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(Business Insider)   Come on, Apple fans, it's time to admit the company is blowing it   (businessinsider.com) divider line 127
    More: Obvious, The Co-operative Group  
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6727 clicks; posted to Geek » on 16 Nov 2013 at 8:35 AM (44 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-16 08:41:09 AM
Meh. The only stuff they sell that's worth a damn these days are phones and tablets. As someone who has to support Macs (and Mac users), I wouldn't be too upset to see them tank for a while. Maybe then they'll come up with something new.
 
2013-11-16 08:43:04 AM
There's a lot of concern in that article.
 
2013-11-16 08:51:38 AM
I'm quite happy with my Samsung phone.
 
2013-11-16 08:52:50 AM
Which phones and tablets is the author referring to when he says that now all those companies are making phones/tablets as good (or better) for less?

I mean, the top end cell phones are all $200 with a two year contract ($100 or free for the year old model) and are $5-700 for outright. As for tablets, I like the Kindle Fires the most and they are cheaper than ipads, but I'm not sure they are the direct competitor to iPad.
 
2013-11-16 08:53:16 AM

Do you know who Garblox is: There's a lot of concern in that article.


When your sales growth is half the rate of market growth, it may be time to actually rethink what you're selling.
 
2013-11-16 08:55:22 AM

bulldg4life: but I'm not sure they are the direct competitor to iPad.


In a way that's kind of the thing. Apple is selling the iPad as the top of the heap tablet, yet for a lot of people any number of Android tablets give them what they want. And really when it comes to features, it's not like the iPad is way out ahead either.
 
2013-11-16 08:59:07 AM
In the first few years after the iPhone and iPad launched, Apple led the market not just in product quality but in product price. The iPhone and iPad were not just way better than the competition, they also cost the same or less.

This paragraph tells me the writer is clueless.
 
2013-11-16 09:00:14 AM
Oh my god who the hell cares?
 
2013-11-16 09:01:32 AM

stovepipe: Oh my god who the hell cares?


Anyone posting about it?
 
2013-11-16 09:02:34 AM

stovepipe: Oh my god who the hell cares?


People who think for long stretches at a time without stopping to sleep it off.
 
2013-11-16 09:03:04 AM
Meh, the smug still prevails, except when you remind Mac owners that Mac's are assembled with the junkiest components. Even when they tell me they love them (my brother included), I tell 'BS, you love the OS, the box itself is junk'.

/built my own since 1990.
 
2013-11-16 09:06:07 AM
90% of those users are at the University of Maine.

/the walled garden smug is epic there.
 
2013-11-16 09:07:36 AM
Why is that article addressing "Apple fans" like they should give a shiat what Apple's market share is? He should be addressing investors who are the only one to care about this stuff. As far as I read, Apple still has a lot of cash on hand and is still selling devices, if not as much as competitors.

I would have an iPhone now if Apple gave users the option to load media or manage the phone without using iTunes. Does the iPhone even use a browser-based solution? Because even this would be better.
 
2013-11-16 09:07:44 AM

WhyteRaven74: In a way that's kind of the thing. Apple is selling the iPad as the top of the heap tablet, yet for a lot of people any number of Android tablets give them what they want. And really when it comes to features, it's not like the iPad is way out ahead either.


So, the same Apple strategy for the past 25 years?

If you compare the iPhone or iPad to the top of the line phones/tablets, they usually lag 6 months behind in feature set but they have good better build quality and graphically perform better. I've never had an Apple computer, but I'm pretty sure that is how I would explain Apple for someone that had no idea what was going on.

Also, I really think Apple and Samsung are starting to cannibalize their own sales. They release a new version of their top end phones every 8 months. People had been on the 2 year plan for years, but the last few versions of iPhone have been good enough that the planned obsolescence they expected isn't bringing customers back right away. I looked at the list of Samsung Galaxy products and the wiki list is 30 entries long going back to mid-2009.
 
2013-11-16 09:09:59 AM

WhyteRaven74: Do you know who Garblox is: There's a lot of concern in that article.

When your sales growth is half the rate of market growth, it may be time to actually rethink what you're selling.


