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(Escapist Magazine)   "Theme Park MMOs are dead", says expert with a dead MMO   (escapistmagazine.com) divider line 113
    More: Obvious, Richard Garriot, MMO, Ultima Online, Shroud of the Avatar, MMORPG, Lord British  
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4788 clicks; posted to Geek » on 19 Nov 2013 at 7:18 AM (48 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-19 07:31:00 AM  
Not what the article is talking about, but I'm posting this anyways

oi43.tinypic.com
 
2013-11-19 07:33:46 AM  
Why is anyone playing anything other than FFXIV?
 
2013-11-19 07:42:08 AM  
So.... honest injun, not trolling, just old:

What is a theme park MMO?  Why are they dead?  Why does this matter?

Tried to read TFA but it was the Yahoo Serious Film Festival.
 
2013-11-19 07:52:59 AM  

DanInKansas: So.... honest injun, not trolling, just old:

What is a theme park MMO?  Why are they dead?  Why does this matter?

Tried to read TFA but it was the Yahoo Serious Film Festival.


Theme park is a "series of rides" - usually quest/mission lines that force a player through stories on rails. There may be minor differences between factions/races/classes, but generally if you play through an area, you'll find the same quest & story lines.

They're not dead. Everyone's gunning to take out WoW because its the biggest kid on the block.

To be very honest, whether or not the theme park mmo is dead does not matter one bit - the market is easily large enough to support multiple mmos being successful in multiple genres with multiple styles. The key is companies understanding that they're not going to compete with WoW.
 
2013-11-19 07:55:36 AM  
Kristoph57: to compete with WoW.

Sorry, I should rephrase - they're not going to compete with WoW at it's pinnacle. The base has been on a decline for a while, but its still an order of magnitude above what most companies should expect.
 
2013-11-19 07:56:04 AM  

Frank N Stein: Not what the article is talking about, but I'm posting this anyways

[oi43.tinypic.com image 850x637]


homoghey Agenda!
 
2013-11-19 08:03:44 AM  

Frank N Stein: Not what the article is talking about, but I'm posting this anyways

[oi43.tinypic.com image 850x637]


Good name for that coaster.
 
2013-11-19 08:16:09 AM  

Kristoph57: Kristoph57: to compete with WoW.

Sorry, I should rephrase - they're not going to compete with WoW at it's pinnacle. The base has been on a decline for a while, but its still an order of magnitude above what most companies should expect.


been clean from WoW for several years -- cataclysm killed my addiction.

Was easily able to resist the pandaland expansion

Heard the upcoming expansion is back to outland, and burning crusade wow was best wow.... but I'll be able to stay clean I'm certain
 
2013-11-19 08:21:50 AM  
I think Señor British is assuming the market wants the same thing he does. Sure, there are lots of players who would want a sandbox MMO, with no hand holding, with players driving both the economy and the progress of the storyline. The reason why WoW became so popular was because people  didn't want that. Most early MMOs were sink-or-swim, essentially sanbox games as they lacked any guiding direction for players.

Maybe the faltering of WoW's numbers is a sign that players might be ready for a more polished version of that, but I rather doubt it.  There are players who would be interested in that kind of game, but it's a smaller market and a game that is going to access it would have to live at a much thinner margin that WoW.  Not something I think is going to work out well for a big studio.
 
2013-11-19 08:34:17 AM  
The theme park MMO might not be dead, but I'm done with them. I like to manipulate systems and make my own fun, not just be the data entry catalyst for a preset outcome.
 
2013-11-19 08:37:51 AM  
Smartphones and tablets will kill themepark MMOs, if anything.
 
2013-11-19 08:42:43 AM  
People are just sick to death of WoW and its clone army.

Make anything unique that's half decent and people will flock to it
 
2013-11-19 08:54:49 AM  

J. Frank Parnell: People are just sick to death of WoW and its clone army.

Make anything unique that's half decent and people will flock to it


I'm disappointed that Dark Age of Camelot never took off.  3-way faction fight, neat historical references, awesome landscape effects.  Never played it, but worked with guys who dropped EQ for it as soon as it came out.
 
2013-11-19 08:56:18 AM  
What he's doing is interesting, but I suspect Star Citizen will beat him to "ending the era of theme park MMO's".

The problem is that current MMO's are just shared single player games.  The universe isn't just persistent, its mostly permanent. Nothing really changes aside from expansion packs adding new maps, and players have no hand in how the story unfolds.

