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(Opposing Views)   Record numbers of Americans are renouncing their U.S. citizenship this year, to dodge U.S. taxes, apparently unaware that U.S. tax rates are almost the lowest in the developed world   (opposingviews.com) divider line 123
    More: Dumbass, U.S. Citizenship, United States, developed country, Americans, record numbers, u.s. taxes, effective tax rates, renunciation of citizenship  
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5620 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Nov 2013 at 6:41 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



123 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-11-19 06:42:59 PM  
This just in: you can get rich without being really smart.
 
2013-11-19 06:44:16 PM  
Well bye.
 
2013-11-19 06:44:50 PM  
The ultimate example of Fark you I got mine!
 
2013-11-19 06:45:01 PM  
b-but, he's blah!  I can't pay taxes to a blah!
 
2013-11-19 06:45:15 PM  
misleading headline and article is misleading.

Those expats are paying taxes in America and the country they currently reside.  By renouncing US citizenship, they only pay the taxes of the country of residence and not also the US.
 
2013-11-19 06:45:22 PM  
They must really love their country!
 
2013-11-19 06:46:05 PM  
Well, if you're a corporation, maybe.
 
2013-11-19 06:46:28 PM  
So less people with republican leanings? Sweet.
 
2013-11-19 06:46:31 PM  
The US is also one of the few countries that collects taxes on you if you're a citizen living abroad. They're paying taxes twice. Once to their resident country and once to the US. Hence why if you're living abroad you would renounce citizenship: to save that tax money.
 
2013-11-19 06:47:03 PM  
Good luck coming back, ya quitters! We'll TOTALLY look after your stuff.

/ don't they know that, unless they move to Somalia or something, the US could extradite them for tax evasion
 
2013-11-19 06:47:15 PM  
Well, there's 560 fewer people to shop for this Christmas.
 
2013-11-19 06:48:06 PM  

sprgrss: misleading headline and article is misleading.

Those expats are paying taxes in America and the country they currently reside.  By renouncing US citizenship, they only pay the taxes of the country of residence and not also the US.


This.  They're still paying the high taxes overseas, they just aren't paying our taxes.

/Or more often, they either didn't know or "forgot" to pay the US taxes and now the IRS is after them.
 
2013-11-19 06:48:27 PM  
Since I refuse to click the link and support the derp-arts, I will assume that most of those actually renouncing citizenship are doing so for a different set of legal principles (like being the chief shareholder of several companies on three continents or getting around Chinese or Russian rules for foreigners by becoming a citizen there) rather than an outright desire to leave the US.

It's also not uncommon to marry someone from another country and emigrate to there.

But clearly taxes are the only reason anyone ever does anything.
 
2013-11-19 06:48:30 PM  
It's not necessarily about the lowest.

The US is one of the few countries in the world that follows your income.  If you live and work in a foreign country 100%, you pay that country's taxes AND (after an exclusion), US taxes.  So you are doubly taxed, in other words.

On the contrary, a Canadian working in the US (for example) pays NO Canadian taxes.  Only US ones.

The US now also taxes your savings if you are living outside the US and have savings there.  Failure to report has a stiff fine.
 
2013-11-19 06:50:10 PM  

sprgrss: misleading headline and article is misleading.

Those expats are paying taxes in America and the country they currently reside.  By renouncing US citizenship, they only pay the taxes of the country of residence and not also the US.


Not true. The US claims the right to collect income tax on former citizens for 10 years after renouncing citizenship.  See the Internal Revenue Code, Section 877.
 
2013-11-19 06:50:15 PM  

Jello Fever: Well, if you're a corporation, maybe.


Like Apple (all you IPhone fans) who runs their international sales thru Ireland (who has an way low corporate tax rate) and avoids US taxes.
 
2013-11-19 06:50:26 PM  
i677.photobucket.com
 
2013-11-19 06:51:14 PM  
Wait, you have to pay taxes on Bitcoin capital gains??? Ha... I'm off to Malta, Cyprus, San Marino and Andorra... once you go GOLD, you never go back to paper!!!
 
2013-11-19 06:52:04 PM  

sprgrss: misleading headline and article is misleading.

Those expats are paying taxes in America and the country they currently reside.  By renouncing US citizenship, they only pay the taxes of the country of residence and not also the US.


That's what I came to say, If you plan on living out the rest of your life in another country why continue to pay US taxes.

Plus It depends on how you make your money, In Switzerland which the article mentions the capital gains tax is zero. So if you are retired and living off capital gains you would be smarter than subby to move there.
 
2013-11-19 06:52:17 PM  
The ex-pat reporting requirements are onerous.  If you have any kind of complex business and are living offshore, you must get a lawyer to do your taxes at a considerable expense.  Otherwise you risk forfeiture of assets or worse.  So thank Congress for making crappy laws.
 
2013-11-19 06:52:37 PM  
I remember hearing about this being related to changes in filing requirements. People like a American-Swedish mother who moved there to marry 20 years ago being levied that double taxation and facing a bigger CPA bill than tax bill.
 
2013-11-19 06:52:44 PM  

Kope: sprgrss: misleading headline and article is misleading.

Those expats are paying taxes in America and the country they currently reside.  By renouncing US citizenship, they only pay the taxes of the country of residence and not also the US.

Not true. The US claims the right to collect income tax on former citizens for 10 years after renouncing citizenship.  See the Internal Revenue Code, Section 877.


I see someone doesn't understand the meaning of "not true"
 
2013-11-19 06:53:05 PM  

Adss2009: The US is also one of the few countries that collects taxes on you if you're a citizen living abroad. They're paying taxes twice. Once to their resident country and once to the US. Hence why if you're living abroad you would renounce citizenship: to save that tax money.


No no, it must be because they're unaware.
 
2013-11-19 06:53:18 PM  
images3.wikia.nocookie.net

This also means we can take them out with a drone strike without too much hand wringing.
 
2013-11-19 06:53:32 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: The ex-pat reporting requirements are onerous.  If you have any kind of complex business and are living offshore, you must get a lawyer to do your taxes at a considerable expense.  Otherwise you risk forfeiture of assets or worse.  So thank Congress for making crappy laws.


if it weren't for crappy laws we wouldn't have any laws at all, and it would be just like Somalia here.
you don't want to live in Somalia do you?
 
2013-11-19 06:58:16 PM  
FTA :

Switzerland, the country where singer Tina Turner (pictured) is now a citizen after giving up her U.S. citizenship this past April, collects about 30 percent of its GDP in taxes, low for Europe, but twice as high as in America

Whats GDP got to do - got to do with it?
 
2013-11-19 06:58:33 PM  
Any tax-motivated renunciation is more about avoiding the bizarrely asinine global taxation of the USA and the even-more-asinine and onerous reporting requirements.

These people are by and large already living overseas and paying taxes in some other jurisdiction.

And who gives a flying fark about "taxes measured the traditional way, as percentage of Gross Domestic Product," in selected nations. When making a personal judgment about whether to renounce citizenship, if you are considering it for tax reasons, what matters is your PERSONAL tax situation.

TFA is just farking stupid.

/and there are plenty of other reasons that someone might have for renouncing citizenship, so the gist of TFA is baseless speculation in the first place
 
2013-11-19 06:59:02 PM  
560 people?  Why it's a stampede.
 
2013-11-19 07:02:26 PM  
Wasn't there some kind of historical event in the USA regarding taxation from abroad?
 
2013-11-19 07:03:39 PM  
This has absolutely nothing to do with paying taxes.

I live overseas (I am a citizen of both the US and Australia). I pay taxes in Australia as my "tax home" as per US law and I file every year with Uncle Sam. My tax bill to the US government is always zero dollars. Why? Simple: Because I already pay more tax here in Australia than the US government would take.

It's not paying taxes that is a problem for people, because the tax burden isn't actually there - it's the legal requirements for filing.

In a nutshell, they've made it so difficult that you need to engage an expensive accountant just to do personal income tax filing and god help you if you own a business overseas, you're looking at having to lawyer up every year around tax time.

So yeah, I am thinking of handing in my passport, not because of the tax burden, but because they have made it such a pain in the ass. For other people, they 2-4k a year they have to spend on accountants otherwise is just too much cost for them to bear and it makes sense for them to basically wash their hands of the US, otherwise they have to not file (and break the law) or not eat.