 They're running out of new and exciting ways to bilk people out of their money every time they release something new.  That, and the Apple mystique is suffering from too many fanbois and not enough Jobs.

\personally, don't do anything on a computer/tablet/phone that requires something only Apple does
\\that, and I have a friend who's a computer tech who renders my need for Apple entirely useless
 
2013-11-16 09:12:58 AM
Here's the story since the mid eighties:

Apple: Here's a cool thing, we'll sell it to you for a nice profit.

Wall Street: That's awesome, but your market share isn't growing as fast as we like.

Apple: Big deal. We sell plenty and make money.

Wall Street: But we are stupid and only care about growth.

Apple: That sounds like a personal problem. Catch ya later.

[Later]

Apple:
Here's another cool thing, we can sell it to you for a nice profit.

Wall Street: Wow, now you are selling two things: we call that growth, and it gives us a huge boner. We will now buy all your stocks.

Apple: Well, OK then. You do whatever it is you do, we'll be over here doing what we do. We are actually sitting on a huge mountain of cash and can live fine without the NASDAQ.

[Later]

Wall Street:
Hey, you stopped growing. What's up with that?

Apple: What? We're working on some stuff. Leave us alone.

Wall Street: Our boners went away. We're selling your stocks.

Apple: That's nice, but we're still making money (and still sitting on a huge mountain of cash). So, have fun, OK?

[Later]

Apple:
Here's a third cool thing, we can sell it to you for a nice profit.

[repeat endlessly]
 
2013-11-16 09:23:15 AM

WhyteRaven74: Do you know who Garblox is: There's a lot of concern in that article.

When your sales growth is half the rate of market growth, it may be time to actually rethink what you're selling.


Not really. Not at all, I'd say. Considering Apple takes 56% of the entire market profits. y'know, the actual things that actually matter to a company.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tonybradley/2013/11/15/android-dominates -m arket-share-but-apple-makes-all-the-money/

 Samsung is pretty much throwing phones out there. Phones of all kinds and types to create a level of volume where economies of scale start working on their favor.

So Apple has 12% and Samsung 32%? Okay, Apple has 56% of profits while Samsung has 53% (it goes higher than 100% because all the other players lost money).

So 56/12 = 4.67 and 53/32 = 1.65. So Apple is making 2.8 times what Samsung is making. Again, Apple is making 280% the money Samsung is making.

Yeah, I'm sure Apple is hurt :P

If you think they didn't foresee this becoming another Windows vs Mac situation you're deluded because almost everyone else knew that in the long run it would trend towards that.

The problem Apple has is coming with a new market to off-set Samsung's dominance. Steve Jobs isn't there and more than anything else, that was his true talent. The one thing he did himself, thinking and deciding where they should be going next.
 
2013-11-16 09:25:14 AM
Yes. They're completely blowing it. Only made 80 kajillion last quarter.
 
2013-11-16 09:25:48 AM

WhyteRaven74: When your sales growth is half the rate of market growth, it may be time to actually rethink what you're selling.


That's an incredibly naive way of thinking.
 
2013-11-16 09:26:04 AM
Oh no, Apple's market share is shrinking? I shudder to think what this is doing to their profit share... oh, wait, what's that? They're making money by the truckload? Oh, never mind.

Businesses that focus on  market share over  profit share are companies that don't want to succeed. Market share doesn't matter nearly as much as the real fundamentals.
 
2013-11-16 09:26:13 AM

bulldg4life: I looked at the list of Samsung Galaxy products and the wiki list is 30 entries long going back to mid-2009.


That long list of galaxy products spans a whole range of price options it's not like they are 30 generations of the galaxy line.  This is why Samsung is kicking Apple's ass in emerging markets, something Apple is trying to fix with the 5C.
 
2013-11-16 09:26:47 AM

aaronx: Here's the story since the mid eighties:

Apple: Here's a cool thing, we'll sell it to you for a nice profit.
...


Well done!
 
2013-11-16 09:31:54 AM

Without Fail: stovepipe: Oh my god who the hell cares?

Anyone posting about it?


