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(AZCentral)   One of the last remaining Navajo Code Talkers who helped America win World War II died on Veteran's Day   (azcentral.com ) divider line
    More: Hero, Navajo Code Talkers, Navajo, Veterans Day, World War II, Navajo Nation  
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2009 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Nov 2013 at 6:15 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-15 06:17:42 AM  
I liked 'Windtalkers'. There, I said it.

R.I.P. Brave one
 
2013-11-15 06:19:17 AM  
I wonder what kind of code people will be using in the future. Maybe we'll have the 1337 speak code guys in the future who would help us secure and decode important information.
 
2013-11-15 06:22:10 AM  
In memorium

www.lapahie.com
 
2013-11-15 06:26:50 AM  
i39.tinypic.com
 
2013-11-15 06:28:36 AM  
He did that on purpose.

Seriously, rest in peace.
 
2013-11-15 06:32:44 AM  
A lifelong Sioux friend of mine whose wife (Pima) had a relative that was a windtalker.  He passed away years ago and I won't name him out of respect for the families, but god or any deity help us all, they pulled off some massive shiat. Hero tag indeed.
 
2013-11-15 06:36:02 AM  
They fought for a country that impoverished their people and left them twisting in the wind in their old age.
Hooray for collaborators.

There's a Code Talker Museum inside the Burger King in Kayenta, AZ.
 
2013-11-15 06:39:47 AM  
Win?

Nice trolltastic headline.

/american arrogance is BEST arrogance
 
2013-11-15 06:40:15 AM  
Semper Fi Marine.  Hope you're having fun on guard duty.
 
2013-11-15 06:41:42 AM  

GreenSun: I wonder what kind of code people will be using in the future. Maybe we'll have the 1337 speak code guys in the future who would help us secure and decode important information.


Heavy-farking-duty encryption, made possible by advances in computer science.
 
2013-11-15 06:44:50 AM  

uttertosh: /american arrogance is BEST arrogance


Sweetie, it wasn't the British or the Russians that beat the Japanese. I live with my mom.
 
2013-11-15 06:50:04 AM  

hardinparamedic: uttertosh: /american arrogance is BEST arrogance

Sweetie, it wasn't the British or the Russians that beat the Japanese. I live with my mom.


If you want to get really technical, WWII was won with American money and steel, and Russian and Chinese blood.  Take those things out of the equation, and Germany and Japan would have had a field day.
 
2013-11-15 06:54:15 AM  

hardinparamedic: uttertosh: /american arrogance is BEST arrogance

Sweetie, it wasn't the British or the Russians that beat the Japanese. I live with my mom.


Darling, 'beating' the Japanese is not what 'won' WW2. -12/10.
 
2013-11-15 07:02:36 AM  

devildog123: If you want to get really technical, WWII was won with American money and steel, and Russian and Chinese blood. Take those things out of the equation, and Germany and Japan would have had a field day.


If you want to get technical, removing any part of the allied war machine that battled against Germany in WW2, would have probably resulted in a very different looking European map.

Again, I state the absolute FACT: America DID.NOT.WIN the second world war. Get your heads out of your own arseholes, and stop shaking each other's cocks about how awesome y'all are, just for a moment, and you'd see how effing ridiculous saying  "America won WW2" sounds to someone not from there.
 
2013-11-15 07:08:21 AM  
fanbladesaresharp: A lifelong Sioux friend of mine whose wife (Pima) had a relative that was a windtalker.  He passed away years ago and I won't name him out of respect for the families, but god or any deity help us all, they pulled off some massive shiat. Hero tag indeed.

what massive shiat?   i know on the interent "personal stories involving old people beats book learnin", but the historical record that I know seems to suggest that they more or less just did their jobs, mostly in relative safety, as most other servicement of the period did.    and then they made films about them.  as far as i know, none died in combat.

hero tag not indeed unless you can associate this gentleman with particular acts of heroism or if you're just going to go the lazy fark route and stay that any american who either had anything to do with ww2 or wore a uniform ever is a 'hero.'
 
2013-11-15 07:10:04 AM  

uttertosh: If you want to get technical, removing any part of the allied war machine that battled against Germany in WW2, would have probably resulted in a very different looking European map.


