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(CBS Los Angeles 2)   LA Police: "Hey, this TSA agent still has a pulse. Let's let him bleed out for over a half an hour so we can bump these charges up to a murder rap"   (losangeles.cbslocal.com) divider line 155
    More: Dumbass, TSA, Los Angeles, TSA agents, U.S. state abbreviations, Los Angeles Police Department, trauma surgeon, Los Angeles Fire Department, old paul  
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14948 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Nov 2013 at 7:34 PM (48 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



155 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-11-15 06:42:10 PM  
img.fark.net
 
2013-11-15 06:52:12 PM  
Ah, the LAPD.

All that is finest in bad police work. Keep up the good jorb, guys.
 
2013-11-15 07:16:48 PM  

Gig103: [img.fark.net image 604x358]


Yep, a father and husband is dead. This is a good thing because Fark doesn't like who he worked for.
 
2013-11-15 07:29:50 PM  

change1211: Gig103: [img.fark.net image 604x358]

Yep, a father and husband is dead. This is a good thing because Fark doesn't like who he worked for.


To be fair, NOBODY likes the TSA and even The Iceman was married with kids.

southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com
It's still a crying shame the LAPD gets to continue existing as they do without major reform from an external source higher up the food chain. They are constantly farking up like this.
 
2013-11-15 07:38:25 PM  
OK, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here:

25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-11-15 07:40:00 PM  
I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.
 
2013-11-15 07:40:44 PM  
"We need a serious reexamination of TSA's screening area security policies to stop the next tragedy before it happens. The inconsistent patchwork of local law enforcement and security protocols simply won't get the job done. We need a dedicated TSA law enforcement unit tasked with protecting Transportation Security Officers and the flying public around our vulnerable screening areas. An immediate threat requires an immediate response, and we can't afford to be taken off-guard again."

Bullshait.

What we "need" is to lose the attitude and feeling that we can be 100% safe all the farking time.
 
2013-11-15 07:41:28 PM  

change1211: Gig103: [img.fark.net image 604x358]

Yep, a father and husband is dead. This is a good thing because Fark doesn't like who he worked for.


Pretty obnoxious if I do say so.
 
2013-11-15 07:41:32 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.


I don't remember anyone at the airport fondling my nutsack pre-9/11 or using advanced technology to see me naked.
 
2013-11-15 07:41:35 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.


I get the hatred for the TSA, but it doesn't hold a candle to the malfeasance of the LAPD.
 
2013-11-15 07:43:00 PM  
I think that Gig103 misunderstood the article, or headline. Either that, or his moranity is off the scale.
 
2013-11-15 07:43:16 PM  

lockers: change1211: Gig103: [img.fark.net image 604x358]

Yep, a father and husband is dead. This is a good thing because Fark doesn't like who he worked for.

Pretty obnoxious if I do say so.


So is the headline if we're going there
 
2013-11-15 07:43:51 PM  
First of all, its not a policeman's job to administer first aid, its their job in a situation as this, to secure the area, and that takes time. They have guns, and are able to defend themselves. The paramedics do not. So, you don't let in the medical people until you have made sure it is safe. No point adding more victims to a already bad situation. It has been this way forever, and as a retired police officer, it makes sense to me. No point in letting others in, before you had taken control of the situation, and made sure it is safe. But i guess that doesn't matter to the trolltastic headline.
If we had let them in to help the guy, and the shooter (or shooters, they didn't know) shot the paramedics, the trolls would have been screaming "why didnt you make sure it was safe? Waaahhhhhhhh." Can't win, so you do what makes sense and hope for the best.
 
2013-11-15 07:44:04 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.

I don't remember anyone at the airport fondling my nutsack pre-9/11 or using advanced technology to see me naked.


My nutsack hasn't been fondled at the airport ever, though the closest it came was pre-9/11 when they used the metal detector wands.
 
2013-11-15 07:44:14 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.



Granted, I've never experience the really shiatty scenarios like other people, but come one...there is a definite difference.

/I F*CKING hate long lines.
//Would rather get molestation pat-down by a TSA agent than wait in line for long time.
///Fully realize I'm in the minority, and realize that most people don't want to get molested in a security line.
////Just loathed long lines ever since I was a little kid.
 
2013-11-15 07:44:21 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful


Have you ever tried to be rude while fondling people's family members and stealing their stuff from luggage? They tend to get angry.
 
2013-11-15 07:45:00 PM  
forgive my ignorance, but where did all the other TSA people go when this started? I kind of imagine a George Costanza-esque stampede of TSA agents over the top of old ladies and children.

oh yeah, almost forgot, LAPD sucks...again
 
2013-11-15 07:45:15 PM  
Well the LAPD had to be sure they weren't giving too much care to a suspect. Being wounded and unarmed doesn't mean he doesn't pose a threat. They figured let him die and we'll figure it out later.
 
2013-11-15 07:45:27 PM  
This wasn't a LAPD thing; this was probably a homeland security theater thing. The paramedics probably had to go through additional screening because they were "randomly selected".
 
2013-11-15 07:46:04 PM  

Gig103: [img.fark.net image 604x358]


10/10

Great troll!
 
2013-11-15 07:47:32 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: My nutsack hasn't been fondled at the airport ever, though the closest it came was pre-9/11 when they used the metal detector wands.


Mine has on two occasions when I was unlucky enough to get a random "SSSS" on my boarding pass.
 
2013-11-15 07:47:54 PM  
I am imagining him on the floor bleeding with an outstrechted hand imploring a nearby officer "help meeeee you arsehole" and the cop is like "that is not my official duty"....not saying it happened that way but it would be a heinous situation.
 
2013-11-15 07:47:56 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.


You sound Caucasian.
 
2013-11-15 07:48:21 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Prank Call of Cthulhu: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.

I don't remember anyone at the airport fondling my nutsack pre-9/11 or using advanced technology to see me naked.

My nutsack hasn't been fondled at the airport ever, though the closest it came was pre-9/11 when they used the metal detector wands.


Your choice....

This
img.fark.net
Or this.....
img.fark.net
 
2013-11-15 07:48:54 PM  
Okay, this was a giant clusterf*ck, but really saying someone is "only" 150 yards away when it's unknown if there's other shooters, or bombs.  If you go out to help someone and you get shot too, now there's two victims and less people to respond or secure the area.
 
2013-11-15 07:48:55 PM  
It's not known when Hernandez died or if immediate medical attention could have saved his life, but McClain said unless a person is decapitated, a doctor must declare someone dead.

What.
 
2013-11-15 07:49:09 PM  

iheartscotch: This wasn't a LAPD thing; this was probably a homeland security theater thing. The paramedics probably had to go through additional screening because they were "randomly selected".


Lol.

That said, in reality tactical doctrine is to bypass giving aid to wounded and go directly towards the active shooter to isolate and neutralize him. Until that's done, in the absence of a tactical paramedic team, the priority is stopping the shooting and THEN treating victims.
 
2013-11-15 07:49:15 PM  

tetsoushima: OK, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here:

[25.media.tumblr.com image 500x375]


Yes, it's what you think it was. Next question.
 
2013-11-15 07:49:25 PM  
Win-win, I'd say.
 
2013-11-15 07:49:38 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.


There's some what-you-give-what-you-get there.  Like you, I've never had the slightest issue with TSA workers, 50/50 split of actually-polite and bored-as-fark, largely determined by time of the day.

On the other hand, I flew with my father a few times in the TSA era.  He always had issues with basically any sort of authority.  Would not for the life of him go, "okay, I'm going to be going through security eventually, how about I tuck my car keys/coins/belt in my carry-on well in advance, have an ID/boarding pass ready, and have my shoes ready to come off".  Nope, he felt the need to walk through the metal detector and set it off three times, slow down the lines, so he could get indignant about it and lippy to some $10/hour slob, who invariably got attitude back to him.
 
2013-11-15 07:50:37 PM  

LessO2: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Prank Call of Cthulhu: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.

I don't remember anyone at the airport fondling my nutsack pre-9/11 or using advanced technology to see me naked.

My nutsack hasn't been fondled at the airport ever, though the closest it came was pre-9/11 when they used the metal detector wands.

Your choice....

This

Or this.....


Ha, I've gotten neither post-9/11. I love the body scanners, they take much less time than the wand.
 
2013-11-15 07:50:46 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.


I understand that people don't like the TSA.  I don't get the part where folks think that a dead work-a-day shlub and his now fatherless children put the cosmos in balance or whatever.
 
2013-11-15 07:51:13 PM  

doyner: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.

I get the hatred for the TSA, but it doesn't hold a candle to the malfeasance of the LAPD.


Just another Perfect Storm of stupid and incompetent.

Move along. Except you TSA TSOs. This is the support you can expect from your "employer". You should quit.
 
2013-11-15 07:52:22 PM  
Hernandez?  No wonder they let him die.
 
