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(Bloomberg)   "If you have to pay $5,000 upfront" when illness hits, "you might as well not have any insurance at all," said a man who has no farking clue what he's talking about   (bloomberg.com) divider line 130
    More: Fail, obamacare, Anthem Blue Cross, cost sharing, Blue Cross Blue Shield, deductibles, Los Angeles Unified School District, high-deductible health plan, out-of-pocket costs  
•       •       •

2059 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Nov 2013 at 1:36 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



130 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-11-15 12:16:11 PM  
said Larry Saphire, 82, of West Orange, New Jersey, who shopped for coverage for his wife and two children, ages 16 and 21.

Someone's been making full use of his prescription plan benefits...
 
2013-11-15 12:32:06 PM  
OOGA BOOGA!!

This is like a million billion jillion times worse than having no insurance at all!
 
2013-11-15 12:36:10 PM  
And yet people are clamoring for their old insurance policies which were worse than these.

Idiots. Idiots in our country. Tons of them. Metric tons. Millions of metric tons of farking halfwits.
 
2013-11-15 12:38:23 PM  

The Onion is prophetic: said Larry Saphire, 82, of West Orange, New Jersey, who shopped for coverage for his wife and two children, ages 16 and 21.

Someone's been making full use of his prescription plan benefits...


This guy has no clue what risk actually means. I am guessing he is independently wealthy and is coming from a dishonest place to begin with. If he isn't independently wealthy, I have to ask, why would he ever consider having a child at retirement age?
 
2013-11-15 12:42:03 PM  

The Onion is prophetic: said Larry Saphire, 82, of West Orange, New Jersey, who shopped for coverage for his wife and two children, ages 16 and 21.

Someone's been making full use of his prescription plan benefits...


That guy must be one of sluts Limbaugh's been talking about lately...
 
2013-11-15 12:56:30 PM  
TWELVE! TWELVE VONDERFUL OBAMACARE THREADS TODAY BEFORE NOON!

AH HA HA HA!


www.vampires.be
 
2013-11-15 01:11:39 PM  
"In the current individual marketplace, consumers can face unlimited out-of-pocket expenses for plans with limited benefits and high deductibles, if they can even get coverage without being denied for a pre-existing condition,"

And this is why traditional HDHPs are going away.

Excluding the $50/month scam insurances (which really are scams), the issue isn't "crappy plans" vs "less-crappy plans": it's that with the elimination of the medical underwriting requirement and the end of lifetime caps, insurance companies can no longer remain in business by offering the traditional HDHPs with low premiums, because any patients in such plans who do get sick have the opportunity of switching to guaranteed-issue ACA-compliant plans at the start of the next open enrollment period.

Pre-ACA, you could choose a traditional HDHP during their healthy years, and if you broke your leg, you'd pay the deductible and retain the plan. You ran the risk of getting cancer, however, in which case you'd pay that out-of-pocket-max every year. If your plan had a lifetime expense cap that was too low, you would then either go bankrupt or die. Medical underwriting requirements for individual policies meant that you became uninsurable if you got sick, or were only insurable at rates comparable to the cost of your actual care: actuarially speaking, that's the same thing.

Post-ACA, consider what happens if everyone could carry a traditional catastrophic/HDHP during their healthy years, pay the out-of-pocket-max for one and only one year if they were unfortunate enough to get Expensively Sick(tm), and immediately transition to a metal plan with no medical underwriting requirement? Healthy? Pay $150/month for HDHP. Broken leg? Pay $10K deductible. Cancer with expected 5-year chemotherapy course that'll cost $200-500K? Pay $10K deductible and switch to a $1K/month platinum plan next year. HDHP and catastrophic plans cease to be economically viable when you, frugal consumer with a high-deductible plan, have the opportunity to switch providers/plans the moment you know your expected future medical costs will exceed what the insurance companies' actuarial tables predicted at the time they issued your policy.

As a result of the individual mandate, the irresponsible/uninsured can no longer "freeload" off the hospitals by showing up at the ER in the event that they get sick. The corollary is that the responsibly-insured HDHP policyholder who does get sick can no longer "freeload" off the insurance industry by carrying catastrophic-only coverage until the first chronic illness strikes, and then immediately switching to a platinum plan.