So very true.  This includes Alan Turing... and he was a brit.

news.bbcimg.co.uk
 
2013-11-15 07:15:22 AM  
I salute the man for his service.  It's really something to go and fight *FOR* a nation that fought *AGAINST* your grandfathers.

Having said that, more is made of the Navajo code talkers than should be.  Had the Japanese been even barely competent at Signals Intelligence, they would have had that code cracked fairly quickly.

But of course, they had problems with relatively simple and fairly easy to crack ciphers like the Playfair and strip ciphers, so we could have probably used some variant of Pig Latin or Oppish and it still would have worked.
 
2013-11-15 07:17:51 AM  

d23: uttertosh: If you want to get technical, removing any part of the allied war machine that battled against Germany in WW2, would have probably resulted in a very different looking European map.

So very true.  This includes Alan Turing Marian Rejewski... and he was a brit Pole.


FTFY.

Marian Rejewski invented the principles of attacking rotor-based cipher machines out of whole cloth, and used them against the actual Enigma, while Turing was still an undergrad in college.  And the Brits were stuck until the Poles told them how to do it.
 
2013-11-15 07:19:41 AM  

hardinparamedic: uttertosh: /american arrogance is BEST arrogance

Sweetie, it wasn't the British or the Russians that beat the Japanese. I live with my mom.


Someone's knowledge of the Pacific Theatre is not very good. Those 300,000 Japanese troops fighting 100,000 British and Commonwealth forces (plus local fighters) on continental South East Asia made a very big difference to the Pacific Theatre. The island hopping champagne would have been much bloodier and much slower had those troops been available there instead.

/It's not known as the Forgotten War for nothing
//2nd worst front of the war
 
2013-11-15 07:22:31 AM  

d23: So very true. This includes Alan Turing... and he was a brit


Great example. Without that man, all the 'steel and money' thrown on the table by america might not have made a difference. It's actually quite a scary thought, imo.

/ALAN TURING WON THE SECOND WORLD WAR!!!
 
2013-11-15 07:24:29 AM  

Bomb Head Mohammed: fanbladesaresharp: A lifelong Sioux friend of mine whose wife (Pima) had a relative that was a windtalker.  He passed away years ago and I won't name him out of respect for the families, but god or any deity help us all, they pulled off some massive shiat. Hero tag indeed.

what massive shiat?   i know on the interent "personal stories involving old people beats book learnin", but the historical record that I know seems to suggest that they more or less just did their jobs, mostly in relative safety, as most other servicement of the period did.    and then they made films about them.  as far as i know, none died in combat.

hero tag not indeed unless you can associate this gentleman with particular acts of heroism or if you're just going to go the lazy fark route and stay that any american who either had anything to do with ww2 or wore a uniform ever is a 'hero.'


Like I said. I'm not going to identify the guy, even though I know who he is and where he's buried, and his death wasn't pretty. So you can get technical "citation please" all you want. I'll just privately honor the guy instead, and that's what you're just going to have to accept. Understood?
 
2013-11-15 07:26:08 AM  
i.imgur.com


/some serious wankery in here this morning
 
2013-11-15 07:33:44 AM  
uttertosh: Again, I state the absolute FACT: America DID.NOT.WIN the second world war. Get your heads out of your own arseholes, and stop shaking each other's cocks about how awesome y'all are, just for a moment, and you'd see how effing ridiculous saying  "America won WW2" sounds to someone not from there.

Lend-Lease says what?

Without the US, neither the UK nor the Soviet Union had the industrial base necessary for complete victory.   The USSR wouldn't have had enough tanks to beat back the Nazis if it had to manufacture the 400,000 trucks and jeeps the US sent to them.  The UK would have been gradually starved were it not for US assistance and especially the production of cargo and tanker ships to feed and fuel the British Isles.

So yeah, in a very real sense, we won the Second World War.

Think I'm full of it?

In 1942, the first full year the US was involved in the war, US GDP alone accounted for fully 2/3rds of the combined Allied GDP, and the US consistently accounted for over 60% of the combined allied GDP.

In 1942, if you subtract the US GDP, the Allied GDP was 627 billion dollars.  The Axis combined GDP was nearly 50% higher, at 902 billion dollars.

