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(Opposing Views)   Record numbers of Americans are renouncing their U.S. citizenship this year, to dodge U.S. taxes, apparently unaware that U.S. tax rates are almost the lowest in the developed world   (opposingviews.com) divider line 123
    More: Dumbass, U.S. Citizenship, United States, developed country, Americans, record numbers, u.s. taxes, effective tax rates, renunciation of citizenship  
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5614 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Nov 2013 at 6:41 PM (43 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-19 11:27:46 PM

rewind2846: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: US resident teabaggers "who've made noises" have nothing to do with Americans living overseas.

The ones who have made noises stay.
The ones who have done more than make noise leave.
Who's to say that they don't believe the same thing?
Plenty of people leave due to other factors, but only a certain percentage leave due to "THE TAXXESSSSSS!!!"
Those are the ones who are the focus of the article.



"Who's to say"

Well, certainly not you. You sound like you might have never even talked to an American expat, let alone been one. I have no idea why you are so eager to tar them all as racists (etc) when you obviously know jackshiat about them.

"Those are the ones who are the focus of the article"

TFA is focused on a group whose motives and situations the clueless author is wildly speculating about, same as you are.

/yes, the tea baggers have most recently been *talking* about leaving because of the scary blah guy, before that it was the pinko commie libs who wanted to escape Bush's Murika
 
2013-11-19 11:31:40 PM

llevrok: It's not necessarily about the lowest.

The US is one of the few countries in the world that follows your income.  If you live and work in a foreign country 100%, you pay that country's taxes AND (after an exclusion), US taxes.  So you are doubly taxed, in other words.

On the contrary, a Canadian working in the US (for example) pays NO Canadian taxes.  Only US ones.

The US now also taxes your savings if you are living outside the US and have savings there.  Failure to report has a stiff fine.


THIS.
 
2013-11-19 11:38:52 PM

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Theoretically you can be double-taxed but, in practice, treaties and US tax law normally keep that from happening. If you're somehow making a farkton of money in an... unusual location, then it may be a problem.


I'm in the process of moving (at least semi-permanently,) to Japan. From my research, you have to file a 1040 long form, but as long as you stay under a certain amount (I think it's around 96k/yr right now, without looking,) you don't have to pay US taxes.

I ran some quick numbers on what would come out of my paycheck. If I made roughly 80k USD a year, I'd net about 62k USD. Taxes taken out include a pension and such as well as healthcare, though. Japanese healthcare system is 70%-30% meaning they cover 70% of the bill, you 30%. There are other insurances to cover the gap and some stuff covered free, but I haven't really dove into that bit yet. Mind, this is just research and talking to other expats; IANAL.
 
2013-11-19 11:44:18 PM

theflatline: llevrok: It's not necessarily about the lowest.

The US is one of the few countries in the world that follows your income.  If you live and work in a foreign country 100%, you pay that country's taxes AND (after an exclusion), US taxes.  So you are doubly taxed, in other words.

On the contrary, a Canadian working in the US (for example) pays NO Canadian taxes.  Only US ones.

The US now also taxes your savings if you are living outside the US and have savings there.  Failure to report has a stiff fine.
Canadians travelling extensively, living or working abroad must still pay Canadian, and provincial or territorial, income taxes. It is important that you know your residency status and the income tax rules that apply to you while you are outside Canada.
Actually, no.


Actually, yes. If you read the Canadian rules it is clear that if you live and work abroad full time you do not have to file a return or pay any tax unless you have income from Canada, like shares, selling Canadian property, rent from Canadian property etc.
If you leave Canada to live elsewhere you can just stop filing in Canada. If you ever return you just start filing and paying again.
The US demands you file every year, even if you left the US as a baby and have never set foot on US soil and are now fifty, you must file, declare all your savings, bank accounts etc, year after year, until you die or renounce your citizenship.
Totally different from Canada.
 
2013-11-19 11:46:51 PM

Flint Ironstag: theflatline: llevrok: It's not necessarily about the lowest.

The US is one of the few countries in the world that follows your income.  If you live and work in a foreign country 100%, you pay that country's taxes AND (after an exclusion), US taxes.  So you are doubly taxed, in other words.

On the contrary, a Canadian working in the US (for example) pays NO Canadian taxes.  Only US ones.

