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(New York Daily News)   NYC artist goes online to "kickstart" her vagina using fund-raising site Kickstarter for gender reassignment surgery   (m.nydailynews.com) divider line 148
    More: Spiffy, sex-change operations, funds, performance artist, short-term mission, genders  
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4166 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Nov 2013 at 9:41 AM (36 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-18 12:33:18 PM

dfenstrate: Theaetetus: First, as noted above, the surgery typically requires a period of  years of therapy first.

Well, with the BIID folks mentioned earlier (who get limb amputations in extreme cases), doesn't that make Transgender surgery a grim task to be done only when absolutely necessary, rather than something to encouraged and celebrated?


A limb amputation reduces function. Gender reassignment surgery does not, but rather simply replaces one function with another (and arguably  improves function, as the patient may not have gotten much use out of their genitals previously). Accordingly, the determinations are not equally balanced.

(+ the usual 'you brutal unthinking savage' and 'how dare you come to a fark thread without preparing like it's a presidential debate')

No, it's the proper response to "I'm going to make lots of derogatory and prejudicial statements about something, while admitting I know nothing about it". If you don't know about something, and are unwilling to do research yourself, then ask questions. Spouting off a willfully uninformed opinion disparaging people is just being a jackass.
 
2013-11-18 12:39:38 PM

dfenstrate: Theaetetus: I'm passive aggressive, but you're the one name calling and running away because of my profession?

If you could successfully defend someone by talking in circles without ever touching upon a concrete fact, wouldn't you do so, in open court?

I mean, I asked you for a fact, and...


Which "fact" was that? You asked me whether these patients were "loved enough" to be counseled in a particular direction. Do you think that's a reasonable way to ask for an objective fact?

... you called me a brutal unthinking savage.

Nope, those are your words, not mine.  I called you presumptive, and willfully ignorant. You've admitted you don't know what treatment rates are like, while simultaneously suggesting what treatment rates should be. That  is both presumptive and willfully ignorant, so I stand by both statements. However, I never called you a "brutal unthinking savage", and why would I? I don't need to call you names to show that you're wrong.
 
2013-11-18 12:39:46 PM

dfenstrate: We seem to have a lot of time these days for all sorts of new and unusual conditions that didn't exist when day to day life was much tougher, so saying the first surgery didn't occur until 1930 doesn't mean much.



Right, prior to that it was good ol' suicide and homicide. Which still occur quite a lot nowadays.

/ good on you
 
2013-11-18 12:47:54 PM
I've done quite a bit of research on this subject, in part to help me understand some acquaintances.

Re: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom and Theaetetus's argument, I have to agree with Dow;  the evidence seems to indicate that the majority of cases should probably be classified as mental illnesses.  Look at the high level issues (some of which have already been touched upon):

- Similar body issues that don't revolve around sexuality are treated (or not treated, but considered) as mental illnesses - and no reputable doctor will amputate 'because it might be better'.
- TG individuals experience psychological issues several degrees of magnitude higher than the norm, a suite including depression, bipolar disorder, obsessive/compulsive, and various schizophrenic or psychotic ailments, indicating an overall unhealthy mental state.
- Post-op TG experience no change in the already abnormally high level of depression for that group, many commit suicide - thus the operation is in no way a 'fix'.

Looking closer at the details is also enlightening.  We don't have a lot of unbiased information though - it turns out that transgender issues (and indeed, physical issues) seem to be bounded roughly by national borders.  Thus, transgender individuals in thailand act, dress, behave, and in general have less commonalities with TG individuals in say, Australia, or Spain.  It's postulated that this is a cultural border, which further places the focus on a mental issue;  the majority of TG behavior is driven by cultural perception of a gender, instead of biological:

- Repeated focus on clothing and apparently gender-specific interests restricted to a specific culture indicates a fairly sterotypical - and sexist - view of the preferred gender.
- Survey studies show that Male-to-Female TG in the US are shown to have a very strong correlation (over 70%) with single mother households or those lacking a sterotypical male role model (for example, if the father spends little time at home, or conversely, if a child is raised primarily by grandparents including a grandfather)
- As above, suicide rates are unchanged between pre- and post-op TG's, one claim is that this is because of a lack of cultural acceptance; this indicates the individual is evaluating their role based on societal norms and cultural values, not biological.
- Historical accounts of Mukhannathun indicate the common theme of transgender acceptance (and their actions) based on religious themes, again a cultural bias.
... and so on.

Now, I'm willing to accept that there are biological factors which make someone more prone to being TG, but it seems that some number - I suspect a majority - of cases should be classified as mental illnesses, and are simply not treated as such because it's currently not politically acceptable to confront individuals on matters of sexuality.