Chris Roberts is proposing more of a non-permanent setup where players decide what events take place.
You're no longer just sharing an instance, but sharing events in the larger universe.
 
2013-11-19 09:00:54 AM  
Looking forward to building a PC for Star Citizen.  I'd like to try out Wildstar and Everquest Next, too.  Now if they made an MMO that controlled like one ofthe newer Ys games, I'd be all-in.
 
2013-11-19 09:06:46 AM  

way south: Chris Roberts is proposing more of a non-permanent setup where players decide what events take place.
You're no longer just sharing an instance, but sharing events in the larger universe.


Let me hop into my Way Back Mach -- oh , there it is in 2003. Hello, EVE Online!
 
2013-11-19 09:10:02 AM  

Frozboz: Smartphones and tablets will kill themepark MMOs, if anything.


That's what I was thinking.
That said, I'd rather rather play the game Garrott's describing than the various WoW style games.  I've played very little of those type of games, but they come off more like work than fun.
 
2013-11-19 09:10:17 AM  

FrancoFile: I'm disappointed that Dark Age of Camelot never took off. 3-way faction fight, neat historical references, awesome landscape effects. Never played it, but worked with guys who dropped EQ for it as soon as it came out.


That's just minor tweaking of the same WoW model. And it can be traced back to EQ, which WoW improved on.

But what i'm talking about is no magical +5 pants dropping from an elite rat, and all that tired old D&D shiat. D&D is fine and all, but try and have some imagination with MMOs instead of everything having to be done that way.
 
2013-11-19 09:17:06 AM  

J. Frank Parnell: Make anything unique that's half decent and people will flock to it


How unique can you get? How is it measured? Maybe the consumer just has to identify what it is they are looking for.

MMOs run the gamut of practically everything, to be quite honest. Using WoW as a baseline, you have options that give you:

* far better and more immersive graphics (Aion, Bless)
* more dynamic and responsive fighting system (Tera)
* more control over the meta-story and universe (EVE)
* the abandonment of the traditional class-role system with very personalized specs (Rift)
* various penalties for dying, from momentary inconvenience (WoW) to possibly being set back months (EVE)
* medieval, high fantasy, futuristic, space
* riding horses, flying with angel wings, piloting a ship
* weapons and gear that change the way your abilities respond to your character (GW)
* insane gamuts of skills that you can never fully level (Entropia)
* dynamic quests based on being in the right place at the right time (Rift)
* quests that depend on the path your character has chosen for him or herself (SW:TOR)
 
2013-11-19 09:21:59 AM  

Feepit: MMOs run the gamut of practically everything, to be quite honest. Using WoW as a baseline, you have options that give you:


If you don't see how practically all those are essentially the same game with different character models and landscapes then i don't know what to say.

The only one truly different is EVE, which has gone from bad to mediocre over the years. But people have always played simply because it's completely different than anything else.
 
2013-11-19 09:23:12 AM  

Kristoph57: Kristoph57: to compete with WoW.

Sorry, I should rephrase - they're not going to compete with WoW at it's pinnacle. The base has been on a decline for a while, but its still an order of magnitude above what most companies should expect.


I think this is a valid point but keep in mind that even a declining WoW population is over 7 million players.  Any other MMO would be happy to have that at it's peak and we are talking about WoW losing a 1/4 of it players since it's peak.

Honestly, the only MMO that will compete with WoW is the next Blizzard MMO.  Other games have done things better, graphics, leveling, PVP, etc, but there are two things WoW has done better that keep people playing.

First, they are the Microsoft of MMO's and that is not a bad thing in this case.  They see the features others have and fit them in to WoW in a way that works.  The next expansion will have what they are calling 'garrisons'.  From what I can tell, this is a modified version of how the companions worked in SWTOR.  While BioWare came up with the idea, the implementation was not as good because they didn't take the time to work on HOW the players should use them.

Second, until another MMO realizes they have to have a fully functional end game when they go live, they will never challenge WoW.  None of the games meant to challenge WoW in the last 4-5 years have had a fully formed end game to keep players interested after leveling.  A couple dungeons and maybe 1 raid is not fully formed.  To me it is a lack of understand on what MMO players are looking for.