Not everyone who lives overseas is super rich - most people I know who are ex-pats hold down normal jobs, or are school teachers.
 
2013-11-19 07:04:51 PM  

TomD9938: FTA :

Switzerland, the country where singer Tina Turner (pictured) is now a citizen after giving up her U.S. citizenship this past April, collects about 30 percent of its GDP in taxes, low for Europe, but twice as high as in America

Whats GDP got to do - got to do with it?


Ha!
 
2013-11-19 07:06:07 PM  
Do you think it might have something to do with America becoming a terrifying police-state?
 
2013-11-19 07:07:06 PM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Any tax-motivated renunciation is more about avoiding the bizarrely asinine global taxation of the USA and the even-more-asinine and onerous reporting requirements.

These people are by and large already living overseas and paying taxes in some other jurisdiction.

And who gives a flying fark about "taxes measured the traditional way, as percentage of Gross Domestic Product," in selected nations. When making a personal judgment about whether to renounce citizenship, if you are considering it for tax reasons, what matters is your PERSONAL tax situation.

TFA is just farking stupid.

/and there are plenty of other reasons that someone might have for renouncing citizenship, so the gist of TFA is baseless speculation in the first place


media.tumblr.com
 
2013-11-19 07:07:54 PM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Any tax-motivated renunciation is more about avoiding the bizarrely asinine global taxation of the USA and the even-more-asinine and onerous reporting requirements.


I've read that it requires a very specialized tax accountant to prepare income returns for expats overseas.  It isn't uncommon to pay €500+ for the service.  So it is an expensive PITA.

If you're only making €50,000 or less a year, it just doesn't make sense to keep your citizenship if you don't plan on moving back.
 
2013-11-19 07:08:57 PM  

sprgrss: misleading headline and article is misleading.

Those expats are paying taxes in America and the country they currently reside.  By renouncing US citizenship, they only pay the taxes of the country of residence and not also the US.


That.  It's a good deal on an individual level if you don't particularly plan to move back to the US.  Why pay the membership fee if you're never going back to the gym?
 
2013-11-19 07:11:22 PM  
People emigrate to other countries.

News at 11

// Why would you think it was weird? People emigrate here. People emigrate from here
 
2013-11-19 07:11:34 PM  

Adss2009: The US is also one of the few countries that collects taxes on you if you're a citizen living abroad. They're paying taxes twice. Once to their resident country and once to the US. Hence why if you're living abroad you would renounce citizenship: to save that tax money.


Except for the $97,600 (single) foreign income exclusion...
 
2013-11-19 07:12:35 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: The ex-pat reporting requirements are onerous.  If you have any kind of complex business and are living offshore, you must get a lawyer to do your taxes at a considerable expense.  Otherwise you risk forfeiture of assets or worse.  So thank Congress for making crappy laws.



This is exactly the reasons why people renounce their citizenship. Most people don't pay taxes in both countries but it's the needing to file and the penalties levied and potential assets seized that are making people do this.
 
2013-11-19 07:13:13 PM  

TomD9938: FTA :

Switzerland, the country where singer Tina Turner (pictured) is now a citizen after giving up her U.S. citizenship this past April, collects about 30 percent of its GDP in taxes, low for Europe, but twice as high as in America

Whats GDP got to do - got to do with it?


Basically, I can go collect taxes from you, I can collect corporate taxes and let them pass it on in higher prices, I can collect fees, I can collect student loan interest payments (And isn't this like a $100 Billion industry for the federal government at this point?), but at a certain point, the tax man's gonna get his money.

It's basically a decent way of saying "How much more expensive is my life because of the tax man?"
 
2013-11-19 07:15:49 PM  
Maybe they're Nobel laureates who want to keep 100% of their prize money?

/America: where Nobel laureates pay taxes but many corporations don't
 
2013-11-19 07:16:45 PM  

Dinjiin: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Any tax-motivated renunciation is more about avoiding the bizarrely asinine global taxation of the USA and the even-more-asinine and onerous reporting requirements.

I've read that it requires a very specialized tax accountant to prepare income returns for expats overseas.  It isn't uncommon to pay €500+ for the service.  So it is an expensive PITA.

If you're only making €50,000 or less a year, it just doesn't make sense to keep your citizenship if you don't plan on moving back.



Yeah, definitely an expensive PITA , especially if there's any financial complexity at all to your life. It isn't even just the income, it's any overseas bank account or investment or business you're involved in, all sorts of madness. You end up reporting the same farking thing on four different forms when there's no real reason for the US to care about it in the first place. It has gotten to the point where some banks etc won't even deal with American expats because then the IRS is trying to climb up THEIR asses too.

Whether it makes sense to keep citizenship, though...that's about more than next year's IRS bullshiat.
 
2013-11-19 07:18:41 PM  

TwistedFark: This has absolutely nothing to do with paying taxes.

I live overseas (I am a citizen of both the US and Australia). I pay taxes in Australia as my "tax home" as per US law and I file every year with Uncle Sam. My tax bill to the US government is always zero dollars. Why? Simple: Because I already pay more tax here in Australia than the US government would take.

It's not paying taxes that is a problem for people, because the tax burden isn't actually there - it's the legal requirements for filing.

In a nutshell, they've made it so difficult that you need to engage an expensive accountant just to do personal income tax filing and god help you if you own a business overseas, you're looking at having to lawyer up every year around tax time.

So yeah, I am thinking of handing in my passport, not because of the tax burden, but because they have made it such a pain in the ass. For other people, they 2-4k a year they have to spend on accountants otherwise is just too much cost for them to bear and it makes sense for them to basically wash their hands of the US, otherwise they have to not file (and break the law) or not eat.

Not everyone who lives overseas is super rich - most people I know who are ex-pats hold down normal jobs, or are school teachers.


You got that right. I am an American living in Canada and its this gigantic pain in the ass that the tax law is that we have to have a high priced accountant to file every year even though I have never had to pay a cent in taxes. And last year the IRS wanted access to all Canadian bank accounts for snooping reasons. They wanted to seize assets for every year missed in filing. The Canadian government shouted them down for that.

But here's the run. My daughter is autistic and she's supposed to file when she turns 18. WTF is that about. People who moved here when they were 4 years old are suddenly running into trouble because they've never filed. The IRS is too intrusive, too draconian yet totally lousy at going after the mega swindlers, sheep corporations and off shore tax dodgers.
 
2013-11-19 07:20:51 PM  

spamdog: Wasn't there some kind of historical event in the USA regarding taxation from abroad?


Taxation from abroad is also known as alimony.
 
2013-11-19 07:20:51 PM  

Jim_Callahan: sprgrss: misleading headline and article is misleading.

Those expats are paying taxes in America and the country they currently reside.  By renouncing US citizenship, they only pay the taxes of the country of residence and not also the US.

That.  It's a good deal on an individual level if you don't particularly plan to move back to the US.  Why pay the membership fee if you're never going back to the gym?


Weeelll... you're still kinda receiving benefits from your tax dollars. When you're in some foreign jail on trumped up political charges, it's good to know the American Embassy's phone number is still connected. Need saving from some pirates, or wrecked your sailboat on the high seas? That U.S. Coast Guard cutter or Navy vessel appears mighty friendly.

/the world's policemen need paid too
 
2013-11-19 07:21:12 PM  
what a stupid farking whiny article written by either an axe grinding douche or ill informed assmaster.

and before i rant on the general topic, lets take the facebook guy: he was not born american and became american, and lived all over. his footprint was always international, and what he did makes total freakin' sense.

but to the article in general:

only in the US do you have the wonderful privilege of being taxed based on yoru citizenship, not on your residence or place of work. virtually no country in the world does this aside from the US.

not only that, but because of the new FATCA requirements that Washington rammed down the throats of world's banks, banks abroad have to submit financial information on US citizens to washington! so most banks abroad just dont want to do business with US clients any more, which really farks expats who are working abroad. its not just the ueber rich trying to escape the tax man; its the normal dudes working abroad who suddenly are having real trouble finding a bank to give them a mortgage or do business with them because they're too expensive of a client ot serve since many financial institutions dont have the ability to comply with the FATCA requirements.

and "that the US has lower tax rates than other countries"; wtf does that have to do with anything? it freakin' sucks you have to file 2ce! it freakin' sucks the US is the only country in the west to demand their citizens abroad file at all! and if you pay taxes twice, that double farkin sucks, since you sure as hell arent seeing those tax dollars at work in your community are you.

fark fatca and the rest of those laws which are nothing more than taxation without representation, and making life harder for those of us who've left the US to persue dreams elsewhere.
 