2013-11-15 07:52:48 PM  

Pichu0102: It's not known when Hernandez died or if immediate medical attention could have saved his life, but McClain said unless a person is decapitated, a doctor must declare someone dead.

What.


The doctor has to sign the death certificate. A Paramedic or RN can declare someone dead when they meet criteria in their Guidelines/Standing Orders.

Don't expect the news media to get it right. They have to sensationalize.

PanicMan: Okay, this was a giant clusterf*ck, but really saying someone is "only" 150 yards away when it's unknown if there's other shooters, or bombs.  If you go out to help someone and you get shot too, now there's two victims and less people to respond or secure the area.


THIS.

Unless you have someone who is a Paramedic or EMT on a tactical team and is trained to operate under fire, or you have a spare Law Enforcement officer trained in LE Weeners Tactical Casuality Care,you're not going to care for them until the shooter is neutralized.

Remember that scene from ROTLD, where he says "Send more paramedics?" That's what active shooters want. Unarmed rescuers they can add to their body count. Kill the shooter, save lives.
 
2013-11-15 07:53:22 PM  
McClain

Yippee-ki-yay, motherfarker.
 
2013-11-15 07:53:28 PM  

PanicMan: Okay, this was a giant clusterf*ck, but really saying someone is "only" 150 yards away when it's unknown if there's other shooters, or bombs.  If you go out to help someone and you get shot too, now there's two victims and less people to respond or secure the area.


What a bunch of farking jackwagons.

Of course it is a medic's job to make house calls.
 
2013-11-15 07:53:33 PM  
Whelp. I got filterpwned.
 
2013-11-15 07:54:58 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: First of all, its not a policeman's job to administer first aid, its their job in a situation as this, to secure the area, and that takes time. They have guns, and are able to defend themselves. The paramedics do not. So, you don't let in the medical people until you have made sure it is safe. No point adding more victims to a already bad situation. It has been this way forever, and as a retired police officer, it makes sense to me. No point in letting others in, before you had taken control of the situation, and made sure it is safe. But i guess that doesn't matter to the trolltastic headline. If we had let them in to help the guy, and the shooter (or shooters, they didn't know) shot the paramedics, the trolls would have been screaming "why didnt you make sure it was safe? Waaahhhhhhhh." Can't win, so you do what makes sense and hope for the best.


FTFA (tyodfr):


It would be 33 minutes before airport police would put Hernandez, who was about 20 feet from an exit, in a wheelchair and run him to an ambulance, said the officials, who were briefed on the investigation and spoke on condition of anonymity because the probe was still ongoing. For all but five of those minutes, there was no threat from the suspected gunman - he had been shot and was in custody, they said.


It is clear that the LAPD stood around with their thumbs up their asses, while a major crime victim was left to bleed out on the floor. It is obvious that the LAPD and likely most other Police Departments in the country are more concerned with following rote behaviors about security rather than bother to actually, you know, HELP THE GUY.


Crimenentlies.
 
2013-11-15 07:56:16 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.


Personally, I hate the organization more than the actual players.  I don't necessarily dislike the actual TSA employees but I despise the kabuki theater that the TSA entity is.
 
2013-11-15 07:57:09 PM  

snocone: What a bunch of farking jackwagons.

Of course it is a medic's job to make house calls.


It's not a Paramedic's job to play Rescue Randy and rush in to save the day when someone is gunning down people. All he does is become another victim, and take away from the resources needed to care for people already hurt on scene. Disobeying a stage for PD announcement will cost you your job on a major incident, and could cost you your license if someone is hurt because of your actions.

If you don't have the training and equipment to make the scene relatively safe for you and your partner, you hold until it's done for you. No one benefits from freelancing on major incidents, and there are ample historical precedents for people losing everything.
 
2013-11-15 07:58:31 PM  

LessO2: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Prank Call of Cthulhu: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.

I don't remember anyone at the airport fondling my nutsack pre-9/11 or using advanced technology to see me naked.

My nutsack hasn't been fondled at the airport ever, though the closest it came was pre-9/11 when they used the metal detector wands.

Your choice....

This
[img.fark.net image 500x500]
Or this.....
[img.fark.net image 500x300]



You forgot THIS
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-11-15 07:59:34 PM  
hardinparamedic:

PanicMan: Okay, this was a giant clusterf*ck, but really saying someone is "only" 150 yards away when it's unknown if there's other shooters, or bombs.  If you go out to help someone and you get shot too, now there's two victims and less people to respond or secure the area.

THIS.

Unless you have someone who is a Paramedic or EMT on a tactical team and is trained to operate under fire, or you have a spare Law Enforcement officer trained in LE Weeners Tactical Casuality Care,you're not going to care for them until the shooter is neutralized.

Remember that scene from ROTLD, where he says "Send more paramedics?" That's what active shooters want. Unarmed rescuers they can add to their body count. Kill the shooter, save lives.


But in this instance it sounds like the delay wasn't a matter of securing the scene, it was that an officer believed the guy was dead thereby delaying care.  I'm sure he could have been wheeled out much quicker, and you know he would have been if it had been a LAPD officer.
 
2013-11-15 07:59:47 PM  

Deathfrogg: It is obvious that the LAPD and likely most other Police Departments in the country are more concerned with following rote behaviors about security rather than bother to actually, you know, HELP THE GUY.


Not trying to defend the LAPD in the least (fark those guys.), but most SWAT operators aren't medically trained beyond buddy aid. The guy who failed to call scene secure on the radio to let in the EMS guys ought to get punished though.
 
2013-11-15 08:00:22 PM  

hardinparamedic: It's not a Paramedic's job to play Rescue Randy and rush in to save the day when someone is gunning down people. All he does is become another victim, and take away from the resources needed to care for people already hurt on scene. Disobeying a stage for PD announcement will cost you your job on a major incident, and could cost you your license if someone is hurt because of your actions.

If you don't have the training and equipment to make the scene relatively safe for you and your partner, you hold until it's done for you. No one benefits from freelancing on major incidents, and there are ample historical precedents for people losing everything.


So you'd watch someone strolling distance away from you just die?

Would you sleep soundly that night?
 
2013-11-15 08:00:43 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.


Shhhh... We're supposed to mindlessly despise them no matter what they do because... well, just because. I'm not exactly sure why.
 
2013-11-15 08:00:44 PM  

hardinparamedic: Whelp. I got filterpwned.


No shiat. I almost pissed my pants laughing when I saw that.
 
2013-11-15 08:01:27 PM  

dark brew: But in this instance it sounds like the delay wasn't a matter of securing the scene, it was that an officer believed the guy was dead thereby delaying care


True, after RTFA. We've had problems locally with certain jurisdictions trying to keep our responders from entering "crime scenes" because the person looks "obviously dead", despite the fact they're not supposed to unless the person is decomposing.

Wonder if that's what happened here?
 
2013-11-15 08:02:25 PM  

fluffy2097: So you'd watch someone strolling distance away from you just die?

Would you sleep soundly that night?


I wouldn't be in strolling distance. And I wouldn't be in line of sight, either.

Would you like to rephrase your question?
 
2013-11-15 08:02:33 PM  
berylman: I am imagining him on the floor bleeding with an outstrechted hand imploring a nearby officer "help meeeee you arsehole" and the cop is like "that is not my official duty"....not saying it happened that way but it would be a heinous situation.

>>This is what I imagine too. I wonder if he was yelling for help?
 
2013-11-15 08:04:30 PM  

fluffy2097: hardinparamedic: It's not a Paramedic's job to play Rescue Randy and rush in to save the day when someone is gunning down people. All he does is become another victim, and take away from the resources needed to care for people already hurt on scene. Disobeying a stage for PD announcement will cost you your job on a major incident, and could cost you your license if someone is hurt because of your actions.

If you don't have the training and equipment to make the scene relatively safe for you and your partner, you hold until it's done for you. No one benefits from freelancing on major incidents, and there are ample historical precedents for people losing everything.

So you'd watch someone strolling distance away from you just die?

Would you sleep soundly that night?


Yes, Fluffy, that happens.  Because one dead person would become two dead people. And no, it does not allow you to sleep well at night, not just that night.
 
2013-11-15 08:05:07 PM  
Anyone who's read the article would know that the whole thing about "securing the site before letting the medics in to treat the wounded" doesn't really apply in this case, since the shooter had already been apprehended and the site (in this case, the site around the wounded and bleeding victim) had already been secured. The paramedics were about 150 yards away and had to wait 20-30 minutes before the LAPD would allow them to do their jobs.

And if the medical examiner determines that the victim might have lived had treatment not been delayed, the cops who delayed the treatment will most likely be charged with murder be given a written reprimand and a one-week suspension with pay (while the coroner would be in absolutely no danger whatsoever of being suicided, and if you believe that then I've got a bridge for sale in Brooklyn)
 
2013-11-15 08:05:27 PM  
From the MSNBC article I read, they already had the gunman in custody. There really was no excuse for getting this guy help. LAPD must have a BUNCH of farking money or a REALLY forgiving insurance underwriter to be able to pay out all these settlements.
 