I know WoW has got crap for the gear grind and the daily questing at max level but there is a reason people keep playing and until another company realizes you have to make multiple features work together, they will all end up in the same place Rift, Warhammer, Age of Conan, and countless others have, forgotten and not played after the first couple months.
 
2013-11-19 09:24:17 AM  

foo monkey: Why is anyone playing anything other than FFXIV?


Because FFXIV is, at best, a mediocre MMO with pretty graphics slapped on top.
 
2013-11-19 09:26:30 AM  

FrancoFile: J. Frank Parnell: People are just sick to death of WoW and its clone army.

Make anything unique that's half decent and people will flock to it

I'm disappointed that Dark Age of Camelot never took off.  3-way faction fight, neat historical references, awesome landscape effects.  Never played it, but worked with guys who dropped EQ for it as soon as it came out.


DAoC is still going.
 
2013-11-19 09:29:36 AM  

J. Frank Parnell: If you don't see how practically all those are essentially the same game with different character models and landscapes then i don't know what to say.


If you think character models and landscapes are a substantial difference, then I would say the other characteristics I pointed out are also important.

Also, keep in mind, there are only so many ways to do things.

Just like in the real world, in MMOs you can get clothing by crafting, buying, finding some lying around, ripping it off somebody's dead body (Ultima and EVE) or stealing it from them unawares (Ultima). What other way are you going to go about that? Really, you can't, other than adding to the complexity or completely overhauling the game-human interface (keyboard, mouse, etc).

The fighting systems of Tera and WoW are completely different, but it still boils down to mashing buttons because we're limited by a keyboard.
 
kab
2013-11-19 09:30:52 AM  
More than theme park MMO's, I'm utterly tired of risk-free, decision-free games in this genre.   WoW's peak popularity is easily the worst thing that's ever happened to these games, as it attracted a whole slew of players who actually don't enjoy the fundamental aspects of MMO's to begin with, and caused an awful lot of games to wind up playing far too much like clones as they played follow the leader.

Blizzard saying 'well, lets try to satisfy this breed of player', which ultimately is a losing battle, was another terrible decision.

/the original version of Asheron's Call did a lot of things very right.
 
2013-11-19 09:32:03 AM  

kab: the original version of Asheron's Call did a lot of things very right


THIS
 
2013-11-19 09:32:47 AM  

Feepit: way south: Chris Roberts is proposing more of a non-permanent setup where players decide what events take place.
You're no longer just sharing an instance, but sharing events in the larger universe.

Let me hop into my Way Back Mach -- oh , there it is in 2003. Hello, EVE Online!


Which still uses the concept of permanence in its mission design.
Its also as exciting as a stock market simulator.

The next step is a sandbox with no quests. Just missions generated by user driven events and economic actions. There'll be a heavy reliance on things like permadeath and instancing.
Games like Shroud of the Avatar mean to do away with the traditional "Play the hero" interface and simply drop you into a fully functional persistent world.

I doubt its going to be for everyone, as some people really want to play a story arc rather than be the story.
 
2013-11-19 09:41:18 AM  

way south: Feepit: way south: Chris Roberts is proposing more of a non-permanent setup where players decide what events take place.
You're no longer just sharing an instance, but sharing events in the larger universe.

Let me hop into my Way Back Mach -- oh , there it is in 2003. Hello, EVE Online!

Which still uses the concept of permanence in its mission design.
Its also as exciting as a stock market simulator.

The next step is a sandbox with no quests. Just missions generated by user driven events and economic actions. There'll be a heavy reliance on things like permadeath and instancing.
Games like Shroud of the Avatar mean to do away with the traditional "Play the hero" interface and simply drop you into a fully functional persistent world.

I doubt its going to be for everyone, as some people really want to play a story arc rather than be the story.


I was all about Shroud of the Avatar until they announced that interacting with NPCs would be done via text parser and that you would not have any in-game map or quest log.  We're still not advanced enough with "AI" to make a test parser feel any more believable than old Infocom games (I forsee a lot of "I don't know what you mean" from NPCs), and no in-game map or quest log doesn't increase my immersion; it lessens it because it basically means my character is too stupid to write things down and the world they're in has never heard of cartography.  If they think in-game maps and quest logs are immersion breaking, they can translate them into items and/or skills within the game world.  Completely removing them is just plain dumb.
 
2013-11-19 09:41:31 AM  

way south: The next step is a sandbox with no quests. Just missions generated by user driven events and economic actions.