2013-11-19 07:24:04 PM  

Danger Avoid Death: Taxation from abroad is also known as alimony.


oh shiat, lol
 
2013-11-19 07:24:51 PM  

Dinjiin: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Any tax-motivated renunciation is more about avoiding the bizarrely asinine global taxation of the USA and the even-more-asinine and onerous reporting requirements.

I've read that it requires a very specialized tax accountant to prepare income returns for expats overseas.  It isn't uncommon to pay €500+ for the service.  So it is an expensive PITA.

If you're only making €50,000 or less a year, it just doesn't make sense to keep your citizenship if you don't plan on moving back.


when i lived in switzerland i continued to do my taxes as i've always done them: with turbo tax. if you're just a normal worker in a foreign country and dont have holdings all over, a complicated portfolio, real estate back in the us etc its not thaaaat hard to file... its just freakin' annoying as hell.

the real problem is the financial instituions just took a look at th erequirements washington pushed on them and said "welp, judging on how much it'll cost to make the changes necessary to our systems to comply with these requirements, its more cost effective to just terminate the relationship with all our US clients."

people are giving their citizenship to be able to have relationships with their local financial institutions more than they are fleeing the tax man, i'd reckon.
 
2013-11-19 07:25:48 PM  
I can't say I blame these people.  I'm not rich, I'm most definitely not a conservative, and I don't have any huge issue with Obama, I just wouldn't be able to comply with the current system as well as function in another country.  I'd strongly consider renouncing my citizenship as well if I lived overseas.  It's really as simple as that.

Ours is the only country that does this to it's expats.  Love it or leave it... if the latter, be sure to keep giving us money to fund our paranoid police state because Freedom isn't Free!
 
2013-11-19 07:27:15 PM  
I found this bit 'o trivia courtesy of Google:

"Annual premiums for employer-sponsored family health coverage reached $16,351 this year, up 4 percent from last year, with workers on average paying $4,565 towards the cost of their coverage, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation/Health Research & Educational Trust (HRET) 2013 Employer Health Benefits Survey."

So that's about $21,000 a year for health insurance per family.  If we added that $21,000 to our tax bill so that our new "tax" included the cost of socialized medicine, what would our tax rate be then, and how would it compare to places like the UK or Sweden?
 
2013-11-19 07:28:44 PM  

Kope: sprgrss: misleading headline and article is misleading.

Those expats are paying taxes in America and the country they currently reside.  By renouncing US citizenship, they only pay the taxes of the country of residence and not also the US.

Not true. The US claims the right to collect income tax on former citizens for 10 years after renouncing citizenship.  See the Internal Revenue Code, Section 877.


It looks like that was the original 877. And even that was only tax on US sourced income, not on what you earned in your new home country. The New 877A doesn't mention that ten year term.
 
2013-11-19 07:28:58 PM  

Lord Summerisle: Do you think it might have something to do with America becoming a terrifying police-state?


What are you, some kind of Allahcommie?
 
2013-11-19 07:30:20 PM  

llevrok: Jello Fever: Well, if you're a corporation, maybe.

Like Apple (all you IPhone fans) who runs their international sales thru Ireland (who has an way low corporate tax rate) and avoids US taxes.


And IKEA is owned by a charity.

/this just in: the rich right laws to protect the rich.
//these folks are traitors pure and simple. Living in countries with state supported healthcare, good mass transit systems, and lower violent crime rates. Cowards!
 
2013-11-19 07:31:36 PM  

FizixJunkee: I found this bit 'o trivia courtesy of Google:

"Annual premiums for employer-sponsored family health coverage reached $16,351 this year, up 4 percent from last year, with workers on average paying $4,565 towards the cost of their coverage, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation/Health Research & Educational Trust (HRET) 2013 Employer Health Benefits Survey."

So that's about $21,000 a year for health insurance per family.  If we added that $21,000 to our tax bill so that our new "tax" included the cost of socialized medicine, what would our tax rate be then, and how would it compare to places like the UK or Sweden?


shutup with your sensible single payer nonsense, you freedom hating bolshevik
 
2013-11-19 07:36:19 PM  
The irony is delightful how the same people who are completely pro-immigrant are simultaneously completely anti-emigrant
 
2013-11-19 07:36:56 PM  
How do I convince Alec Baldwin to finally leave?
 
2013-11-19 07:36:56 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Weeelll... you're still kinda receiving benefits from your tax dollars. When you're in some foreign jail on trumped up political charges, it's good to know the American Embassy's phone number is still connected. Need saving from some pirates, or wrecked your sailboat on the high seas? That U.S. Coast Guard cutter or Navy vessel appears mighty friendly.

/the world's policemen need paid too


Does every American really think that everywhere else in the world is a lawless hellhole where false arrest, piracy, political imprisonment etc happen so often that you have to take that into account when thinking about your tax? If you're a contractor in Iraq or working on an oil rig in Nigeria then maybe your point would be valid.
But I suspect most people we are talking about live in places like Canada, Australia, NZ, the UK, France, Germany etc where human rights are, by and large, equal to the US. And I've got news for you buddy, if you are arrested in one of those countries the USA is not going to send in a SEAL team to break you out or send an aircraft carrier as a threat. What do you really think they will do?

Many other countries have navies, coastguards and search and rescue. In civilised countries we rescue people without first asking if they are a taxpayer.
 
2013-11-19 07:37:04 PM  

FizixJunkee: I found this bit 'o trivia courtesy of Google:

"Annual premiums for employer-sponsored family health coverage reached $16,351 this year, up 4 percent from last year, with workers on average paying $4,565 towards the cost of their coverage, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation/Health Research & Educational Trust (HRET) 2013 Employer Health Benefits Survey."

So that's about $21,000 a year for health insurance per family.  If we added that $21,000 to our tax bill so that our new "tax" included the cost of socialized medicine, what would our tax rate be then, and how would it compare to places like the UK or Sweden?


US GDP per capita is $50K.  So 42%/(average household size).

Except that we have progressive taxes, we're already at 53% marginal taxes (in CA, but still), and when France raised them to 75%, the rich said "See ya".  So any tax would of necessity fall somewhat on the backs of the poor and middle class.  Maybe a nice 20% VAT?  That's regressive enough.
 
2013-11-19 07:37:46 PM  
Who the hell measures how much their tax burden is compared to how much the country as a whole derives its income compared to its GDP?

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
 
2013-11-19 07:39:15 PM  
A lot of Americans are retiring to countries like Mexico, where they can live cheaply but relatively well on their fixed incomes. The British have been doing this for a long time.

I expect this can drive the number of ex-pats dropping their citizenship up very rapidly when your country insists on double-dipping on taxation. Even a shift between the destination countries might drive tax-avoidance. For example, if people are now chosing countries without tax-sharing treaties over countries that have them, there could be a rapid and sizeable shift as the Baby Boomers continue to move into retirement.
 
2013-11-19 07:41:31 PM  

sprgrss: misleading headline and article is misleading.

Those expats are paying taxes in America and the country they currently reside.  By renouncing US citizenship, they only pay the taxes of the country of residence and not also the US.


THIS

Plus the law is getting crazy complicated so even people making modest salaries are having to pay someone to figure out what they owe.

Christ, I'm pretty damn liberal and this headline is still pretty damn stupid.

There was a good BBC article not that long ago that profiled Americans who were renouncing.  Plenty of people were born in the US but hadn't lived here for decades, but kept the citizenship (and paid taxes) just because.  This was finally cause for them to say "f--k it, I'm out".

And from what I know (admittedly  not much, no dog in this fight unless/until the SO claims Irish citizenship he's qualified for) this isn't actually having the intended effect of punishing wealthy tax dodgers which was supposed to be the point.  Ordinary people are just kind of getting screwed and this was the last straw.
 
2013-11-19 07:42:52 PM  

brantgoose: A lot of Americans are retiring to countries like Mexico, where they can live cheaply but relatively well on their fixed incomes. The British have been doing this for a long time.