Yes, the ACA-compliant plans, even the bronze ones, are more expensive than catastrophic/HDHP plans, but they're reasonably-priced if you consider the additional actuarial risk the insurance companies have been asked to take on.
 
2013-11-15 01:32:08 PM  
We had to pay $2000 deductible for my husband's brain tumor surgery, which cost the insurance company $180,000.

But, hey, good thing no one gets that sick or needs health insurance, anymore, right?

Right?
 
2013-11-15 01:40:53 PM  
I kind of like that idea. Charge those using the system the most. While we're at it, let's get rid of the Duggar discount and insure by individuals rather than families. Me and the wife are tired of subsidizing the birth factories.
 
2013-11-15 01:41:01 PM  
Americans seeking cheap insurance on the Obamacare health exchanges may be in for sticker shock if they get sick next year, as consumers trade lower premiums for out-of-pocket costs that can top $6,000 a person.

Lower? Maybe lower premiums than higher level plans, but higher deductibles AND higher premiums than they had before.
 
2013-11-15 01:41:07 PM  

johnnieconnie: We had to pay $2000 deductible for my husband's brain tumor surgery, which cost the insurance company $180,000.

But, hey, good thing no one gets that sick or needs health insurance, anymore, right?

Right?


I hope your husband does alright.  I'm thankful that I Iive in a country that has no such thing as a deductible, cap or co-pay.
 
2013-11-15 01:41:12 PM  

johnnieconnie: We had to pay $2000 deductible for my husband's brain tumor surgery, which cost the insurance company $180,000.

But, hey, good thing no one gets that sick or needs health insurance, anymore, right?

Right?


Obviously that would have been better covered by those $50-a-month pseudo-insurance plans out there.
 
2013-11-15 01:42:20 PM  
Why, a good Brain Surgery shouldn't cost more than $12!  No procedure could possibly cost more than these insanely high deductibles!
 
2013-11-15 01:42:35 PM  
Talked to a guy last night, he said he lost BCBS coverage because of ACA.  Ok, probably because of women's coverage.

And if you get a new one, it'll cost like 10 bucks more a month.  Big. F*cking. deal.

Um, I'm no mathematician here, but if everyone is getting preventive care (diagnostics), isn't the incident rate going to be lower?  Imaging is a f*ck ton cheaper than a) loss productivity at work and b) chemo for years.

We're not talking enough about the preventive side of things.  You know, the really cheap alternative to having to treat cancer, diabetes and heart failure.
 
2013-11-15 01:43:40 PM  
 "If you have to pay $5,000 upfront" when illness hits, "you might as well not have any insurance at all," said a man typical dumbass, brainwashed by big business american who has no farking clue what he's talking about
 
2013-11-15 01:45:12 PM  

coeyagi: Um, I'm no mathematician here, but if everyone is getting preventive care (diagnostics), isn't the incident rate going to be lower?  Imaging is a f*ck ton cheaper than a) loss productivity at work and b) chemo for years.


...and a $4/mo WalMart prescription for hypertension is cheaper than repeated ambulance rides, ER treatment and ICU recovery.

But it just feels like some lazy bum is taking something from me!!1!
 
2013-11-15 01:45:12 PM  
Can we drop this torrent of wasted time and energy and get single payer already? We can start it out in one blue state someplace and see how it goes. Texas can keep it's "Lets pretend everyone has healthcare" dreamland.  We can then compare the two and go from there.
 
2013-11-15 01:45:49 PM  
Class is in session.  shhhh!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1RO93OS0Sk
 
2013-11-15 01:46:41 PM  

lockers: The Onion is prophetic: said Larry Saphire, 82, of West Orange, New Jersey, who shopped for coverage for his wife and two children, ages 16 and 21.

Someone's been making full use of his prescription plan benefits...

This guy has no clue what risk actually means. I am guessing he is independently wealthy and is coming from a dishonest place to begin with. If he isn't independently wealthy, I have to ask, why would he ever consider having a child at retirement age?


I wonder what insurance options are open to an 82 y.o.
 
2013-11-15 01:47:20 PM  

Linux_Yes: "If you have to pay $5,000 upfront" when illness hits, "you might as well not have any insurance at all," said a man typical dumbass, brainwashed by big business american who has no farking clue what he's talking about


$5000 is 3 rounds of golf for the oncology department after they plop out that vermin from inside your skull.  They probably like also need money for overhead, malpractice insurance, supporting their families and Bentley payments.

