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(Washington Times)   Obama administration to steal money from farmers by cutting Ethanol requirements   (washingtontimes.com) divider line 162
    More: Interesting, EPA, Obama administration, Obama, Renewable Fuels Association, gas producer, farmers, ethanol, energy market  
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2161 clicks; posted to Politics » on 16 Nov 2013 at 9:25 AM (21 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-16 02:24:16 AM
Good
 
2013-11-16 06:44:53 AM
FTA: "In a move likely to anger corn farmers..."

Fark corn farmers. If you can't make a living in the free market, get a different job.
 
2013-11-16 07:51:39 AM
Thanks BigOilbama.
 
2013-11-16 08:13:08 AM
Ethanol was huge scam. This is a good thing, please millions of drivers and piss off a thousand farmers.
 
2013-11-16 08:15:13 AM

BizarreMan: Good


Not that I'm usually one to do this, but the WT would say "Obama to destroy cars" if he kept up the 15% bullshiat.

Also, when I used to be able to get 100% gasoline, I would get between 5% and 10% better mileage on it. So in effect, I was not using any less oil for the use of ethanol. What I did notice was less water in fuel. Ethanol absorbs the water out of the tanks.
 
2013-11-16 08:38:25 AM

EvilEgg: Ethanol was huge scam. This is a good thing, please millions of drivers and piss off a thousand farmers.


You know where they grow corn?

Iowa.

First state in the primaries.

Obama's not gettin' a third term.
 
2013-11-16 08:50:22 AM

vygramul: EvilEgg: Ethanol was huge scam. This is a good thing, please millions of drivers and piss off a thousand farmers.

You know where they grow corn?

Iowa.

First state in the primaries.

Obama's not gettin' a third term.


Which reminds me of a crackpot theory I came up with a long time ago - the order of state primaries could be decided much like the NBA lottery.

You throw out any state with more than 15 electoral votes (because they're too expensive to run a campaign in), and the remaining states get a number of ping-pong balls proportioned first by how long it's been since they've held an early primary, with a small variance by size (smaller states get a couple more balls).

The event is held in late summer-early fall a little over a year before the actual election, so you can't piss off the residents in any one state more than 15 months before the election.

And while I'm High Lord Commissioner of All Election Processes, I'm also mandating nation-wide open primaries, because we're all tired of candidates having to pander to the extremes.
 
2013-11-16 08:53:44 AM
Corn is one of the least efficient, least productive ways of making biofuels.  Plus it has the added bonus of taking product out of the food market, thus forcing food prices up.  So yeah, good.
 
2013-11-16 09:05:46 AM

jake_lex: Corn is one of the least efficient, least productive ways of making biofuels.  Plus it has the added bonus of taking product out of the food market, thus forcing food prices up.  So yeah, good.


Corn by itself doesn't make money - the money is in selling it as feed for livestock.

Brazil decided to go with sugar cane ethanol instead.  It's much more efficient, but the side effect is flattening thousands of acres of rainforest to grow the stuff.
 
2013-11-16 09:30:56 AM
Propose federal funding for research into using hemp as a source of biofuels. They grew that stuff all over the midwest during WWII.
 
2013-11-16 09:31:26 AM
King Corn

A documentary of the corn growing industry. (90 min)

Two Boston guys move to Iowa to grow a single acre of corn to learn more about the farming industry, where corn comes from and where it goes.
=Smidge=
 
2013-11-16 09:31:29 AM
Ethanol for gasoline is a waste of resources

It was a bad idea then and it is a bad idea now
 
2013-11-16 09:32:08 AM
This means something bad for America if obama did it.
 
2013-11-16 09:32:51 AM

BizarreMan: Good


Good would be eliminating them.

This is just OK.
 
2013-11-16 09:33:04 AM
I'm OK with this, although the bigger check every fall from ADM was nice.  It was my once-a-year Faustian moment.
 
2013-11-16 09:33:22 AM
Great. Corn should be eaten, not burn.
 
2013-11-16 09:34:26 AM

jake_lex: Corn is one of the least efficient, least productive ways of making biofuels.  Plus it has the added bonus of taking product out of the food market, thus forcing food prices up.  So yeah, good.


Yep. Not to mention corn is hell on the ecosystems of some of the places it's being farmed. Hello dustbowl 2.0
 
2013-11-16 09:34:31 AM

cman: Ethanol for gasoline is a waste of resources

It was a bad idea then and it is a bad idea now


I was a good idea when people could use leftover to make cheaper fuel. It's a bad idea to make a subsidized industry out of it.
 
2013-11-16 09:34:36 AM
Ethanol needs to go away.

