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(The New York Times)   JFK's assassination and the Umbrella Man: an interesting look at facts, red herrings, and conspiracy theories   (nytimes.com) divider line 206
    More: Interesting, conspiracy theories, assassinations  
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7947 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Nov 2013 at 6:38 AM (22 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-17 06:42:15 AM
I just assumed the guy was using an umbrella cause the sun was hot that day. People do it here in Florida all the time.

And that guy has a really annoying voice.
 
2013-11-17 06:44:08 AM
Talk about being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
 
2013-11-17 06:49:22 AM
God damn, does this mean that this whole week will be nothing but JFK assassination stories? I mean, other stuff happened on 23 November 1963.

Like Doctor Who premiering on the BBC.

/Popcorn!
//Get your fresh, hot, delicious popcorn right here!
///Anyone want butter?
 
2013-11-17 06:52:04 AM

maram500: God damn, does this mean that this whole week will be nothing but JFK assassination stories? I mean, other stuff happened on 23 November 1963.

Like Doctor Who premiering on the BBC.

/Popcorn!
//Get your fresh, hot, delicious popcorn right here!
///Anyone want butter?


Whoopsies. I was off by a day. Still, other stuff happened that week.
 
2013-11-17 07:01:05 AM
Kennedy is that rocket guy, right? Not the Nazi one though. Something about rockets.......
 
2013-11-17 07:06:36 AM
I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days.
 
2013-11-17 07:12:54 AM
NOVA did an episode recently about a few of the JFK conspiracy theories and showed the magic bullet is indeed plausible.
 
2013-11-17 07:20:37 AM

enry: NOVA did an episode recently about a few of the JFK conspiracy theories and showed the magic bullet is indeed plausible.


They had released the Zapruter film a couple of years ago and not the cropped version we've had for 50 years - the full frame version. Someone (on one of the forums I used to visit) linked to it and said "The farking driver did it!!"

Yeah, whatever, dude.

Well, I watched it and the video itself is published as it was originally, then slow motion, then zoomed in. By god, it really looked like the driver fired a gun of some sort.

None of which should make any sense because he would be the easiest guy in the world to arrest. I guess.

Not saying I buy the theory, but it creeped me out a bit.
 
2013-11-17 07:23:27 AM

maram500: maram500: God damn, does this mean that this whole week will be nothing but JFK assassination stories? I mean, other stuff happened on 23 November 1963.

Like Doctor Who premiering on the BBC.

/Popcorn!
//Get your fresh, hot, delicious popcorn right here!
///Anyone want butter?

Whoopsies. I was off by a day. Still, other stuff happened that week.


"With the Beatles" was released that day.
 
2013-11-17 07:26:46 AM

enry: NOVA did an episode recently about a few of the JFK conspiracy theories and showed the magic bullet is indeed plausible.


One of my favorite show stopper questions for people dumping on the magic bullet theory is: Please explain just how did Connelly get his wounds, if not by the magic bullet? Most conspiracy theorists seem to want to ignore this facet of the assassination.
 
2013-11-17 07:40:44 AM
Food for thought:  Who shot prior Presidents?  There may have been something of a conspiracy behind Lincoln, people were hanged for it, but weren't McKinley and Garfield shot by lone nuts?  Anarchists, Bolsheviks and whatnot?
 
2013-11-17 07:45:35 AM
Hey NYT, who is Walter Duranty?
 
2013-11-17 07:56:16 AM
and how do we know that was the same guy in the film?
 
2013-11-17 07:57:31 AM
I'm more interested in knowing why Secret Service Agent-in-Charge Emory Roberts ordered Kennedy's rear guard to stand down as the motorcade left Love Field, giving Oswald a clear shot when they got to Dallas.

Link
 
2013-11-17 08:00:48 AM
Mister Nosehair listens to am talk radio as sleepy time noise.  I was up last night for a while unable to sleep and this was the topic of tinfoil-hat-radio all night.  What I took away from it was something something meetings while taking a crap, sadist, 6 shooters, Read my Book.  AAAAAUGH
 
2013-11-17 08:03:54 AM
Well that one was stupid.
 