On that front, a foot has been dipped into the pool as it were. Rift with invasions and EVE with incursions already have something similar, where an NPC army comes into a system and takes over, preventing users from interacting with friendly NPCs until they are defeated. On PVP servers, it can be a user army doing the same. The motivating factor is you can't engage in commerce or level skills until the obstacle is removed or you just go to another village that isn't overrun which I guess is a reason to explore.

Maybe it was the implementation, but I found that got boring rather quickly ...
 
2013-11-19 09:47:52 AM  

Feepit: way south: The next step is a sandbox with no quests. Just missions generated by user driven events and economic actions.

On that front, a foot has been dipped into the pool as it were. Rift with invasions and EVE with incursions already have something similar, where an NPC army comes into a system and takes over, preventing users from interacting with friendly NPCs until they are defeated. On PVP servers, it can be a user army doing the same. The motivating factor is you can't engage in commerce or level skills until the obstacle is removed or you just go to another village that isn't overrun which I guess is a reason to explore.

Maybe it was the implementation, but I found that got boring rather quickly ...


Fun Fact: Istaria (formerly known as Horizons) was doing that sort of dynamic content back in 2003.
 
2013-11-19 10:03:00 AM  
FTA: "So it's a combination of the best practices of the past as well as some great new design and technology that we're bringing to bear." Among the new design ideas is item creation and an economy left entirely to players. Items created by players will be recycled and reused by the game when discarded while players will often have active roles in villages and cities, owning property and setting up in-game businesses.


So he wants to make Star Wars Galaxy again?
 
2013-11-19 10:10:13 AM  

Teufelaffe: way south: Feepit: way south: Chris Roberts is proposing more of a non-permanent setup where players decide what events take place.
You're no longer just sharing an instance, but sharing events in the larger universe.

Let me hop into my Way Back Mach -- oh , there it is in 2003. Hello, EVE Online!

Which still uses the concept of permanence in its mission design.
Its also as exciting as a stock market simulator.

The next step is a sandbox with no quests. Just missions generated by user driven events and economic actions. There'll be a heavy reliance on things like permadeath and instancing.
Games like Shroud of the Avatar mean to do away with the traditional "Play the hero" interface and simply drop you into a fully functional persistent world.

I doubt its going to be for everyone, as some people really want to play a story arc rather than be the story.

I was all about Shroud of the Avatar until they announced that interacting with NPCs would be done via text parser and that you would not have any in-game map or quest log.  We're still not advanced enough with "AI" to make a test parser feel any more believable than old Infocom games (I forsee a lot of "I don't know what you mean" from NPCs), and no in-game map or quest log doesn't increase my immersion; it lessens it because it basically means my character is too stupid to write things down and the world they're in has never heard of cartography.  If they think in-game maps and quest logs are immersion breaking, they can translate them into items and/or skills within the game world.  Completely removing them is just plain dumb.


Actually... You gave me a reason to become interested in it.

Old school RPG's were text driven.
The commands were rudimentary, but in an age of Siri I don't put it beyond them to do better.

Back in the same era it also wasn't unusual to draw your own maps and keep your own record books. I hoarded my nintendo power foldouts like a pirate with a treasure map.
That sort of thing brings its own kind of immersion as you are forced to interpret vague npc hints, or interact with the fuzzy memories of other players.  Things discovered are quickly forgotten if no ones keeping a record.
These days people will just search a wiki, but its still not as simple as modern MMO's where you just have a map with giant arrows and notes telling you what to do.


Its not convenient, and its not for everyone, but there's a certain crowd that appreciates not having things done for them. People who really want the thrill of exploration and are just fine if the game doesn't remind them where they've been.
 
2013-11-19 10:20:07 AM  

way south: Back in the same era it also wasn't unusual to draw your own maps and keep your own record books. I hoarded my nintendo power foldouts like a pirate with a treasure map.
That sort of thing brings its own kind of immersion as you are forced to interpret vague npc hints, or interact with the fuzzy memories of other players.  Things discovered are quickly forgotten if no ones keeping a record.
These days people will just search a wiki, but its still not as simple as modern MMO's where you just have a map with giant arrows and notes telling you what to do.

Its not convenient, and its not for everyone, but there's a certain crowd that appreciates not having things done for them. People who really want the thrill of exploration and are just fine if the game doesn't remind them where they've been.