I expect this can drive the number of ex-pats dropping their citizenship up very rapidly when your country insists on double-dipping on taxation. Even a shift between the destination countries might drive tax-avoidance. For example, if people are now chosing countries without tax-sharing treaties over countries that have them, there could be a rapid and sizeable shift as the Baby Boomers continue to move into retirement.


generally speaking tho the fixed income a typical retiree couple earns will not be enough to put them over the top of the line which will oblige them to pay taxes twice.

again, the big threat to the expats with all this, and why many people are renouncing their citizenship, is as much about being able to interface with the financial systems of the countries in which they live, since many banks and lenders will no longer do business with US citizens because of the reporting requirements.
 
2013-11-19 07:45:02 PM  

Flint Ironstag: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Weeelll... you're still kinda receiving benefits from your tax dollars. When you're in some foreign jail on trumped up political charges, it's good to know the American Embassy's phone number is still connected. Need saving from some pirates, or wrecked your sailboat on the high seas? That U.S. Coast Guard cutter or Navy vessel appears mighty friendly.

/the world's policemen need paid too

Does every American really think that everywhere else in the world is a lawless hellhole where false arrest, piracy, political imprisonment etc happen so often that you have to take that into account when thinking about your tax? If you're a contractor in Iraq or working on an oil rig in Nigeria then maybe your point would be valid.
But I suspect most people we are talking about live in places like Canada, Australia, NZ, the UK, France, Germany etc where human rights are, by and large, equal to the US. And I've got news for you buddy, if you are arrested in one of those countries the USA is not going to send in a SEAL team to break you out or send an aircraft carrier as a threat. What do you really think they will do?

Many other countries have navies, coastguards and search and rescue. In civilised countries we rescue people without first asking if they are a taxpayer.


Actually... it's kind of a law of the sea (well, international conventions anyway) and all of that to rescue who needs rescuing.  Unless you're a cruise ship, in which case, meh.  Or it's a boatload of immigrants, feel free to take your sweet time.
 
2013-11-19 07:47:51 PM  

sprgrss: misleading headline and article is misleading.

Those expats are paying taxes in America and the country they currently reside. By renouncing US citizenship, they only pay the taxes of the country of residence and not also the US.


No.  US tax rules normally avoid double taxation.

llevrok: It's not necessarily about the lowest.

The US is one of the few countries in the world that follows your income.  If you live and work in a foreign country 100%, you pay that country's taxes AND (after an exclusion), US taxes.  So you are doubly taxed, in other words.

On the contrary, a Canadian working in the US (for example) pays NO Canadian taxes.  Only US ones.

The US now also taxes your savings if you are living outside the US and have savings there.  Failure to report has a stiff fine.


Except you normally get a credit for foreign taxes paid.

What's actually going on is that most countries don't tax foreign income.  If your citizenship and income are from different places you're not going to pay much tax unless you're a US citizen.

There's also the abomination called FATCA.  It basically imposes the same reporting requirements on foreign financial institutions that US institutions are now subject to.  Oops, that's a *BIG* hassle for them, all too many are saying "No US customers" instead.  A lot of those who have married a foreigner and have made their lives in the other country are now ditching their US citizenship because it's causing them problems.

TwistedFark: This has absolutely nothing to do with paying taxes.

I live overseas (I am a citizen of both the US and Australia). I pay taxes in Australia as my "tax home" as per US law and I file every year with Uncle Sam. My tax bill to the US government is always zero dollars. Why? Simple: Because I already pay more tax here in Australia than the US government would take.

It's not paying taxes that is a problem for people, because the tax burden isn't actually there - it's the legal requirements for filing.

In a nutshell, they've made it so difficult that you need to engage an expensive accountant just to do personal income tax filing and god help you if you own a business overseas, you're looking at having to lawyer up every year around tax time.

So yeah, I am thinking of handing in my passport, not because of the tax burden, but because they have made it such a pain in the ass. For other people, they 2-4k a year they have to spend on accountants otherwise is just too much cost for them to bear and it makes sense for them to basically wash their hands of the US, otherwise they have to not file (and break the law) or not eat.

Not everyone who lives overseas is super rich - most people I know who are ex-pats hold down normal jobs, or are school teachers.


^^^THIS^^^
 
2013-11-19 07:49:05 PM  
Back to Darwin, stupid leads the intellegence of so many the species is doomed.
 
2013-11-19 07:58:19 PM  
I want to THIS so many posts in this thread I don't know where to start.

This, author of TFA, is what happens when you bother to listen to people who actually know what the fark they're talking about.
 
2013-11-19 08:03:38 PM  
Or maybe they could be trying to avoid being double taxed by the U.S. while they are working in other countries.

The only other country that taxes its non-resident citizens is Best Korea.
 
2013-11-19 08:12:32 PM  

Loren: sprgrss: misleading headline and article is misleading.

Those expats are paying taxes in America and the country they currently reside. By renouncing US citizenship, they only pay the taxes of the country of residence and not also the US.

No.  US tax rules normally avoid double taxation.
On the contrary, a Canadian working in the US (for example) pays NO Canadian taxes.  Only US ones.

The US now also taxes your savings if you are living outside the US and have savings there.  Failure to report has a stiff fine.

Except you normally get a credit for foreign taxes paid.


Up to a point.

I am a US citizen in Canada.  In effect, I get tax relief up to about $80,000.00.  I get taxed by both countries on income over that.  My predecessor was very hard hit by it - no one warned him.
 
2013-11-19 08:21:13 PM  

TomD9938: FTA :

Switzerland, the country where singer Tina Turner (pictured) is now a citizen after giving up her U.S. citizenship this past April, collects about 30 percent of its GDP in taxes, low for Europe, but twice as high as in America

Whats GDP got to do - got to do with it?


Nothing. Who ever wrote that article is trying to troll.
 
2013-11-19 08:23:29 PM  
Perhaps where they are going to live spends their money more wisely? Don't know. They may be just trying to be edgy, or possibly assholes. Ya just don't know do ya?
 
2013-11-19 08:37:55 PM  

meyerkev: sprgrss: misleading headline and article is misleading.

Those expats are paying taxes in America and the country they currently reside.  By renouncing US citizenship, they only pay the taxes of the country of residence and not also the US.

This.  They're still paying the high taxes overseas, they just aren't paying our taxes.

/Or more often, they either didn't know or "forgot" to pay

file the US taxes and now the IRS is after them.

The problem is not paying taxes.  It's having to file taxes.  The US requires that all citizens file tax forms for income generated outside the country.  Ours are considered somewhat painful to file.

They ex-pat generally doesn't have to pay any US taxes - the local taxes are generally higher than the US taxes on income, so no money is owed by the ex-pat in most cases.  But having to file and get all your banks to generate the necessary documentation is a pain in the ass.  Many financial institutions will say "No thanks" if you want to open an account.  They don't want to deal with Uncle Sam, and they don't have to since they are a foreign financial institution that would otherwise have no dealings with the US government beyond the occasional money laundering investigation.

So ex-patriots face a terrible situation - deal with mounds of paperwork and annoyances in the financial world, or switch teams.  If you are never planning on heading back to the US, opting out of the paperwork does make some sense.
 
2013-11-19 08:39:39 PM  

llevrok: So you are doubly taxed, in other words.


No.

You end up being taxed at the higher of the two rates, and if the country you earned the income in happens to have a lower rate, you end up paying that country what it is owed, and the difference to the US.

This is not double taxation.
 
2013-11-19 08:44:30 PM  

Flint Ironstag: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Weeelll... you're still kinda receiving benefits from your tax dollars. When you're in some foreign jail on trumped up political charges, it's good to know the American Embassy's phone number is still connected. Need saving from some pirates, or wrecked your sailboat on the high seas? That U.S. Coast Guard cutter or Navy vessel appears mighty friendly.

/the world's policemen need paid too

Does every American really think that everywhere else in the world is a lawless hellhole where false arrest, piracy, political imprisonment etc happen so often that you have to take that into account when thinking about your tax? If you're a contractor in Iraq or working on an oil rig in Nigeria then maybe your point would be valid.
But I suspect most people we are talking about live in places like Canada, Australia, NZ, the UK, France, Germany etc where human rights are, by and large, equal to the US. And I've got news for you buddy, if you are arrested in one of those countries the USA is not going to send in a SEAL team to break you out or send an aircraft carrier as a threat. What do you really think they will do?