2013-11-15 08:07:06 PM  
live by the sword, die by the sword
 
2013-11-15 08:07:09 PM  

WTFDYW: From the MSNBC article I read, they already had the gunman in custody. There really was no excuse for

NOT getting this guy help. LAPD must have a BUNCH of farking money or a REALLY forgiving insurance underwriter to be able to pay out all these settlements.
 
2013-11-15 08:07:11 PM  

xtrc8u: And no, it does not allow you to sleep well at night, not just that night.


You're talking to someone who just won't "get it", no matter how much you explain to him that real life is not like what he sees on TV.

He doesn't realize that a common tactic of people is to shoot someone and leave them in plain sight to lure responders in to kill more, I'm also willing to bet, or that for the last 20 years, people who use IEDs to hurt people often plant secondary devices to kill and mame responders.
 
2013-11-15 08:08:12 PM  

doglover: change1211: Gig103: [img.fark.net image 604x358]

Yep, a father and husband is dead. This is a good thing because Fark doesn't like who he worked for.

To be fair, NOBODY likes the TSA and even The Iceman was married with kids.


It's still a crying shame the LAPD gets to continue existing as they do without major reform from an external source higher up the food chain. They are constantly farking up like this.


They were under federal oversight for years.
http://news.yahoo.com/federal-oversight-lapd-officially-ends-18554064 8 .html
 
2013-11-15 08:08:19 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: First of all, its not a policeman's job to administer first aid, its their job in a situation as this, to secure the area, and that takes time. They have guns, and are able to defend themselves. The paramedics do not. So, you don't let in the medical people until you have made sure it is safe. No point adding more victims to a already bad situation. It has been this way forever, and as a retired police officer, it makes sense to me. No point in letting others in, before you had taken control of the situation, and made sure it is safe. But i guess that doesn't matter to the trolltastic headline.
If we had let them in to help the guy, and the shooter (or shooters, they didn't know) shot the paramedics, the trolls would have been screaming "why didnt you make sure it was safe? Waaahhhhhhhh." Can't win, so you do what makes sense and hope for the best.


That's pretty much it. If you can hold a clean conscience in your mind about what you did, it doesn't matter at all what anyone says.
 
2013-11-15 08:08:29 PM  

hardinparamedic: Whelp. I got filterpwned.


But it was awesome.
 
2013-11-15 08:08:53 PM  

hardinparamedic: xtrc8u: And no, it does not allow you to sleep well at night, not just that night.

You're talking to someone who just won't "get it", no matter how much you explain to him that real life is not like what he sees on TV.

He doesn't realize that a common tactic of people is to shoot someone and leave them in plain sight to lure responders in to kill more, I'm also willing to bet, or that for the last 20 years, people who use IEDs to hurt people often plant secondary devices to kill and mame responders.


Atlanta? 9/11??
Just the first two that come to mind.
 
2013-11-15 08:11:11 PM  

hardinparamedic: iheartscotch: This wasn't a LAPD thing; this was probably a homeland security theater thing. The paramedics probably had to go through additional screening because they were "randomly selected".

Lol.

That said, in reality tactical doctrine is to bypass giving aid to wounded and go directly towards the active shooter to isolate and neutralize him. Until that's done, in the absence of a tactical paramedic team, the priority is stopping the shooting and THEN treating victims.


Indeed.

It's not uncommon in these situations for the paramedics to be delayed. You can't have some jihadi/crazy pop a cap in the ass of some poor paramedic. Then, you've got a parametric with a hole in his or her butt; ain't nobody got time for that.
 
2013-11-15 08:11:53 PM  

hardinparamedic: Pichu0102: It's not known when Hernandez died or if immediate medical attention could have saved his life, but McClain said unless a person is decapitated, a doctor must declare someone dead.

What.

The doctor has to sign the death certificate. A Paramedic or RN can declare someone dead when they meet criteria in their Guidelines/Standing Orders.

Don't expect the news media to get it right. They have to sensationalize.

PanicMan: Okay, this was a giant clusterf*ck, but really saying someone is "only" 150 yards away when it's unknown if there's other shooters, or bombs.  If you go out to help someone and you get shot too, now there's two victims and less people to respond or secure the area.

THIS.

Unless you have someone who is a Paramedic or EMT on a tactical team and is trained to operate under fire, or you have a spare Law Enforcement officer trained in LE Weeners Tactical Casuality Care,you're not going to care for them until the shooter is neutralized.

Remember that scene from ROTLD, where he says "Send more paramedics?" That's what active shooters want. Unarmed rescuers they can add to their body count. Kill the shooter, save lives.


Personally I think paramedics should be allowed to be armed and that any of them who don't do so once it is allowed is an idiot. But that is just my opinion and not that relevant to the core issues with your argument...

RTFA.... The shooter was neutralized 28 minutes before the guy was moved the 20 feet to the paramedics.

1.) At 150 yards range 20 feet is NOTHING. Moving the paramedics up 20 feet, from 157 yards away to 150 yards away was never going to make a difference to their safety. Conversely, if the location of the injured man was dangerous then the paramedics being only 20 feet away were already in danger. Either way you cut it letting them move up 20 feet would have no impact on their safety.

2.) The paramedics were never allowed in anyway... The police moved the man TO the paramedics. There is no reason they couldn't have done this 28 minutes earlier since this is all they ended up doing anyway.


You are totally right that bringing paramedics into a firefight in the civilian world is almost always a bad idea, but since that was entirely NOT the situation your point is moot.
 
2013-11-15 08:13:00 PM  
 
2013-11-15 08:14:10 PM  

hardinparamedic: snocone: What a bunch of farking jackwagons.

Of course it is a medic's job to make house calls.

It's not a Paramedic's job to play Rescue Randy and rush in to save the day when someone is gunning down people. All he does is become another victim, and take away from the resources needed to care for people already hurt on scene. Disobeying a stage for PD announcement will cost you your job on a major incident, and could cost you your license if someone is hurt because of your actions.

If you don't have the training and equipment to make the scene relatively safe for you and your partner, you hold until it's done for you. No one benefits from freelancing on major incidents, and there are ample historical precedents for people losing everything.


Well, gee, thanks for the advice.

I will consider it. Nope, just doesn't work for me, sorry. Every drop of my "special training" was OJT. And 70 pounds of "special equipment" is just, excuse me, dead weight.
True, stupid is as stupid does, but  at some point, the learning curve turns your way.
A gun is not a nuke. A shooter is not Piers Morgan's fantasy. There are rules and limits.
 
2013-11-15 08:15:38 PM  
The world needs more good men like christopher dorner!
 
2013-11-15 08:16:45 PM  

arentol: Personally I think paramedics should be allowed to be armed and that any of them who don't do so once it is allowed is an idiot. But that is just my opinion and not that relevant to the core issues with your argument...


Uh, most people who are on the job will disagree with you on that. A gun in the box of an ambulance is a BAD idea, and can easily get taken away from you. Many of the attacks using firearms on paramedics involve shooting at the ambulance, which means having a sidearm is not going to be protective anyway. In addition, the majority of paramedics are neither tactically or law enforcement trained, and existing concealed carry laws and training does NOT support, impart, or provide criminal or legal defense for shootings in the line of duty for Paramedics in a non-LEO capacity.

There's a reason that Tactical EMT training and programs like LEO-NARCMEDIC exist. And the reason many of the leading organizations recommend that if a Paramedic is going to carry a sidearm, the be employed as and certified as a law enforcement officer.

arentol: RTFA.... The shooter was neutralized 28 minutes before the guy was moved the 20 feet to the paramedics.

1.) At 150 yards range 20 feet is NOTHING. Moving the paramedics up 20 feet, from 157 yards away to 150 yards away was never going to make a difference to their safety. Conversely, if the location of the injured man was dangerous then the paramedics being only 20 feet away were already in danger. Either way you cut it letting them move up 20 feet would have no impact on their safety.

2.) The paramedics were never allowed in anyway... The police moved the man TO the paramedics. There is no reason they couldn't have done this 28 minutes earlier since this is all they ended up doing anyway.


Not disagreeing with you at all.
 
2013-11-15 08:17:57 PM  
Holy crap. From the comments, a total conspiracy nut job claiming that Sandy Hook was staged, and he's got proof:

TONY HAWK was pretending to be one of the dads.