The Allies simply didn't have the economic capability to defeat the Axis without the United States.
 
2013-11-15 07:35:06 AM  
Flags should be at half-staff across the entire nation.

RIP, Warrior
 
2013-11-15 07:46:37 AM  

fanbladesaresharp: Bomb Head Mohammed: fanbladesaresharp: A lifelong Sioux friend of mine whose wife (Pima) had a relative that was a windtalker.  He passed away years ago and I won't name him out of respect for the families, but god or any deity help us all, they pulled off some massive shiat. Hero tag indeed.

what massive shiat?   i know on the interent "personal stories involving old people beats book learnin", but the historical record that I know seems to suggest that they more or less just did their jobs, mostly in relative safety, as most other servicement of the period did.    and then they made films about them.  as far as i know, none died in combat.

hero tag not indeed unless you can associate this gentleman with particular acts of heroism or if you're just going to go the lazy fark route and stay that any american who either had anything to do with ww2 or wore a uniform ever is a 'hero.'

Like I said. I'm not going to identify the guy, even though I know who he is and where he's buried, and his death wasn't pretty. So you can get technical "citation please" all you want. I'll just privately honor the guy instead, and that's what you're just going to have to accept. Understood?


Posting on fark = privately?
 
2013-11-15 07:50:54 AM  

uttertosh: devildog123: If you want to get really technical, WWII was won with American money and steel, and Russian and Chinese blood. Take those things out of the equation, and Germany and Japan would have had a field day.

If you want to get technical, removing any part of the allied war machine that battled against Germany in WW2, would have probably resulted in a very different looking European map.

Again, I state the absolute FACT: America DID.NOT.WIN the second world war. Get your heads out of your own arseholes, and stop shaking each other's cocks about how awesome y'all are, just for a moment, and you'd see how effing ridiculous saying  "America won WW2" sounds to someone not from there.


Yes, but the Western European Allies were the LEAST valuable of all the parts.  And, if you look at what I said, I didn't say "America won WW2".  I said America, Russia, and China won that war.  World War II was essentially two separate wars, being fought at more or less the same time, with some of the major combatants fighting in both.  (i.e. China was a major player in the Pacific War with Russia more or less no factor, while the opposite was true in the European War).  If Hitler hadn't been stupid enough to declare war on the United States in December of 1941, the US still could have fought and won it's war with Japan.  Hell, it probably would have won it faster, not having to waste supplies propping up the USSR and Great Britain.  The Brits most likely would have had to either surrender or agree to an Armistice of some sort in mid 1942, and the Russians most likely would have signed off a year or two later, most likely east of Moscow.  The Russians may have had manpower,  but they were horrifically short of supplies.  Over the course of the war for example, the US provided over 1/3 of all the high explosives the Russians used, along with a big percentage of their motorized transport and rations.

The point made is that without US participation, France had already fallen, England and North Africa would have, and the USSR would probably not have rolled into Berlin, but German tanks might have rolled into Moscow.  Without British participation in the Pacific Theater, that war would still have been won, and again, probably more easily (More American and Australian troops would have been available to fight the Japanese, rather than fighting it out in North Africa for example.)

Long rant short... If the US had chosen to remain neutral, would WWII have been "lost" (either Allied surrender or Armistices in favor of the Axis powers)?  Yes.  If either Great Britain, China, or the USSR had quit the war, would the US have been forced into an unfavorable armistice or surrender?  No.  Therefore, the US "Won".
 
2013-11-15 07:54:24 AM  

dittybopper: So yeah, in a very real sense, we won the Second World War


no. In an absolutely real sense, you did not. NO.

Money and steel alone does not win a war. America helped. A staggeringly large heap of help, but to decide that this meant that America 'won' the second world war? Arrogance. Utterly soul shattering American arrogance.

I weep for your offspring. If they ever make it out of your mindset, they'll be the real [HERO] in this story.
 
2013-11-15 07:55:30 AM  

uttertosh: d23: So very true. This includes Alan Turing... and he was a brit

Great example. Without that man, all the 'steel and money' thrown on the table by america might not have made a difference. It's actually quite a scary thought, imo.