For this potential majority, costuming themselves either literally or surgically does not make them happy, and it does not fix their underlying problems.  I think that we as a culture are treating this as a political issue when it should be mental health issue, and by avoiding classifying it as a potential illness, we choose to follow popular opinion rather than consider valid analysis and possible treatment.

TL;DR:  If TG was primarily biological, it wouldn't have a cultural bias but it clearly does.  If living as TG/getting surgery is meant to make them happy, why do they still commit suicide at the same rate?  Maybe the majority are actually mentally ill, and we're not giving them treatment because of political correctness.
 
2013-11-18 12:54:09 PM

MassAsster: ReverendJynxed: Of for farks sake. Anyone care to crowd-fund my lavish lifestyle of hookers, blow, and solid gold toilet seats?

hmmmm, will you sign away the TV rights, and allow us all to watch the train wreck unfold in a new trutv series ?


I'll sign a contract today if you bankroll it.
 
2013-11-18 01:11:18 PM

quietwalker: Re: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom and Theaetetus's argument, I have to agree with Dow;  the evidence seems to indicate that the majority of cases should probably be classified as mental illnesses.


Respectfully, I think you may have missed the point of that argument - it was around whether BDD should be classified as exclusively a mental illness, or whether that distinction is even meaningful when the illness is a disconnect between the body and mind. Neither of us are claiming that it's not an illness period.

Look at the high level issues (some of which have already been touched upon):

- Similar body issues that don't revolve around sexuality are treated (or not treated, but considered) as mental illnesses - and no reputable doctor will amputate 'because it might be better'.


This is not true.  For example, see the DSM entry for BIID, which notes:
Amputation of the healthy body part appears to result in remission of BIID and an impressive improvement of quality of life. Knowledge of and respect for the desires of BIID individuals are the first steps in providing care and may decrease the huge burden they experience.

- TG individuals experience psychological issues several degrees of magnitude higher than the norm, a suite including depression, bipolar disorder, obsessive/compulsive, and various schizophrenic or psychotic ailments, indicating an overall unhealthy mental state.


However, and contrary to your next point, surgery appears to significantly improve these.

- Post-op TG experience no change in the already abnormally high level of depression for that group, many commit suicide - thus the operation is in no way a 'fix'.

Not so:
A 2010 meta-analysis of follow-up studies[12] reported "Very low quality evidence suggests that sex reassignment that includes hormonal interventions in individuals with GID likely improves gender dysphoria, psychological functioning and comorbidities, sexual function and overall quality of life. MF transsexuals may have worse outcomes than FM individuals." Specifically, the study found that "Pooling across studies shows that after sex reassignment, 80% of individuals with GID reported significant improvement in gender dysphoria (95% CI = 68-89%; 8 studies; I2 = 82%); 78% reported significant improvement in psychological symptoms (95% CI = 56-94%; 7 studies; I2 = 86%); 80% reported significant improvement in quality of life (95% CI = 72-88%; 16 studies; I2 = 78%); and 72% reported significant improvement in sexual function (95% CI = 60-81%; 15 studies; I2 = 78%)."
A recent Swedish study (2010) found that "almost all patients were satisfied with sex reassignment at 5 years, and 86% were assessed by clinicians at follow-up as stable or improved in global functioning".


I would caution, however, against drawing definitive conclusions. This is still a relatively rare and new area.

Looking closer at the details is also enlightening.  We don't have a lot of unbiased information though - it turns out that transgender issues (and indeed, physical issues) seem to be bounded roughly by national borders.  Thus, transgender individuals in thailand act, dress, behave, and in general have less commonalities with TG individuals in say, Australia, or Spain.  It's postulated that this is a cultural border, which further places the focus on a mental issue;  the majority of TG behavior is driven by cultural perception of a gender, instead of biological:

- Repeated focus on clothing and apparently gender-specific interests restricted to a specific culture indicates a fairly sterotypical - and sexist - view of the preferred gender.


This may be a misnomer. In the United States, before someone is allowed to undergo gender reassignment surgery, they must live for years in a very stereotypical - and sexist - depiction of the preferred gender. If someone wanting to be reassigned female  doesn't want to wear high heels and tons of makeup, for example, then their therapist will veto the surgery. Accordingly, it may be incorrect to ascribe the focus on clothing and apparently gender-specific interests to the  patient, rather than the  therapist.

- Survey studies show that Male-to-Female TG in the US are shown to have a very strong correlation (over 70%) with single mother households or those lacking a sterotypical male role model (for example, if the father spends little time at home, or conversely, if a child is raised primarily by grandparents including a grandfather)


Have a link? The Google shows nothing, and in fact, all of the studies I can find seem to indicate no correlation.

- As above, suicide rates are unchanged between pre- and post-op TG's, one claim is that this is because of a lack of cultural acceptance; this indicates the individual is evaluating their role based on societal norms and cultural values, not biological.