Many other countries have navies, coastguards and search and rescue. In civilised countries we rescue people without first asking if they are a taxpayer.


Unless they are brown or black.
 
2013-11-19 08:48:16 PM  
I was gonna say: Bank robbers don't tend to stick around after the robbery. But in our case, I don't think they're anywhere near finished with the robbery.
 
2013-11-19 08:48:35 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: When you're in some foreign jail on trumped up political charges, it's good to know the American Embassy's phone number is still connected. Need saving from some pirates, or wrecked your sailboat on the high seas? That U.S. Coast Guard cutter or Navy vessel appears mighty friendly.


This might be news to you, but other countries have embassies and navies, too. Consular services and maritime rescue are hardly some unique privileges of Americans.
 
2013-11-19 08:48:48 PM  

Adss2009: The US is also one of the few countries that collects taxes on you if you're a citizen living abroad. They're paying taxes twice. Once to their resident country and once to the US. Hence why if you're living abroad you would renounce citizenship: to save that tax money.


Came here to say this. The United States is the only country that collects taxes if you live and work in another country. And the idea that U.S. charges higher taxes than only Mexico, Chile and Argentina is completely laughable. Taxes measured as a percentage of GDP is meaningless at the individual level.

The Facebook guy that went to Singapore is smart. Their top tax rate is 20%. The country is awash in cash, with no debt. Their banks are amongst the best capitalized in the world.
 
2013-11-19 08:53:30 PM  

MadHatter500: The problem is not paying taxes.  It's having to file taxes.  The US requires that all citizens file tax forms for income generated outside the country.  Ours are considered somewhat painful to file.


Especially compared to countries like the UK where "filing taxes" is something that the average person just doesn't have to do. Employers calculate income tax and send it straight to the government. What you get paid into your bank is yours. Millions of people can get from eighteen to retirement without ever having to fill out a tax return or even think about paying tax.
 
2013-11-19 09:00:23 PM  
Flint Ironstag:

Does every American really think that everywhere else in the world is a lawless hellhole where false arrest, piracy, political imprisonment etc happen so often that you have to take that into account when thinking about your tax?... And I've got news for you buddy, if you are arrested in one of those countries the USA is not going to send in a SEAL team to break you out or send an aircraft carrier as a threat. What do you really think they will do?

Many other countries have navies, coastguards and search and rescue. In civilised countries we rescue people without first asking if they are a taxpayer.


Yeah. It's one of the sadder things about the majority of the population, they go completely off the rails when they think about leaving the cradle of US soil. Mentally, the majority of Americans have a "here be dragons" thing going when they look at distant regions on a globe. I think it's deliberate conditioning in education and entertainment - can't have your herd jumping the fence for greener grass.
 
2013-11-19 09:02:00 PM  

BSABSVR: 560 people?  Why it's a stampede.


Did the Hollywood folks who claimed they were gonna leave the country when bush was president finally liquidate their assets and do as promised?

/thanks a lot Obama
 
2013-11-19 09:04:39 PM  
mr_larry:

The Facebook guy that went to Singapore is smart. Their top tax rate is 20%. The country is awash in cash, with no debt. Their banks are amongst the best capitalized in the world.

They also speak excellent English and bang like firecrackers.

i62.photobucket.com
 
2013-11-19 09:10:56 PM  

Churchill2004: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: When you're in some foreign jail on trumped up political charges, it's good to know the American Embassy's phone number is still connected. Need saving from some pirates, or wrecked your sailboat on the high seas? That U.S. Coast Guard cutter or Navy vessel appears mighty friendly.

This might be news to you, but other countries have embassies and navies, too. Consular services and maritime rescue are hardly some unique privileges of Americans.


And frankly, the US isn't much inclined to look after its foreign nationals.   Including those that are overseas on official business.
 
2013-11-19 09:31:48 PM  
Hasn't anyone figured out the real reason behind this dumb sh*t?
This is not about taxes, since the financial stability needed to pick up and move to another country shows that you can indeed afford to pay comparatively low US taxes.

No, it's the n*****s. Most of the people I know who've made noises about leaving this country and moving elsewhere aren't concerned about the taxes as an abstract concept, but the fact that some of the money they pay for those taxes might go to help people they don't like. Those people are usually tarred (pun intended) with that particular racial epithet, one of many.

If it isn't blacks, it's Mexicans.
If it isn't Mexicans, it's young people.
If it isn't young people, it's unmarried women with kids.
And so on and so on. There's always one group of people who aren't "them" that fuels their ire every time the possibility arises that some of their tax money might be helping anyone in that group.
 
2013-11-19 09:45:08 PM  

rewind2846: Hasn't anyone figured out the real reason behind this dumb sh*t?
This is not about taxes, since the financial stability needed to pick up and move to another country shows that you can indeed afford to pay comparatively low US taxes.

No, it's the n*****s. Most of the people I know who've made noises about leaving this country and moving elsewhere aren't concerned about the taxes as an abstract concept, but the fact that some of the money they pay for those taxes might go to help people they don't like. Those people are usually tarred (pun intended) with that particular racial epithet, one of many.

If it isn't blacks, it's Mexicans.
If it isn't Mexicans, it's young people.
If it isn't young people, it's unmarried women with kids.
And so on and so on. There's always one group of people who aren't "them" that fuels their ire every time the possibility arises that some of their tax money might be helping anyone in that group.



Bull. Farking. shiat.

US resident teabaggers "who've made noises" have nothing to do with Americans living overseas.
 
2013-11-19 09:46:21 PM  
I'm sure you understand more about their personal tax situation than they do, subby, you dumb shiat.
 
2013-11-19 09:46:45 PM  

Adss2009: The US is also one of the few countries that collects taxes on you if you're a citizen living abroad. They're paying taxes twice. Once to their resident country and once to the US. Hence why if you're living abroad you would renounce citizenship: to save that tax money.


As a married filer I got the first hundred k tax free and could claim Japanese taxes as a credit against my US taxes as I recall. Not that I ever had to worry about that second part.

I understand also that if you renounce your citizenship you'd better never spend a month in the US again or it gets reinstated retroactively, along with the taxes owed. Not sure where I read that though.
 
2013-11-19 09:47:32 PM  
Well, looks like I'll need to start saving up my bribe money and schmoozing up to politicians for when the rest of the country goes single-payer with them, and I'm giving "gifts" in "thanks" for medical care.

Just like I'd need to bribe somebody in Chicago to get my kid into the right school:  https://web.archive.org/web/20100325194328/http://www.chicagobreaking n ews.com/2010/03/duncans-staff-kept-list-of-politicians-school-requests .html

America is fundamentally about government owned by the people, not the other way around.

/BTW, was that ever debunked?  It seems to just have disappeared from Google except for the right-wing blogs that were screaming about it.  And I don't trust them to post debunking.
 
2013-11-19 09:48:14 PM  

meyerkev: Well, looks like I'll need to start saving up my bribe money and schmoozing up to politicians for when the rest of the country goes single-payer with them, and I'm giving "gifts" in "thanks" for medical care.

Just like I'd need to bribe somebody in Chicago to get my kid into the right school:  https://web.archive.org/web/20100325194328/http://www.chicagobreaking n ews.com/2010/03/duncans-staff-kept-list-of-politicians-school-requests .html

America is fundamentally about government owned by the people, not the other way around.

/BTW, was that ever debunked?  It seems to just have disappeared from Google except for the right-wing blogs that were screaming about it.  And I don't trust them to post debunking.


Hey, wrong thread.  How fun.
 
2013-11-19 09:53:43 PM  

Dinjiin: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Any tax-motivated renunciation is more about avoiding the bizarrely asinine global taxation of the USA and the even-more-asinine and onerous reporting requirements.

I've read that it requires a very specialized tax accountant to prepare income returns for expats overseas.  It isn't uncommon to pay €500+ for the service.  So it is an expensive PITA.

If you're only making €50,000 or less a year, it just doesn't make sense to keep your citizenship if you don't plan on moving back.


I did my own by hand every year in about an hour. Made around $70k before tax for a married couple filing jointly, no dependents, and paid zero US tax.
 
2013-11-19 09:58:51 PM  

Koodz: Adss2009: The US is also one of the few countries that collects taxes on you if you're a citizen living abroad. They're paying taxes twice. Once to their resident country and once to the US. Hence why if you're living abroad you would renounce citizenship: to save that tax money.