/ALAN TURING WON THE SECOND WORLD WAR!!!


Alan Turing gets more credit than he deserves for WWII service.

The man is a giant in early computer science, but he was just one of several geniuses at Bletchley.

Take, for example, the cryptologic bombe, which, if you read the early declassified stories about Bletchley from the 1970's and 1980's, it would seem to have sprung from the mind of Turing.  But it was actually Rejewski who invented the concept, and had a primitive version called a cyclometer built, years before Turing even knew what a "rotor machine" was.  The British version was merely Turing's improvement on a machine that had been invented years before.

Turing was an immense help at Bletchley, but even then, others made serious contributions.  Gordon Welchman, for example, invented the "diagonal board" which greatly increased the efficiency of Turing's improved version of Rejewski's bombe.
 
2013-11-15 07:56:31 AM  

Norfolking Chance: hardinparamedic: uttertosh: /american arrogance is BEST arrogance

Sweetie, it wasn't the British or the Russians that beat the Japanese. I live with my mom.

Someone's knowledge of the Pacific Theatre is not very good. Those 300,000 Japanese troops fighting 100,000 British and Commonwealth forces (plus local fighters) on continental South East Asia made a very big difference to the Pacific Theatre. The island hopping champagne would have been much bloodier and much slower had those troops been available there instead.

/It's not known as the Forgotten War for nothing
//2nd worst front of the war


Bloodier and slower, but still winnable.  That's the difference.  The British COULD NOT have held on without the massive US support they got.  The US would have been able to defeat Japan without them.  Again, the hundreds of thousands of Japanese troops would have been offset by the 1 million+ US troops that wouldn't have been fighting in Europe.
 
2013-11-15 08:00:56 AM  
Picked up the code talker medals from philly yesterday, taking 'em to the capitol today

gods, I hate going in there
 
2013-11-15 08:02:55 AM  
My ancestry includes the Nation that considers the Navajo their sworn enemies, so I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

That said, RIP Windtalker.
 
2013-11-15 08:05:07 AM  

Bomb Head Mohammed: fanbladesaresharp: A lifelong Sioux friend of mine whose wife (Pima) had a relative that was a windtalker.  He passed away years ago and I won't name him out of respect for the families, but god or any deity help us all, they pulled off some massive shiat. Hero tag indeed.

what massive shiat?   i know on the interent "personal stories involving old people beats book learnin", but the historical record that I know seems to suggest that they more or less just did their jobs, mostly in relative safety, as most other servicement of the period did.    and then they made films about them.  as far as i know, none died in combat.

hero tag not indeed unless you can associate this gentleman with particular acts of heroism or if you're just going to go the lazy fark route and stay that any american who either had anything to do with ww2 or wore a uniform ever is a 'hero.'


Actually, quite a few died, or were wounded, in combat.  The code talkers were more or less human versions of a scrambler device.  They were a layer of encryption on the tactical radios of the day.  They often served with front line units, directing artillery and naval gunfire.  Of the about 300 code talkers, at least 13 were killed, and many more were wounded.  Figure a 3 to 1 wounded to killed ratio, and that's 13 killed, 39 wounded, for a total of about 52 casualities.  Not perfect math mind you, but probably not too far off, 52 out of 300 means you had about a 20% chance of getting killed or wounded as a code talker.  And that 300+ number includes the ones who were assigned to ships/major headquarters.  Assignment to a line company probably brought a better than 50% rate.
 
2013-11-15 08:06:58 AM  
oh, and to make myself clear, I don't say that Britain 'won' the war.

I say that the allied forces won the war.

Saying that America 'won' the war is just patently false.
 
2013-11-15 08:08:29 AM  

uttertosh: America DID.NOT.WIN the second world war.


So we lost?

Correct statement is "America was on the winning side of the WWII". But honestly your arguing grammar at this point.
 
2013-11-15 08:10:31 AM  

uttertosh: oh, and to make myself clear, I don't say that Britain 'won' the war.

I say that the allied forces won the war.

Saying that America 'won' the war is just patently false.


strike that - all parties actively involved in taking down the axis won the war.
 
2013-11-15 08:12:25 AM  

uttertosh: dittybopper: So yeah, in a very real sense, we won the Second World War

no. In an absolutely real sense, you did not. NO.