2013-11-17 08:04:45 AM

phenn: enry: NOVA did an episode recently about a few of the JFK conspiracy theories and showed the magic bullet is indeed plausible.

They had released the Zapruter film a couple of years ago and not the cropped version we've had for 50 years - the full frame version. Someone (on one of the forums I used to visit) linked to it and said "The farking driver did it!!"

Yeah, whatever, dude.

Well, I watched it and the video itself is published as it was originally, then slow motion, then zoomed in. By god, it really looked like the driver fired a gun of some sort.

None of which should make any sense because he would be the easiest guy in the world to arrest. I guess.

Not saying I buy the theory, but it creeped me out a bit.


Where might one find this unedited version?
 
2013-11-17 08:05:15 AM

maram500: maram500: God damn, does this mean that this whole week will be nothing but JFK assassination stories? I mean, other stuff happened on 23 November 1963.

Like Doctor Who premiering on the BBC.

/Popcorn!
//Get your fresh, hot, delicious popcorn right here!
///Anyone want butter?

Whoopsies. I was off by a day. Still, other stuff happened that week.


This week is also the 35th anniversary of the murder/suicides in Jonestown/Port Kaituma, Guyana.
 
2013-11-17 08:08:59 AM

Captain Steroid: I'm more interested in knowing why Secret Service Agent-in-Charge Emory Roberts ordered Kennedy's rear guard to stand down as the motorcade left Love Field, giving Oswald a clear shot when they got to Dallas.

Link


JFK's orders.

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol2/page136.php
 
2013-11-17 08:13:02 AM

phenn: enry: NOVA did an episode recently about a few of the JFK conspiracy theories and showed the magic bullet is indeed plausible.

They had released the Zapruter film a couple of years ago and not the cropped version we've had for 50 years - the full frame version. Someone (on one of the forums I used to visit) linked to it and said "The farking driver did it!!"

Yeah, whatever, dude.

Well, I watched it and the video itself is published as it was originally, then slow motion, then zoomed in. By god, it really looked like the driver fired a gun of some sort.

None of which should make any sense because he would be the easiest guy in the world to arrest. I guess.

Not saying I buy the theory


You shouldn't.  Not a single eyewitness in Dealey Plaza reported seeing SA William Greer, Kennedy's driver, with a gun in his hand at any time during the time that the limousine was on Elm Street.
 
2013-11-17 08:17:26 AM

Confabulat: I just assumed the guy was using an umbrella cause the sun was hot that day. People do it here in Florida all the time.


I was thinking this too. Maybe the guy was concerned about skin cancer.

What was more puzzling to me is why, if he had sinister motivations, would he decide to make himself as conspicuous as possible?
 
2013-11-17 08:22:49 AM

wichitaleaf: Where might one find this unedited version?


Right here. I'm sure there are longer versions out there, but this one will work.

tirob: Not saying I buy the theory

You shouldn't. Not a single eyewitness in Dealey Plaza reported seeing SA William Greer, Kennedy's driver, with a gun in his hand at any time during the time that the limousine was on Elm Street.


I don't know that they would have seen that if he carried under his suit coat.

Like I said. I don't buy into any theories. Just pointing out that the video clip gave me the willies. I'm sure it could be explained by shadows or what not. Looked convincing at first blush, though.
 
2013-11-17 08:23:27 AM
Why do I feel like I just wasted 6 minutes of my life listening to that?

/I have a short attention sp.....
//look at the little birdie!
 
2013-11-17 08:26:57 AM
There was an interview with the police officer who was handcuffed to Oswald when he was shot by Ruby. He was familiar with Ruby before he shot Oswald and said that he was just a dumb attention whore who figured he'd be a hero for "avenging" Kennedy's death. The officer said that even Ruby realized that he'd done a stupid thing afterwards.
 
2013-11-17 08:27:05 AM

tirob: Captain Steroid: I'm more interested in knowing why Secret Service Agent-in-Charge Emory Roberts ordered Kennedy's rear guard to stand down as the motorcade left Love Field, giving Oswald a clear shot when they got to Dallas.

Link

JFK's orders.

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol2/page136.php


Ah. I see.