I get not wanting the game to hold your hand, but you can give an in-game map and/or quest log without hand holding.  Personally, I'd love to see cartography as an in-game skill.  The lower the skill, the more crude and potentially unreliable your in-game map is.  At higher skill levels, your in-game map has more detail, and is more accurate.  As for the quest log, have that based off your character's intelligence.  Low level intelligence results in a crude list like "Kill troll, make town happee".  At higher levels of intelligence, your log is more detailed, "Slay the troll in nearby cave, return to Mayor Questgiver when done."  There are ways to make both an in-game map and quest log immersive, dynamic, and interesting.  Dropping them entirely in the name of immersion is a cop-out.
 
2013-11-19 10:29:54 AM  
If Subby uses quotation marks, maybe it should be an actual quote.  That's not what Garriot said:

"I do think level-grind theme park games are dead, in favor of the sandbox, and not just the sandbox, but the sandbox with meaning."

Yes, the article also uses it, but both Subby and article make it sound like Garriot said it, and he didn't.

/End of today's Composition lesson.
 
kab
2013-11-19 10:34:41 AM  

Teufelaffe: I get not wanting the game to hold your hand, but you can give an in-game map and/or quest log without hand holding. Personally, I'd love to see cartography as an in-game skill. The lower the skill, the more crude and potentially unreliable your in-game map is. At higher skill levels, your in-game map has more detail, and is more accurate. As for the quest log, have that based off your character's intelligence. Low level intelligence results in a crude list like "Kill troll, make town happee". At higher levels of intelligence, your log is more detailed, "Slay the troll in nearby cave, return to Mayor Questgiver when done." There are ways to make both an in-game map and quest log immersive, dynamic, and interesting. Dropping them entirely in the name of immersion is a cop-out.


I don't mind crude maps being unlocked as you traverse terrain, and as you say, cartography would be an interesting skill.   What I DO mind are coordinate systems, and questing that winds up telling you not only EXACTLY where to go, but exactly what to kill to get x number of y.
 
2013-11-19 10:35:01 AM  
WoW isn't going anywhere but is on its slow decline.  Cata turned off a lot of folks, including me and made not buying Pandaria easy.  New content once in TWO blue moons.

Guild Wars 2 is my replacement for fantasy MMO.  Great combat, crafting and exploration.  New content regularly added.

Star Trek Onine for my super-casual space MMO.  Great space and ground combat with varying levels of    difficulty and of course the Trek universe.  New content regularly added.
 
2013-11-19 10:44:18 AM  
Yo Rift, I'm really happy for you, I'll let you finish, but LOtRO has one of the best F2P MMOs of all time. One of the best F2P MMOs of all time!
 
2013-11-19 10:46:55 AM  
Note to developers:

Make a Fallout or Borderlands MMO and you've got my $10-20 a month.

I tried Defiance, and...yeah, not quite there.  Definitely worth the one time payment of $10, but I eventually ran out of things to do after a couple months.  The writing is sub-par with little humor or personality, there's minimal reason to join a clan or even interact with the other people playing (and the chat interface is poor), and it's third person as opposed to first.  The combat was mostly good, though.
 
2013-11-19 11:19:34 AM  
Yet oddly, "theme park" FPS and JRPG games are still doing great.

I honestly don't understand the appeal of games that are like that. I want to have control over what happens, where I go, what I do, and how things turn out.
 
2013-11-19 11:23:31 AM  

Rev. Skarekroe: That's what I was thinking.
That said, I'd rather rather play the game Garrott's describing than the various WoW style games.  I've played very little of those type of games, but they come off more like work than fun.


It may be of interest to you that when I left WoW due to the endgame gear grind I picked up playing his Tabula Rasa title and had loads and loads of fun.  It seemed like the game was built for people to leave WoW and just fool around for a few hours.  It was perfect for a guy like me who decided he didn't want to play at a game that had become a part-time job but still liked MMOs.  I could log in and contest a control point, or run an instance with my brother or one or two friends who happened to be online at the time.

After my alloted gaming time for the night was spent I could log off and not feel like I was being left behind progression-wise due to missing what would have been the final 3-4hours of raiding.  And the alternate characters in RG:TR were incredibly easy to make: you just duplicated your character at a decision point when you chose to specialize.

I kinda miss that game...hopefully Garriott is able to bring the same "playability" to his current project.