This is not true. According to the Praeger Handbook, suicide rates drop from about 20% pre-surgery to about 1% post-surgery, an astounding improvement.

- Historical accounts of Mukhannathun indicate the common theme of transgender acceptance (and their actions) based on religious themes, again a cultural bias.
... and so on.

Now, I'm willing to accept that there are biological factors which make someone more prone to being TG, but it seems that some number - I suspect a majority - of cases should be classified as mental illnesses, and are simply not treated as such because it's currently not politically acceptable to confront individuals on matters of sexuality.

For this potential majority, costuming themselves either literally or surgically does not make them happy, and it does not fix their underlying problems.  I think that we as a culture are treating this as a political issue when it should be mental health issue, and by avoiding classifying it as a potential illness, we choose to follow popular opinion rather than consider valid analysis and possible treatment.


As noted above, multiple studies appear to show this to be incorrect, as well as the drastically decreased suicide rate post-operation. 

TL;DR:  If TG was primarily biological, it wouldn't have a cultural bias but it clearly does.

Gender itself has a cultural bias, as you note above in discussing stereotypical preferred-gender actions and interests. Clearly, there's not a biological preference for high heels, but that's not what we're talking about.

If living as TG/getting surgery is meant to make them happy, why do they still commit suicide at the same rate?

Answer: they don't, and the surgery appears to be successful for the vast majority of patients.
 
2013-11-18 01:16:48 PM

Theaetetus: I think these comments highlight the real issue some people have with transgender folk: they're scared of anything that suggests that gender isn't a rigid dichotomy.


Scared?  No.  Uncomfortable?  Sure.


Theaetetus: Digging deeper into that, it's probably projection, born out of anxiety that  they don't meet up to an idealized standard they have in their mind. It's like a weird cousin to anorexia.  But really, it's okay, you two. We're not judging you like that.


I think we're talking about two different things.  I'm talking about people with GID who are transitioning with a goal of being able to blend without being spotted.  You seem to be talking about people whose body dysmorphia is never cured and they become plastic surgery junkies.
 
2013-11-18 01:24:26 PM
Theaetetus: quietwalker

Thanks for handling the thorough disputation.

This may be a misnomer. In the United States, before someone is allowed to undergo gender reassignment surgery, they must live for years in a very stereotypical - and sexist - depiction of the preferred gender. If someone wanting to be reassigned female  doesn't want to wear high heels and tons of makeup, for example, then their therapist will veto the surgery. Accordingly, it may be incorrect to ascribe the focus on clothing and apparently gender-specific interests to the  patient, rather than the therapist.

I doubt that most WPATH certified therapists, especially nowadays, would adhere to and insist on such gender-deaf stereotypes.
 
2013-11-18 01:33:29 PM
I'm not sure why this disorder isn't covered by medical insurance.  Gender Identity Disorder is a potentially debilitating mental disease.  The purpose of treatment isn't to cure the underlying cause; but rather to provide improved quality of life so that individuals can act as productive members of society.  Psychological counseling is not extremely effective in aligning a GID person's mental identity with their physical body; altering the physical body can provide immense psychological benefit with no detriment to others in society (psychological counseling costs money, so does surgery; either treatment has an economic cost), therefor it's a legitimate insurance claim.
 
2013-11-18 01:38:28 PM
Theaetetus: This may be a misnomer. In the United States, before someone is allowed to undergo gender reassignment surgery, they must live for years in a very stereotypical - and sexist - depiction of the preferred gender. If someone wanting to be reassigned female  doesn't want to wear high heels and tons of makeup, for example, then their therapist will veto the surgery. Accordingly, it may be incorrect to ascribe the focus on clothing and apparently gender-specific interests to the  patient, rather than the therapist.

runcible spork: I doubt that most WPATH certified therapists, especially nowadays, would adhere to and insist on such gender-deaf stereotypes.


I know people who transitioned two decades ago who didn't have to meet such stereotypical requirements.  It really depends on the therapist.  But then, that is generally the case with mental health professionals in general.
 
2013-11-18 01:43:53 PM

dfenstrate: Theaetetus: I'm passive aggressive, but you're the one name calling and running away because of my profession?

If you could successfully defend someone by talking in circles without ever touching upon a concrete fact, wouldn't you do so, in open court?

I mean, I asked you for a fact, and you called me a brutal unthinking savage.


Could be worse. Usually they charge for that.
 
2013-11-18 01:45:14 PM

Theaetetus: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: At least you agree that it's a mental illness...

 As noted above, it's logically indeterminable whether the "underlying" cause is that the body is incorrect or that the mind is incorrect, because the disorder is defined solely by the incorrect relationship between the two. It's only when you have a  prejudicial belief that the body must be correct that you can claim that not treating the mind is not treating the "underlying" cause.

