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(STLToday)   Molina, Jesus, named MLB's MVPs   (stltoday.com) divider line 59
    More: Cool, Molina, Major League Baseball, MVP, National League MVP, Andrew McCutchen, Red Sox, Baseball Writers Association of America, Allen Craig  
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1508 clicks; posted to Sports » on 15 Nov 2013 at 9:02 AM (36 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-15 08:36:48 AM
Let me tell you something. You pull any of your crazy shiat with us, you flash a piece out on the lanes, I'll take it away from you, stick it up your ass and pull the farking trigger 'til it goes "click".
 
2013-11-15 08:54:59 AM
Molina, Jesus, named MLB's MVPs

images.encyclopediadramatica.es
 
2013-11-15 09:12:52 AM
This Friday!  Cabrera and McCutcheon are Jesus and Molina.  And Finkle.  And Einhorn.  And Eddie Murphy and Arsenio Hall.  And Oates.  And that LOL WUT guy up above.  And Andy Kaufman.  See them all in "What the F*ck is Subby Talking About?"
/Rated Potato
 
2013-11-15 09:13:57 AM
Go home thread, you're drunk
 
2013-11-15 09:16:12 AM
I don't get it
 
2013-11-15 09:20:54 AM
I see what you were trying to do there, subby.
 
2013-11-15 09:28:01 AM
Well I'm raps MVP
 
2013-11-15 09:35:32 AM
ASSuming subby is on the East Coast - it's 9:30am on a Friday and you're drunk already?

Kudos, my good sir, kudos.

www.ezeedictionary.com
 
2013-11-15 09:42:42 AM
TROUT WAS ROBBED!!!

/Not really
//Just figured I'd get it out of the way.
 
2013-11-15 10:00:04 AM

rcantley: TROUT WAS ROBBED!!!

/Not really
//Just figured I'd get it out of the way.


I'm a Miggy slappy and a Tigers homer... I would have voted for Trout this year over Miggy.  Yeah, it was due to injury, but Miggy's September was quite mediocre.
 
2013-11-15 10:39:12 AM

meanmutton: rcantley: TROUT WAS ROBBED!!!

/Not really
//Just figured I'd get it out of the way.

I'm a Miggy slappy and a Tigers homer... I would have voted for Trout this year over Miggy.  Yeah, it was due to injury, but Miggy's September was quite mediocre.


The fact that he still continued to play with the injury he had gives him some bonus points I think.
 
2013-11-15 10:42:28 AM

usttsdw: The fact that he still continued to play with the injury he had gives him some bonus points I think.


Depends on who you ask. Cabrera supporters see a guy playing with heart who kept playing because his teem needed him. Cabrera opponents see a guy reduced to an above average hitter who can't run and struggles to field anything not hit directly to him.
 
2013-11-15 10:46:02 AM

rcf1105: usttsdw: The fact that he still continued to play with the injury he had gives him some bonus points I think.

Depends on who you ask. Cabrera supporters see a guy playing with heart who kept playing because his teem needed him. Cabrera opponents see a guy reduced to an above average hitter who can't run and struggles to field anything not hit directly to him.


Yea, but do you throw away his entire season because of a single month? I'm not arguing the fact that he sucked balls in Sept and the post season, but prior to the injury, it was just flat out amazing how easy he made hitting look.
 
2013-11-15 10:50:05 AM

usttsdw: meanmutton: rcantley: TROUT WAS ROBBED!!!

/Not really
//Just figured I'd get it out of the way.

I'm a Miggy slappy and a Tigers homer... I would have voted for Trout this year over Miggy.  Yeah, it was due to injury, but Miggy's September was quite mediocre.

The fact that he still continued to play with the injury he had gives him some bonus points I think.


It makes me respect him more, no doubt.  However, his value to the team over that last month was diminished enough that when you look at the season as a whole, I would have rather had a full season of Trout over a season-minus-a-month of Miggy.
 
2013-11-15 11:09:28 AM

meanmutton: I'm a Miggy slappy and a Tigers homer... I would have voted for Trout this year over Miggy. Yeah, it was due to injury, but Miggy's September was quite mediocre.