$5000.  Ha, they don't come in to work to take a sh*t and water the ficus for $5000.
 
2013-11-15 01:48:15 PM  
Twilight Farkle:

This is a long read, but everyone should read it because it explains perfectly what we are looking at.
 
2013-11-15 01:52:12 PM  
Uh, this is kind of where I am. I'm signing up for Obamacare, and I'll get it subsidized. Nice, health insurance. Except for one thing-- all the plans I was looking at, the deductibles are pretty damn high: at least $1500, and some of them were a lot more. So I won't be going to the doctor for anything less than cancer, even with Obamacare, for the same reason I don't go now: I can't afford to.

It's not like all the poors are going to get covered and then swarm to the doctors like a bunch of greedy locusts, disgusting and horrifying those with real jobs. We still can't afford it.
 
2013-11-15 01:53:35 PM  

coeyagi: We're not talking enough about the preventive side of things.  You know, the really cheap alternative to having to treat cancer, diabetes and heart failure.


My employer's health plan has been focusing a bit more on preventative care for the past few years.  All preventative care doctor visits are no cost (even pre-deductible), and you get discounts on your premiums if you participate in the 'wellness' programs they have available.  I'm saving $520 a year by following through with this stuff.
 
2013-11-15 01:57:45 PM  
Considering my mom thought it was better to go to mexico for a cholecystectomy, and her final bill was 3000, I can see why people have a point

Yeah, 3000 for surgery room, surgeon, anesthesiologist, hospital stay altogether...
 
2013-11-15 01:57:48 PM  
$6,000 in Max out of pocket (MOOP) is a pretty standard number for even Medicare Advantage Plans.  Anyone care to guess what MOOP is for regular Medicare?
 
2013-11-15 01:58:01 PM  

edmo: I kind of like that idea. Charge those using the system the most. While we're at it, let's get rid of the Duggar discount and insure by individuals rather than families. Me and the wife are tired of subsidizing the birth factories.


Due to a different conversations I looked into the insurance offered to the pools of students at a local university.  For basic coverage (80% of medical costs) it was $500 for the student and $1000 for every family member.  The high end coverage was an additional $250 more and covered 100% of medical costs for the student and $500 for each additional family member.

For 100% coverage for my family comes to about $120/month less than what I currently pay.  All I need to do is take one class (employer will reimburses tuition).
 
2013-11-15 02:02:54 PM  
Seriously? You're going to complain about a $5,000 deducbitle? Insurance companies used to sell plans that had $50,000 deductibles!
 
2013-11-15 02:05:24 PM  

Twilight Farkle: And this is why traditional HDHPs are going away.

..

What in the holy fark, a thoughtful post in a politics thread?
 
2013-11-15 02:07:11 PM  
I've been insured my whole life, and several times had care that, even insured, cost me over $5000 out of pocket.
 
2013-11-15 02:11:07 PM  
Just curious about how deductibles work.  If you break your leg and get a by-pass on the same visit, is that one deductible or two.
 
2013-11-15 02:15:30 PM  

mrshowrules: Just curious about how deductibles work.  If you break your leg and get a by-pass on the same visit, is that one deductible or two.


At least two, probably more.  At it's most basic, you pay a deductible every time your insurance company has to pay to a different claim.  So you could pay a deductible to the department that took your x-rays, reset your bones, applied your cast, anesthetized you for the by pass, ran the myriad tests before the surgery, performed the surgery itself, and to the room where you slept it off in the hospital for about 2500 dollars a night.

Honestly though, you'd never get those two procedures done in one visit.
 
2013-11-15 02:18:18 PM  

cryinoutloud: Uh, this is kind of where I am. I'm signing up for Obamacare, and I'll get it subsidized. Nice, health insurance. Except for one thing-- all the plans I was looking at, the deductibles are pretty damn high: at least $1500, and some of them were a lot more. So I won't be going to the doctor for anything less than cancer, even with Obamacare, for the same reason I don't go now: I can't afford to.

It's not like all the poors are going to get covered and then swarm to the doctors like a bunch of greedy locusts, disgusting and horrifying those with real jobs. We still can't afford it.