(editor's trying to load this 1.1MB jpg, so copy and paste the link below)

http://wellaware1.com/artwork/large/shooting_hoax.jpg
 
2013-11-15 08:18:02 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: First of all, its not a policeman's job to administer first aid, its their job in a situation as this, to secure the area, and that takes time. They have guns, and are able to defend themselves. The paramedics do not. So, you don't let in the medical people until you have made sure it is safe. No point adding more victims to a already bad situation. It has been this way forever, and as a retired police officer, it makes sense to me. No point in letting others in, before you had taken control of the situation, and made sure it is safe. But i guess that doesn't matter to the trolltastic headline.
If we had let them in to help the guy, and the shooter (or shooters, they didn't know) shot the paramedics, the trolls would have been screaming "why didnt you make sure it was safe? Waaahhhhhhhh." Can't win, so you do what makes sense and hope for the best.


Remind me again what your opinion would be if you had found out that was your loved one that they let bleed out?
 
2013-11-15 08:18:32 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: First of all, its not a policeman's job to administer first aid, its their job in a situation as this, to secure the area, and that takes time. They have guns, and are able to defend themselves. The paramedics do not. So, you don't let in the medical people until you have made sure it is safe. No point adding more victims to a already bad situation. It has been this way forever, and as a retired police officer, it makes sense to me. No point in letting others in, before you had taken control of the situation, and made sure it is safe. But i guess that doesn't matter to the trolltastic headline.


The area was secure for 28 minutes before Hernandez received any assistance.

Also, if it was safe enough for the shooter to get medical treatment, why wasn't it safe enough for the victim?

But we all know that Heroic Officers like you can do no wrong, so why bother to read the article?
 
2013-11-15 08:19:48 PM  

hardinparamedic: xtrc8u: And no, it does not allow you to sleep well at night, not just that night.

You're talking to someone who just won't "get it", no matter how much you explain to him that real life is not like what he sees on TV.

He doesn't realize that a common tactic of people is to shoot someone and leave them in plain sight to lure responders in to kill more, I'm also willing to bet, or that for the last 20 years, people who use IEDs to hurt people often plant secondary devices to kill and mame responders.


Totally agree on securing the scene prior to entering, however based on the information in the article, LAPD was either far too cautious, or just flat out callous. I'm skeptical of any sensationalized account but if the article is accurate, the cops dropped the ball.
/10 year combat medic
//monday morning quarterbacking is always easier than dealing with the suck in real time
///slashies come in threes
 
2013-11-15 08:19:59 PM  

Princess Ryans Knickers: Bit'O'Gristle: First of all, its not a policeman's job to administer first aid, its their job in a situation as this, to secure the area, and that takes time. They have guns, and are able to defend themselves. The paramedics do not. So, you don't let in the medical people until you have made sure it is safe. No point adding more victims to a already bad situation. It has been this way forever, and as a retired police officer, it makes sense to me. No point in letting others in, before you had taken control of the situation, and made sure it is safe. But i guess that doesn't matter to the trolltastic headline.
If we had let them in to help the guy, and the shooter (or shooters, they didn't know) shot the paramedics, the trolls would have been screaming "why didnt you make sure it was safe? Waaahhhhhhhh." Can't win, so you do what makes sense and hope for the best.

Remind me again what your opinion would be if you had found out that was your loved one that they let bleed out?


Oh, was that a "real" person.

You mean with friends and rellys and stuff?

Practice dummies are so much simpler.
 
2013-11-15 08:20:03 PM  

hardinparamedic: That said, in reality tactical doctrine is to bypass giving aid to wounded and go directly towards the active shooter to isolate and neutralize him. Until that's done, in the absence of a tactical paramedic team, the priority is stopping the shooting and THEN treating victims.


Then explain the 28 minutes between when the shooter was neutralized, and provided with medical care himself, before y'all allowed the victim any treatment?
 
2013-11-15 08:20:53 PM  

fnordfocus: Then explain the 28 minutes between when the shooter was neutralized, and provided with medical care himself, before y'all allowed the victim any treatment?


I already did.

hardinparamedic: dark brew: But in this instance it sounds like the delay wasn't a matter of securing the scene, it was that an officer believed the guy was dead thereby delaying care

True, after RTFA. We've had problems locally with certain jurisdictions trying to keep our responders from entering "crime scenes" because the person looks "obviously dead", despite the fact they're not supposed to unless the person is decomposing.

Wonder if that's what happened here?

 
2013-11-15 08:21:24 PM  

Princess Ryans Knickers: Remind me again what your opinion would be if you had found out that was your loved one that they let bleed out?


That wouldn't happen.  If an Officer's loved one was shot, they would have received prompt treatment.
 
2013-11-15 08:21:33 PM  

Louisiana_Sitar_Club: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.

I understand that people don't like the TSA.  I don't get the part where folks think that a dead work-a-day shlub and his now fatherless children put the cosmos in balance or whatever.


Just like anywhere else, it's not bad if it happens to "them". You see it full tilt in motorcycle threads. People get downright murderous at the mere mention of loud pipes, those disrupt their phone conversations while their driving.
 
2013-11-15 08:22:20 PM  
Remember that ex-military homeowner that managed to get in position with an AR15 at the point of entry for some sort of no-knock drug warrant?  It took a long time for police to secure that scene.  Too bad the homeowner died before paramedics were allowed to get to him.

It isn't always about serving the pubic, it seems to be more about about protecting themselves.
 
2013-11-15 08:24:03 PM  

hardinparamedic: fnordfocus: Then explain the 28 minutes between when the shooter was neutralized, and provided with medical care himself, before y'all allowed the victim any treatment?

I already did.


You wrote:

That said, in reality tactical doctrine is to bypass giving aid to wounded and go directly towards the active shooter to isolate and neutralize him. Until that's done, in the absence of a tactical paramedic team, the priority is stopping the shooting and THEN treating victims.

How the fark does that explain this situation?  The Officers had already neutralized the shooter.  They thought it was safe enough to aid wounded shooter.  They didn't allow the victim to be treated.  How does that make any farking sense?
 
2013-11-15 08:24:45 PM  

Enemabag Jones: It isn't always about serving the pubic, it seems to be more about about protecting themselves.


Can you clarify something for me? Are you suggesting that the LAPD shot the guy and covered it up?

Luse: You see it full tilt in motorcycle threads. People get downright murderous at the mere mention of loud pipes, those disrupt their phone conversations while their driving.


i34.photobucket.com
 
2013-11-15 08:38:53 PM  
i.ytimg.com

"Lets say you're a contractor, and a juicy government contract comes your way..."
 
2013-11-15 08:39:41 PM  

strtsk8r7: They were under federal oversight for years.


Not oversight, but regulation. The whole apple barrel is ruined. You have to destroy the culture there entirely and replace it. Kind of like the Germans did for themselves post WW2. Now they're the nicest people in Europe.
 
2013-11-15 08:39:44 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.


lol, sheeple
 
2013-11-15 08:39:45 PM  
Firat thing cops are trained to do is protect themselves. Number 2 is civilians. Third is help wounded. Number one was not done. It sucks. We all hate including cops, but they followed protocols. Plain and simple, it sucks and was a shiatty situation.
 
2013-11-15 08:40:01 PM  
 
2013-11-15 09:05:38 PM  
hardinparamedic ,
Enemabag Jones: It isn't always about serving the pubic, it seems to be more about about protecting themselves.
Can you clarify something for me? Are you suggesting that the LAPD shot the guy and covered it up?


I don't know. Half the time I read something horrible like this the standard answer is "it is standard procedure." Some of the people that tend to support police in situations like this confuse what is moral and what is lawful or doctrine. Just because it is written down somewhere as procedure does not make it moral or right.

Possibly they want to make sure there isn't a second shooter, or something like that. Maybe it is comparable to procedures with bomb-sniffing dogs after a first bomb at some location. Maybe someone in black kevlar used an emergency response document and forgot about their primary mission.

My question is, when did police become so much about procedure and forget that protecting the public part. How long does it take to secure the a location of a shooting in Iraq before soldiers are provided care?

I think the first scene I talked about with the no-knock drug raid vs ex-soldier with ar-15. I don't know if that was ass-covering or procedure. And I don't claim the delay in the airport was a cover-up. I do think they need to stop thinking in terms of how do they protect themselves and how do they serve the public better. Maybe justify the hero-worship I see on the local news.

As a final example, I could quote you the khmer rouge procedure on how to treat Cambodian with a college education and no one would buy that. Just because you can quote standard procedure on US police emergency response does not make it make it morally right.

Assuming the police version is the real version not intended to save face.
 
2013-11-15 09:08:32 PM  
The Obamacare trickle down effect.
 
2013-11-15 09:14:00 PM  
What's wrong with having someone drag the wounded guy out to the paramedics while someone covers him? Is that not allowed?
 
2013-11-15 09:14:16 PM  

Enemabag Jones: Half the time I read something horrible like this the standard answer is "it is standard procedure." Some of the people that tend to support police in situations like this confuse what is moral and what is lawful or doctrine. Just because it is written down somewhere as procedure does not make it moral or right.

Just because it is written down somewhere as procedure does not make it moral or right.