Money and steel alone does not win a war. America helped. A staggeringly large heap of help, but to decide that this meant that America 'won' the second world war? Arrogance. Utterly soul shattering American arrogance.


It's not arrogance when it's the truth.  Without the contributions of the United States to the Allied war effort, at the very best, the Allies would have had to settle for Europe that would be largely controlled by the Axis.  Maybe not at the borders of their maximum expansion, but certainly beyond their pre-war borders.

And that's not even mentioning how big the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere would have been.
Without the money and steel, you can't fight a war.

Do a little thought experiment.  Imagine the US in 1939 is so disgusted that war has broken out in Europe *YET*AGAIN* that every last person insists the US stay strictly neutral no matter what the provocation.

Think the UK and USSR could have defeated Germany and Italy?

You're a fool if you do.

I weep for your offspring. If they ever make it out of your mindset, they'll be the real [HERO] in this story.

I don't.  They'll get an actual balanced view of history.  Take a look in this very farking thread:  I give the Poles, especially Marian Rejewski, the credit for breaking the Enigma machine, because he did it in 1933, long before the UK even gave it a serious attempt.  Oh, and did you know, that by mid 1943, the responsibility for cracking the 4 rotor naval Enigma started shifting over the the US, because the UK was unable to build a reliable high-speed 4 rotor bombe?   Just one small example of my point.

Without the economic might of the "Arsenal of Democracy*", the Allies would have had to sue for peace in 1944 or 1945, instead of invading the continent and utterly destroying the Nazis.

But like a typical European, you seem to think the World revolves around Europe.  Got news for you: It doesn't, no more than it revolves around the United States.


*Which, btw, I find a hilarious construction because much of that aid went to one of the worst totalitarian dictators the World has ever seen, whose death toll far outweighs even that of Hitler.
 
2013-11-15 08:13:05 AM  

MindStalker: But honestly your arguing grammar at this point.


you need to re-read your grammar book. I'd loan you mine, but it's full of handwritten notes in Swedish.
 
2013-11-15 08:13:16 AM  

uttertosh: devildog123: If you want to get really technical, WWII was won with American money and steel, and Russian and Chinese blood. Take those things out of the equation, and Germany and Japan would have had a field day.

If you want to get technical, removing any part of the allied war machine that battled against Germany in WW2, would have probably resulted in a very different looking European map.

Again, I state the absolute FACT: America DID.NOT.WIN the second world war. Get your heads out of your own arseholes, and stop shaking each other's cocks about how awesome y'all are, just for a moment, and you'd see how effing ridiculous saying  "America won WW2" sounds to someone not from there.




i403.photobucket.com">
 
2013-11-15 08:14:42 AM  
Americans proudly hold the title in baseball for most World Series wins.

/cue theme song for Team America.
 
2013-11-15 08:18:14 AM  

devildog123: Bloodier and slower, but still winnable.  That's the difference.  The British COULD NOT have held on without the massive US support they got.  The US would have been able to defeat Japan without them.  Again, the hundreds of thousands of Japanese troops would have been offset by the 1 million+ US troops that wouldn't have been fighting in Europe.


Not only that, but we utterly pwned the Japanese when it came to signals intelligence.

Some of that was due to complete Japanese incompetence, but another part of it was that we were able to throw massive resources at the problem.
 
2013-11-15 08:19:47 AM  

uttertosh: uttertosh: oh, and to make myself clear, I don't say that Britain 'won' the war.

I say that the allied forces won the war.

Saying that America 'won' the war is just patently false.

strike that - all parties actively involved in taking down the axis won the war.


*THIS* I can agree with.

I just get upset when the American contribution is minimized, when in fact is was absolutely vital.
 
2013-11-15 08:26:40 AM  

uttertosh: MindStalker: But honestly your arguing grammar at this point.

you need to re-read your grammar book. I'd loan you mine, but it's full of handwritten notes in Swedish.


Perhaps we can get Yves Gylden to decrypt them for us.
 
2013-11-15 08:27:01 AM  

dittybopper: I salute the man for his service.  It's really something to go and fight *FOR* a nation that fought *AGAINST* your grandfathers.