You know, I'm glad you said that. I've seen far too many people that I KNOW said last year that Miggy was MVP because he hit so well in September, then still supported Miggy for MVP this year, instead of, say, Josh Donaldson.

I don't actually care what criteria people use for MVP, just as long as it's consistent.
 
2013-11-15 11:11:41 AM

DeWayne Mann: I don't actually care what criteria people use for MVP, just as long as it's consistent.


Hell, 10 years ago A-Rod won MVP on a last place team.
 
2013-11-15 11:17:56 AM

DeWayne Mann: meanmutton: I'm a Miggy slappy and a Tigers homer... I would have voted for Trout this year over Miggy. Yeah, it was due to injury, but Miggy's September was quite mediocre.

You know, I'm glad you said that. I've seen far too many people that I KNOW said last year that Miggy was MVP because he hit so well in September, then still supported Miggy for MVP this year, instead of, say, Josh Donaldson.

I don't actually care what criteria people use for MVP, just as long as it's consistent.


Yeah.  Somehow, according to some folks, Trout fading in September is a knock against, but Miggy fading in September is a plus.  Somehow.

Given that the Angels kinda sucked, Trout wasn't coming near the award.  And Trout wasn't as good this year as he was last year (where the hell did his defense go?)  But he had a better year than Miggy, objectively speaking.
 
2013-11-15 11:23:13 AM

rcf1105: DeWayne Mann: I don't actually care what criteria people use for MVP, just as long as it's consistent.

Hell, 10 years ago A-Rod won MVP on a last place team.


Oh, there's absolutely no consistent pattern to MVP voting at all. I mean, shoot, a part-time closer was the 1984 AL MVP.

And yet people still use them in things like HOF debates. Which is incredibly bizarre.
 
2013-11-15 11:27:02 AM

Dafatone: Miggy fading in September is a plus. Somehow.


Someone on MLBN yesterday literally said that him hitting .200 while hurt showed he was the MVP. I don't remember who it was so I'm gonna pin it on Harold Reynolds.

He's the worst.

Dafatone: And Trout wasn't as good this year as he was last year (where the hell did his defense go?)


You often see someone's defense suffer when they switch back and forth between two spots, though it's bit odd that it happened with left and center.

The bigger issue is that last year he had 4 or 5 home run robs and this year he had 0. Obviously, that's a bit of a fluky thing in general, but those are worth quite a bit in the advanced metrics.
 
2013-11-15 11:31:28 AM

Rex_Banner: I see what you were trying to do there, subby.


Explain for the rest of us?
 
2013-11-15 11:36:12 AM

DeWayne Mann: Dafatone: Miggy fading in September is a plus. Somehow.

Someone on MLBN yesterday literally said that him hitting .200 while hurt showed he was the MVP. I don't remember who it was so I'm gonna pin it on Harold Reynolds.

He's the worst.

Dafatone: And Trout wasn't as good this year as he was last year (where the hell did his defense go?)

You often see someone's defense suffer when they switch back and forth between two spots, though it's bit odd that it happened with left and center.

The bigger issue is that last year he had 4 or 5 home run robs and this year he had 0. Obviously, that's a bit of a fluky thing in general, but those are worth quite a bit in the advanced metrics.


A home run rob is like, 0.6 WAR if I remember the chart correctly.

Why are they moving him at all?  Why did he play 60 something games, 29 starts, in left last year (I hadn't realized that.)  I know they have a lot of outfielders, many of which can play center, but come on.  If Mike Trout isn't locked into center field for your future, you're probably Mike Scioscia.

Ah.  That explains it.
 
2013-11-15 11:37:00 AM
Everyone knows Jesus can't hit a curve ball.
 
2013-11-15 11:43:05 AM
Articles like that is why everyone hates STL fans.
 
2013-11-15 11:45:00 AM

Dafatone: A home run rob is like, 0.6 WAR if I remember the chart correctly.


Not quite that much. It's generally around .2, though the exact amount depends on the run environment (homers are worth more if scoring is down).