So morons, ok gotcha.
 
2013-11-16 09:34:58 AM
You PC buttheads never stop, do you?
You're as bad as the Obamacare trolls.

/STFU.
 
2013-11-16 09:38:10 AM

aaronx: Here's the story since the mid eighties:...


It's the blueprint for most companies that make things, honestly.
 
2013-11-16 09:41:30 AM

bulldg4life: I looked at the list of Samsung Galaxy products and the wiki list is 30 entries long going back to mid-2009.


Well Galaxy covers more than just a phone, there's a few Galaxy tablets too.
 
2013-11-16 09:50:49 AM
I understand that, but that's sort of the point.

I mean, we're going to start questioning apple's market share like has been done for 30 years?

If you compare the iPhones to the top of the line cell phones instead of samsung's entire stable of products, they compare more than favorably. And that's what apple has always wanted.
 
2013-11-16 09:54:37 AM
"It is more likely that a rich man will get into heaven than an Apple fan will criticize the company." - Jesus
 
2013-11-16 09:54:47 AM

eatin' fetus: aaronx: Here's the story since the mid eighties:

Apple: Here's a cool thing, we'll sell it to you for a nice profit.
...

Well done!


Yep. They'll keep making money, and the vultures will keep complaining.
 
2013-11-16 09:54:48 AM

rocky_howard: WhyteRaven74: Do you know who Garblox is: There's a lot of concern in that article.

When your sales growth is half the rate of market growth, it may be time to actually rethink what you're selling.

Not really. Not at all, I'd say. Considering Apple takes 56% of the entire market profits. y'know, the actual things that actually matter to a company.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tonybradley/2013/11/15/android-dominates -m arket-share-but-apple-makes-all-the-money/

 Samsung is pretty much throwing phones out there. Phones of all kinds and types to create a level of volume where economies of scale start working on their favor.

So Apple has 12% and Samsung 32%? Okay, Apple has 56% of profits while Samsung has 53% (it goes higher than 100% because all the other players lost money).

So 56/12 = 4.67 and 53/32 = 1.65. So Apple is making 2.8 times what Samsung is making. Again, Apple is making 280% the money Samsung is making.

Yeah, I'm sure Apple is hurt :P

If you think they didn't foresee this becoming another Windows vs Mac situation you're deluded because almost everyone else knew that in the long run it would trend towards that.

The problem Apple has is coming with a new market to off-set Samsung's dominance. Steve Jobs isn't there and more than anything else, that was his true talent. The one thing he did himself, thinking and deciding where they should be going next.


That's why it's nice to own the best of both worlds: a lot of Apple stock, but none of their devices.

/although I would probably go for a 5"+ iPhone
 
2013-11-16 09:56:16 AM

t3knomanser: Oh no, Apple's market share is shrinking? I shudder to think what this is doing to their profit share... oh, wait, what's that? They're making money by the truckload? Oh, never mind.

Businesses that focus on  market share over  profit share are companies that don't want to succeed. Market share doesn't matter nearly as much as the real fundamentals.


Yeah, uh, that sort of thinking is pretty much how they effectively lost the PC market. Sure, they have some aficionados and they're still making a profit, but Macs nearly died as a brand.

The real question is, WTF is wrong with Apple that apparently Jobs is the only guy who could make it work?
 
2013-11-16 09:56:58 AM
There are a lot of people who want very badly to believe that Apple cannot live without Steve Jobs. It might become a self-fulfulling prophecy.
 
2013-11-16 09:57:15 AM

skinink: I would have an iPhone now if Apple gave users the option to load media or manage the phone without using iTunes. Does the iPhone even use a browser-based solution? Because even this would be better.


They're part-way there; you can now manage the device all on its lonesome, without having to sync it with another machine. It's not just what you're wanting, but it's better than it was.
 
2013-11-16 09:58:45 AM

DrSansabeltNoShiatSlacks: Meh, the smug still prevails, except when you remind Mac owners that Mac's are assembled with the junkiest components. Even when they tell me they love them (my brother included), I tell 'BS, you love the OS, the box itself is junk'.