As a married filer I got the first hundred k tax free and could claim Japanese taxes as a credit against my US taxes as I recall. Not that I ever had to worry about that second part.



Theoretically you can be double-taxed but, in practice, treaties and US tax law normally keep that from happening. If you're somehow making a farkton of money in an... unusual location, then it may be a problem.


I understand also that if you renounce your citizenship you'd better never spend a month in the US again or it gets reinstated retroactively, along with the taxes owed. Not sure where I read that though.

Nope.
 
2013-11-19 10:00:46 PM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Koodz: Adss2009: The US is also one of the few countries that collects taxes on you if you're a citizen living abroad. They're paying taxes twice. Once to their resident country and once to the US. Hence why if you're living abroad you would renounce citizenship: to save that tax money.

As a married filer I got the first hundred k tax free and could claim Japanese taxes as a credit against my US taxes as I recall. Not that I ever had to worry about that second part.


Theoretically you can be double-taxed but, in practice, treaties and US tax law normally keep that from happening. If you're somehow making a farkton of money in an... unusual location, then it may be a problem.


I understand also that if you renounce your citizenship you'd better never spend a month in the US again or it gets reinstated retroactively, along with the taxes owed. Not sure where I read that though.

Nope.


So you can renounce, then come back and it's all good? Somehow I can't believe Uncle Sam doesn't kick you in the nuts for that.
 
2013-11-19 10:10:17 PM  

Koodz: So you can renounce, then come back and it's all good? Somehow I can't believe Uncle Sam doesn't kick you in the nuts for that.


So you can renounce, and then have to deal with whatever headaches any other foreigner would have to to come here, maybe a little more.

My cousin-in-law renounced earlier this year and he knows he'll never be able to step foot in the U.S. again.
 
2013-11-19 10:29:45 PM  

MadHatter500: llevrok: So you are doubly taxed, in other words.

No.

You end up being taxed at the higher of the two rates, and if the country you earned the income in happens to have a lower rate, you end up paying that country what it is owed, and the difference to the US.

This is not double taxation.


I use to work/live in Sweden- the tax rate was much higher than the US but it was even harder finding a bank to do business with me. Thankfully my office had a US branch and a stake in a local bank so they were the only game in town. Filing and paying for an accountant to deal with draconian US tax law wasn't cheap either. 1500$ later and I was "compliant" as best I could read it. God help me if I ever get audited. All for the pleasure of paying Swedish taxes. At least the girls were hot.

/Västerås rocks biatches!
 
2013-11-19 10:31:49 PM  

rewind2846: Hasn't anyone figured out the real reason behind this dumb sh*t?
This is not about taxes, since the financial stability needed to pick up and move to another country shows that you can indeed afford to pay comparatively low US taxes.

No, it's the n*****s. Most of the people I know who've made noises about leaving this country and moving elsewhere aren't concerned about the taxes as an abstract concept, but the fact that some of the money they pay for those taxes might go to help people they don't like. Those people are usually tarred (pun intended) with that particular racial epithet, one of many.

If it isn't blacks, it's Mexicans.
If it isn't Mexicans, it's young people.
If it isn't young people, it's unmarried women with kids.
And so on and so on. There's always one group of people who aren't "them" that fuels their ire every time the possibility arises that some of their tax money might be helping anyone in that group.


For me it's the US government and ridiculous military expensditures but hey sure- everyone everywhere is racist, always.

/dumbass
 
2013-11-19 10:33:03 PM  
I'm sure it's been said but no, you are not taxed twice if your country of residence has a tax treaty with the US. That's most countries in the world AFAIK. What happens is that all the tax you pay in your country of residence is deducted from the tax you owe as a US citizen. Since most countries have higher taxes than the US the average person wouldn't owe any US tax. However, filing two returns is a royal pain in the butt, I'm sure. This is one reason why I will never become a US citizen. When I go back to the motherland to retire I would have to file double returns every year or go through the hassle of renouncing citizenship. As a DINK there are no real benefits to becoming a US citizen over being a permanent resident anyways.

I'm surprised that US citizens would actually renounce. This seems like a very, very bad idea to me. You will never be able to come home. That may not seem like a big deal today, but how about in 20 years when all kinds of stuff has changed? Are you really, super 100% positive you would never want to live in the US again? Doubtful.

Disclaimer: I am not a tax attorney and I did not stay at a Best Western last night.
 
2013-11-19 10:39:44 PM  

Cheops: Churchill2004: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: When you're in some foreign jail on trumped up political charges, it's good to know the American Embassy's phone number is still connected. Need saving from some pirates, or wrecked your sailboat on the high seas? That U.S. Coast Guard cutter or Navy vessel appears mighty friendly.

This might be news to you, but other countries have embassies and navies, too. Consular services and maritime rescue are hardly some unique privileges of Americans.

And frankly, the US isn't much inclined to look after its foreign nationals.   Including those that are overseas on official business.


I am dual citizen with Colombia and the US. When I live overseas and work in Colombia I have to pay no US taxes.  Also, when in Colombia I am Colombian so I cannot run to the embassy.

I was there and my mother got sick and I had to return to the states.  My passport was expired, I went to the Embassy, and they expedited me one in 3 days due to US citizenship, they took care of me when they could have denied me.
 
2013-11-19 10:41:10 PM  

llevrok: It's not necessarily about the lowest.

The US is one of the few countries in the world that follows your income.  If you live and work in a foreign country 100%, you pay that country's taxes AND (after an exclusion), US taxes.  So you are doubly taxed, in other words.

On the contrary, a Canadian working in the US (for example) pays NO Canadian taxes.  Only US ones.

The US now also taxes your savings if you are living outside the US and have savings there.  Failure to report has a stiff fine.

Canadians travelling extensively, living or working abroad must still pay Canadian, and provincial or territorial, income taxes. It is important that you know your residency status and the income tax rules that apply to you while you are outside Canada.
Actually, no.
 
2013-11-19 10:41:43 PM  
Ha ha, welcome to globalization.  Your government is now another commodity.  Don't like the ______?  Move to a place where you do.  No one is going to wait a whole generation or 5 for some sort of change.  In fact, I'm willing to bet people will pay extra for a place they are comfortable in.

I think the ultimate fark you would be if China drastically improved their human rights and electoral process and offered everything the US offered but for less money.
 
2013-11-19 10:46:44 PM  

llevrok: It's not necessarily about the lowest.

The US is one of the few countries in the world that follows your income.  If you live and work in a foreign country 100%, you pay that country's taxes AND (after an exclusion), US taxes.  So you are doubly taxed, in other words.


Unless you are some sort of fortune 500 company, then they get confused.  It's not like they have much to gain in taxes from these companies anyway.
 
2013-11-19 10:59:05 PM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: US resident teabaggers "who've made noises" have nothing to do with Americans living overseas.


The ones who have made noises stay.
The ones who have done more than make noise leave.
Who's to say that they don't believe the same thing?
Plenty of people leave due to other factors, but only a certain percentage leave due to "THE TAXXESSSSSS!!!"
Those are the ones who are the focus of the article.
 
2013-11-19 11:06:06 PM  

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: For me it's the US government and ridiculous military expensditures but hey sure- everyone everywhere is racist, always.


Yes. Yes they are. Drop into your local anti-tax rally sometime. Plenty of them around election day, and they advertise.

 
2013-11-19 11:24:50 PM  

rewind2846: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: US resident teabaggers "who've made noises" have nothing to do with Americans living overseas.

The ones who have made noises stay.
The ones who have done more than make noise leave.
Who's to say that they don't believe the same thing?
Plenty of people leave due to other factors, but only a certain percentage leave due to "THE TAXXESSSSSS!!!"
Those are the ones who are the focus of the article.


Plenty of people leave or move around for many reasons.   But The US is one of very few countries which still taxes citizens who live abroad.  There are a lot of business-friendly jurisdictions with lower taxes, yet only americans get penalized with a top-up.   Hence there's an incentive for an american who already is comfortably living abroad, to renounce his citizenship and be treated the same as his peers where he lives.
 
2013-11-19 11:27:46 PM  

rewind2846: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: US resident teabaggers "who've made noises" have nothing to do with Americans living overseas.

The ones who have made noises stay.
The ones who have done more than make noise leave.
Who's to say that they don't believe the same thing?
Plenty of people leave due to other factors, but only a certain percentage leave due to "THE TAXXESSSSSS!!!"
Those are the ones who are the focus of the article.