Just because it is written down somewhere as procedure does not make it moral or right.

Just because it is written down somewhere as procedure does not make it moral or right.

Just because it is written down somewhere as procedure does not make it moral or right.

 
2013-11-15 09:15:27 PM  

Enemabag Jones: How long does it take to secure the a location of a shooting in Iraq before soldiers are provided care?


What the military does would seem pretty damn heartless, then. The best battlefield medicine is a magazine into the asshole who just shot your buddy.

Other than directed care to keep a wounded soldier in the fight and rapid application of tourniquet, they won't do anything until the shooting stops.
 
2013-11-15 09:19:04 PM  

hardinparamedic: Enemabag Jones: How long does it take to secure the a location of a shooting in Iraq before soldiers are provided care?

What the military does would seem pretty damn heartless, then. The best battlefield medicine is a magazine into the asshole who just shot your buddy.

Other than directed care to keep a wounded soldier in the fight and rapid application of tourniquet, they won't do anything until the shooting stops.


You blog sucks was actually informative. thanks.
 
2013-11-15 09:20:08 PM  

Pichu0102: It's not known when Hernandez died or if immediate medical attention could have saved his life, but McClain said unless a person is decapitated, a doctor must declare someone dead.

What.


I did a first aid course and that was one of the key things we were taught. We were not allowed to decide the victim was dead. We must administer CPR or whatever until an ambulance arrives and the pro's take over, no matter how dead the victim might appear. Only if the victim was in one place and their head was somewhere else could we safely decide not to bother.

/TV is partly to blame. CPR is a miracle cure where after ten seconds the victim takes a huge breath and springs back to life. People see that so often on TV and in movies that if someone does have a heart attack they give up after twenty seconds because "it hasn't worked". People have made full recoveries after being given CPR, and remained non responsive, for half an hour and more.
//You do not make that call. You administer first aid until medics arrive and take over or decomposition starts.
 
2013-11-15 09:25:29 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Only if the victim was in one place and their head was somewhere else could we safely decide not to bother.


That was one of the funny things about Mr. Teatime's assassins' exam. He was fastidious enough to check for breath with a mirror, even though the head was several feat away away from the body.
 
2013-11-15 09:26:20 PM  
Bit'O'Gristle: First of all, its not a policeman's job to administer first aid, its their job in a situation as this, to secure the area, and that takes time.

This part has been addressed. 33 minutes, with the suspect neutralized?? Right.

They have guns, and are able to defend themselves. The paramedics do not. So, you don't let in the medical people until you have made sure it is safe.

Glad those Navy Corpsmen didn't take that attitude when I was in the Marines...... It would be kind of awkward, you know:
"CORPSMAN UP!!! We have a man hit!"

"Umm, yeah... is it safe? Make sure you guys secure the area and make sure there is no danger before  I come over there. Please be a dear and make sure it's safe... mmkay?"


No point adding more victims to a already bad situation.

Shooter was neutralized.

 It has been this way forever, and as a retired police officer, it makes sense to me.

Of course it would. Gotta protect the brothers behind the blue line.

 No point in letting others in, before you had taken control of the situation, and made sure it is safe. But i guess that doesn't matter to the trolltastic headline.

Ya, shooter was neutralized, scene had been secure for  33 MINUTES and another policeman had declared the TSA agent dead. Can't let someone see a cop is wrong.


/Dog bless the Corpsmen
//and fark the police
 
2013-11-15 09:30:50 PM  
We need a dedicated TSA law enforcement unit tasked with protecting transportation security officers

And then a dedicated unit tasked with protecting the TSA protection unit, and then a unit tasked with protecting the TSA protection protection unit, and then a unit tasked with protecting the TSA protection protection protection unit, and then we'll all be safe because there physically won't be any more room for a flying civilian to even step foot inside the airport.
 
2013-11-15 09:32:18 PM  
FTFA - "We need a serious re-examination of TSA's screening area security policies to stop the next tragedy before it happens. The inconsistent patchwork of local law enforcement and security protocols simply won't get the job done. We need a dedicated TSA law enforcement unit tasked with protecting transportation security officers and the flying public around our vulnerable screening areas. An immediate threat requires an immediate response, and we can't afford to be taken off-guard again."

Absolutely. Set up a pre-security screening security screening, to keep the screeners safe. Also all those people in close proximity. But then who will protect the pre-screening screeners that are protecting the screeners? Surely there is some way we can guarantee the safety of everybody everywhere at every time.

/The TSA needs its own tactical units and broadly defined powers too!
//If the TSA doesn't get its own para-military force then the terrorists win
 
2013-11-15 09:32:44 PM  
Bit'O'Gristle:

Please click the link and read the original article from CBS. According to it, the police had secured the area and the wounded had been being tended to for over 20 minutes. The TSA officer wasn't being treated, owing to an LAPD officer's erroneous statement that he was already dead. You are right, however, that the Fark headline is trolling. Poke around the site for a while, it's what Fark does. Some of us find that entertaining. In this case I do find it to be in bad taste, as a guy died. LIke it or lump it, it's what Fark does.
 
2013-11-15 09:33:44 PM  

fusillade762: McClain

Yippee-ki-yay, motherfarker.


Hah, just imagine another sequel, this time with a madman who takes over an airport where a bunch of people get shot.
 
2013-11-15 09:34:40 PM  
hardinparamedic:...if a Paramedic is going to carry a sidearm, the be employed as and certified as a law enforcement officer.

Yeah, if you simply must arm EMTs, they should be sworn law enforcement officers. I think it's a really bad idea all around, though. I wouldn't want to carry at work, and I work in a relatively high-crime urban environment. Plus, even when assigned to the ambulance, I have fire supression responsibilities and question the wisdom of carrying in a fire, or the reality of removing the sidearm and securing it in the bus. Then there's the political risk of once again reviving the public safety department concept. So all around, bad idea.
 
2013-11-15 09:35:04 PM  

StrangeQ: We need a dedicated desiccated TSA law enforcement unit tasked with protecting transportation security officers



FTFM
 
2013-11-15 09:38:20 PM  
The article quotes an officer named McClain. Where are the Die Hard references?
 
2013-11-15 09:38:20 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.

I don't remember anyone at the airport fondling my nutsack pre-9/11 or using advanced technology to see me naked.



Giving your life in the name of the State doesn't equate to heroism
Joseph Goebbles was a loving family-man and a dedicated civil servant.
 
2013-11-15 09:53:48 PM  
Exactly what do people think the TSA is looking for? I'll tell you - crazy people with weapons. What do they do when they actually find one? Scatter like they never knew it would happen. Idiots.
 
2013-11-15 09:58:57 PM  
The inconsistent patchwork of local law enforcement and security protocols simply won't get the job done. We need a dedicated TSA law enforcement unit tasked with protecting transportation security officers and the flying public around our vulnerable screening areas.

Sigh.

That stretching sound you hear is the ever expanding government. budget and all.
 
2013-11-15 09:59:05 PM  
Way to f*ck up a slam dunk arrest and conviction LAPD. You can't get the shooter on anything related to that agent's death now.
 
2013-11-15 10:15:24 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: I don't remember anyone at the airport fondling my nutsack pre-9/11 or using advanced technology to see me naked.


Pre-911 I had a friend get on the luggage belt at the San Jose Air Port and ride it into the handling area and back out.
 
2013-11-15 10:18:39 PM  

Surool: Way to f*ck up a slam dunk arrest and conviction LAPD. You can't get the shooter on anything related to that agent's death now.


Curious about your logic on that? The fact is he died as a direct result of the injuries inflicted by the gunshot, regardless of the interventions of others or lack thereof.

itsaidwhat: What do they do when they actually find one? Scatter like they never knew it would happen. Idiots.


The majority of the TSA are unarmed security screeners. They are not law enforcement. The average TSA screener has less training than the rent a cop that guards your local bank.
 
2013-11-15 10:28:03 PM  
Surcool

Way to f*ck up a slam dunk arrest and conviction LAPD. You can't get the shooter on anything related to that agent's death now.

Did you have to say that on the Internet?
 
2013-11-15 10:28:04 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.


So long as you do nothing to draw scrutiny it's about the same.

When my wife drew a patdown that edged into sexual assault territory because the x-ray couldn't resolve an object in her carryon there's a problem.

My wife is from China and we visit on occasion so I get to see how their security works also--and it's a big difference!

1)  You say they're polite--I've seen a *LOT* more politeness from the Chinese agents.  They approach anomalies from a standpoint of attempting to confirm they're harmless rather than thinking they caught something.

2)  The only going-through-the-motions security I have seen over there has been imposed by the TSA, not the Chinese authorities.  Here I often have the feeling they're obsessed with rules rather than results.