Remember that WAR is essentially 10 * RunsAR, so .6 WAR is roughly 6 runs. Homers are rarely worth that much. However, since home run robs are rare, if you get one, you get full credit for the play

Dafatone: Why are they moving him at all? Why did he play 60 something games, 29 starts, in left last year (I hadn't realized that.) I know they have a lot of outfielders, many of which can play center, but come on. If Mike Trout isn't locked into center field for your future, you're probably Mike Scioscia.


As good as Trout is, Peter Bourjos is probably the best defensive CF in the game.

He's just also really good at getting hurt.
 
2013-11-15 11:48:33 AM

This Looks Fun: Rex_Banner: I see what you were trying to do there, subby.

Explain for the rest of us?


Jesus = (Matt) Carpenter because Jesus was a carpenter. It's a stretch, and subby apparently can't read headlines or articles properly, but that's what he/she was going for
 
2013-11-15 11:52:37 AM

DeWayne Mann: Dafatone: A home run rob is like, 0.6 WAR if I remember the chart correctly.

Not quite that much. It's generally around .2, though the exact amount depends on the run environment (homers are worth more if scoring is down).

Remember that WAR is essentially 10 * RunsAR, so .6 WAR is roughly 6 runs. Homers are rarely worth that much. However, since home run robs are rare, if you get one, you get full credit for the play

Dafatone: Why are they moving him at all? Why did he play 60 something games, 29 starts, in left last year (I hadn't realized that.) I know they have a lot of outfielders, many of which can play center, but come on. If Mike Trout isn't locked into center field for your future, you're probably Mike Scioscia.

As good as Trout is, Peter Bourjos is probably the best defensive CF in the game.

He's just also really good at getting hurt.


I was being ironical, about the chart.  I think.

And the best defensive CF is Juan Lagares.  I've barely seen Bourjos play, and therefore I am uniquely qualified to make that comment.
 
2013-11-15 11:54:58 AM

bacongood: Articles like that is why everyone hates STL fans.


Indeed.  I mean WTF is the St. Louis Post-Dispatch's Cardinal beat writer doing writing an article about about where Cardinal players ended up in MVP voting?  The nerve!

And don't get me started on the players.  Farking dicks.  Just listen to these guys:

Molina, raging about not being selected:  "Just seeing my name on the ballot as a top three finalist for the Most Valuable Player title in the National League brings me great satisfaction because this accolade means a lot. You go out on the field every day and play hard to accomplish goals."  Simmer down there, Molina.

Molina again, this time setting his sites on McCucthen:  "I extend a heartfelt congratulation to Andrew McCutchen for winning (the) MVP."  What a douche!

Here's Wainwright just unloading on McCutchen:   "Andrew is a great player, but I think Yadi is more deserving."  Man, that's some real Hatfield and McCoys-level rivalry there.

And you brought up the fans.  Don't even get me started.  Look at this one quote from TFA from a random fan on the street....OK, well there's nothing about the fans in there, but still.  Assholes!
 
2013-11-15 11:56:40 AM
I'd Like to point out that the only two people who voted Molina in first place Are the clearly biased writers from St. Louis.
 
2013-11-15 11:57:25 AM

Dafatone: I've barely seen Bourjos play, and therefore I am uniquely qualified to make that comment.


Starting your HOF vote campaign, I see.
 
2013-11-15 12:02:18 PM
Would've gone Trout but Cabrera doesn't bother me (in other words, last year). Would've gone with Cutch too. This works for me.

And yes, Juan Lagares is stupid bonkers in CF.
 
2013-11-15 12:06:24 PM

FreakinB: Would've gone Trout but Cabrera doesn't bother me (in other words, last year). Would've gone with Cutch too. This works for me.

And yes, Juan Lagares is stupid bonkers in CF.


Which is why we're going to trade for some bad center fielder.  Woo.
 
2013-11-15 12:06:51 PM
I find it hard to believe that Pedroia and Ortiz didn't get so much as one first place vote from any writer, but then Boston this year was much more of a team effort than previous years, so I guess it reflects well on everybody. But seriously, does no one credit defense at *all* in these votes? I mean Pedroia was easily the best defender in his position hands down, and Molina is freaking godly at that plate, the whole package right there. Miggy can't field for shiat on a good day, and he didn't have many of those this year.
 
