted to be a tower dweller and be key card locked to be only on my floor where if my daughter wanted to step on a blade of grass or play on a swing we'd have to walk several blocks vs just stepping outside.  It is also nice being able to open the window at night and hear crickets and frogs vs police sirens.
 
2013-11-20 03:40:07 PM

To The Escape Zeppelin!: Clearly the solution is to force the poor out of cities and into the countryside. Then suburbanites can move back into the city, property values will rise and inner city schools will have more money to spend on education!


That's more or less what's happening in Chicago. They tore down the low income high rises, built expensive homes or nothing, and basically moved the former residents out of the city. Revitalized neighborhoods are slowly expanding and pricing long time residents out. The yuppies are moving in and the poor folk are moving out.
 
2013-11-20 03:40:44 PM

jigger: ikanreed: jigger: To The Escape Zeppelin!: Clearly the solution is to force the poor out of cities and into the countryside. Then suburbanites can move back into the city, property values will rise and inner city schools will have more money to spend on education!

That's called gentrification and I've heard it's pretty bad.

You hear that, but it's not entirely true.  Displacement hurts, but poor people are going to have a tough time of it anywhere, and increasing property values due to more economic stability boosts incomes in the area.

Like all economic changes, somebody tends to lose, but more people win than lose net.

I was being sarcastic. I don't see anything wrong with people fixing up old houses and making a neighborhood nicer. If someone is displaced because their property taxes increased, then they have a problem with the property taxes, not the neighbor who fixed up their house.


People get displaced by very rapidly rising rent as poorer people tend to lack the economic potential to secure mortgages.  Honestly, it's not a place where the sarcasm makes sense, because some people really do suffer.  It's just that gentrification is often taken as an entirely bad thing when it's usually brought up.
 
2013-11-20 03:41:37 PM

Frank N Stein: Yeah? And then inner city people would starve to death because there'd be no food coming in.


Actually, food would just become slightly more expensive. Good hyperbole, though.
 
2013-11-20 03:42:13 PM

dantheman195: Wait, the cities support the suburbs and rural areas? Maybe out in fly over country, but here in New Jersey the suburbs and rural areas support the cities. Look up how this state does school funding, money gets confiscated from hard working New Jersey families and it is than transferred to areas like Newark, Camden, Trenton, Asbury Park to pay for schools and infrastructure.  Some of these districts spend upwards of $40K per students and still have 50% dropout rates and the ones who still somehow manage to graduate can't even read.

So the next time you mouth breathers in fly-over country make blanket idiotic derpy derp statements on how the suburbs and the rural areas are supported by the cities, realize not everyone lives in your crappy state.


The entire state of New Jersey is a suburb of NYC.
 
2013-11-20 03:43:08 PM
people in the suburbs are not farmers.

they are parasites.

if you don't want to live in the city, you shouldn't work there either.
 
2013-11-20 03:45:37 PM
As a suburban parasite I gotta say "Give me more life, fu*ker!"
 
2013-11-20 03:46:03 PM

optimus_grime: people in the suburbs are not farmers.

they are parasites.

if you don't want to live in the city, you shouldn't work there either.


What about those who live in the suburbs and also work in the suburbs?

My employer is based in the suburbs.  When I took my current job, I actually moved out of the city to be closer to my place of employment.
 
2013-11-20 03:47:07 PM

optimus_grime: people in the suburbs are not farmers.

they are parasites.

if you don't want to live in the city, you shouldn't work there either.


Now that post is some hilarious comedy.  Kudos to you, sir.
 
2013-11-20 03:48:16 PM

TheGreatGazoo: Frank N Stein: Pruitt Igoe

I had a great uncle that worked security there.  You couldn't walk near the building because people through stuff out of them without bothering to look down first.

I wouldn't mind moving in town, but generally speaking the houses are 2-3 times more expensive unless I wanted to be a tower dweller and be key card locked to be only on my floor where if my daughter wanted to step on a blade of grass or play on a swing we'd have to walk several blocks vs just stepping outside.  It is also nice being able to open the window at night and hear crickets and frogs vs police sirens.



Another benefit to a stand-alone house is letting your kids bounce around inside on cold, rainy days or otherwise make some noise without people banging on their walls or ceiling to get you to make them stop. I'm guessing that kids in apartments are encouraged to watch a lot of TV.

 I'll also comment that, at least in New York, it appears that suburbs' net tax money ($7.9 billion = difference between govt money received and taxes) seems to be greater than the city ($4.1 billion, despite larger population). The idea that the city is supporting the suburbs does not seem to be true for NY, and I'm guessing this is true for areas around DC (for other reasons) and Detroit (for yet another set of reasons).
 
2013-11-20 03:48:21 PM
Article:

On the adverse effects of subsidizing the suburbs

"About 90 percent of the GDP of the United States, and about 86 percent of jobs are generated on 3 percent of the landmass of the country. So we have this extraordinary concentration of productivity in our inner cities. But what we do is - through tax policy - we cross-subsidize a lot of the more rural parts of the country, and especially the suburban parts of the country, which are not very productive, actually, in terms of the economy. And yes, so if you take a place like Singapore or Hong Kong, they get to keep the byproduct of their labor. So as a consequence, they don't have failing schools in the middle of their cities. They don't have hundred-year-old subway systems."


Fark Independent™ rebuttal:

Race riots!
 
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