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(Slate)   America's finest colleges continue to be veteran-free zones, with one Ivy League president saying veterans just don't measure up compared to our future leaders like Worthington Montgomery Bush-Clinton-Bush-Kennedy IV   (slate.com) divider line 256
    More: Obvious, Ivy League, Ivy League presidents, Williams College, colleges, Swarthmore College  
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7487 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Nov 2013 at 1:54 PM (43 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-19 09:33:58 AM
People with options don't go into the army. Film at 11.
 
2013-11-19 09:37:49 AM

gaslight: People with options don't go into the army. Film at 11.


came here to say this.

with a volunteer army, many of those who enlist aren't exactly the harvard or yale type.
 
2013-11-19 09:42:35 AM
Conversely, there aren't many ivy leaguers charging into military battles - swinging their polo mallets & threatening to black-ball the enemy from their country clubs either.
 
2013-11-19 09:45:00 AM
Also, when you have a sergeant who beats everything out of you except "no sir" and "yes sir", you cease to be able to think outside of the box.  Thinking outside of the box is bad for grunts in the military, and necessary for college.
 
2013-11-19 09:45:21 AM

FlashHarry: gaslight: People with options don't go into the army. Film at 11.

came here to say this.

with a volunteer army, many of those who enlist aren't exactly the harvard or yale type.


Which is why the whole Community College system exists these days - to take in GI Bill benefits and not be too picky about who gets in or whether they can read.
 
2013-11-19 09:48:40 AM
These educational institutions are regarded, unfortunately, as leaders in education and society.

They are not showing that leadership now. I don't feel they have been showing that sort of leadership for quite some time.

And it isn't just about veterans. Although now that this has been pointed out to them repeatedly it would be a good opportunity to demonstrate leadership.

Back in they day (planet still cooling, dinosaurs ruled the Earth) veterans used to receive credit for their service experience during the application process in at least some of these schools.

And no small amount of the faculty were vets as well. I bet that isn't the case anymore either.
 
2013-11-19 09:51:57 AM
Bush I and Kennedy were vets.
 
2013-11-19 10:00:32 AM

Lookeelookee: And no small amount of the faculty were vets as well.


Back in that day, no small amount of any workforce were vets.
 
2013-11-19 10:42:43 AM
If veterans want respect, then we need to bring back the draft. Otherwise, yeah, we'll all clap at the Veteran's Day parade, we'll tell you how brave you are and how proud we are, and then we'll go home and tell our children to work hard in school so they don't have to join the farking army like some loser.
Veterans will not be respected by the wealthy and educated as long as the vast bulk of them come from the poor and ignorant.
 
2013-11-19 10:46:43 AM
Does this include grad school? Because I assume it would be much higher.

The enlisted folks aren't going to get into the schools they are talking about. If they could have, they most likely wouldn't have enlisted. These schools have excellent financial aid programs, so money wouldn't be a factor.

The other reason for these low numbers is because most of these people probably don't want to go to a traditional four year school with a bunch of 18 year olds.

I'm not letting Harvard off the hook here, but let's be clear: John Kennedy and George Bush aren't enlisting in the army.
 
2013-11-19 10:51:55 AM

James!: Bush I and Kennedy were vets.


In the era of the draft?
 
2013-11-19 10:52:00 AM

rumpelstiltskin: Veterans will not be respected by the wealthy and educated as long as the vast bulk of them come from the poor and ignorant.


The rich and privileged will be officers and the poor and ignorant won't be and we'll have the same exact social lines we've always had.
 
2013-11-19 10:57:48 AM

James!: Bush I and Kennedy were vets.


This would be more about the layabout offspring getting ahead by trading on the family name and fortune, as opposed to the no-name veteran who can't get into Yale despite being qualified.
 
2013-11-19 11:08:27 AM
The Post 9/11 G.I. Bill covers 100% of in-state, public school tuition.  It's capped for private schools.  Vets aren't going to expensive private schools, because the whole farking point of enlisting to go to college is to NOT have a shiatload of debt when you graduate.
 
2013-11-19 11:14:11 AM

Sgt Otter: The Post 9/11 G.I. Bill covers 100% of in-state, public school tuition.  It's capped for private schools.  Vets aren't going to expensive private schools, because the whole farking point of enlisting to go to college is to NOT have a shiatload of debt when you graduate.


the third point, which I forgot.