3)  The Chinese are much better at reacting to reality than the US.  After the underwear bomber they quickly had a procedure in effect where they grouped half a dozen people and rubbed one swab on everyone (clothes, bags, not skin--no hazard) and then put it in the ETD.  Simple, effective, quick to implement but no big bucks for a supplier.

4)  My wife set off two nuke alarms over there.  At 4x and 8x the radioactivity she didn't set off any in the US portion of the flight.  (Although I did find their followup inadequate.  The card from the lab sat in the pocket of the jacket she didn't wear for the flight but even then they simply took her word on the situation and made no attempt to determine if it was her or her possessions that were hot.)

5)  They *NEVER* mess with your luggage--no sticky-fingered TSA agents or bags not properly repacked.  If there's an issue on the x-ray they ask you about what it might be and confirm that really is what you claim.  The x-ray tech is shown the item(s) in question, if they're not sure that that's what they saw the bag is run through again without them, but the only stuff they actually handle is the offending item(s).  The US--an agent helped themselves to a bag of nuts in our checked bags.

6)  They pay more attention to the scanner.  I had an opaque item in my carryon, they pointed to the shadow on the screen and asked me about it, I pulled it out for examination.  The same item 12 hours later went unnoticed.  Likewise, the metal chopsticks were noticed over there, missed here.

7)  Here the layout is such that you can't keep an eye on your belongings once you send them through the x-ray.  (Although at least the TSA guys understand when I explain I'm waiting for my wife to be in a position to watch before I send our stuff through.)  Over there it's a non-issue, I would be able to see someone making off with something of mine and I'm sure that "Stop that thief!!" would get my bag back.

arentol: Personally I think paramedics should be allowed to be armed and that any of them who don't do so once it is allowed is an idiot. But that is just my opinion and not that relevant to the core issues with your argument...


Armed paramedics strike me as a *VERY* bad idea.  You want to bring weapons around someone who might be acting irrationally?  Ensuring a patient doesn't grab that gun is going to interfere with them doing their job in an emergency.
 
2013-11-15 10:38:11 PM  

Loren: My wife is from China and we visit on occasion so I get to see how their security works also--and it's a big difference!


I haven't been to China, but I did go to Singapore. They were more as you described, aka effective. It felt ironic to me that the "Police State" of Singapore was less intrusive than LAX.
 
2013-11-15 11:04:39 PM  
I assume the dumbass tag is for subby and his headline.
 
2013-11-15 11:07:05 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: First of all, its not a policeman's job to administer first aid, its their job in a situation as this, to secure the area, and that takes time. They have guns, and are able to defend themselves. The paramedics do not. So, you don't let in the medical people until you have made sure it is safe. No point adding more victims to a already bad situation. It has been this way forever, and as a retired police officer, it makes sense to me. No point in letting others in, before you had taken control of the situation, and made sure it is safe. But i guess that doesn't matter to the trolltastic headline.
If we had let them in to help the guy, and the shooter (or shooters, they didn't know) shot the paramedics, the trolls would have been screaming "why didnt you make sure it was safe? Waaahhhhhhhh." Can't win, so you do what makes sense and hope for the best.


So, with all the police and other TSA officers all in there - not ONE of them could take that guy out to where it was safe?

Police officers in my family say it was not always like this.  But they are pretty old by now.
 
2013-11-15 11:08:23 PM  

epyonyx: Firat thing cops are trained to do is protect themselves. Number 2 is civilians. Third is help wounded. Number one was not done. It sucks. We all hate including cops, but they followed protocols. Plain and simple, it sucks and was a shiatty situation.


Isn't there some rule where they don't pronounce people dead when they're not?  Is making medical pronouncements part of protecting themselves?
 
2013-11-15 11:09:13 PM  

fnordfocus: Princess Ryans Knickers: Remind me again what your opinion would be if you had found out that was your loved one that they let bleed out?

That wouldn't happen.  If an Officer's loved one was shot, they would have received prompt treatment.


Yep, yep.
 
2013-11-15 11:14:47 PM  
We discussed this incident during a training class I had today. The LAPD had secured the scene and neutralized the shooter, then asked the LAFD to enter the scene to treat the injured agent. They refused, even after being told the shooter was neutralized. The LAPD treated the guy for almost 30 minutes but were afraid to move him for fear of aggravating his injuries. The cops had no equipment to stabilize the guy. The cops finally got frustrated and wheeled the guy out in a wheelchair to the ambulance. He was never treated by LAFD who were only 150 yards away the entire time.

This was very similar to the occurrence at the Aurora theater shooting. The cops were practically begging the fire department to come into the scene, but they refused unless they were assured it was safe. Obviously the cops couldn't give that assurance. The cops finally started transporting people themselves out of frustration.

Fire departments have set protocols for each situation, and it takes them way too long to set up a rescue plan in active shooter type scenarios. The entire point of the class was to train the cops in working with the fire department to remove victims in active shooter cases.
 
2013-11-15 11:26:58 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Pichu0102: It's not known when Hernandez died or if immediate medical attention could have saved his life, but McClain said unless a person is decapitated, a doctor must declare someone dead.

What.

I did a first aid course and that was one of the key things we were taught. We were not allowed to decide the victim was dead. We must administer CPR or whatever until an ambulance arrives and the pro's take over, no matter how dead the victim might appear. Only if the victim was in one place and their head was somewhere else could we safely decide not to bother.

/TV is partly to blame. CPR is a miracle cure where after ten seconds the victim takes a huge breath and springs back to life. People see that so often on TV and in movies that if someone does have a heart attack they give up after twenty seconds because "it hasn't worked". People have made full recoveries after being given CPR, and remained non responsive, for half an hour and more.
//You do not make that call. You administer first aid until medics arrive and take over or decomposition starts.


Oh, okay, I was thinking it worded like saying if you're not decapitated, a doctor must say you are dead. I was a little confused there for a moment.
 
2013-11-15 11:38:10 PM  
I smell a lawsuit....better call Saul!
 
2013-11-15 11:45:10 PM  

N4LG4s: I smell a lawsuit....better call Saul!


You'll need to use this.
 
2013-11-15 11:49:40 PM  
I just came here for the law enforcement weeners tactical casualty care.
 
2013-11-15 11:52:59 PM  

doglover: change1211: Gig103: [img.fark.net image 604x358]

Yep, a father and husband is dead. This is a good thing because Fark doesn't like who he worked for.

To be fair, NOBODY likes the TSA and even The Iceman was married with kids.

[southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com image 480x350]
It's still a crying shame the LAPD gets to continue existing as they do without major reform from an external source higher up the food chain. They are constantly farking up like this.


Somehow, in a contest of "who I'd fear least in a locked room" I'd have to go with the TSA on this one. Since they aren't allowed sidearms, and LAPD would leave you full of lead and claim you fell down the (nonexistent) stairs during an otherwise lawful arrest.
 
2013-11-16 12:03:18 AM  

CruiserTwelve: We discussed this incident during a training class I had today. The LAPD had secured the scene and neutralized the shooter, then asked the LAFD to enter the scene to treat the injured agent. They refused, even after being told the shooter was neutralized. The LAPD treated the guy for almost 30 minutes but were afraid to move him for fear of aggravating his injuries. The cops had no equipment to stabilize the guy. The cops finally got frustrated and wheeled the guy out in a wheelchair to the ambulance. He was never treated by LAFD who were only 150 yards away the entire time.


Nice story, but it isn't consistent with the article or with the fact that LAFD was able to treat the shooter.

This is all about a Heroic LAPD Officer exceeding his authority to declare someone dead who wasn't yet.

Unless you're able to provide some source, this sounds like random CYA LEO story-telling.
 
2013-11-16 12:05:21 AM  
corq:Somehow, in a contest of "who I'd fear least in a locked room" I'd have to go with the TSA on this one. Since they aren't allowed sidearms

Are you sure?

Probably not guns, but I'm convinced I've seen TSOs with batons or OC.
 
2013-11-16 12:13:32 AM  

fnordfocus: hardinparamedic: fnordfocus: Then explain the 28 minutes between when the shooter was neutralized, and provided with medical care himself, before y'all allowed the victim any treatment?

I already did.

You wrote:

That said, in reality tactical doctrine is to bypass giving aid to wounded and go directly towards the active shooter to isolate and neutralize him. Until that's done, in the absence of a tactical paramedic team, the priority is stopping the shooting and THEN treating victims.

How the fark does that explain this situation?  The Officers had already neutralized the shooter.  They thought it was safe enough to aid wounded shooter.  They didn't allow the victim to be treated.  How does that make any farking sense?


Apparently when an airport security checkpoint is breached, we assume the airport has been taken over by a large group of terrorists who staged the checkpoint incident merely as a distraction to cover their bigger plan. Until the entire area is searched and locked down, the terminal is assumed to be crawling with armed terrorists.
 