"Who's to say"

Well, certainly not you. You sound like you might have never even talked to an American expat, let alone been one. I have no idea why you are so eager to tar them all as racists (etc) when you obviously know jackshiat about them.

"Those are the ones who are the focus of the article"

TFA is focused on a group whose motives and situations the clueless author is wildly speculating about, same as you are.

/yes, the tea baggers have most recently been *talking* about leaving because of the scary blah guy, before that it was the pinko commie libs who wanted to escape Bush's Murika
 
2013-11-19 11:31:40 PM  

llevrok: It's not necessarily about the lowest.

The US is one of the few countries in the world that follows your income.  If you live and work in a foreign country 100%, you pay that country's taxes AND (after an exclusion), US taxes.  So you are doubly taxed, in other words.

On the contrary, a Canadian working in the US (for example) pays NO Canadian taxes.  Only US ones.

The US now also taxes your savings if you are living outside the US and have savings there.  Failure to report has a stiff fine.


THIS.
 
2013-11-19 11:38:52 PM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Theoretically you can be double-taxed but, in practice, treaties and US tax law normally keep that from happening. If you're somehow making a farkton of money in an... unusual location, then it may be a problem.


I'm in the process of moving (at least semi-permanently,) to Japan. From my research, you have to file a 1040 long form, but as long as you stay under a certain amount (I think it's around 96k/yr right now, without looking,) you don't have to pay US taxes.

I ran some quick numbers on what would come out of my paycheck. If I made roughly 80k USD a year, I'd net about 62k USD. Taxes taken out include a pension and such as well as healthcare, though. Japanese healthcare system is 70%-30% meaning they cover 70% of the bill, you 30%. There are other insurances to cover the gap and some stuff covered free, but I haven't really dove into that bit yet. Mind, this is just research and talking to other expats; IANAL.
 
2013-11-19 11:44:18 PM  

theflatline: llevrok: It's not necessarily about the lowest.

The US is one of the few countries in the world that follows your income.  If you live and work in a foreign country 100%, you pay that country's taxes AND (after an exclusion), US taxes.  So you are doubly taxed, in other words.

On the contrary, a Canadian working in the US (for example) pays NO Canadian taxes.  Only US ones.

The US now also taxes your savings if you are living outside the US and have savings there.  Failure to report has a stiff fine.
Canadians travelling extensively, living or working abroad must still pay Canadian, and provincial or territorial, income taxes. It is important that you know your residency status and the income tax rules that apply to you while you are outside Canada.
Actually, no.


Actually, yes. If you read the Canadian rules it is clear that if you live and work abroad full time you do not have to file a return or pay any tax unless you have income from Canada, like shares, selling Canadian property, rent from Canadian property etc.
If you leave Canada to live elsewhere you can just stop filing in Canada. If you ever return you just start filing and paying again.
The US demands you file every year, even if you left the US as a baby and have never set foot on US soil and are now fifty, you must file, declare all your savings, bank accounts etc, year after year, until you die or renounce your citizenship.
Totally different from Canada.
 
2013-11-19 11:46:51 PM  

Flint Ironstag: theflatline: llevrok: It's not necessarily about the lowest.

The US is one of the few countries in the world that follows your income.  If you live and work in a foreign country 100%, you pay that country's taxes AND (after an exclusion), US taxes.  So you are doubly taxed, in other words.

On the contrary, a Canadian working in the US (for example) pays NO Canadian taxes.  Only US ones.

The US now also taxes your savings if you are living outside the US and have savings there.  Failure to report has a stiff fine.
Canadians travelling extensively, living or working abroad must still pay Canadian, and provincial or territorial, income taxes. It is important that you know your residency status and the income tax rules that apply to you while you are outside Canada.
Actually, no.

Actually, yes. If you read the Canadian rules it is clear that if you live and work abroad full time you do not have to file a return or pay any tax unless you have income from Canada, like shares, selling Canadian property, rent from Canadian property etc.
If you leave Canada to live elsewhere you can just stop filing in Canada. If you ever return you just start filing and paying again.
The US demands you file every year, even if you left the US as a baby and have never set foot on US soil and are now fifty, you must file, declare all your savings, bank accounts etc, year after year, until you die or renounce your citizenship.
Totally different from Canada.


As a dual citizen, even talked to the IRS, never had to file when living out the country.
 
2013-11-19 11:54:31 PM  

theflatline: Flint Ironstag: theflatline: llevrok: It's not necessarily about the lowest.

The US is one of the few countries in the world that follows your income.  If you live and work in a foreign country 100%, you pay that country's taxes AND (after an exclusion), US taxes.  So you are doubly taxed, in other words.

On the contrary, a Canadian working in the US (for example) pays NO Canadian taxes.  Only US ones.

The US now also taxes your savings if you are living outside the US and have savings there.  Failure to report has a stiff fine.
Canadians travelling extensively, living or working abroad must still pay Canadian, and provincial or territorial, income taxes. It is important that you know your residency status and the income tax rules that apply to you while you are outside Canada.
Actually, no.

Actually, yes. If you read the Canadian rules it is clear that if you live and work abroad full time you do not have to file a return or pay any tax unless you have income from Canada, like shares, selling Canadian property, rent from Canadian property etc.
If you leave Canada to live elsewhere you can just stop filing in Canada. If you ever return you just start filing and paying again.
The US demands you file every year, even if you left the US as a baby and have never set foot on US soil and are now fifty, you must file, declare all your savings, bank accounts etc, year after year, until you die or renounce your citizenship.
Totally different from Canada.

As a dual citizen, even talked to the IRS, never had to file when living out the country.



"If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside." - IRS

Not everyone has to file an income tax return in the first place. But if you do have to, you don't get out of it by moving overseas. (You do, however, get to file way more bullshiat paperwork in addition to any return.)
 
2013-11-19 11:57:50 PM  

theflatline: As a dual citizen, even talked to the IRS, never had to file when living out the country.


That is contrary to everything I've read about US taxes, including the IRS website itself. If that was true then why are these people renouncing their citizenship? What is the point?
 
2013-11-20 12:29:37 AM  
There is something else at work here, but before I get to that: Most people renouncing their citizenship have been expats for years, if not decades. The number of people actually moving away and renouncing their citizenship's is very low.

In the last year or two, the U.S. government passed the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA). This short sighted piece of legislation aims at putting burdens on foreign financial firms to produce onerous records on U.S. citizens living abroad. Because the U.S. has traditionally been the clearing house for international financial transactions, the politicians thought this would gain wide acceptance. They could not be more wrong!

The foreign financial institutions are building a new network to clear international transactions without having to rely upon the U.S.
Another unintended consequence is that these foreign financial companies are shutting down the accounts of Americans.

So, If you have been an expat for ten years and all of a sudden your local bank or local brokerage firm says they are going to close your account because you are an American, you pretty much have just reached your tipping point. Time to give up the U.S. passport!
 
2013-11-20 12:39:37 AM  
It's funny how people say the USA is so low taxed by using stupid ways of measurement like percentage of GNP and such. Or when they use just federal income tax.... the USA is a country where taxes are nickled and dimed everywhere. And then there is the never accounted for inflation tax from all the money printing. FICA and such hide half the tax bite as 'employer contributions' even. Taxes are hidden away in the products we buy too. The true extent of how much we are taxed is quite well hidden to most americans that pay. If they sat down and added it all up there might be a revolution by Tuesday... although with the large numbers of people dependent on government checks and government jobs that revolution would probably fail by Wednesday.

The productive class in the USA, the middle class people who are taxed, those who make between roughly 55K and 250K, pay way more than 15% in taxes. More like 45-50% or more depending on where in the country they live.

It would probably be best to calculate how much we are taxed by how many lifetimes of earnings government consumes each year. Borrowing is just spending tomorrows productivity today. Recently I read an article that did so just for the federal government. The feds alone consumed the lifetime earnings of over two million americans in just one year alone. With all the other layers of government we are easily looking at 3 million people's life time earnings every year, probably more.
 
2013-11-20 12:40:32 AM  
Good. Now let's pass some laws to prevent lobbying from ex-/non-citizens, and we'll be in good shape.
 