Essentially, your entire position is based on prejudice, not logic or science.


Sex is determined by genetics . . . xx or xy.  There is no prejudiced or "grey area" here.  If you mind is telling you something different, is it not better to address the problem, not simply attempt to apply a band-aid through surgery?
 
2013-11-18 01:50:05 PM

Theaetetus: Which "fact" was that? You asked me whether these patients were "loved enough" to be counseled in a particular direction. Do you think that's a reasonable way to ask for an objective fact?


I asked about treatment rates as well, which is a simple fact that you are welcome to claim ignorance or disinterest in.
 
2013-11-18 01:52:59 PM

sea_monkey: Theaetetus: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: At least you agree that it's a mental illness...

 As noted above, it's logically indeterminable whether the "underlying" cause is that the body is incorrect or that the mind is incorrect, because the disorder is defined solely by the incorrect relationship between the two. It's only when you have a  prejudicial belief that the body must be correct that you can claim that not treating the mind is not treating the "underlying" cause.

Essentially, your entire position is based on prejudice, not logic or science.

Sex is determined by genetics . . . xx or xy.


1) Those are chromosomes. It's a little more complicated than that.
2) We're talking about gender.

There is no prejudiced or "grey area" here.  If you mind is telling you something different, is it not better to address the problem, not simply attempt to apply a band-aid through surgery?

We've already been over this dozens of times in this thread, but I'll ask you the same question and then not be surprised when you slink off without responding: how do you suggest to "address the problem"?And "ignore it and tell the person to suck it up" is not a valid answer.

We have no idea how to change someone's mind. We do know how to change someone's body. Why should we leave people untreated, when we have a valid treatment? The only reason is a prejudicial hostility toward surgery.
 
2013-11-18 01:58:38 PM

dfenstrate: Theaetetus: Which "fact" was that? You asked me whether these patients were "loved enough" to be counseled in a particular direction. Do you think that's a reasonable way to ask for an objective fact?

I asked about treatment rates as well, which is a simple fact that you are welcome to claim ignorance or disinterest in.


In the US, it's approximately 1:30k for men and 1:100k for women, according to the DSM IV. In Amsterdam, it's quoted as approximately 1:10k and 1:30k respectively.

/see how a nice clear question gives you a nice clear answer?
 
2013-11-18 02:03:34 PM
Kickstart her in the box and shove her
 
2013-11-18 02:04:28 PM
i.imgur.com

i.imgur.com

Yamino: "Hasbro, how dare you show a disabled female pony on your show?  It is offensive to disabled girls people everywhere!"

Disabled Girlsw: "But... we all love that pony.  Why are you demanding people like us be hidden from sight?"

Yamino:  "YOU PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!  I KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR YOU PEOPLE!  YOU WILL THANK ME ONE DAY!  I FIGHT FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE!  I AM NEITHER FEMALE NOR DISABLED BUT I CRUSADE FOR BOTH!  YOU WILL THANK ME."
 
2013-11-18 02:04:49 PM

Theaetetus: In the US, it's approximately 1:30k for men "men" (transsexual women) and 1:100k for women "women" (transsexual men), according to the DSM IV. In Amsterdam, it's quoted as approximately 1:10k and 1:30k respectively.

/see how a nice clear question gives you a nice clear answer?



FTFY. Clear answers are always tough. And those frequencies are much lower than I'd thought.
 
2013-11-18 02:15:04 PM

sea_monkey: Sex is determined by genetics . . . xx or xy. There is no prejudiced or "grey area" here. If you mind is telling you something different, is it not better to address the problem, not simply attempt to apply a band-aid through surgery?


Actually, there is a very large gray area. 

During gestation, part of our bodies' development is directed through hormones.  Genes tell your endocrine system how to develop, which in turn sends out messages on how other parts of your body should develop.  If you have a defect in your genes (such as a missing SRY gene on your Y chromosome), you may end up with an abnormal hormone production (see: Swyer syndrome).

The other gray area is that hormones generated by your body may have to compete with hormones from an external source.  A number of chemicals can mimic hormones, and if the mother is exposed to them, she can pass them to the fetus.  Since different parts of the body develop at different times, a transient exposure can alter one thing, but not another.  An estrogen exposure at week X could result in an intersex child.  At week Y, a child with GID.

So how do you fix a brain that received a blast of hormones contrary to that which created their genitals?  Or do you do as current and fix genitals that received a blast of hormones contrary to that which affected the brain?
 
2013-11-18 02:27:35 PM
I see Theaeteus is up to his usual schtick of word twisting, intellectual dishonesty and passive aggressive misandry.