The US now also taxes your savings if you are living outside the US and have savings there.  Failure to report has a stiff fine.
Canadians travelling extensively, living or working abroad must still pay Canadian, and provincial or territorial, income taxes. It is important that you know your residency status and the income tax rules that apply to you while you are outside Canada.
Actually, no.

Actually, yes. If you read the Canadian rules it is clear that if you live and work abroad full time you do not have to file a return or pay any tax unless you have income from Canada, like shares, selling Canadian property, rent from Canadian property etc.
If you leave Canada to live elsewhere you can just stop filing in Canada. If you ever return you just start filing and paying again.
The US demands you file every year, even if you left the US as a baby and have never set foot on US soil and are now fifty, you must file, declare all your savings, bank accounts etc, year after year, until you die or renounce your citizenship.
Totally different from Canada.


As a dual citizen, even talked to the IRS, never had to file when living out the country.
 
2013-11-19 11:54:31 PM

theflatline: Flint Ironstag: theflatline: llevrok: It's not necessarily about the lowest.

The US is one of the few countries in the world that follows your income.  If you live and work in a foreign country 100%, you pay that country's taxes AND (after an exclusion), US taxes.  So you are doubly taxed, in other words.

On the contrary, a Canadian working in the US (for example) pays NO Canadian taxes.  Only US ones.

The US now also taxes your savings if you are living outside the US and have savings there.  Failure to report has a stiff fine.
Canadians travelling extensively, living or working abroad must still pay Canadian, and provincial or territorial, income taxes. It is important that you know your residency status and the income tax rules that apply to you while you are outside Canada.
Actually, no.

Actually, yes. If you read the Canadian rules it is clear that if you live and work abroad full time you do not have to file a return or pay any tax unless you have income from Canada, like shares, selling Canadian property, rent from Canadian property etc.
If you leave Canada to live elsewhere you can just stop filing in Canada. If you ever return you just start filing and paying again.
The US demands you file every year, even if you left the US as a baby and have never set foot on US soil and are now fifty, you must file, declare all your savings, bank accounts etc, year after year, until you die or renounce your citizenship.
Totally different from Canada.

As a dual citizen, even talked to the IRS, never had to file when living out the country.



"If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside." - IRS

Not everyone has to file an income tax return in the first place. But if you do have to, you don't get out of it by moving overseas. (You do, however, get to file way more bullshiat paperwork in addition to any return.)
 
2013-11-19 11:57:50 PM

theflatline: As a dual citizen, even talked to the IRS, never had to file when living out the country.


That is contrary to everything I've read about US taxes, including the IRS website itself. If that was true then why are these people renouncing their citizenship? What is the point?
 
2013-11-20 12:29:37 AM
There is something else at work here, but before I get to that: Most people renouncing their citizenship have been expats for years, if not decades. The number of people actually moving away and renouncing their citizenship's is very low.

In the last year or two, the U.S. government passed the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA). This short sighted piece of legislation aims at putting burdens on foreign financial firms to produce onerous records on U.S. citizens living abroad. Because the U.S. has traditionally been the clearing house for international financial transactions, the politicians thought this would gain wide acceptance. They could not be more wrong!

The foreign financial institutions are building a new network to clear international transactions without having to rely upon the U.S.
Another unintended consequence is that these foreign financial companies are shutting down the accounts of Americans.

So, If you have been an expat for ten years and all of a sudden your local bank or local brokerage firm says they are going to close your account because you are an American, you pretty much have just reached your tipping point. Time to give up the U.S. passport!
 
2013-11-20 12:39:37 AM
It's funny how people say the USA is so low taxed by using stupid ways of measurement like percentage of GNP and such. Or when they use just federal income tax.... the USA is a country where taxes are nickled and dimed everywhere. And then there is the never accounted for inflation tax from all the money printing. FICA and such hide half the tax bite as 'employer contributions' even. Taxes are hidden away in the products we buy too. The true extent of how much we are taxed is quite well hidden to most americans that pay. If they sat down and added it all up there might be a revolution by Tuesday... although with the large numbers of people dependent on government checks and government jobs that revolution would probably fail by Wednesday.

The productive class in the USA, the middle class people who are taxed, those who make between roughly 55K and 250K, pay way more than 15% in taxes. More like 45-50% or more depending on where in the country they live.

It would probably be best to calculate how much we are taxed by how many lifetimes of earnings government consumes each year. Borrowing is just spending tomorrows productivity today. Recently I read an article that did so just for the federal government. The feds alone consumed the lifetime earnings of over two million americans in just one year alone. With all the other layers of government we are easily looking at 3 million people's life time earnings every year, probably more.
 