2013-11-20 12:45:56 AM  

mr_larry: So, If you have been an expat for ten years and all of a sudden your local bank or local brokerage firm says they are going to close your account because you are an American, you pretty much have just reached your tipping point. Time to give up the U.S. passport!


That. Foreign banks chose simply prefer to no longer to have US citizens as customers rather than deal with the US government's control freak snooping and worse. For people who never intend to live in the USA again it is probably a lot less hassle just to give up US citizenship given this, the IRS, and who knows what other hassles.

Of course for the feds, having foreign banks refuse to do business with US citizens means better trapping our wealth where they can get at it.
 
2013-11-20 01:36:18 AM  
Americans pay a ridiculously high tax rate; the average is around 54%.
http://www.nowandfutures.com/taxes.html
 
2013-11-20 01:41:56 AM  

Old enough to know better: [i677.photobucket.com image 420x294]


They're already out.  Some have been 'out' for decades.
 
2013-11-20 02:08:21 AM  
This was a fairly informed and civilized discussion, by FARK standards. If you happened to enjoy my enlightened postings on the subject matter, you should check out the site where I obtained my knowledge. Looking at the U.S. from the outside can be beneficial.
http://www.sovereignman.com/
Sign up for the daily emails. Very insightful and you might just see the disaster headed our way.
 
2013-11-20 02:27:57 AM  

angstycoder: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Theoretically you can be double-taxed but, in practice, treaties and US tax law normally keep that from happening. If you're somehow making a farkton of money in an... unusual location, then it may be a problem.

I'm in the process of moving (at least semi-permanently,) to Japan. From my research, you have to file a 1040 long form, but as long as you stay under a certain amount (I think it's around 96k/yr right now, without looking,) you don't have to pay US taxes.

I ran some quick numbers on what would come out of my paycheck. If I made roughly 80k USD a year, I'd net about 62k USD. Taxes taken out include a pension and such as well as healthcare, though. Japanese healthcare system is 70%-30% meaning they cover 70% of the bill, you 30%. There are other insurances to cover the gap and some stuff covered free, but I haven't really dove into that bit yet. Mind, this is just research and talking to other expats; IANAL.


My wife is now a Landed Imm in Canada, and had worked in Japan for ~15 years prior, and paid into that pension.  Apparently it's money that's just dumped back into General Revenue, and the pension is very poor.  First off, you need to contrib for cumulative 20 years to collect any pension at all.  I checked into her paying the missing few years, and was told by other Japanese not to bother, it wouldn't be worth it.  The return would be so poor, it would be a wasted investment. Her mother has had her pension downsized recently, apparently the gov felt she didn't need that much any more.

Enjoy the experience, though, it's certainly been my favourite place to visit.
   mmmMMM Kyoto!

(Health care: Not aware of that 70:30 thing)
 
2013-11-20 06:46:18 AM  

rewind2846: Hasn't anyone figured out the real reason behind this dumb sh*t?
This is not about taxes, since the financial stability needed to pick up and move to another country shows that you can indeed afford to pay comparatively low US taxes.

No, it's the n*****s. Most of the people I know who've made noises about leaving this country and moving elsewhere aren't concerned about the taxes as an abstract concept, but the fact that some of the money they pay for those taxes might go to help people they don't like. Those people are usually tarred (pun intended) with that particular racial epithet, one of many.

If it isn't blacks, it's Mexicans.
If it isn't Mexicans, it's young people.
If it isn't young people, it's unmarried women with kids.
And so on and so on. There's always one group of people who aren't "them" that fuels their ire every time the possibility arises that some of their tax money might be helping anyone in that group.


This is about as far from the truth as possible. Have you ever left a 1000 m radius of where you were born, or did you lose half of your brain in childhood?
 
2013-11-20 10:29:47 AM  

proteus_b: This is about as far from the truth as possible. Have you ever left a 1000 m radius of where you were born, or did you lose half of your brain in childhood?


I've visited or done business in 22 countries in Europe, Asia and the middle east with the military, Canada, Mexico, Puerto Rico, The Virgin Islands, Cuba (GITMO) and 24 states. Been there, done that.
Next extremely stupid question? Maybe you can use the half of your brain that's left to formulate it.
 
2013-11-20 12:52:29 PM  

sprgrss: misleading headline and article is misleading.

Those expats are paying taxes in America and the country they currently reside.  By renouncing US citizenship, they only pay the taxes of the country of residence and not also the US.


I would also like to add that the US is the only country that taxes citizen's outside income.

It's under the guise of fighting off-shore accounts but it ends of farking with your average expats (like me). I'd rather not have my farking Canadian retirement accounts taxed as regular investments so everything is going to have to go in my Husband's name like it's the 1950's.

I don't live in the US anymore, I don't use any services, and I would pay a fee every year to fund our embassies.
 
2013-11-20 01:08:53 PM  
Record numbers of Americans are renouncing their U.S. citizenship this year, to dodge U.S. taxes, apparently unaware that U.S. tax rates are almost the lowest in the developed world

Why are so many people convinced by right-wing propaganda when it's so full of shiat?
 
2013-11-20 01:22:11 PM  
BMFPitt:

My cousin-in-law renounced earlier this year and he knows he'll never be able to step foot in the U.S. again.

The guy can't get a tourist visa?  Foreigners visit the US all the time without issue.
 
2013-11-20 01:55:17 PM  

theflatline: llevrok: It's not necessarily about the lowest.

The US is one of the few countries in the world that follows your income.  If you live and work in a foreign country 100%, you pay that country's taxes AND (after an exclusion), US taxes.  So you are doubly taxed, in other words.

On the contrary, a Canadian working in the US (for example) pays NO Canadian taxes.  Only US ones.

The US now also taxes your savings if you are living outside the US and have savings there.  Failure to report has a stiff fine.
Canadians travelling extensively, living or working abroad must still pay Canadian, and provincial or territorial, income taxes. It is important that you know your residency status and the income tax rules that apply to you while you are outside Canada.
Actually, no.


Just like in the US, it depends how long you stay in your home country to be considered a "resident".

If you spend half the year living in one country and the other half in Canada, there could be some tax implications. Also, if a Canadian company sent you to work in another country but is paying you as if you still lived in Canada, you will have to pay tax.

If you are living in another country full-time it doesn't count unless you have Canadian investments.
 
2013-11-20 02:00:24 PM  

Makh: Ha ha, welcome to globalization.  Your government is now another commodity.  Don't like the ______?  Move to a place where you do.  No one is going to wait a whole generation or 5 for some sort of change.  In fact, I'm willing to bet people will pay extra for a place they are comfortable in.

I think the ultimate fark you would be if China drastically improved their human rights and electoral process and offered everything the US offered but for less money.


The funny thing is farking China allows for paid mat leave, it's up to 3 months I think.

The US? Still 0 paid, only 6 weeks unpaid.
 
2013-11-20 03:13:15 PM  

TwistedFark: This has absolutely nothing to do with paying taxes.

I live overseas (I am a citizen of both the US and Australia). I pay taxes in Australia as my "tax home" as per US law and I file every year with Uncle Sam. My tax bill to the US government is always zero dollars. Why? Simple: Because I already pay more tax here in Australia than the US government would take.

It's not paying taxes that is a problem for people, because the tax burden isn't actually there - it's the legal requirements for filing.

In a nutshell, they've made it so difficult that you need to engage an expensive accountant just to do personal income tax filing and god help you if you own a business overseas, you're looking at having to lawyer up every year around tax time.

So yeah, I am thinking of handing in my passport, not because of the tax burden, but because they have made it such a pain in the ass. For other people, they 2-4k a year they have to spend on accountants otherwise is just too much cost for them to bear and it makes sense for them to basically wash their hands of the US, otherwise they have to not file (and break the law) or not eat.

Not everyone who lives overseas is super rich - most people I know who are ex-pats hold down normal jobs, or are school teachers.


This is is exactly my problem.  I pay a CPA in the states and a Steuerberater here in D'land -- I'm a long way from rich, but the paperwork is extreme.  Just one acronymn makes me tremble: FATCA.

Handing in my passport?  I'm far too sentimental about that; but I can't just go home:  Forgetting about  Eigenheim, kind und Karriere, the health care is good here; at home I'm afraid (without any implied judgement on the merits/demerits of ACA) this would mean the death penalty for me. While I'm too old to rock & roll, I'm still too young to die.
 
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