2013-11-16 12:16:08 AM  

arentol: hardinparamedic: Pichu0102: It's not known when Hernandez died or if immediate medical attention could have saved his life, but McClain said unless a person is decapitated, a doctor must declare someone dead.

What.

The doctor has to sign the death certificate. A Paramedic or RN can declare someone dead when they meet criteria in their Guidelines/Standing Orders.

Don't expect the news media to get it right. They have to sensationalize.

PanicMan: Okay, this was a giant clusterf*ck, but really saying someone is "only" 150 yards away when it's unknown if there's other shooters, or bombs.  If you go out to help someone and you get shot too, now there's two victims and less people to respond or secure the area.

THIS.

Unless you have someone who is a Paramedic or EMT on a tactical team and is trained to operate under fire, or you have a spare Law Enforcement officer trained in LE Weeners Tactical Casuality Care,you're not going to care for them until the shooter is neutralized.

Remember that scene from ROTLD, where he says "Send more paramedics?" That's what active shooters want. Unarmed rescuers they can add to their body count. Kill the shooter, save lives.

Personally I think paramedics should be allowed to be armed and that any of them who don't do so once it is allowed is an idiot. But that is just my opinion and not that relevant to the core issues with your argument...

RTFA.... The shooter was neutralized 28 minutes before the guy was moved the 20 feet to the paramedics.

1.) At 150 yards range 20 feet is NOTHING. Moving the paramedics up 20 feet, from 157 yards away to 150 yards away was never going to make a difference to their safety. Conversely, if the location of the injured man was dangerous then the paramedics being only 20 feet away were already in danger. Either way you cut it letting them move up 20 feet would have no impact on their safety.

2.) The paramedics were never allowed in anyway... The police moved the man TO the paramedics. There is no ...


It makes a HUGE difference if their last point of cover was 150 yards away, and moving 20 feet closer would have exposed them to a scene that was not yet completely secured.
 
2013-11-16 12:33:50 AM  
Bit'O'Gristle:
You know that LA SWAT has officers cross-trained as Paramedics, right? Or that they could drag the downed man to a safe area and evacuate him?
 
2013-11-16 12:51:50 AM  

fnordfocus: Nice story, but it isn't consistent with the article or with the fact that LAFD was able to treat the shooter.

This is all about a Heroic LAPD Officer exceeding his authority to declare someone dead who wasn't yet.

Unless you're able to provide some source, this sounds like random CYA LEO story-telling.


You're correct in saying that the article differs significantly from what I heard in class. However, it doesn't explain why LAFD didn't enter the scene to treat the victim. I'm sure paramedics aren't going to take the word of a cop that their patient is dead. What we were told is that LAFD would not enter the scene, even after being told the shooter was neutralized. Maybe the instructors were just trying to emphasize the importance of working WITH the fire department to get people treated because that was the entire point of the class. Or maybe they were full of shiat.

Yeah, from the article it looks like the cops should have moved the guy outdoors much sooner, and maybe the dumbass cop that kept saying he was dead delayed that. I've never heard of a fire department accepting the word of a cop that a patient was dead, but I have personal experience with fire/rescue personnel refusing to enter a scene. In fact on several occasions that come to mind.
 
2013-11-16 01:25:18 AM  
It's a dirty lie. There's no such thing as a TSA agent with a pulse.
 
2013-11-16 02:22:20 AM  

mllawso: You know that LA SWAT has officers cross-trained as Paramedics, right? Or that they could drag the downed man to a safe area and evacuate him


Do you have a source stating that there was a tactical paramedic on scene or in the terminal at the time that occured? Because that would be an even bigger foul-up than this already is.
 
2013-11-16 02:38:14 AM  
It's the police state.  Common sense is trumped by AUTHORATAY! Like when that firefighter was arrested by the cop because the firefighter was more concerned with safety than the cops AUTHORATAY!

WHO'S IN CHARGE HERE?!!

Is Fark.com authorized to post this article?
 
2013-11-16 03:00:48 AM  

regindyn: Hernandez? No wonder they let him die.


I know, right?  If there's one thing you'll never see in the LAPD, it's a Hispanic police officer...
 
2013-11-16 03:24:30 AM  

hardinparamedic: The average TSA screener has less training than the rent a cop that guards your local bank.


Well yeah, a bank guards pay and hours are far better than nut fondling and porno scanning. In house corporate security is way way better than working the TSA.
 
2013-11-16 03:38:15 AM  

proteus_b: It's a dirty lie. There's no such thing as a TSA agent with a pulse.


That's a heart. They all have pulses. How else could they get excited to poke around in your luggage.
 
2013-11-16 03:40:51 AM  

CruiserTwelve: but I have personal experience with fire/rescue personnel refusing to enter a scene. In fact on several occasions that come to mind.


So do I.  There is nothing worse than screaming to your dispatcher that the EMTs and Fire are clear in, but they just won't come.  But it happens. A lot.
 
2013-11-16 06:02:12 AM  

hardinparamedic: Surool: Way to f*ck up a slam dunk arrest and conviction LAPD. You can't get the shooter on anything related to that agent's death now.

Curious about your logic on that? The fact is he died as a direct result of the injuries inflicted by the gunshot, regardless of the interventions of others or lack thereof.

itsaidwhat: What do they do when they actually find one? Scatter like they never knew it would happen. Idiots.

The majority of the TSA are unarmed security screeners. They are not law enforcement. The average TSA screener has less training than the rent a cop that guards your local bank.


Because you simply argue in court that the injuries would have been non fatal if the cops hadn't let him die. Doctors would have had 30 minutes to save the agent... that is a long time to bleed out. The victim died as much as a result of police action as he did from being shot. Seat the right jury. Bam.
 
2013-11-16 07:12:00 AM  
EFF that!

I'm no doc. If he's still warm and I can drag 'em out, pulse or no, I'm damn well going to.
 
2013-11-16 07:19:32 AM  

Alocksly: EFF that!

I'm no doc. If he's still warm and I can drag 'em out, pulse or no, I'm damn well going to.


You are currently working as a first responder, right?
 
2013-11-16 09:02:15 AM  

Surool: Because you simply argue in court that the injuries would have been non fatal if the cops hadn't let him die. Doctors would have had 30 minutes to save the agent... that is a long time to bleed out. The victim died as much as a result of police action as he did from being shot. Seat the right jury. Bam.


Uh, I don't think you thought your cunning defense all the way through there, Atticus Finch.
The shooter was the proximal initiator and cause of the entire situation. Had he not shot the guard in the first place, he wouldn't have died as a result of his injuries, because they would have never happened. This is the same principal why someone can be convicted of attempted murder, and then be tried for murder down the road if the victim dies in hospital within the next year.
 
2013-11-16 09:14:33 AM  
OUTRAGED:

audreys-efanfic.freeservers.com
 
2013-11-16 09:38:12 AM  

Alocksly: If he's still warm and I can drag 'em out, pulse or no, I'm damn well going to.


So if someone has a mid-line gunshot wound to the cranium with no exit, no pulse, and fixed and dilated pupils, you're going to drag them out and start CPR?

Survivors of traumatic cardiac arrest are not the norm, they're the rare exception. Neurologically intact survivors that walk out of the hospital are rarer than that. People just don't survive traumatic cardiac arrest as a rule, in the absence of rapidly correctable causes such as pneumothorax. Especially ones caused by multiple GSWs and exsanguination.
 
2013-11-16 09:57:03 AM  

doyner: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I don't get the hate for the TSA. In my experience the vast majority of the agents are polite and respectful and the entire proces isn't much worse than it was pre-9/11.

I get the hatred for the TSA, but it doesn't hold a candle to the malfeasance of the LAPD.


I get the malfeasance of the LAPD, but the impropriety of the shooter really blows it away.
 
2013-11-16 10:07:02 AM  

Maybe you should drive: CruiserTwelve: but I have personal experience with fire/rescue personnel refusing to enter a scene. In fact on several occasions that come to mind.

So do I.  There is nothing worse than screaming to your dispatcher that the EMTs and Fire are clear in, but they just won't come.  But it happens. A lot.


Yeah, and several occasions come to mind where the cops have told me everything's cool. Only to, say, ask a psych if he has any weapons and he pulls a razor knife out of his pocket. Or to have the dispatcher tell us the "scene is secure" on the word of the caller because it's shift change and heaven forbid the cops take any calls during sacred roll call. Also, if you're "screaming" to your dispatcher you're doing it wrong.

All in all, my department and the police have a pretty good working relationship and we enter unsecure scenes fairly regularly.

In this particular case, it looks like EMS was not brought to the patient. EMS certainly may have chosen to take a small risk had they been told by the police "We have the gunman in custody and a victim RIGHT HERE, but we can't 100% guarantee the scene is secure." EMS isn't going to enter that scene searching for patients, they're going to rely on the police to locate patients. Instead, Officer Kevorkian was busy telling everyone within earshot that the TSA guy was dead and that determination stuck until an airport cop called him out on the fact that he couldn't make that decision.
 