... That was f**king stupid, Jack. :-(
 
2013-11-17 08:29:23 AM

Captain Steroid: ... That was f**king stupid, Jack. :-(


I guess Kennedy realized how nutty Texas was and made comments about getting shot there yet he STILL ordered the bubble-top removed from the limo.
 
2013-11-17 08:32:28 AM
I get nothing but a large, black rectangle. What codec/add-on am I missing? Or is the video a pop-up? I'm using Win7/IE10.
 
2013-11-17 08:36:15 AM

WorkingInParadise: I get nothing but a large, black rectangle. What codec/add-on am I missing? Or is the video a pop-up? I'm using Win7/IE10.


It's that very last bit that's your problem...
 
2013-11-17 08:37:30 AM
Here is my conspiracy theory: They are about to give us some of the truth. That's why we are suddenly giving the JFK assassination theories credibility and moving it out of conspiracy nut territory.
 
2013-11-17 08:37:45 AM

phenn: wichitaleaf: Where might one find this unedited version?

Right here. I'm sure there are longer versions out there, but this one will work.

tirob: Not saying I buy the theory

You shouldn't. Not a single eyewitness in Dealey Plaza reported seeing SA William Greer, Kennedy's driver, with a gun in his hand at any time during the time that the limousine was on Elm Street.

I don't know that they would have seen that if he carried under his suit coat.
.


I'm sure that Greer was carrying a gun.  Nobody saw it in his hand, though.  And there were witnesses--notably Jean Hill and Mary Moorman--who were standing only a few feet away from the President's limousine when Greer turned his head.
 
2013-11-17 08:40:39 AM
Holy Fark, I almost shoved my monitor off the desk at 3:12.  This guy's voice is more sinister than a coordinated assassination plot.
 
2013-11-17 08:42:22 AM

maram500: WorkingInParadise: I get nothing but a large, black rectangle. What codec/add-on am I missing? Or is the video a pop-up? I'm using Win7/IE10.

It's that very last bit that's your problem...


Actually, it was Abine tracking protection/ad block that was just doing its job. Stupid precursor ads. Now that I've watched it, the whole video was not worth the time, IMHO.
 
2013-11-17 08:42:51 AM

tirob: I'm sure that Greer was carrying a gun. Nobody saw it in his hand, though. And there were witnesses--notably Jean Hill and Mary Moorman--who were standing only a few feet away from the President's limousine when Greer turned his head.


John Barbour (was on Real People in the 1980s) did a documentary called The Garrison Files. I guess this was the inspiration for Oliver Stone's film.

Anywho, it's rather lengthy, but interesting. You can find it, in parts, on Youtube.

No, he doesn't speculate on Greer. But, the rest of the content is rather fascinating.
 
2013-11-17 08:43:56 AM
Is it guaranteed that the still-classified documents will be released in 2017? Or will someone be able to block that?

I realize we are talking about government agencies, so...
 
2013-11-17 08:44:48 AM

Mudd's woman: Is it guaranteed that the still-classified documents will be released in 2017? Or will someone be able to block that?

I realize we are talking about government agencies, so...


I think it's 2029, actually. :-(
 
2013-11-17 08:45:40 AM

maram500: God damn, does this mean that this whole week will be nothing but JFK assassination stories? I mean, other stuff happened on 23 November 1963.

Like Doctor Who premiering on the BBC.

/Popcorn!
//Get your fresh, hot, delicious popcorn right here!
///Anyone want butter?


Just some Parmesan cheese, please.
 
2013-11-17 08:50:46 AM
I used to be one of those who bought into the 'conspiracy' of the JFK assassination.  Seemed plausible that something was amiss - the coincidences seemed too 'convenient', the reasons behind it seemed numerous.  There had to be some reason behind it 'they' didn't want us to know.

Until I actually visited Dealy Plaza several years ago.

First of all - the place is farking small!  Hell, We drove through it twice before we realized 'shiat - this is the place we are looking for!'  If you drive through it and aren't familiar with it, it's quite easy to pass through it before you actually realize where the hell you actually are.