You DO realize that a $60 co-pay for a doctor's visit isn't after you pay the deductible, correct?  Neither are the rx co-pays.  The deductible is what you have to pay before they start paying they 70-80% and leaving you with the 30-20% of tests, hospitalization, etc.

Hint:  You can go to the doctor if you are sick and afford to do that.  That's the whole point.
 
2013-11-15 02:19:09 PM  

Turbo Cojones: $6,000 in Max out of pocket (MOOP) is a pretty standard number for even Medicare Advantage Plans.  Anyone care to guess what MOOP is for regular Medicare?


I'm sorry, the card says "Moops."
 
2013-11-15 02:21:04 PM  
I'm looking on ehealthinsurance.com.

A 41 year old male, zip code 30101 with a BCBS 2013 plan is $199/month with a $3500 deductible, 20% copay, and $35 office visits.

The cheapest 2014 plan is $207/month with a $12,600 deductible.A $3500 deductible plan comes in around $272lmonth.
 
2013-11-15 02:21:59 PM  

Amish Tech Support: Can we drop this torrent of wasted time and energy and get single payer already? We can start it out in one blue state someplace and see how it goes. Texas can keep it's "Lets pretend everyone has healthcare" dreamland.  We can then compare the two and go from there.


Talk your state into it. Vermont was trying to get it going. The thing to worry about though is the fact that total health care expenditures in the US are about 15.7% GDP. GDP is about $14 trillion, so that's roughly $2.2 trillion. But actually almost half of that is paid out by the government, so total private expenditures are about 8.6% GDP or roughly $1.2 trillion per year. Would it be ok with you to add that to the deficit and pile that onto the national debt every year? What would FICA taxes have to be to keep it, or most of it, from ending up as debt?
 
2013-11-15 02:23:04 PM  

lockers: The Onion is prophetic: said Larry Saphire, 82, of West Orange, New Jersey, who shopped for coverage for his wife and two children, ages 16 and 21.

Someone's been making full use of his prescription plan benefits...

This guy has no clue what risk actually means. I am guessing he is independently wealthy and is coming from a dishonest place to begin with. If he isn't independently wealthy, I have to ask, why would he ever consider having a child at retirement age?


They are step children. They came with the stripper he married a couple years ago.
 
2013-11-15 02:23:58 PM  

BeesNuts: mrshowrules: Just curious about how deductibles work.  If you break your leg and get a by-pass on the same visit, is that one deductible or two.

At least two, probably more. At it's most basic, you pay a deductible every time your insurance company has to pay to a different claim.  So you could pay a deductible to the department that took your x-rays, reset your bones, applied your cast, anesthetized you for the by pass, ran the myriad tests before the surgery, performed the surgery itself, and to the room where you slept it off in the hospital for about 2500 dollars a night.

Honestly though, you'd never get those two procedures done in one visit.


Ummm.... no. I think you're thinking of property/casualty insurance where each incident has a separate deductible.

In medical insurance, the deductible is an annual, cumulative thing. If you have a $1000 deductible, that means that the first $1000 annually comes out of your own pocket, regardless of how many medical issues it takes to get there. They're not separate deductibles for each individual visit.

After the deductible is met, then co-insurance kicks in (80/20, 70/30, etc.). You pay co-insurance until your annual out-of-pocket max is met. Once the OOP is done, then the insurance company pays 100% of costs until the end of the year.
 
2013-11-15 02:27:30 PM  
the deductible can be high
but if you are poor to begin with

(as i understand it)
the first costs count toward your deductible whether you pay them or not
(so in that example i now have a 5000 bill )(which gets filed somewhere out of the way)
afterward the hospital is assured of recieving something

unlike now where (with my current income) they write off 3/4 of the bill from the start

or in other words
prior to this  (using the 5000 deductible and 6000 payout in a year as my target)(and at my income now)

the hospital would be out 3/4 of 11,000 or 8250 dollars
now the hospital would be out 5000 dollars

/at least thats what i seem to be looking at right now
 
2013-11-15 02:29:39 PM  

BeesNuts: mrshowrules: Just curious about how deductibles work.  If you break your leg and get a by-pass on the same visit, is that one deductible or two.

At least two, probably more.  At it's most basic, you pay a deductible every time your insurance company has to pay to a different claim.  So you could pay a deductible to the department that took your x-rays, reset your bones, applied your cast, anesthetized you for the by pass, ran the myriad tests before the surgery, performed the surgery itself, and to the room where you slept it off in the hospital for about 2500 dollars a night.