If my old motorcycle sits for more than three or four days, I have to drain the carbs to get the water out of them.
 
2013-11-16 09:37:15 AM

Urbn: jake_lex: Corn is one of the least efficient, least productive ways of making biofuels.  Plus it has the added bonus of taking product out of the food market, thus forcing food prices up.  So yeah, good.

Yep. Not to mention corn is hell on the ecosystems of some of the places it's being farmed. Hello dustbowl 2.0


Have you seen Ken Burns' Dust Bowl documentary?  Every damn thing we learned (and most of the corrective measures undertaken by the DoAg) we've either ignored, forgotten, or circumvented.
 
2013-11-16 09:37:30 AM
If you can find a vehicle to run that E85 stuff in, it's about a dollar cheaper.

When the fuel shortage returns, which it will, ethanol will suddenly be popular again.
 
2013-11-16 09:38:47 AM
It would make more sense to mandate that all car electronics be run off a solar charged battery.
 
2013-11-16 09:41:14 AM

jake_lex: Corn is one of the least efficient, least productive ways of making biofuels.  Plus it has the added bonus of taking product out of the food market, thus forcing food prices up.  So yeah, good.


Dear Africa,

We know you're starving and all, but we thought you'd like to know that over here, in America, the Greatest Country of All Time, we grow food to put in our gas tanks, so fark you very much.

P.S. Move where the food is.
 
2013-11-16 09:46:21 AM

UNC_Samurai: Urbn: jake_lex: Corn is one of the least efficient, least productive ways of making biofuels.  Plus it has the added bonus of taking product out of the food market, thus forcing food prices up.  So yeah, good.

Yep. Not to mention corn is hell on the ecosystems of some of the places it's being farmed. Hello dustbowl 2.0

Have you seen Ken Burns' Dust Bowl documentary?  Every damn thing we learned (and most of the corrective measures undertaken by the DoAg) we've either ignored, forgotten, or circumvented.


That documentary was intense. If we're going to subsidize farming (because farm subsidies = bootstrappiness) , the money should go to farmers who enact reasonable crop rotations and soil preservation techniques.
 
2013-11-16 09:46:30 AM

Dog Welder: jake_lex: Corn is one of the least efficient, least productive ways of making biofuels.  Plus it has the added bonus of taking product out of the food market, thus forcing food prices up.  So yeah, good.

Dear Africa,

We know you're starving and all, but we thought you'd like to know that over here, in America, the Greatest Country of All Time, we grow food to put in our gas tanks, so fark you very much.

P.S. Move where the food is.


It's silage corn
Slow your self righteous roll there
 
2013-11-16 09:47:52 AM
Sugar cane, idiots. Sugar cane.
 
2013-11-16 09:50:10 AM

Doktor_Zhivago: Dog Welder: jake_lex: Corn is one of the least efficient, least productive ways of making biofuels.  Plus it has the added bonus of taking product out of the food market, thus forcing food prices up.  So yeah, good.

Dear Africa,

We know you're starving and all, but we thought you'd like to know that over here, in America, the Greatest Country of All Time, we grow food to put in our gas tanks, so fark you very much.

P.S. Move where the food is.

It's silage corn
Slow your self righteous roll there


What exactly do you think we do with silage ????
 
2013-11-16 09:52:06 AM

BMFPitt: Good would be eliminating them.

This is just OK.


Getting all down on a person's action because it doesn't completely cure the related problem is what Ted Cruz was doing when he shut down the government.
- "His way" was to get rid of Obamacare completely.
- Even incremental progress towards his way was unacceptable, and he jeered his fellow Republicans who tried it as compromising their beliefs.

Incremental progress towards an admirable goal is good.
Please don't go full Ted Cruz.
 
2013-11-16 09:54:06 AM

edmo: If you can find a vehicle to run that E85 stuff in, it's about a dollar cheaper.

When the fuel shortage returns, which it will, ethanol will suddenly be popular again.


That's not true here. Regardless of price, E85 runs about 20% cheaper here in Indiana(and we're in the middle of corn country). Although it's been a few years since I had an E85 vehicle, my friends and family who do have them say the efficiency hasn't changed. You get about 20-30% lower fuel economy on E85. At best it's break even, and(in my experience) you often come out poorer by using it. Whatever the argument FOR ethanol is, financial benefit ain't it.
 
2013-11-16 09:54:51 AM
Growing in up in the Chino Valley before it urbanized, I can tell you that farmers and dairymen always have a sob story about how they are just barely getting by ... with 3 houses, 5 cars, world vacations yearly ...
 