It's shaped like a bowl:  So, any sound you get in there is easy to figure misdirection.  I live in a 'bowl' now...we have cranes that visit the lake every morning - the way sound travels in that type of area means something that originates on the other side of the area can actually sound like it's right next to you. (Those damned cranes always sound like they are right outside our window, when they are actually across the lake.)  Anyone who heard the shots that day could easily have 'heard' shots coming from right next to them, just based on the weird way sound travels in those types of land formations.

While you can't actually stand in the Oswald spot at the museum, you can stand in the window next to it...and even the crappiest of marksmen would have an easy shot - and it's farking close!
Logic and physics just do not support any conspiracy theory.  However, what does support the issues surrounding it is that this was probably the first 'internet conspiracy' phenomenon.  Prior to JFK's assassination, the political press machine had a damned good handle on controlling any press that was presidentially-related. (Can you imagine JFK's relentless banging-o-chicks keeping silent in today's media?  Like Roosevelt's wheelchair wouldn't have had it's own meme today.)

JFK's assassination changed all that in a second:  The white house simply did NOT have the control of information they were accustomed to having.  Reporters got to witnesses and published information, true or false, before anyone in the White House press machine could control the message, or even decipher it before it got out.  From the moment the first shot was fired, they were playing a futile game of catch up that let the genie out of the bottle and they could never get it back in.

Vast gubbment conspiracy - IMHO, no freakin way.  A clusterfark of mishmashed 'facts' because a news event happened in front of hundreds of human beings (The most faulty of witnesses.) - Yeah - seems far more likely.
 
2013-11-17 08:50:47 AM
Say what you like about Stone's 'JFK' but the original book by Jim Garrison was pretty compelling. Why was a turncoat marxist like Oswald hanging out with right-wing cuban exiles, and Birchers with CIA / Naval Intelligenge connections?
 
2013-11-17 08:52:14 AM

Captain Steroid: Mudd's woman: Is it guaranteed that the still-classified documents will be released in 2017? Or will someone be able to block that?

I realize we are talking about government agencies, so...

I think it's 2029, actually. :-(


From CNN:  The U.S. National Archives currently holds a number of unreleased CIA documents related to the assassination. Those papers are scheduled to be made public in 2017 as part of the 1992 Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act.
 
2013-11-17 08:58:02 AM
I got tired of listening to this cat meander about a minute in, but there's one thing for sure.  All the "conspiracy" theories about
Kennedy - and for that matter, Sep. 11, 2001 - are never going to go away because more than a few things about both of those events stink to high heaven.
 
2013-11-17 08:59:41 AM

BeatrixK: Vast gubbment conspiracy - IMHO, no freakin way. A clusterfark of mishmashed 'facts' because a news event happened in front of hundreds of human beings (The most faulty of witnesses.) - Yeah - seems far more likely.


I don't know. The doc who performed the autopsy allegedly never performed one before. Why give him arguably the most important one there was? Also, the brain going missing. Crap like that makes it rather difficult to believe the official account. I tend to lean towards the conspiracy side on this one.
 
2013-11-17 09:05:11 AM

BeatrixK: While you can't actually stand in the Oswald spot at the museum, you can stand in the window next to it...and even the crappiest of marksmen would have an easy shot - and it's farking close!


It was 265 feet. A moving target the size of a watermelon. A mediocre bolt action rifle. It was not an easy shot.

For comparison, the expert Navy Seals that saved Captain Philips towed the pirates close enough to have an easy shot. 75 feet.
 
2013-11-17 09:07:24 AM
Normal on the surface and twisted underneath. Sounds like Twin Peaks. Or anything David Lynch has done.
 
2013-11-17 09:08:45 AM

phenn: tirob: I'm sure that Greer was carrying a gun. Nobody saw it in his hand, though. And there were witnesses--notably Jean Hill and Mary Moorman--who were standing only a few feet away from the President's limousine when Greer turned his head.

John Barbour (was on Real People in the 1980s) did a documentary called The Garrison Files. I guess this was the inspiration for Oliver Stone's film.

Anywho, it's rather lengthy, but interesting. You can find it, in parts, on Youtube.

No, he doesn't speculate on Greer. But, the rest of the content is rather fascinating.