2013-11-15 12:08:27 PM

Shrugging Atlas: bacongood: Articles like that is why everyone hates STL fans.

Indeed.  I mean WTF is the St. Louis Post-Dispatch's Cardinal beat writer doing writing an article about about where Cardinal players ended up in MVP voting?  The nerve!

And don't get me started on the players.  Farking dicks.  Just listen to these guys:

Molina, raging about not being selected:  "Just seeing my name on the ballot as a top three finalist for the Most Valuable Player title in the National League brings me great satisfaction because this accolade means a lot. You go out on the field every day and play hard to accomplish goals."  Simmer down there, Molina.

Molina again, this time setting his sites on McCucthen:  "I extend a heartfelt congratulation to Andrew McCutchen for winning (the) MVP."  What a douche!

Here's Wainwright just unloading on McCutchen:   "Andrew is a great player, but I think Yadi is more deserving."  Man, that's some real Hatfield and McCoys-level rivalry there.

And you brought up the fans.  Don't even get me started.  Look at this one quote from TFA from a random fan on the street....OK, well there's nothing about the fans in there, but still.  Assholes!


It starts out complaining that the two WS teams didn't win any awards (because that is relevant how?) and also states that the Dispatch voters voted for Molina.  It was less about where they placed and where the write thought they deserved to be placed.

The beat writers, for better or worse, are the voice of the fans.
 
2013-11-15 12:14:57 PM

deadsanta: I find it hard to believe that Pedroia and Ortiz didn't get so much as one first place vote from any writer, but then Boston this year was much more of a team effort than previous years, so I guess it reflects well on everybody. But seriously, does no one credit defense at *all* in these votes? I mean Pedroia was easily the best defender in his position hands down, and Molina is freaking godly at that plate, the whole package right there. Miggy can't field for shiat on a good day, and he didn't have many of those this year.


No.  Defense is not credited at all in these votes.
 
2013-11-15 12:17:42 PM

Dafatone: FreakinB: Would've gone Trout but Cabrera doesn't bother me (in other words, last year). Would've gone with Cutch too. This works for me.

And yes, Juan Lagares is stupid bonkers in CF.

Which is why we're going to trade for some bad center fielder.  Woo.


Ugh. I'd like to continue thinking that Sandy is better than that. I wouldn't mind a corner OF though.
 
2013-11-15 12:24:35 PM

bacongood: two WS teams didn't win any awards (because that is relevant how?)


Actually, that's sort of an interesting thing. I'm just gonna spitball here and make a bunch of generalizations and unfounded assumptions, so most people are better off ignoring this, but:

Let's assume that MVP generally means "best player on a playoff team" and ignore that the voters are kind of inconsistent. Also let's say that performance in September plays a big role.

Since the wild card era started, the MVPs almost never make the world series. That suggests at least one of four things to me:

1. The playoffs really are a crap shoot.
2. Having the best player isn't enough to win in the playoffs.
3. Performance in September isn't a great indicator of playoff performance.
4. Voters are dumb.

'Course, I'm fairly sure all 4 are true.
 
2013-11-15 12:29:52 PM

FreakinB: Dafatone: FreakinB: Would've gone Trout but Cabrera doesn't bother me (in other words, last year). Would've gone with Cutch too. This works for me.

And yes, Juan Lagares is stupid bonkers in CF.

Which is why we're going to trade for some bad center fielder.  Woo.

Ugh. I'd like to continue thinking that Sandy is better than that. I wouldn't mind a corner OF though.


Is it weird that I don't really care which corner OF?

Granderson would be alright.  Choo would be better but costlier, so let's knock him down to alright.  There's talk of Dexter Fowler, who can't hit outside of Coors.  We're not trading for CarGo.

So uh.  Granderson.  Let's sign him I guess.
 
2013-11-15 12:35:21 PM

Dafatone: FreakinB: Dafatone: FreakinB: Would've gone Trout but Cabrera doesn't bother me (in other words, last year). Would've gone with Cutch too. This works for me.

And yes, Juan Lagares is stupid bonkers in CF.

Which is why we're going to trade for some bad center fielder.  Woo.