/built my own since 1990.


cheaper components in a nice case is more accurate. However, I do love Apple for driving perfectly calibrated high resolution displays into the mainstream.
 
2013-11-16 09:58:45 AM

DrSansabeltNoShiatSlacks: Meh, the smug still prevails, except when you remind Mac owners that Mac's are assembled with the junkiest components. Even when they tell me they love them (my brother included), I tell 'BS, you love the OS, the box itself is junk'.

/built my own since 1990.


iMacs aren't made with junk components. They charge more than Dell would for the same components, but hardly junk.

Personally I'd go with the fact that iPhones are overpriced for what they can actually do and the specs they have. They're fashion accessories that happen to run iOS at this point.
 
2013-11-16 10:05:05 AM

starsrift: t3knomanser: Oh no, Apple's market share is shrinking? I shudder to think what this is doing to their profit share... oh, wait, what's that? They're making money by the truckload? Oh, never mind.

Businesses that focus on  market share over  profit share are companies that don't want to succeed. Market share doesn't matter nearly as much as the real fundamentals.

Yeah, uh, that sort of thinking is pretty much how they effectively lost the PC market. Sure, they have some aficionados and they're still making a profit, but Macs nearly died as a brand.

The real question is, WTF is wrong with Apple that apparently Jobs is the only guy who could make it work?


I still don't understand why people consider Apple to be not working now. They're purposefully not targeting the low end smartphone market because the profit margins are minuscule. They're still making insane amounts of money. As for innovation, I'm not sure its realistic to expect them to introduce a brand new market every few years.  It was only 6 years ago that smartphones were very niche.
 
2013-11-16 10:05:08 AM

starsrift: Yeah, uh, that sort of thinking is pretty much how they effectively lost the PC market. Sure, they have some aficionados and they're still making a profit, but Macs nearly died as a brand.


LOL QUE? If the Mac brand has been "dying" it's because Apple has pretty much abandoned the Desktop (although they have a new nice toy), but on the mobile front, MacBooks have been selling better than ever in the past few years to the point of becoming quite ubiquitous. They benefited a lot from the iPhone/iPod cachet.

I guess you're from Bizarro World and dying means thriving there, because reality doesn't agree with you like at all:

cdn.macrumors.com
 
2013-11-16 10:11:46 AM

feanorn: skinink: I would have an iPhone now if Apple gave users the option to load media or manage the phone without using iTunes. Does the iPhone even use a browser-based solution? Because even this would be better.

They're part-way there; you can now manage the device all on its lonesome, without having to sync it with another machine. It's not just what you're wanting, but it's better than it was.


starsrift: t3knomanser: Oh no, Apple's market share is shrinking? I shudder to think what this is doing to their profit share... oh, wait, what's that? They're making money by the truckload? Oh, never mind.

Businesses that focus on  market share over  profit share are companies that don't want to succeed. Market share doesn't matter nearly as much as the real fundamentals.

Yeah, uh, that sort of thinking is pretty much how they effectively lost the PC market. Sure, they have some aficionados and they're still making a profit, but Macs nearly died as a brand.

The real question is, WTF is wrong with Apple that apparently Jobs is the only guy who could make it work?


The answer is this: Jobs was a complete goatfarker who had a singular vision, and that's a rare combination. I don't respect the man for a lot of what he did, he was a complete arsehole at the best of times, but I will give him credit for having a very strong and principled idea of what electronics should do, how they should do it and how they should be positioned, and having the will to kick the shiat out of his employees to make that idea into a reality. There was genuine regard and thought given to the end-user experience and making a near-perfect product - Apple may not have achieved that, but it was Jobs' obsession and it's why they ate pretty much everyone else's lunch with the iPod, iPhone and iPad, because they refined and perfected things almost to a fault.

Cook meanwhile is not Steve Jobs. He does not appear to be a goatfarker, nor does he have any sort of vision. Jobs wanted skeuomorphs in his product designs to make them immediately familiar, and forced that through will onto iOS, OSX etc; it may not have been the  right thing per se but my point is he had the idea and forced it into being. Cook delegated and got Jony Ive to create the vomit stream of colour that is iOS 7. Cook isn't an innovator, he is someone who wants to sell more iPhones and views the iPhone 5S and the iPhone 5C as the means to that end, rather than an expression of his beliefs regarding UX and product design.