2013-11-16 09:55:41 AM
Who'd have thought that the biofuel lobbyists could compete with their petroleum counterparts for being self-serving, entitled douchbags?  But there it is, in black and white.
 
2013-11-16 09:57:14 AM
You're welcome to eat silage. I'm good.

The argument that people are starving but we use corn to feed cows or we use corn to make thanksgiving decorations or we use corn to make packaging or we use corn to do xyz is childish and overly simplistic.
 
ecl
2013-11-16 09:57:33 AM

Doktor_Zhivago: Dog Welder: jake_lex: Corn is one of the least efficient, least productive ways of making biofuels.  Plus it has the added bonus of taking product out of the food market, thus forcing food prices up.  So yeah, good.

Dear Africa,

We know you're starving and all, but we thought you'd like to know that over here, in America, the Greatest Country of All Time, we grow food to put in our gas tanks, so fark you very much.

P.S. Move where the food is.

It's silage corn
Slow your self righteous roll there


Is silage corn grown differently or just harvested differently?
 
2013-11-16 10:01:24 AM

T. Dawg: UNC_Samurai: Urbn: jake_lex: Corn is one of the least efficient, least productive ways of making biofuels.  Plus it has the added bonus of taking product out of the food market, thus forcing food prices up.  So yeah, good.

Yep. Not to mention corn is hell on the ecosystems of some of the places it's being farmed. Hello dustbowl 2.0

Have you seen Ken Burns' Dust Bowl documentary?  Every damn thing we learned (and most of the corrective measures undertaken by the DoAg) we've either ignored, forgotten, or circumvented.

That documentary was intense. If we're going to subsidize farming (because farm subsidies = bootstrappiness) , the money should go to farmers who enact reasonable crop rotations and soil preservation techniques.


Yeah, it's one of Burns' best.  I knew the Dust Bowl was bad, but holy shiat it was damn near apocalyptic.

Ken Burns usually avoids making too direct links between the past and what's going on now, but I think that documentary was kind of aimed at climate change deniers.  It showed that human activity can cause environmental catastrophe, and we're doing things to the environment  on a far larger scale than those farmers in Oklahoma.
 
2013-11-16 10:06:15 AM
Good. Ethanol, as it stands, mostly from corn, is a crock. It MAY be net energy positive, but it is very difficult to prove that because the process is so complex; for example you have to factor in the fuel used for production and transport and fertilizer production and wear and tear on that equipment and energy needed to produce more equipment blah blah. It is not a clear easy to explain net energy "win".  Now ethanol from some other source such as cellulose might be OK some day once production gets going, but the process is not there yet. Solar efficiency keeps improving, and it makes no sense to keep subsidizing a process that does not look like it is going to get more efficient any time soon.
 
2013-11-16 10:07:30 AM

Doktor_Zhivago: You're welcome to eat silage. I'm good.

The argument that people are starving but we use corn to feed cows or we use corn to make thanksgiving decorations or we use corn to make packaging or we use corn to do xyz is childish and overly simplistic.


I think the argument is based on the economic notion that if there weren't an artificial market for silage, then the next economically feasible alternative would be grown by the farmer who needs something to put into his field.
There's lots of talk just in this thread about sugar cane.  (I'd pick sugar beets, but that's just a personal preference.)  If that was produced, that could be used for food.  Instead, we've created an artificial market to grow plants for something other than food.
 
2013-11-16 10:09:14 AM

rolladuck: artificial market to grow plants for something other than food


like cotton or alfalfa or flax or clover or any of the thousands of plants people grow for purposes other than food.
 
2013-11-16 10:09:50 AM
Omg or pine trees.. people grow pine trees for paper and lumber on land that could be used to feed starving africans
 
2013-11-16 10:10:21 AM
jake_lex:

Ken Burns usually avoids making too TRIES TO INSINUATE direct links between the past and what's going on now, but I think that documentary was kind of aimed at climate change deniers.

Go watch Prohibition and see if you don't see the very direct parallels between the old Temperance Movement and the current Tea Party absolutionists. Ken Burns doesn't actually state the links, but he very clearly wants people to see the repetition of history (and political tactics of the era) in a modern context.
 
2013-11-16 10:12:28 AM

Doktor_Zhivago: You're welcome to eat silage. I'm good.

The argument that people are starving but we use corn to feed cows or we use corn to make thanksgiving decorations or we use corn to make packaging or we use corn to do xyz is childish and overly simplistic.


Your flippant comment was that silage corn isn't meant for humans.   No, it is food for animals.    Animals grown for...
wait for it.... humans.

maybe you just care about $$$ of corn.  And have no concerns about people starving.   Your perogative, businessman.
 