Ugh. I'd like to continue thinking that Sandy is better than that. I wouldn't mind a corner OF though.

Is it weird that I don't really care which corner OF?

Granderson would be alright.  Choo would be better but costlier, so let's knock him down to alright.  There's talk of Dexter Fowler, who can't hit outside of Coors.  We're not trading for CarGo.

So uh.  Granderson.  Let's sign him I guess.


[i'mokwiththis.jpg]

I saw the stuff about Fowler too, and that wouldn't be good. But I've really only seen that on one blog so maybe there isn't much to it. I also saw they kicked the tires on Markakis, which I wouldn't mind.
 
2013-11-15 12:44:01 PM

bacongood: It starts out complaining that the two WS teams didn't win any awards (because that is relevant how?)


Nope.  Try reading it again, because that's not true.  In fact, it doesn't even mention the words World Series until near the end of the article.  It states nobody won from the two top teams (according to record) in the AL and NL.  They also happened to play each other in the World Series but again it's not even mentioned though that fact in itself is somewhat noteworthy since it hasn't happened in a while, but I digress.  And the opening of the article is hardly a complaint.  It's simply a statement of fact.

As for relevance, there's a train of thought among a lot of baseball writers (with which I disagree) that overall team success should impact the MVP vote.  It happens in other sports too....you seldom see a player from less successful teams with MVP regardless of their personal accomplishments unless they are just out of this world.

and also states that the Dispatch voters voted for Molina.  It was less about where they placed and where the write thought they deserved to be placed.

Well this accurate, but context is pretty important.  They're making an argument with statistics to validate their vote while also trying to demonstrate the fact that stats alone aren't always a good measure to determine the winner.  I don't see them bashing the ultimate decision of the other writers, or disparaging the choice of McCutchen.  The fact writers have different opinions and criteria on who should win what since there are no actual guidelines to follow is why they have the vote in the first place.

The beat writers, for better or worse, are the voice of the fans.

Well, that's quite simply not even remotely accurate.  A beat writer by definition is simply a journalist that focuses on a specific topic...team, branch of government, type of industry, whatever.  That focus and increased time dedicated to that specific entity typically allows for greater access and thus more in-depth knowledge.  If they are the 'voice' of anything, it would be the entity they cover, not the audience for which they cover it--and good beat writers aren't the voice of anything...they simply report the facts and in some cases personal opinions supported by those facts.   Your assertion is akin to saying the White House Correspondent for a specific news channel or paper is the voice of the voters
 
2013-11-15 12:46:35 PM
I just want to know what subby drank before posting this.  I wanna get that farked up so I can post dumb shiat like this. XD
 
2013-11-15 12:50:41 PM

FreakinB: Dafatone: FreakinB: Dafatone: FreakinB: Would've gone Trout but Cabrera doesn't bother me (in other words, last year). Would've gone with Cutch too. This works for me.

And yes, Juan Lagares is stupid bonkers in CF.

Which is why we're going to trade for some bad center fielder.  Woo.

Ugh. I'd like to continue thinking that Sandy is better than that. I wouldn't mind a corner OF though.

Is it weird that I don't really care which corner OF?

Granderson would be alright.  Choo would be better but costlier, so let's knock him down to alright.  There's talk of Dexter Fowler, who can't hit outside of Coors.  We're not trading for CarGo.

So uh.  Granderson.  Let's sign him I guess.

[i'mokwiththis.jpg]

I saw the stuff about Fowler too, and that wouldn't be good. But I've really only seen that on one blog so maybe there isn't much to it. I also saw they kicked the tires on Markakis, which I wouldn't mind.


Markakis could be a good cheap bargain.  Or terrible.  One of the two.

I'm worried the Mets will throw a lot of money at an SS, and a lot of money at a veteran pitcher (think a 3 year deal for Bronson Arroyo).  I want a cheap SS who can field (pre 2013 tejada would be fine), any warm body with an arm as a temporary #5 pitcher (Phil Hughes.  Cheap, could do well in pitcher's parks.  AL East is all launching pads) and the rest of the money / effort to go to hitting.
 