Honestly though, you'd never get those two procedures done in one visit.


Typically deductibles are per year. We have a $5000 per year deductible at work. A coworker timed a pregnancy for early in the year so her pre-natal care and birth all fell in the same year so it'd cost her $5000.

Are these exchanges offering per incident deductibles? That's disappointing, if true.
 
2013-11-15 02:29:46 PM  

BeesNuts: mrshowrules: Just curious about how deductibles work.  If you break your leg and get a by-pass on the same visit, is that one deductible or two.

At least two, probably more.  At it's most basic, you pay a deductible every time your insurance company has to pay to a different claim.  So you could pay a deductible to the department that took your x-rays, reset your bones, applied your cast, anesthetized you for the by pass, ran the myriad tests before the surgery, performed the surgery itself, and to the room where you slept it off in the hospital for about 2500 dollars a night.

Honestly though, you'd never get those two procedures done in one visit.


Not a good example on my part.  In Canada, anytime they do abdominal surgery, they take out your appendix at the same time (if you agree I assume).  So that would be one deductible right?
 
2013-11-15 02:33:14 PM  
When I broke my leg a decade ago I had no insurance. For 3 days in the hospital they charged me 30k.

5k didn't even cover the cost of the sanitary bandages they used...
 
2013-11-15 02:39:45 PM  

mrshowrules: BeesNuts: mrshowrules: Just curious about how deductibles work.  If you break your leg and get a by-pass on the same visit, is that one deductible or two.

At least two, probably more.  At it's most basic, you pay a deductible every time your insurance company has to pay to a different claim.  So you could pay a deductible to the department that took your x-rays, reset your bones, applied your cast, anesthetized you for the by pass, ran the myriad tests before the surgery, performed the surgery itself, and to the room where you slept it off in the hospital for about 2500 dollars a night.

Honestly though, you'd never get those two procedures done in one visit.

Not a good example on my part.  In Canada, anytime they do abdominal surgery, they take out your appendix at the same time (if you agree I assume).  So that would be one deductible right?


The response was bad. US medical insurance has an annualized deductible, not a per-incident one.

My wife had a baby this year, so we hit our deductible and max out-of-pocket in one fell swoop. We didn't have to pay separate deductibles for prenatal care, the hospital, postnatal checkups, etc.

img.fark.net
 
2013-11-15 02:40:55 PM  

MrSplifferton: When I broke my leg a decade ago I had no insurance. For 3 days in the hospital they charged me 30k.

5k didn't even cover the cost of the sanitary bandages they used...


That is how single-payer really saves money.  The hospital gives the Province (in my case) a bill for $30,000K and the Provincial Health Department says, go sharpen your pencil sparky, we will give you $9,000 and you'll like it.

Of course the doctors save a fortune being able to submit a claims for absolutely every patient they see.  The motivation becomes helping as many people as possible versus lumping as much charges as possible on those patients with the best insurance.

They gave you a $30K bill because they knew you had insurance.  If you had no insurance, would your bill have been smaller you think?  Honest question.
 
2013-11-15 02:43:14 PM  

BKITU: mrshowrules: BeesNuts: mrshowrules: Just curious about how deductibles work.  If you break your leg and get a by-pass on the same visit, is that one deductible or two.

At least two, probably more.  At it's most basic, you pay a deductible every time your insurance company has to pay to a different claim.  So you could pay a deductible to the department that took your x-rays, reset your bones, applied your cast, anesthetized you for the by pass, ran the myriad tests before the surgery, performed the surgery itself, and to the room where you slept it off in the hospital for about 2500 dollars a night.

Honestly though, you'd never get those two procedures done in one visit.

Not a good example on my part.  In Canada, anytime they do abdominal surgery, they take out your appendix at the same time (if you agree I assume).  So that would be one deductible right?

The response was bad. US medical insurance has an annualized deductible, not a per-incident one.

My wife had a baby this year, so we hit our deductible and max out-of-pocket in one fell swoop. We didn't have to pay separate deductibles for prenatal care, the hospital, postnatal checkups, etc.

[img.fark.net image 762x401]


Thanks for that explanation.  Makes more sense.  I can't help but think that if people have a serious condition near the end of one year where they didn't have any other problems, they would try and bide their time until they hit the next annual cycle.
 