I wonder if he understands why he is just about universally despised, even by people who agree with him about a topic?
 
2013-11-18 02:34:31 PM

sea_monkey: Theaetetus: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: At least you agree that it's a mental illness...

 As noted above, it's logically indeterminable whether the "underlying" cause is that the body is incorrect or that the mind is incorrect, because the disorder is defined solely by the incorrect relationship between the two. It's only when you have a  prejudicial belief that the body must be correct that you can claim that not treating the mind is not treating the "underlying" cause.

Essentially, your entire position is based on prejudice, not logic or science.

Sex is determined by genetics . . . xx or xy.  There is no prejudiced or "grey area" here.  If you mind is telling you something different, is it not better to address the problem, not simply attempt to apply a band-aid through surgery?


Yes, we understand how chromosomes effect our genetic gender. The problem is that we don't really understand how things like hormones can effect gender identity.

It's pretty obvious which one you think is more important.
 
2013-11-18 02:50:51 PM

FarkinHostile: I see Theaeteus is up to his usual schtick of word twisting, intellectual dishonesty and passive aggressive misandry.

I wonder if he understands why he is just about universally despised, even by people who agree with him about a topic?


Nope, dear, just you.
 
2013-11-18 02:53:45 PM
Also, FarkinHostile, did you really come in this thread just to troll me? You post this or the equivalent of it in every single thread I'm in, and almost never actually post anything remotely on topic. Makes me wonder if you've got some sort of sick crush on me.
 
2013-11-18 03:03:19 PM

Dinjiin: sea_monkey: Sex is determined by genetics . . . xx or xy. There is no prejudiced or "grey area" here. If you mind is telling you something different, is it not better to address the problem, not simply attempt to apply a band-aid through surgery?

Actually, there is a very large gray area. 

During gestation, part of our bodies' development is directed through hormones.  Genes tell your endocrine system how to develop, which in turn sends out messages on how other parts of your body should develop.  If you have a defect in your genes (such as a missing SRY gene on your Y chromosome), you may end up with an abnormal hormone production (see: Swyer syndrome).

The other gray area is that hormones generated by your body may have to compete with hormones from an external source.  A number of chemicals can mimic hormones, and if the mother is exposed to them, she can pass them to the fetus.  Since different parts of the body develop at different times, a transient exposure can alter one thing, but not another.  An estrogen exposure at week X could result in an intersex child.  At week Y, a child with GID.

So how do you fix a brain that received a blast of hormones contrary to that which created their genitals?  Or do you do as current and fix genitals that received a blast of hormones contrary to that which affected the brain?


Yes, but your "gray area" are clearly identified problems at the genetic level, one that although not corrective now can be in the future.   I would prefer they attempt to find a solution to the underlying problem, damaged chromosomes.  At the risk of repeating myself, opting instead to simply change the cosmetics is simply a band-aid solution that normally never works.    Case in point, David Reimer . . .
 
2013-11-18 03:08:32 PM
sea_monkey: Yes, but your "gray area" are clearly identified problems at the genetic level, one that although not corrective now can be in the future.   I would prefer they attempt to find a solution to the underlying problem, damaged chromosomes.  At the risk of repeating myself, opting instead to simply change the cosmetics is simply a band-aid solution that normally never works.    Case in point, David Reimer . . .

So. Nothing in the meantime?

David Reimer was not in any way transsexual or transgender, and John Money was a jerk.

/ are you even trying to be serious?
 
2013-11-18 03:16:19 PM

sea_monkey: Yes, but your "gray area" are clearly identified problems at the genetic level, one that although not corrective now can be in the future.   I would prefer they attempt to find a solution to the underlying problem, damaged chromosomes.


But, until that's done, should we refuse to treat anyone?

At the risk of repeating myself, opting instead to simply change the cosmetics is simply a band-aid solution that normally never works.

Actually, as discussed above in this thread with citations to actual studies, it normally always works.
 
2013-11-18 03:22:28 PM
runcible spork: sea_monkey: Yes, but your "gray area" are clearly identified problems at the genetic level, one that although not corrective now can be in the future.   I would prefer they attempt to find a solution to the underlying problem, damaged chromosomes.  At the risk of repeating myself, opting instead to simply change the cosmetics is simply a band-aid solution that normally never works.    Case in point, David Reimer . . .

So. Nothing in the meantime?

Therapy?

David Reimer was not in any way transsexual or transgender,
No, but his case parallels the issues being discussed with Dinjiin and Theaetetus.

and John Money was a jerk.
Oh, did you know him personally

/ are you even trying to be serious?
Yes, my last comment I was not . . .do you see the difference?
 
2013-11-18 03:25:43 PM

Theaetetus: sea_monkey: Yes, but your "gray area" are clearly identified problems at the genetic level, one that although not corrective now can be in the future.   I would prefer they attempt to find a solution to the underlying problem, damaged chromosomes.