Ironically, I wrote the above post while on the phone with the VA, trying desperately to certify a Veteran as one of my students, but running up against the the online system- VAONCE- the finest website 1996 technology can devise.

This thing makes the ACA website look like google.
 
2013-11-19 11:24:04 AM
We have failed our veterans in a lot of ways. I'm just not sure this is one of them.
 
2013-11-19 12:11:21 PM
Another big reason, completely overlooked here, is the geographic distribution of military accessions and the locations of Ivy League schools.  Most vets want to go "home" when they're out of the military and "home" usually isn't the northeast.

/just sayin'
 
2013-11-19 12:23:24 PM
I remember being told that as a submarine sonar tech, I was in the top 5% of the Navy. If that was the top 5%, I see no reason to think this is the fault of Ivy League schools.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-11-19 12:24:00 PM

Lookeelookee: Back in they day (planet still cooling, dinosaurs ruled the Earth) veterans used to receive credit for their service experience during the application process in at least some of these schools.

And no small amount of the faculty were vets as well. I bet that isn't the case anymore either.


So affirmative action then?
 
2013-11-19 12:39:11 PM
Did I miss somewhere in the article where there was an actual explanation for this? For me, the explanation seems pretty obvious - the universe of people who willingly join the armed forces and the number of people who go to top universities are simply very, very different people. And I say this as someone who's best friend went to Harvard and UC Berkeley and is a captain in the Marine Corps. He's unusual.
 
2013-11-19 01:12:42 PM

mediablitz: I remember being told that as a submarine sonar tech, I was in the top 5% of the Navy. If that was the top 5%, I see no reason to think this is the fault of Ivy League schools.


They were confused and thought you said "Nuke ET."  ;-)

DamnYankees: Did I miss somewhere in the article where there was an actual explanation for this? For me, the explanation seems pretty obvious - the universe of people who willingly join the armed forces and the number of people who go to top universities are simply very, very different people. And I say this as someone who's best friend went to Harvard and UC Berkeley and is a captain in the Marine Corps. He's unusual.


They did make it clear that they aren't recruiting veterans, but they didn't provide much data on the applied v. accepted, accepted v. attended, attended v. graduated data.  This piece is somewhat investigative but highly editorialized.
 
2013-11-19 01:13:30 PM

Sgt Otter: The Post 9/11 G.I. Bill covers 100% of in-state, public school tuition.  It's capped for private schools.  Vets aren't going to expensive private schools, because the whole farking point of enlisting to go to college is to NOT have a shiatload of debt when you graduate.


Very few people at an Ivy League school are paying the sticker price, and almost all of those are legacy kids whose parents have lots of money they're willing to throw at the university to get the kid a piece of paper.
 
2013-11-19 01:18:56 PM
When it comes to problems facing former military personnel, I'm a tad more concerned with homelessness, substance abuse, suicides, and untreated mental illness than I am with their representation in the Ivy League.
 
2013-11-19 01:21:51 PM
Does this really surprise anyone?

We've been at war for 2 dozen years. The army has been busy training enlisted men for cannon fodder duty, not equipping them with college type skills.
 
2013-11-19 01:22:45 PM
er.. make that 2 wars for a dozen years.. my PTSD makes me afraid of the Preview button.
 
2013-11-19 01:23:25 PM

factoryconnection: They did make it clear that they aren't recruiting veterans, but they didn't provide much data on the applied v. accepted, accepted v. attended, attended v. graduated data.  This piece is somewhat investigative but highly editorialized.


Exactly this. It would be useful to see the breakdown of those numbers so we can see at what point in the application process veterans become underrepresented.
 
2013-11-19 01:24:29 PM

Cagey B: When it comes to problems facing former military personnel, I'm a tad more concerned with homelessness, substance abuse, suicides, and untreated mental illness than I am with their representation in the Ivy League.


graduating from an ivy league college would probably make most of those other problems a lot less likely.
 
2013-11-19 01:25:38 PM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Very few people at an Ivy League school are paying the sticker price, and almost all of those are legacy kids whose parents have lots of money they're willing to throw at the university to get the kid a piece of paper.


This is false. Do some googling. Legacy admissions at Ivy League schools are only around 10-15% of the total, and obviously less if you only count "undeserving legacy" students.
 