My next hope for MMORPGs is going to be Bungie's Destiny, but I'm partial because I grew up playing Marathon on the Mac :)
 
2013-11-19 11:23:33 AM  
I can't shake the feeling Star Citizen will be the BattleCruiser 3000AD of it's time.

I also don't think WoW is dying as much as the genre is.
 
2013-11-19 11:25:07 AM  

bluenote13: The next expansion will have what they are calling 'garrisons'. From what I can tell, this is a modified version of how the companions worked in SWTOR. While BioWare came up with the idea, the implementation was not as good because they didn't take the time to work on HOW the players should use them.


The garrison thing sounds like they're adding more of a mini-game.  You get to build farms, barracks, town halls, etc. Then you have your minions gather resources or perform other tasks.  What they're adding to WoW is just a scaled up version of Warcraft itself.

Tannhauser: WoW isn't going anywhere but is on its slow decline. Cata turned off a lot of folks, including me and made not buying Pandaria easy. New content once in TWO blue moons.


I like that they're adding 10 levels to this ex-pack instead of another 5 and taking questing "off the rails" to make you actually want to explore for quests instead of just moving on down the line.   This will be less cata/pandaria expansion and more in tune to a BC/WotLK which I think is great.  I haven't played "since vanilla" but I've been playing long enough to understand where the ex-packs after Wrath went horribly wrong.
 
2013-11-19 11:34:07 AM  
Orrrr... maybe both types of games can coexist and people can stop worrying about one having to kill another? The MMO landscape isn't Highlander.
 
2013-11-19 11:41:43 AM  

rabidferret: My next hope for MMORPGs is going to be Bungie's Destiny, but I'm partial because I grew up playing Marathon on the Mac :)


The Marathon games were amazing.  According to your link this new game has MMO elements without being a full on MMO, which appeals to me.

I'm cautiously optimistic about Elder Scrolls Online, but that's just because I love those games and that world so much.
 
2013-11-19 11:50:59 AM  

Rev. Skarekroe: I'm cautiously optimistic about Elder Scrolls Online, but that's just because I love those games and that world so much.


Now thats a level of optimism that I cant believe even exist.  Skyrim was a fine game on its own but it shoved a sword up the ES lines ass and gave it a good twist to finish it off.  ESO is going to take the elder scrolls corpse and skull fark it.  I'm guessing it will sell a bazillion copies and still be a Pay2Win game within a month or two.
 
2013-11-19 11:51:07 AM  

hamdingers: I can't shake the feeling Star Citizen will be the BattleCruiser 3000AD of it's time.


Nah.  The hangar module they've already released is a better game than BC3K was.  ;)
 
2013-11-19 11:55:05 AM  
Eternal Crusade when?
 
2013-11-19 11:59:26 AM  
I've been enjoying FFXIV. Wish my guild was on the same time I am so we can play more often. Guild housing drops in 2.1 and I've built up a warchest of 4 million gil to buy one. I hope it's enough.

I am cautiously optimistic for Star Citizen. I have difficulty navigating their website. And the don't get any more $$ from me until I can actually PLAY. Not just wander around a hanger.
 
2013-11-19 12:03:26 PM  

genepool lifeboat: bluenote13: The next expansion will have what they are calling 'garrisons'. From what I can tell, this is a modified version of how the companions worked in SWTOR. While BioWare came up with the idea, the implementation was not as good because they didn't take the time to work on HOW the players should use them.

The garrison thing sounds like they're adding more of a mini-game.  You get to build farms, barracks, town halls, etc. Then you have your minions gather resources or perform other tasks.  What they're adding to WoW is just a scaled up version of Warcraft itself.


Fair enough.  Like others, I am not actively playing the game now but having spent a lot of time playing before that I still pay attention to the changes and I can honestly say I like what I have heard about this expansion more than Pandaria.  If I understand, at 90 Pandaria had something like 50 daily quests you had to do for rep and gear.  They are getting rid of that which automatically makes this expansion better than the last two.

I might play for a month just to see the new content but will probably not remain in long term.  There are jsut so many other things to occupy my time that investing 5-10 hours a week, minimun, to farm, raid, etc is not something I am willing to do.

On the other hand, losing an entire afternoon to Civ 5 and the 'one more turn' trap is something I have done a lot of recently.
 
2013-11-19 12:03:48 PM  
I miss Star Wars Galaxies, before "Smedley's Folly." Most games, after that, haven't really lived up to the "sandbox" ideal.
 
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