But, until that's done, should we refuse to treat anyone?

At the risk of repeating myself, opting instead to simply change the cosmetics is simply a band-aid solution that normally never works.

Actually, as discussed above in this thread with citations to actual studies, it normally always works.


In the short term.  Studies involving longer spans of time show the underlying social issues still persist and remain unresolved.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0 01 6885
 
2013-11-18 03:28:41 PM

sea_monkey: Yes, but your "gray area" are clearly identified problems at the genetic level


Except for the part where I also talked about hormone mimicking chemicals passed from mother to fetus.
 
2013-11-18 03:37:21 PM
sea_monkey: runcible spork: sea_monkey: Yes, but your "gray area" are clearly identified problems at the genetic level, one that although not corrective now can be in the future.   I would prefer they attempt to find a solution to the underlying problem, damaged chromosomes.  At the risk of repeating myself, opting instead to simply change the cosmetics is simply a band-aid solution that normally never works.    Case in point, David Reimer . . .

So. Nothing in the meantime?
Therapy?


That doesn't seem to work so well without other measures.

David Reimer was not in any way transsexual or transgender,
No, but his case parallels the issues being discussed with Dinjiin and Theaetetus.


Parallels in what way? Does it occupy any of the relevant space? And how is it informative?

and John Money was a jerk.
Oh, did you know him personally


No, but by all accounts, and by his writings and actions, he was quite the egotistical, unethical jerk.

/ are you even trying to be serious?
Yes, my last comment I was not . . .do you see the difference?


Not much of one, to be honest.
 
2013-11-18 03:55:16 PM

sea_monkey: Theaetetus: sea_monkey: Yes, but your "gray area" are clearly identified problems at the genetic level, one that although not corrective now can be in the future.   I would prefer they attempt to find a solution to the underlying problem, damaged chromosomes.

But, until that's done, should we refuse to treat anyone?

At the risk of repeating myself, opting instead to simply change the cosmetics is simply a band-aid solution that normally never works.

Actually, as discussed above in this thread with citations to actual studies, it normally always works.

In the short term.  Studies involving longer spans of time show the underlying social issues still persist and remain unresolved.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0 01 6885


Respectfully, I believe that you may be misinterpreting that study. Your study compares people who have undergone sex reassignment surgery to the general population, and finds that yes, they're more prone to suicide than the general population.

However, that's a different question than the studies I noted, and is a different question than we're talking about here. The studies I cited noted that people who undergo sex reassignment surgery have lower rates of suicide  than other people with BDD who have not undergone surgery. People with BDD who have not undergone surgery are at significant risk of suicide. People with BDD who have undergone surgery are still at an increased risk of suicide over the general population, but at a significantly decreased rate from the former group, on the order of a 20:1 reduction.
Since what we're discussing here is whether surgery is an appropriate treatment for BDD, not whether it's a 100% cure, your study does not refute that suggestion.
 
2013-11-18 04:02:08 PM

quietwalker: TL;DR: If TG was primarily biological, it wouldn't have a cultural bias but it clearly does.


It can be both, given that neurological imaging has revealed that the brains of transgender people are constructed differently to their cisgendered counterparts. I would argue that the cultural biases would alter how transgender people express themselves.

quietwalker: If living as TG/getting surgery is meant to make them happy, why do they still commit suicide at the same rate?


That is something that requires further study - we're still not sure if the societal pressures on transgender people cause that, how much their altered neurology may predispose them to other mental health issues or whether its some combination thereof. Personally, I would be looking more at the societal issues that transgender people face as the major cause of a lot of mental health issues.
 
TJL
2013-11-18 06:16:31 PM

Prank Call of Cthulhu: MassAsster: Man, that is one ugly...  what ever it is...

From the kick-in-the-box-starter webpage:

Here is a breakdown of the costs: Travel to/from Thailand, (NYC-Bangcok, $2,000), At the Supbon clinic in Chonburi, Thailand: Sexual Reassignment Surgery ($18,000), Facial Feminization Surgery ($28,000), Surgery fees include hospital stay, 7 nights after SRS, 5 nights after FFS.  Hotel in Thailand, $50/night for 30 additional nights (6 weeks total recovery time, $1500), Food/Travel within Thailand ($3,000).  TOTAL: $77,500

So ripping your junk off ($18k) is only part of the cost. There's also $28k in "purtying it up" costs, so if you're really offended by the ugly, I guess you could donate and help fix that.

Although as far as I'm concerned, "So I thought I'd go to some craphole third-world country and get a bunch of surgery done" seems like the kind of thing that should have been included in that SNL "Bad Ideas Jeans" commercial.