2013-11-20 12:40:32 AM
Good. Now let's pass some laws to prevent lobbying from ex-/non-citizens, and we'll be in good shape.
 
2013-11-20 12:45:56 AM

mr_larry: So, If you have been an expat for ten years and all of a sudden your local bank or local brokerage firm says they are going to close your account because you are an American, you pretty much have just reached your tipping point. Time to give up the U.S. passport!


That. Foreign banks chose simply prefer to no longer to have US citizens as customers rather than deal with the US government's control freak snooping and worse. For people who never intend to live in the USA again it is probably a lot less hassle just to give up US citizenship given this, the IRS, and who knows what other hassles.

Of course for the feds, having foreign banks refuse to do business with US citizens means better trapping our wealth where they can get at it.
 
2013-11-20 01:36:18 AM
Americans pay a ridiculously high tax rate; the average is around 54%.
http://www.nowandfutures.com/taxes.html
 
2013-11-20 01:41:56 AM

Old enough to know better: [i677.photobucket.com image 420x294]


They're already out.  Some have been 'out' for decades.
 
2013-11-20 02:08:21 AM
This was a fairly informed and civilized discussion, by FARK standards. If you happened to enjoy my enlightened postings on the subject matter, you should check out the site where I obtained my knowledge. Looking at the U.S. from the outside can be beneficial.
http://www.sovereignman.com/
Sign up for the daily emails. Very insightful and you might just see the disaster headed our way.
 
2013-11-20 02:27:57 AM

angstycoder: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Theoretically you can be double-taxed but, in practice, treaties and US tax law normally keep that from happening. If you're somehow making a farkton of money in an... unusual location, then it may be a problem.

I'm in the process of moving (at least semi-permanently,) to Japan. From my research, you have to file a 1040 long form, but as long as you stay under a certain amount (I think it's around 96k/yr right now, without looking,) you don't have to pay US taxes.

I ran some quick numbers on what would come out of my paycheck. If I made roughly 80k USD a year, I'd net about 62k USD. Taxes taken out include a pension and such as well as healthcare, though. Japanese healthcare system is 70%-30% meaning they cover 70% of the bill, you 30%. There are other insurances to cover the gap and some stuff covered free, but I haven't really dove into that bit yet. Mind, this is just research and talking to other expats; IANAL.


My wife is now a Landed Imm in Canada, and had worked in Japan for ~15 years prior, and paid into that pension.  Apparently it's money that's just dumped back into General Revenue, and the pension is very poor.  First off, you need to contrib for cumulative 20 years to collect any pension at all.  I checked into her paying the missing few years, and was told by other Japanese not to bother, it wouldn't be worth it.  The return would be so poor, it would be a wasted investment. Her mother has had her pension downsized recently, apparently the gov felt she didn't need that much any more.

Enjoy the experience, though, it's certainly been my favourite place to visit.
   mmmMMM Kyoto!

(Health care: Not aware of that 70:30 thing)
 
2013-11-20 06:46:18 AM

rewind2846: Hasn't anyone figured out the real reason behind this dumb sh*t?
This is not about taxes, since the financial stability needed to pick up and move to another country shows that you can indeed afford to pay comparatively low US taxes.

No, it's the n*****s. Most of the people I know who've made noises about leaving this country and moving elsewhere aren't concerned about the taxes as an abstract concept, but the fact that some of the money they pay for those taxes might go to help people they don't like. Those people are usually tarred (pun intended) with that particular racial epithet, one of many.

If it isn't blacks, it's Mexicans.
If it isn't Mexicans, it's young people.
If it isn't young people, it's unmarried women with kids.
And so on and so on. There's always one group of people who aren't "them" that fuels their ire every time the possibility arises that some of their tax money might be helping anyone in that group.


This is about as far from the truth as possible. Have you ever left a 1000 m radius of where you were born, or did you lose half of your brain in childhood?
 
2013-11-20 10:29:47 AM

proteus_b: This is about as far from the truth as possible. Have you ever left a 1000 m radius of where you were born, or did you lose half of your brain in childhood?


I've visited or done business in 22 countries in Europe, Asia and the middle east with the military, Canada, Mexico, Puerto Rico, The Virgin Islands, Cuba (GITMO) and 24 states. Been there, done that.
Next extremely stupid question? Maybe you can use the half of your brain that's left to formulate it.
 