2013-11-19 01:25:42 PM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Very few people at an Ivy League school are paying the sticker price, and almost all of those are legacy kids whose parents have lots of money they're willing to throw at the university to get the kid a piece of paper.


Indeed.  Harvard, the most well-endowed of the lot, breaks it down like this.  70% receive some financial aid and 20% pay no tuition, with a goal of 100% graduating debt-free.  Now: do people know this when they're thinking of where to take their GI bill and big brains?  Who knows?
 
2013-11-19 01:29:43 PM
Hey,  gotta leave room for the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, etc. who pay full price.
 
2013-11-19 01:48:20 PM

rumpelstiltskin: If veterans want respect, then we need to bring back the draft. Otherwise, yeah, we'll all clap at the Veteran's Day parade, we'll tell you how brave you are and how proud we are, and then we'll go home and tell our children to work hard in school so they don't have to join the farking army like some loser.
Veterans will not be respected by the wealthy and educated as long as the vast bulk of them come from the poor and ignorant.


Only the (mentally) poor and ignorant thinks that the vast bulk of military and Air Force recruits are poor and ignorant:

http://nationalpriorities.org/analysis/2011/military-recruitment-201 0/

In fact, the very poorest are underrepresented,

The average military recruit is actually white and middle class, with a high school diploma and "above average" (as measured by the AFQT).
 
2013-11-19 01:52:15 PM

Cagey B: When it comes to problems facing former military personnel, I'm a tad more concerned with homelessness, substance abuse, suicides, and untreated mental illness than I am with their representation in the Ivy League.


That's kind of a stupid way to look at it, because a well-educated veteran is less likely to end up homeless, commit suicide, abuse drugs and alcohol, or have an untreated mental illness.

It's like you want to treat the symptoms instead of the underlying causes.  "Here, have an aspirin, that'll reduce the fever.  What?  Bacterial infection?  Antibiotics?  I'm more concerned about the fever".
 
2013-11-19 01:57:14 PM
Thomas "Tommy Bottle Service, 4 Gucci watches on my wrist, b*tch" Rockefeller-Smith III, approves of this headline.
 
2013-11-19 01:57:28 PM
Don't people go to Ivy-League schools to avoid military service?
 
2013-11-19 01:59:06 PM
This just in: Tuition may be a factor.
 
2013-11-19 01:59:35 PM
Stop putting these jag offs on a pedestal. Fark the troops.
 
2013-11-19 02:00:26 PM

FlashHarry: gaslight: People with options don't go into the army. Film at 11.

came here to say this.

with a volunteer army, many of those who enlist aren't exactly the harvard or yale type.


When we had a conscript army, the Harvard or Yale type typically didn't enlist either. . .they got student deferments or other ways out.
 
2013-11-19 02:00:57 PM
High dropout rates certainly don't help the situation very much.
 
2013-11-19 02:01:17 PM

Sgt Otter: The Post 9/11 G.I. Bill covers 100% of in-state, public school tuition.  It's capped for private schools.  Vets aren't going to expensive private schools, because the whole farking point of enlisting to go to college is to NOT have a shiatload of debt when you graduate.


This. Most vets attend state schools after they separate or they complete degrees online while still serving. I know one who went to Essex Univ. in the UK but that's very rare.
 
2013-11-19 02:01:51 PM

TEA-PARTY-PATRIOT: Stop putting these jag offs on a pedestal. Fark the troops.


You're fark handle with this post is amazing.
 
2013-11-19 02:01:55 PM

dittybopper: That's kind of a stupid way to look at it, because a well-educated veteran is less likely to end up homeless, commit suicide, abuse drugs and alcohol, or have an untreated mental illness.


You realize that getting into a top university, even with assistance, is extremely difficult with the problems that lead to those things, to say nothing of completing a four-year education, right? Of course you don't, because you're a f*ckwit. "Hey crazy homeless guy, just go to college!"

dittybopper: It's like you want to treat the symptoms instead of the underlying causes. "Here, have an aspirin, that'll reduce the fever. What? Bacterial infection? Antibiotics? I'm more concerned about the fever".