While Thailand may not be the richest country out there, they are the world capital for this sort of thing. Thai doctors perform more sex reassignment surgeries than any other doctor. Although, she is going to the most expensive, brand-name Thai doctor out there. Suporn is often regarded as the best in the world, but he's also the most expensive. I went to another Thai doc, Dr. Chettawut, for SRS, and the surgery was only $11.5k The total cost including flight, hotel, etc was $15k.

But yeah, don't be scared about it being in Thailand. They really have the best docs on the planet for this sort of thing. And this is something you REALLY don't want to fark up.
 
TJL
2013-11-18 06:28:52 PM

Theaetetus: sea_monkey: Theaetetus: sea_monkey: Yes, but your "gray area" are clearly identified problems at the genetic level, one that although not corrective now can be in the future.   I would prefer they attempt to find a solution to the underlying problem, damaged chromosomes.

But, until that's done, should we refuse to treat anyone?

At the risk of repeating myself, opting instead to simply change the cosmetics is simply a band-aid solution that normally never works.

Actually, as discussed above in this thread with citations to actual studies, it normally always works.

In the short term.  Studies involving longer spans of time show the underlying social issues still persist and remain unresolved.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0 01 6885

Respectfully, I believe that you may be misinterpreting that study. Your study compares people who have undergone sex reassignment surgery to the general population, and finds that yes, they're more prone to suicide than the general population.

However, that's a different question than the studies I noted, and is a different question than we're talking about here. The studies I cited noted that people who undergo sex reassignment surgery have lower rates of suicide  than other people with BDD who have not undergone surgery. People with BDD who have not undergone surgery are at significant risk of suicide. People with BDD who have undergone surgery are still at an increased risk of suicide over the general population, but at a significantly decreased rate from the former group, on the order of a 20:1 reduction.
Since what we're discussing here is whether surgery is an appropriate treatment for BDD, not whether it's a 100% cure, your study does not refute that suggestion.


Exactly. Yes, SRS often brings immense peace to a person. It certainly did for me. Of course, the suicide risk is still elevated relative to the general population. I know a lot of other trans people. Some have unlucky genetics or started at too late an age, and thus, even after undergoing hormones, facial surgery, etc, still can't "pass," or be read as a member of their identified gender. Many others are rejected and disowned by their families. I myself live a very content life. My family supports me, I have a loving partner, and I was lucky enough genetics and age wise that no one questions my gender anymore. I simply live as female and that's it. I'm not out at my job, or to the students I tutor. I got pretty lucky in that I'm only 5'5", and I started young enough, age 23, that a lot of damage was prevented. My personal risk for suicide is quite low, probably similar to the general population. If someone can't pass, is rejected by their family, and struggles to find employment, then yeah, they're going to be at a very high risk of suicide.
 
2013-11-18 06:36:41 PM
in conservative Orange County, Calif


 UHH, what? Compared to NYC, Chicago, Los Angles?
 
2013-11-18 07:34:42 PM

Twinkles:

DNRTFA, but I expect her vagina being pulled for being against the Kickstarter terms of service, especially the "Do not fund your life"-clause.
And if you've ever had your vagina pulled, you know how painful that can be.
 
2013-11-18 07:45:38 PM

dfenstrate:

How many doctors could you find to chop off your arm if you decided you really, really felt like you weren't supposed to have arms? None.
On the other hand, if you say you want to get your dick chopped off because you can't accept reality, well, out come the knives!
What other hand?   "Out come the knives?"   That's what you get for walking around in East LA...
 
2013-11-18 07:50:57 PM

mbillips: What's the difference between a kickstarted vagina and a c*nt punt?


img.diytrade.com
 
2013-11-18 07:55:10 PM

Theaetetus:

If someone is suicidal and you can remove those feelings by giving them a hat, wouldn't you be a cruel bastard to insist that no, you shouldn't give them a hat, but should somehow "change" their mind, even though you readily admit that you have no idea how to even begin doing that?
Mental health triage teams generally carry a roll of aluminum foil.  If a delusional street person is worried about "brain influences," giving them a tinfoil hat actually calms them down, making the whole process easier.  Fewer side effects than drugs, as well, especially when the patient is an unknown.
 
2013-11-18 08:00:09 PM

ReverendJynxed:

Of for farks sake. Anyone care to crowd-fund my lavish lifestyle of hookers, blow, and solid gold toilet seats?
Meh, if you want it to work, you need to work on the pitch.
 
2013-11-18 08:34:40 PM
ReveredJynxed


Of for farks sake. Anyone care to crowd-fund my lavish lifestyle of hookers, blow, and solid gold toilet seats?

Here's a suggestion: If you don't think its a good use of your money, then don't donate.

Strange idea, I know.