2013-11-20 12:52:29 PM

sprgrss: misleading headline and article is misleading.

Those expats are paying taxes in America and the country they currently reside.  By renouncing US citizenship, they only pay the taxes of the country of residence and not also the US.


I would also like to add that the US is the only country that taxes citizen's outside income.

It's under the guise of fighting off-shore accounts but it ends of farking with your average expats (like me). I'd rather not have my farking Canadian retirement accounts taxed as regular investments so everything is going to have to go in my Husband's name like it's the 1950's.

I don't live in the US anymore, I don't use any services, and I would pay a fee every year to fund our embassies.
 
2013-11-20 01:08:53 PM
Record numbers of Americans are renouncing their U.S. citizenship this year, to dodge U.S. taxes, apparently unaware that U.S. tax rates are almost the lowest in the developed world

Why are so many people convinced by right-wing propaganda when it's so full of shiat?
 
2013-11-20 01:22:11 PM
BMFPitt:

My cousin-in-law renounced earlier this year and he knows he'll never be able to step foot in the U.S. again.

The guy can't get a tourist visa?  Foreigners visit the US all the time without issue.
 
2013-11-20 01:55:17 PM

theflatline: llevrok: It's not necessarily about the lowest.

The US is one of the few countries in the world that follows your income.  If you live and work in a foreign country 100%, you pay that country's taxes AND (after an exclusion), US taxes.  So you are doubly taxed, in other words.

On the contrary, a Canadian working in the US (for example) pays NO Canadian taxes.  Only US ones.

The US now also taxes your savings if you are living outside the US and have savings there.  Failure to report has a stiff fine.
Canadians travelling extensively, living or working abroad must still pay Canadian, and provincial or territorial, income taxes. It is important that you know your residency status and the income tax rules that apply to you while you are outside Canada.
Actually, no.


Just like in the US, it depends how long you stay in your home country to be considered a "resident".

If you spend half the year living in one country and the other half in Canada, there could be some tax implications. Also, if a Canadian company sent you to work in another country but is paying you as if you still lived in Canada, you will have to pay tax.

If you are living in another country full-time it doesn't count unless you have Canadian investments.
 
2013-11-20 02:00:24 PM

Makh: Ha ha, welcome to globalization.  Your government is now another commodity.  Don't like the ______?  Move to a place where you do.  No one is going to wait a whole generation or 5 for some sort of change.  In fact, I'm willing to bet people will pay extra for a place they are comfortable in.

I think the ultimate fark you would be if China drastically improved their human rights and electoral process and offered everything the US offered but for less money.


The funny thing is farking China allows for paid mat leave, it's up to 3 months I think.

The US? Still 0 paid, only 6 weeks unpaid.
 
2013-11-20 03:13:15 PM

TwistedFark: This has absolutely nothing to do with paying taxes.

I live overseas (I am a citizen of both the US and Australia). I pay taxes in Australia as my "tax home" as per US law and I file every year with Uncle Sam. My tax bill to the US government is always zero dollars. Why? Simple: Because I already pay more tax here in Australia than the US government would take.

It's not paying taxes that is a problem for people, because the tax burden isn't actually there - it's the legal requirements for filing.

In a nutshell, they've made it so difficult that you need to engage an expensive accountant just to do personal income tax filing and god help you if you own a business overseas, you're looking at having to lawyer up every year around tax time.

So yeah, I am thinking of handing in my passport, not because of the tax burden, but because they have made it such a pain in the ass. For other people, they 2-4k a year they have to spend on accountants otherwise is just too much cost for them to bear and it makes sense for them to basically wash their hands of the US, otherwise they have to not file (and break the law) or not eat.

Not everyone who lives overseas is super rich - most people I know who are ex-pats hold down normal jobs, or are school teachers.


This is is exactly my problem.  I pay a CPA in the states and a Steuerberater here in D'land -- I'm a long way from rich, but the paperwork is extreme.  Just one acronymn makes me tremble: FATCA.

Handing in my passport?  I'm far too sentimental about that; but I can't just go home:  Forgetting about  Eigenheim, kind und Karriere, the health care is good here; at home I'm afraid (without any implied judgement on the merits/demerits of ACA) this would mean the death penalty for me. While I'm too old to rock & roll, I'm still too young to die.
 
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