2013-11-16 10:09:46 AM  

Maybe you should drive: CruiserTwelve: but I have personal experience with fire/rescue personnel refusing to enter a scene. In fact on several occasions that come to mind.

So do I.  There is nothing worse than screaming to your dispatcher that the EMTs and Fire are clear in, but they just won't come.  But it happens. A lot.


On the other hand, I've walked into "secure" scenes and come face to face with the business end of a double barrel shotgun.

lizyrd: Instead, Officer Kevorkian was busy telling everyone within earshot that the TSA guy was dead and that determination stuck until an airport cop called him out on the fact that he couldn't make that decision.


This looks like exactly what happened here.
 
2013-11-16 10:42:24 AM  

HideAndGoFarkYourself: arentol: hardinparamedic: Pichu0102: It's not known when Hernandez died or if immediate medical attention could have saved his life, but McClain said unless a person is decapitated, a doctor must declare someone dead.

What.

The doctor has to sign the death certificate. A Paramedic or RN can declare someone dead when they meet criteria in their Guidelines/Standing Orders.

Don't expect the news media to get it right. They have to sensationalize.

PanicMan: Okay, this was a giant clusterf*ck, but really saying someone is "only" 150 yards away when it's unknown if there's other shooters, or bombs.  If you go out to help someone and you get shot too, now there's two victims and less people to respond or secure the area.

THIS.

Unless you have someone who is a Paramedic or EMT on a tactical team and is trained to operate under fire, or you have a spare Law Enforcement officer trained in LE Weeners Tactical Casuality Care,you're not going to care for them until the shooter is neutralized.

Remember that scene from ROTLD, where he says "Send more paramedics?" That's what active shooters want. Unarmed rescuers they can add to their body count. Kill the shooter, save lives.

Personally I think paramedics should be allowed to be armed and that any of them who don't do so once it is allowed is an idiot. But that is just my opinion and not that relevant to the core issues with your argument...

RTFA.... The shooter was neutralized 28 minutes before the guy was moved the 20 feet to the paramedics.

1.) At 150 yards range 20 feet is NOTHING. Moving the paramedics up 20 feet, from 157 yards away to 150 yards away was never going to make a difference to their safety. Conversely, if the location of the injured man was dangerous then the paramedics being only 20 feet away were already in danger. Either way you cut it letting them move up 20 feet would have no impact on their safety.

2.) The paramedics were never allowed in anyway... The police moved the man TO the paramedics. The ...


Listen Dude, 150 yards is a whole lot of cover all by itself. Damn few amateurs could get lucky at that range.

This was chickenchit failure to function. That is all.
 
2013-11-16 11:31:21 AM  
Joseph Wambaugh wrote a good cop tail about how a racist officer found a known black criminal with several bullet holes in him, still alive.  So he dutifully used CPR on him, pumping him dry.
 
2013-11-16 12:16:12 PM  

gibbon1: hardinparamedic: The average TSA screener has less training than the rent a cop that guards your local bank.

Well yeah, a bank guards pay and hours are far better than nut fondling and porno scanning. In house corporate security is way way better than working the TSA.


Yeah but private security firms screen their employees. I am not sure that all of the TSA agents in have encountered can even read. The few that can get put on ID checks.
 
2013-11-16 01:07:08 PM  

hardinparamedic: Do you have a source stating that there was a tactical paramedic on scene or in the terminal at the time that occured?


Ah, I may be mistaken. Apparently SRT "medics" just have to be EMT-Bs, although some do go the extra mile for the -P. Still, tactical medic's aren't rare anymore, and I know that LA has them, I just can't say whether they were on scene or not. Still, I was under the impression that police existed to "Protect and Serve", and not (at the very least) dragging a critically injured man to a safe evacuation site doesn't really mesh with that. Maybe it was a triage foul-up.

Here's an article on it, although it's 3 years old:
http://www.policemag.com/channel/careers-training/articles/2013/08/a tf -s-tactical-medic-program.aspx
 
2013-11-16 01:11:37 PM  

mllawso: Ah, I may be mistaken. Apparently SRT "medics" just have to be EMT-Bs, although some do go the extra mile for the -P. Still, tactical medic's aren't rare anymore, and I know that LA has them, I just can't say whether they were on scene or not. Still, I was under the impression that police existed to "Protect and Serve", and not (at the very least) dragging a critically injured man to a safe evacuation site doesn't really mesh with that. Maybe it was a triage foul-up.


Based on some other sources I've read since they posted TFA, the officer in charge in the Terminal for LAPD was refusing to let anyone touch the guy because in his mind he was dead, and it was his crime scene. It was only after an Airport Police officer told him that he didn't have the authority to do that the EMS team was allowed inside.

Tactical EMTs are still relatively uncommon, at least in my area. A few of our tac guys went and got their EMT-Bs, but they're actual LE Officers.
 
2013-11-16 01:28:26 PM  
i.imgur.com

Something happened?
 
2013-11-16 01:55:56 PM  

change1211: Gig103: [img.fark.net image 604x358]

Yep, a father and husband is dead. This is a good thing because Fark doesn't like who he worked for.


Family got some great death benefits.  Dude should have thought of the risks before he took a job as professional scumbag.
 
2013-11-16 03:15:48 PM  

Maybe you should drive: CruiserTwelve: but I have personal experience with fire/rescue personnel refusing to enter a scene. In fact on several occasions that come to mind.

So do I.  There is nothing worse than screaming to your dispatcher that the EMTs and Fire are clear in, but they just won't come.  But it happens. A lot.


You've got a Tazer. Treat the EMT like a non compliant suspect. You do it often enough to civilians.

/The threat of 60,000 volts to the chest makes EMT's move like nothing else, because they are terrified of what defibrillators can do.
 
2013-11-16 03:20:21 PM  
These threads almost always turn in to a circle jerk brag off between HP and CT. Gets boring after reading a few of their "educational" posts. Have an ex- sister in law who is an EMT and her husband is a cop. That is some boring shiat. Problem is, they name names when they talk (brag) about calls that they have been on.

They should both be fired for privacy violations. Not HP or CT. I'm talking about the "outlaws".
 
2013-11-16 03:35:14 PM  

Gig103: [img.fark.net image 604x358]


Thanks for outing yourself as an asshole.

/No, TSA officers do not actually deserve death.
 
2013-11-16 03:48:31 PM  

hardinparamedic: ctical EMTs are still relatively uncommon, at least in my area. A few of our tac guys went and got their EMT-Bs, but they're actual LE Officers.


Huh. It seems the bigger cities have them hit-or-miss -- I think we'll start seeing more of it. One of the near-by college towns actually has several officers trained as paramedics, and stocked med-bags in all the buildings.
 
2013-11-16 04:31:18 PM  

PsiChick: Gig103: [img.fark.net image 604x358]

Thanks for outing yourself as an asshole.

/No, TSA officers do not actually deserve death.


THIS
 
2013-11-16 06:39:52 PM  

WTFDYW: Problem is,.

they name names when they talk (brag) about calls that they have been on

They should both be fired for privacy violations. Not HP or CT. I'm talking about the "outlaws".

img.myconfinedspace.com

I hope they have large sums of cash on hand. Let the feds find out about that.
 
2013-11-17 01:38:40 AM  

hardinparamedic: Surool: Because you simply argue in court that the injuries would have been non fatal if the cops hadn't let him die. Doctors would have had 30 minutes to save the agent... that is a long time to bleed out. The victim died as much as a result of police action as he did from being shot. Seat the right jury. Bam.

Uh, I don't think you thought your cunning defense all the way through there, Atticus Finch.
The shooter was the proximal initiator and cause of the entire situation. Had he not shot the guard in the first place, he wouldn't have died as a result of his injuries, because they would have never happened. This is the same principal why someone can be convicted of attempted murder, and then be tried for murder down the road if the victim dies in hospital within the next year.


I said it was arguable, and depending on the jury, it could work to derail simple murder one charges no matter what you say. I made no claim about being a legal expert, but as the O.J. case proved, there are plenty of morons assigned to be the jury in high profile cases. Bam, you no longer have a slam-dunk murder trial... not that the defendant would walk, but they'd easily be convicted of much less than they deserved.

Details like this can hang juries too, depending on their instructions. Now that slam dunk high profile trial costing a couple million dollars starts over from the beginning.

Are you going to claim these things don't happen?
 
2013-11-17 05:46:48 AM  

Surool: I made no claim about being a legal expert, but as the O.J. case proved, there are plenty of morons assigned to be the jury in high profile cases. Bam, you no longer have a slam-dunk murder trial...


I think the OJ case had a lot more issues at work than some random nutbag. (i.e. Race, the fact the guy was famous and rich...)

Unless this guy gets called a N*gger in the middle of court by Mark Fuhrman, I don't see this happening.
 
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