Like I say, there is a LOT to slate Apple and Jobs over. But when Jobs died Apple died with him.
 
2013-11-16 10:13:40 AM
The 15" retina MacBook Pro is the best computer I've ever owned, hands down. And I've gone through about 10 machines in the past decade.

Lightweight, solid as hell, and faster than any PC laptop I've ever used, ever. And I've yet to see a PC display even come close to the Retina screen. It was expensive, but premium products usually are.

Not an apple fanboy, just stating my opinion. Others may differ. That's okay.
 
2013-11-16 10:27:10 AM
If I played stocks I would go heavy on Apple right now. Tim Cook is playing the long game with the iPhone C vs S thing. Apple has its own processor, its own batteries, its own metal, glass, and plastic factories, its own OS, its own EVERYTHING, and now they're going to bifurcate the line. The fact that the 5C and 5S are mostly similar now, thus the people choose 5S, is irrelevant to the future, and in fact they most likely planned it to be this way. The C is the fun n' friendly face and the S is the big spender's model. The 6 body redesign will replace the 5S whose components which will be cheaper to manufacture than the 5C's are now. So next year you'll have your choice of a 5S that looks like a 5C, or a 6 that probably will have a bigger screen and a new processor. Don't look for a cheap off-contract iPhone, Apple doesn't play that game and they don't have to just because it would make you happy.  Meanwhile, the iPad is as fast as a top-end 2010 laptop and as power-efficient as next year's model for $500.
 
2013-11-16 10:27:57 AM

bulldg4life: Which phones and tablets is the author referring to when he says that now all those companies are making phones/tablets as good (or better) for less?

I mean, the top end cell phones are all $200 with a two year contract ($100 or free for the year old model) and are $5-700 for outright. As for tablets, I like the Kindle Fires the most and they are cheaper than ipads, but I'm not sure they are the direct competitor to iPad.


For phones, the Moto X is $100 on-contract.  The Galaxy S4 and HTC One are $200 on-contract, and offer radically different (sometimes better) value propositions with the larger screen.  The Nexus 5 is $350 off-contract, and the soon-to-be-released Moto G is $180 off-contract, and that's a segment where Apple has nothing competitive, which is a problem because that locks them out of many overseas markets (as pointed out in TFA) as well as a major growth segment in the US.

For tablets... you're kidding, right?  The new iPad Mini costs about twice as much as not only the Kindle Fire, but the Nexus 7, the Tegra Note 7, the Galaxy Tab 3 7.0, and a lot of other great 7-8 inch tablets.  Hell, it costs as much as the Nexus 10.
 
2013-11-16 10:43:15 AM

feanorn: eatin' fetus: aaronx: Here's the story since the mid eighties:

Apple: Here's a cool thing, we'll sell it to you for a nice profit.
...

Well done!

Yep. They'll keep making money, and the vultures will keep complaining.


They're sitting on a shiatload of cash too. Carl Icahn is just trying to put out FUD to make his takeover bid easier. Apple is doing just fine, thank you concern trolls. When they stop posting profits, then you can be concerned.
 
2013-11-16 10:47:14 AM
That was a very informative article.  I'm businessinally retarded, and yet, that dude explained everything very well, in very understandable ways.  Good for him.  I would give him potato dollars if I had money to invest.
 
2013-11-16 10:47:23 AM

rocky_howard: starsrift: Yeah, uh, that sort of thinking is pretty much how they effectively lost the PC market. Sure, they have some aficionados and they're still making a profit, but Macs nearly died as a brand.

LOL QUE? If the Mac brand has been "dying" it's because Apple has pretty much abandoned the Desktop (although they have a new nice toy), but on the mobile front, MacBooks have been selling better than ever in the past few years to the point of becoming quite ubiquitous. They benefited a lot from the iPhone/iPod cachet.