Quietwalker

If living as TG/getting surgery is meant to make them happy, why do they still commit suicide at the same rate

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I wager it has something to do with the fact that their families often disown them and that society generally treats them like shiat.
 
2013-11-18 08:39:38 PM

o_blah:

Yes, we understand how chromosomes effect our genetic gender. The problem is that we don't really understand how things like hormones can effect gender identity.
Actually, we understand it pretty well -- but that understanding is not politically acceptable to many.   The gender decision points are as follows:

1. Genetic -- XX or XY assigned by the sperm and egg.   (Genetic abnormalities such as XYY beyond this scope)
2. Morphic -- Which physical organs develop, and do they match the genetic.
3. Identic -- What gender individual perceives self as.   (Brain autopsies follow this, for the most part.  Many gay men's brains are identified as female.)
4. Attractive -- Is gender attraction in line with the individual's genetics?
5. Affectational -- Do gender-specific affectations match the individual's genetics?

Of these, #1 is a matter of sperm content.  Numbers 2-5 are determined, in the order given, by the presence or absence of androgen in the womb.  In rats, giving the pregnant rat either an injection of androgen or an androgen antigen at specific times produces either male or female traits respectively.  The exact timing still involves a reasonable amount of uncertainty.

But researchers have been able to "order up" rats of whatever characteristics they want, irrespective of the genes.  It is possible for them to produce, starting with either an XX or XY fetus, a rat with male genitalia, which sees itself as female, is attracted to female rats, and behaves in very rat-butch fashion.  Or, any other combination.  The fact that such traits may be "ordered up" indicates a reasonable level of understanding.

When you add in the fact that the fetus SOMEHOW gets the mother to release androgen if it is male, and that the default position is female, quite a few facts line up well.  For example, women who were pregnant during the blitz in London in WWII were often in shelters all night, hearing bombs going off at varying intervals and distances.  In most people, this causes a release of a rather large amount of adrenalin.  It was theorized that such releases of adrenalin, which is an androgen antigen, would alter a mother's chemistry to favor female traits.  Looking at historical data, this was verified.  The children who were in the wormbs of mothers in the bomb shelters have much higher incidence of homosexuality than the general English population, and far fewer lesbians than a control population, as well.

Seeing that modern life tends to stress people more, the above suggests that we will be seeing a rise in the number of homosexual men born.  This is reminiscent of rat populations, which, after several generations of overcrowding, start producing individuals referred to as "the golden ones," males who are placid, generally seriously overweight, and either homosexual or nearly asexual in orientation.  This reduces the number of "normal" males, and generates a decline in the population.  When overpopulation pressure is reduced, "golden ones" are no longer born, and the colony returns to normal.  In an interesting aside, the only rodent which does NOT exhibit this process when overcrowded is the lemming, which has developed alternative coping mechanisms for overpopulation.

 
2013-11-18 08:49:25 PM

GeneralJim: ... have much higher incidence of [male] homosexuality than the general English population ...

/ prufredding....

 
2013-11-19 05:12:48 AM
'Like any life-changing event, you can't do this on your own,' Shakina Nayfack said of her planned reassignment surgery. 'It takes a village.'

No. Honestly, 50k for something that only benefits you is within the realm of your own power to do, lazy. Do you have any idea the good 50k could do in the world? How many needy kids that will set up for one good year? I'm all for gender-whatever-makes-you-feel-slightly-better-about-yourselfism, but you are a grown-ass, capable adult with a reasonable goal to achieve that in the end is just vanity. Get your ass a real job and achieve it and donate that money to actually solving a real world problem.

Goddamn I have to wonder how badly some people's parents failed them. Are there new generations of parents out there who never once uttered "earn it" for their kids?
 
2013-11-19 09:08:15 AM
Terrible Old Man

Being trapped in the wrong body and changing it isn't farking vanity. Its a matter of mental health. Not being able to transition can make a person suicidal.

Donating money to the surgery that helps a person feel normal and right  isn't farking vanity. Would you say the same about someone having facial reconstructive surgery after an accident?

By the way...if you want trans people to go out and earn it, you should try doing what you can to lower the stigma against them so they can actually find jobs and not get fired for transitioning.

Because that happens. A lot.
 
2013-11-19 12:38:54 PM
I see Fark's resident attorney is now a psychologist as well. Must have been tough getting in all that schooling between non stop daily posting here.
 
2013-11-19 12:48:38 PM

doubled99: I see Fark's resident attorney is now a psychologist as well. Must have been tough getting in all that schooling between non stop daily posting here.

  
I'd put cash money down that he didn't pass the bar, if he graduated law school at all.
 
2013-11-19 10:05:17 PM

Terrible Old Man: Goddamn I have to wonder how badly some people's parents failed them


We're all wondering the same about you and your folks.
 
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