2013-11-15 02:44:28 PM  

The Onion is prophetic: said Larry Saphire, 82, of West Orange, New Jersey, who shopped for coverage for his wife and two children, ages 16 and 21.

Someone's been making full use of his prescription plan benefits...


I think I located the guy in my picture!

img.fark.net
 
2013-11-15 02:45:04 PM  

jigger: Amish Tech Support: Can we drop this torrent of wasted time and energy and get single payer already? We can start it out in one blue state someplace and see how it goes. Texas can keep it's "Lets pretend everyone has healthcare" dreamland.  We can then compare the two and go from there.

Talk your state into it. Vermont was trying to get it going. The thing to worry about though is the fact that total health care expenditures in the US are about 15.7% GDP. GDP is about $14 trillion, so that's roughly $2.2 trillion. But actually almost half of that is paid out by the government, so total private expenditures are about 8.6% GDP or roughly $1.2 trillion per year. Would it be ok with you to add that to the deficit and pile that onto the national debt every year? What would FICA taxes have to be to keep it, or most of it, from ending up as debt?


Except for the part where single payer is proven to lower costs, so no, you wouldn't be tacking that full amount on.
 
2013-11-15 02:46:04 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: The Onion is prophetic: said Larry Saphire, 82, of West Orange, New Jersey, who shopped for coverage for his wife and two children, ages 16 and 21.

Someone's been making full use of his prescription plan benefits...

That guy must be one of sluts Limbaugh's been talking about lately...


Lately like 2 years ago?
 
2013-11-15 02:48:04 PM  

Satan's Bunny Slippers: You DO realize that a $60 co-pay for a doctor's visit isn't after you pay the deductible, correct?  Neither are the rx co-pays.  The deductible is what you have to pay before they start paying they 70-80% and leaving you with the 30-20% of tests, hospitalization, etc.
Hint:  You can go to the doctor if you are sick and afford to do that.  That's the whole point.


Then where do they start deducting your deductible? What sort of service counts as deductible, if not a visit to the clinic? Because the only time I ever had insurance, everything single thing counted toward the deductible, If you didn't max it out and were healthy, you had insurance but still had to pay for everything anyway. Unless you were dying, Then it was great, of course.

Granted I don't know much about health insurance, but the times I've dealt with it, it was so shiatty that I never wanted to bankrupt myself trying to get insurance that wouldn't pay for anything unless I was in the hospital anyway.
 
2013-11-15 02:51:37 PM  

mrshowrules: Thanks for that explanation.  Makes more sense.  I can't help but think that if people have a serious condition near the end of one year where they didn't have any other problems, they would try and bide their time until they hit the next annual cycle.


Oh, that happens all the time. The inverse is also true -- since my OOP is done for the year, we're squeezing as many procedures we'd procrastinated on into this year as we can. Everything (medically necessary) we have done between now and 11:59:59 December 31 is at no cost to us.

Similar note: my best friend got absolutely boned once after a major (nearly fatal) injury. Hospitalization, months of post-injury treatments, and so on. He was still on his parents' insurance back then (we were in college), and they had just announced a switch of insurance companies the same month as his injury. So... deductible and max OOP on one plan to treat the immediate trauma, the 1st of the month rolled, the new company took over, and a new deductible and max OOP to cover the ongoing treatments.
 
2013-11-15 02:53:26 PM  

mrshowrules: MrSplifferton: When I broke my leg a decade ago I had no insurance. For 3 days in the hospital they charged me 30k.

5k didn't even cover the cost of the sanitary bandages they used...

That is how single-payer really saves money.  The hospital gives the Province (in my case) a bill for $30,000K and the Provincial Health Department says, go sharpen your pencil sparky, we will give you $9,000 and you'll like it.

Of course the doctors save a fortune being able to submit a claims for absolutely every patient they see.  The motivation becomes helping as many people as possible versus lumping as much charges as possible on those patients with the best insurance.

They gave you a $30K bill because they knew you had insurance.  If you had no insurance, would your bill have been smaller you think?  Honest question.


I didn't have insurance. It also doesn't include the cost of the surgery. Total was over 50k. They did offer to cut the bill in half.

I figured that they didn't expect to get paid and they would use the higher number as a write off on their taxes.
 
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