I guess you're from Bizarro World and dying means thriving there, because reality doesn't agree with you like at all:

[cdn.macrumors.com image 513x276]


Sorry, my history of Apple, Jobs, and the Mac goes back longer than seven years.
You do realize that if the iPhone hadn't been released and taken off, that graph would look very, very different, right?
 
2013-11-16 10:49:28 AM

dangelder: If I played stocks I would go heavy on Apple right now. Tim Cook is playing the long game with the iPhone C vs S thing. Apple has its own processor, its own batteries, its own metal, glass, and plastic factories, its own OS, its own EVERYTHING, and now they're going to bifurcate the line. The fact that the 5C and 5S are mostly similar now, thus the people choose 5S, is irrelevant to the future, and in fact they most likely planned it to be this way. The C is the fun n' friendly face and the S is the big spender's model. The 6 body redesign will replace the 5S whose components which will be cheaper to manufacture than the 5C's are now. So next year you'll have your choice of a 5S that looks like a 5C, or a 6 that probably will have a bigger screen and a new processor. Don't look for a cheap off-contract iPhone, Apple doesn't play that game and they don't have to just because it would make you happy.  Meanwhile, the iPad is as fast as a top-end 2010 laptop and as power-efficient as next year's model for $500.


The 5c is not exactly flying off the shelves and Apple cut deals with Walmart, Radio Shack, and Best Buy to sell them for 49 instead of 99 at contract price.  And out of the box they still cost 549.  Best Buy will also take any working smart phone in trade and give you a 100 dollars toward one.

AT ATT(where I am a tech manager) we activate more 4s's than we do the 5c and people want the regular 5 and are incensed when we tell them they are no longer manufactured.  No one likes the plastic Iphone.
 
2013-11-16 10:53:47 AM

Spadababababababa Spadina Bus: There are a lot of people who want very badly to believe that Apple cannot live without Steve Jobs. It might become a self-fulfulling prophecy.


They can survive without Jobs but they have to adapt.  Apple under Jobs was damn near a cult of personality. People bought Apple products because they were ordained and created by Jobs himself.  With him dead it's unlikely that model can continue; a new "cult leader" will come with new ideas and there will develop a schism within the existing base.  It's also unlikely that new charismatic leader could eclipse Jobs because the shadow of Steve will be ever present meaning the company can't reach new highs.

Someone upthread suggested a BMW type model, make marginally better products than the competitors and sell them at a price premium.  That's a model that works well for BMW but then Apple owners will be seen in the same light as BMW owners, semi-wealthy pricks. Oh wait...
 
2013-11-16 10:58:07 AM
 
2013-11-16 10:58:53 AM

dangelder: If I played stocks I would go heavy on Apple right now. Tim Cook is playing the long game with the iPhone C vs S thing. Apple has its own processor, its own batteries, its own metal, glass, and plastic factories, its own OS, its own EVERYTHING, and now they're going to bifurcate the line.


You should really read the article, and how the author points out that this is a weakness instead of a strength, because the iPhone is, at the end of the day, a platform, and open platforms are sexy right now for developers. This isn't like the desktop wars, where Apple could safely retreat to a position of, "Well, because Apple uses superior components, it remains the best platform for graphics work" deal.

You could still go heavy on Apple right now, though. But start dumping it in a year or two.
Google would be a much safer bet.
 
2013-11-16 11:00:07 AM
So, isn't Apple starting up more manufacturing in the US? iMacs and a glass factory? I'd buy a US-made iMac over any Dell or whatever and I'd buy an iPhone with glass made in AZ before I'd buy a Samsung that is completely made in China. At this point, all the smart phones do pretty much whatever I'd want so there isn't any big deal there.
 
2013-11-16 11:01:03 AM

DrSansabeltNoShiatSlacks: Meh, the smug still prevails, except when you remind Mac owners that Mac's are assembled with the junkiest components. Even when they tell me they love them (my brother included), I tell 'BS, you love the OS, the box itself is junk'.

/built my own since 1990.


I'm sure your Mom is proud.

There are just as many asshole Apple detractors as allegedly smug Apple users.
 
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