2013-11-15 01:17:54 PM

Dafatone: Is it weird that I don't really care which corner OF?

Granderson would be alright. Choo would be better but costlier, so let's knock him down to alright. There's talk of Dexter Fowler, who can't hit outside of Coors. We're not trading for CarGo.

So uh. Granderson. Let's sign him I guess.


Look at the bright side: at least the World's Stupidest GM has already made sure the Mets can't resign Marlon Byrd, and in fact, that no one would want to trade for him either.
 
2013-11-15 01:51:15 PM

usttsdw: The fact that he still continued to play with the injury he had gives him some bonus points I think.


Not with my mom. She's always yelling, "leave that damn thing alone and let it heal."
 
2013-11-15 02:23:06 PM

deadsanta: I find it hard to believe that Pedroia and Ortiz didn't get so much as one first place vote from any writer, but then Boston this year was much more of a team effort than previous years, so I guess it reflects well on everybody. But seriously, does no one credit defense at *all* in these votes? I mean Pedroia was easily the best defender in his position hands down, and Molina is freaking godly at that plate, the whole package right there. Miggy can't field for shiat on a good day, and he didn't have many of those this year.


Just wait until David Ortiz comes up for Hall of Fame voting as a DH.  Now figure in that David Ortiz in no way was ever a detriment to his team defensively the way some current AL Hall of Famers were.  In 5 years this will be a big argument, largely from the Boston guys, and I'm sure the Edgar Martinez backers in Seattle will climb aboard.
 
2013-11-15 02:29:55 PM
Tigers minus Cabrera they don't make the playoffs and finish second or even third in their division. Minus Cabrara's injury the Tigers might even make the World Series.  Angels minus Trout 4th place instead of third.
 
2013-11-15 02:40:29 PM

sparkeyjames: Tigers minus Cabrera they don't make the playoffs and finish second or even third in their division. Minus Cabrara's injury the Tigers might even make the World Series.  Angels minus Trout 4th place instead of third.


So I guess the obvious question is "Why should an individual award depend on what a player's teammates do?"
 
2013-11-15 02:51:56 PM

DeWayne Mann: sparkeyjames: Tigers minus Cabrera they don't make the playoffs and finish second or even third in their division. Minus Cabrara's injury the Tigers might even make the World Series.  Angels minus Trout 4th place instead of third.

So I guess the obvious question is "Why should an individual award depend on what a player's teammates do?"


And the obvious answer again goes back to "crappy copout for lazy writers"
Though, on the other hand, wait until writers start looking at how players improve or decline while hitting immediately aheadof or behind someone in the lineup.
 
2013-11-15 02:55:48 PM

DeWayne Mann: sparkeyjames: Tigers minus Cabrera they don't make the playoffs and finish second or even third in their division. Minus Cabrara's injury the Tigers might even make the World Series.  Angels minus Trout 4th place instead of third.

So I guess the obvious question is "Why should an individual award depend on what a player's teammates do?"


The logic--such as it is--relies on the belief the player in question should be so superior they alone can improve the overall level of success of the team.  If the player in question was so good, the theory is their team's record wouldn't be as bad as it is.  That's why stuff like WAR has become such a go-to stat for some people.

And that's one of the major problems with all this voting be it for MVP or HoF or even Gold Glove.  Every voter has a different idea of what constitutes an MVP or HoF eligible player.  Some rely purely on stats, some fall back on the whole morality clause, others scorn all that for 'intangibles.'  Some think the team's success or lack thereof should be a factor, others don't.

The whole process is imperfect, but it's probably as good as it will ever get because the alternative is to put a set of strict guidelines in place that make the entire process more of a mathematical equation to be solved than a voting process.
 
2013-11-15 02:59:53 PM
What a Yadier Molina might look like
 
2013-11-15 03:10:04 PM

Nana's Vibrator: wait until writers start looking at how


Haha, you think that the writers are interested in "looking into stuff."

Shrugging Atlas: The logic--such as it is--relies on the belief the player in question should be so superior they alone can improve the overall level of success of the team.


I'd love an explanation on how Mike Trout was supposed to make Joe Blanton stop giving up so many homers. Guess he should've lined up in the stands.
 
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