2013-11-16 10:13:55 AM
I HEARD PEOPLE GROW PLANTS IN THEIR YARDS JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE PRETTY
THAT COULD BE CORN FOR STARVING AFRICANS
 
2013-11-16 10:14:31 AM
Everyone here like bacon?  Lets try this then. More feed available at lower prices = more pigs = more bacon.

Yea Bacon.
 
2013-11-16 10:18:08 AM

KarmicDisaster: Good. Ethanol, as it stands, mostly from corn, is a crock. It MAY be net energy positive, but it is very difficult to prove that because the process is so complex; for example you have to factor in the fuel used for production and transport and fertilizer production and wear and tear on that equipment and energy needed to produce more equipment blah blah. It is not a clear easy to explain net energy "win".  Now ethanol from some other source such as cellulose might be OK some day once production gets going, but the process is not there yet. Solar efficiency keeps improving, and it makes no sense to keep subsidizing a process that does not look like it is going to get more efficient any time soon.


To give you a hint as to how energy intensive making fertilizer is, ...
For a medium-sized facility (1000 tons per day of ammonia), you're looking at an annual power bill of about $2 Million.  That doesn't include all the natural gas that is consumed as the feedstock for the process and for the steam needed to run the plant... which is closer to $100 Million for a year.
The idea that someone would think that we could take all this fuel, convert it to another form, dump it on our crops, to grow them, and then harvest them and put them through yet another processing plant to turn them into a gasoline substitute is Beyond Insane!
Even the most efficient processing plants and farming techniques still result in about a 1.4:1 input:output ratio.
You would be far better off compressing that natural gas and putting it directly into an vehicle engine designed to run it.  In that case, you could get about a 0.2:1 input:output ratio.  It's still not quite on par with gasoline, but it's cleaner, and we have far more proven reserves.

Here's to hoping fusion pans out!
 
2013-11-16 10:19:39 AM
Awwwww... Poor Archer Daniels Midland Company. I'll hold a bake sale for them.
 
ecl
2013-11-16 10:19:54 AM

netcentric: Doktor_Zhivago: You're welcome to eat silage. I'm good.

The argument that people are starving but we use corn to feed cows or we use corn to make thanksgiving decorations or we use corn to make packaging or we use corn to do xyz is childish and overly simplistic.

Your flippant comment was that silage corn isn't meant for humans.   No, it is food for animals.    Animals grown for...
wait for it.... humans.

maybe you just care about $$$ of corn.  And have no concerns about people starving.   Your perogative, businessman.


He's busy showing what a retard he is.
 
2013-11-16 10:21:07 AM

Doktor_Zhivago: rolladuck: artificial market to grow plants for something other than food

like cotton or alfalfa or flax or clover or any of the thousands of plants people grow for purposes other than food.

.
Those don't have an artificial market created to subsidize a small segment of the already quite successful farming industry.
What we're doing would be as stupid as paying professional athletes a tax break because they only work for part of the year, or because they travel long distances for their work, or whatever other stupid basis on which you could offer a subsidy.
 
2013-11-16 10:21:15 AM
But I like getting paying slightly less at the pump and getting the slightly less miles per gallon that ethanol provides. Less demand for corn will probably lower feed corn prices and that will make a lot of other food prices go down. This is a travesty.
 
2013-11-16 10:22:42 AM

rolladuck: Getting all down on a person's action because it doesn't completely cure the related problem is what Ted Cruz was doing when he shut down the government.
- "His way" was to get rid of Obamacare completely.
- Even incremental progress towards his way was unacceptable, and he jeered his fellow Republicans who tried it as compromising their beliefs.


I said that this baby step towards a baby step was OK.

Incremental progress towards an admirable goal is good.
Please don't go full Ted Cruz.


Depends on the increment.
 
2013-11-16 10:24:05 AM
Remember how hydrogen and ethanol were suppose to be the future of transportation? Hah. Also, finally. I'm not sure how anyone can suggest that ethanol was ever going to be a practical fuel, and the farmers if they're upset at all are just asking for a handout. No thank you.
 
2013-11-16 10:25:15 AM

OregonVet: Thanks BigOilbama.


He caved to the GOP again who been whining about using corn for fuel since the beginning of 2009 (some sort of really weird event must have happened then.) Now the farmers will get out of giving it over to fuel and ruining our car engines and corn prices will go down to help people eat it or so I been told on several hundred occasions.

Obama caves in on everything. Well apart from killing bin Laden and a few other things, but most stuff. He gives in straight away.
 
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