Haven't read it, nor have I seen Stone's film.  I *have* read American Grotesque, an account of Garrison's failed attempt to have Clay Shaw convicted of conspiracy.  Too bad that Stone didn't read that book too.

Garrison had nothing on Shaw or anyone else because there wasn't any conspiracy.  I sense that like most JFK conspiracy theorists (Josiah Thompson being the granddaddy of them all), Garrison had a look at the Zapruder film, decided that what he saw didn't line up with the Warren Commission's reconstruction of the assassination, and ran from there.  And I will be the first to concur with the idea that the WC's reconstruction was based in part on untenable assumptions, and that it was botched.  But I also think that Garrison--and most other JFK conspiracy theorists--fail to reckon with the possibility that the WC's main conclusion--that Oswald killed Kennedy by himself--was correct despite the fact that its assassination reconstruction was wrong.
 
2013-11-17 09:13:54 AM

badhatharry: BeatrixK: While you can't actually stand in the Oswald spot at the museum, you can stand in the window next to it...and even the crappiest of marksmen would have an easy shot - and it's farking close!

It was 265 feet. A moving target the size of a watermelon. A mediocre bolt action rifle. It was not an easy shot.

For comparison, the expert Navy Seals that saved Captain Philips towed the pirates close enough to have an easy shot. 75 feet.


"Mediocre" doesn't even begin to describe the rifle Oswald used. It was prone to jamming, the iron sights were seven kinds of meh, and its effective range wasn't all that great. A rifled musket may well have been a better option.
 
2013-11-17 09:16:15 AM
userserve-ak.last.fm
Back, and to the left.
 
2013-11-17 09:17:27 AM

snark puppet: enry: NOVA did an episode recently about a few of the JFK conspiracy theories and showed the magic bullet is indeed plausible.

One of my favorite show stopper questions for people dumping on the magic bullet theory is: Please explain just how did Connelly get his wounds, if not by the magic bullet? Most conspiracy theorists seem to want to ignore this facet of the assassination.


I was reading up on it recently and it seems to me that there's some confusion on what "Magic Bullet Theory" means.  If you mean a bullet that passes through Kennedy's throat and then through Connelly's shoulder, arm and hand, then yes, that's entirely possible.

But if you mean a bullet that did all that and then was found completely intact on the gurney at Parkland (which is what Arlen Specter originally proposed) then you're nuttier than the conspiracy theorists.

Why?  Simple answer is that Connelly still had shrapnel in his body when he died.  Which makes sense for a bullet which did all the damage it did.  But there's no way that bullet could then show up in perfect shape at the hospital.
 
2013-11-17 09:19:00 AM

badhatharry: It was 265 feet. A moving target the size of a watermelon. A mediocre bolt action rifle. It was not an easy shot.


That's only 88 yards, on a target that is at least 6 inches in diameter, and the apparent motion is minimal because the target was moving almost directly away from him.

It was an easy shot.
 
2013-11-17 09:21:38 AM

maram500: "Mediocre" doesn't even begin to describe the rifle Oswald used. It was prone to jamming, the iron sights were seven kinds of meh, and its effective range wasn't all that great. A rifled musket may well have been a better option.


People have taken the same shot with the same rife, and made it repeatedly.  Oswald had won marksmanship awards, and he had time to get used to whatever quirks his gun had.

Also, while the distances involved sound far, if you actually see them in person, it's a completely different situation.  Looking down from the sixth floor to the street, it doesn't seem that far at all.  And while the target was moving, it was constant motion at a walking pace (remember that the SS were walking alongside the car until the shots were fired).
 
2013-11-17 09:22:02 AM

maram500: "Mediocre" doesn't even begin to describe the rifle Oswald used. It was prone to jamming, the iron sights were seven kinds of meh, and its effective range wasn't all that great. A rifled musket may well have been a better option.


1.  No, Mannlicher Carcanos aren't especially prone to jamming.
2. He didn't use the open sights, he had a scope on it.
3. The effective range on that rifle was certainly greater than the 88 yards distance of the final shot.


And actually, yes, a rifled musket could have easily made that shot in the hands of anyone competent enough to hit a 6" target with open sights at less than 100 yards.
 
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