Having said that, more is made of the Navajo code talkers than should be.  Had the Japanese been even barely competent at Signals Intelligence, they would have had that code cracked fairly quickly.

But of course, they had problems with relatively simple and fairly easy to crack ciphers like the Playfair and strip ciphers, so we could have probably used some variant of Pig Latin or Oppish and it still would have worked.


A guy I went to high school with was a radio operator during the Grenada operation, and he said that his
unit used Klingon when speaking on unsecured channels.
 
2013-11-15 08:27:49 AM  

dittybopper: It's not arrogance when it's the truth


Correct. Thinking it's the truth is blind arrogance.

Saying the definitive "America won WW2" is rather belittling of the efforts of everyone else involved in that war, no? It often strikes the rest of the world that battled against the axis as quite disrespectful, at best, and horrifyingly arrogant at worst.

It makes it sound as if everyone else's role in the war was meaningless.

dittybopper: I give the Poles, especially Marian Rejewski, the credit for breaking the Enigma machine, because he did it in 1933, long before the UK even gave it a serious attempt. Oh, and did you know, that by mid 1943, the responsibility for cracking the 4 rotor naval Enigma started shifting over the the US, because the UK was unable to build a reliable high-speed 4 rotor bombe? Just one small example of my point.


see.. you say all this, and in the same breath say that america won the war. It's like you can't even hear the "USA! USA! USA!" in you voice.

Again, saying that America won WW2 is just plain WRONG.
 
2013-11-15 08:28:43 AM  

movieman_1979: I liked 'Windtalkers'. There, I said it.

R.I.P. Brave one


Wait, does that mean there is a general consensus going on that you should not like that movie?

/I did too
 
2013-11-15 08:29:06 AM  

uttertosh: Again, saying that America won WW2 is just plain WRONG.


Perhaps you missed this:

dittybopper: uttertosh: uttertosh: oh, and to make myself clear, I don't say that Britain 'won' the war.

I say that the allied forces won the war.

Saying that America 'won' the war is just patently false.

strike that - all parties actively involved in taking down the axis won the war.

*THIS* I can agree with.

I just get upset when the American contribution is minimized, when in fact is was absolutely vital.

 
2013-11-15 08:29:22 AM  

uttertosh: d23: So very true. This includes Alan Turing... and he was a brit

Great example. Without that man, all the 'steel and money' thrown on the table by america might not have made a difference. It's actually quite a scary thought, imo.

/ALAN TURING WON THE SECOND WORLD WAR!!!


As a proud American, I have no problem with that statement.

He sure as hell helped shorten it, and that saved many lives on all sides.
 
2013-11-15 08:32:33 AM  

mayIFark: movieman_1979: I liked 'Windtalkers'. There, I said it.

R.I.P. Brave one

Wait, does that mean there is a general consensus going on that you should not like that movie?

/I did too


I didn't really care for it.  And being the crypto-nerd and SIGINT weenie that I am, I'm kind of the target audience for that sort of film.
 
2013-11-15 08:33:57 AM  

DjangoStonereaver: uttertosh: d23: So very true. This includes Alan Turing... and he was a brit

Great example. Without that man, all the 'steel and money' thrown on the table by america might not have made a difference. It's actually quite a scary thought, imo.

/ALAN TURING WON THE SECOND WORLD WAR!!!

As a proud American, I have no problem with that statement.

He sure as hell helped shorten it, and that saved many lives on all sides.


It's an incorrect statement.  If you are going to peg it to a single person, Marian Rejewski won the Second World War, before it even started.
 
2013-11-15 08:34:26 AM  

dittybopper: uttertosh: uttertosh: oh, and to make myself clear, I don't say that Britain 'won' the war.

I say that the allied forces won the war.

Saying that America 'won' the war is just patently false.

strike that - all parties actively involved in taking down the axis won the war.

*THIS* I can agree with.

I just get upset when the American contribution is minimized, when in fact is was absolutely vital.


ok, sorry - I genuinely wasn't trying to minimize America's contribution. It was 100% vital.

I just get my back up when Americans state that they won the war with one arm behind their back, whilst everyone else hid in a corner, brushing up on their German grammar.
 
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