Hey look, a disingenuous conservative who talks about treating societal ills for the three seconds he cares about it because of an internet argument. The systemic problem of lack of educational opportunity is one that I doubt very much you give a shiat about, except as an opportunity for vouchers and Tax Cutz™, and so we're left with the more immediate problem of a population that experiences mental illness at a much greater rate while being underserved.
 
2013-11-19 02:02:40 PM

dittybopper: rumpelstiltskin: If veterans want respect, then we need to bring back the draft. Otherwise, yeah, we'll all clap at the Veteran's Day parade, we'll tell you how brave you are and how proud we are, and then we'll go home and tell our children to work hard in school so they don't have to join the farking army like some loser.
Veterans will not be respected by the wealthy and educated as long as the vast bulk of them come from the poor and ignorant.

Only the (mentally) poor and ignorant thinks that the vast bulk of military and Air Force recruits are poor and ignorant:

http://nationalpriorities.org/analysis/2011/military-recruitment-201 0/

In fact, the very poorest are underrepresented,

The average military recruit is actually white and middle class, with a high school diploma and "above average" (as measured by the AFQT).


Isn't the AFQT a biased measure? Stating that the military accepts recruits above the average among people who apply for the military doesn't necessarily imply that the accepted recruits are above average in the general population.

I'm guessing that military recruits tend to come from the middle of the distribution instead from the extremes. People didn't graduate from high school can't get in, and people who get into college with a large handful of AP credits want to do other things.
 
2013-11-19 02:03:24 PM

TEA-PARTY-PATRIOT: Stop putting these jag offs on a pedestal. Fark the troops.


www.joncouture.com
 
2013-11-19 02:03:43 PM

verbaltoxin: Sgt Otter: The Post 9/11 G.I. Bill covers 100% of in-state, public school tuition.  It's capped for private schools.  Vets aren't going to expensive private schools, because the whole farking point of enlisting to go to college is to NOT have a shiatload of debt when you graduate.

This. Most vets attend state schools after they separate or they complete degrees online while still serving. I know one who went to Essex Univ. in the UK but that's very rare.


My SysAdmin got his degree from the University of Maryland while serving in England. He's never actually set foot in their campus.
 
2013-11-19 02:04:01 PM
Subby said Bush twice
 
2013-11-19 02:04:06 PM

Gecko Gingrich: Lookeelookee: And no small amount of the faculty were vets as well.

Back in that day, no small amount of any workforce were vets.


Especially at animal hospitals.
 
2013-11-19 02:05:55 PM

reillan: Also, when you have a sergeant who beats everything out of you except "no sir" and "yes sir", you cease to be able to think outside of the box.  Thinking outside of the box is bad for grunts in the military, and necessary for college.


Flipside:

Vets - even ex-enslisted - are quite capable of creativity and problem-solving. I've met plenty where I've gone to school. (Although no, I'm not former or current military myself.)

However, anybody who's spent any length of time making junior enlisted pay is acutely aware of the value of a dollar, and will seek out affordable options for school. Yale is not that. Big 10 Universities are not that. Universities out of state are generally not that either.

Trade Schools? Yes. Community Colleges? Yes. Second-tier state universities with large commuting populations? Absolutely.

Additionally, you forget how full of shiat most college students are. The drama and BS of a traditional dorm-heavy 4-year Big State U isn't really enticing to somebody who's been on their own for a while and got that out of their system, vet or not.
 
2013-11-19 02:06:01 PM
You know, being in an Ivy League School isn't the be-all, end-all measurement of success.
 
2013-11-19 02:06:43 PM
1.  Bacevich is an eloquent critic of all of us-we, the people-for letting 1 percent of the population bear the nation's military burden-fighting, deaths, and wounds.

First Bacevich can suck my dick.  If I actually thought that the bulk of military action in my lifetime had anything to do with protecting my freedom or rights he might have a point.  Sorry, but I don't want to protect the wealth and assets of rich dudes at risk of my life.

2.  Who gives a fark if only a small number of veterans get in to the Ivy league, so do a small number of people from any demographic.
 
2013-11-19 02:07:33 PM
I should point out that some private universities offer things like discounts for veterans. Creighton Univ. in Omaha was offering 50% off per credit hour costs to vets. It's still pretty steep but not as steep. There's also some other veterans' tuition program some private colleges use but I forget the name.

As far as upper deck elite schools, I haven't a clue.
 
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