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(Trust.org)   New DNA tests reveal dogs were first domesticated, wanted steak, in Europe 30,000 years ago   (trust.org) divider line 39
    More: Interesting, dogs, DNA, Europe, DNA testing, mitochondrial DNA, domestication, Orion, human society  
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1063 clicks; posted to Geek » on 14 Nov 2013 at 5:21 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-14 04:03:17 PM  
Again with the "dangerous wolf" meme. Jeez.
 
2013-11-14 04:42:27 PM  
Wait, dogs were domesticated in the Americas as well, not quite THAT long ago but way before the Columbian exchange.  Are they the same species that just happened to migrate over along with humans?
 
2013-11-14 04:52:19 PM  
Isn't the earth only 6,000 years old?
 
2013-11-14 05:33:06 PM  

nekom: Wait, dogs were domesticated in the Americas as well, not quite THAT long ago but way before the Columbian exchange.  Are they the same species that just happened to migrate over along with humans?


Yes. They are the same species, but always remember that they redo the domestication of dogs every couple years.

However, I'd pitch the notion that there were, at some stage previous to domestication, a lot more dog-like wolves than there are today.
 
2013-11-14 05:33:15 PM  

Mugato: Isn't the earth only 6,000 years old?


Dammit Mugato, we just had that thread yesterday.
 
2013-11-14 05:45:20 PM  
Saw something about the Soviets experimenting with foxes. They bred the most passive of each generation, and had "dogs" after 15 or so generations. Much quicker than I would've thought.

The most interesting part was that different colorations were starting to show through at that point, while the aggressive foxes stayed the typical fox colors.
 
2013-11-14 05:48:15 PM  

Doc Batarang: nekom: Wait, dogs were domesticated in the Americas as well, not quite THAT long ago but way before the Columbian exchange.  Are they the same species that just happened to migrate over along with humans?

Yes. They are the same species, but always remember that they redo the domestication of dogs every couple years.

However, I'd pitch the notion that there were, at some stage previous to domestication, a lot more dog-like wolves than there are today.


Also, doesn't human history in the Americas only go back 8-10k years? They could've brought domesticated dogs with them over the Bering land bridge.
 
2013-11-14 05:49:38 PM  

GRCooper: Doc Batarang: nekom: Wait, dogs were domesticated in the Americas as well, not quite THAT long ago but way before the Columbian exchange.  Are they the same species that just happened to migrate over along with humans?

Yes. They are the same species, but always remember that they redo the domestication of dogs every couple years.

However, I'd pitch the notion that there were, at some stage previous to domestication, a lot more dog-like wolves than there are today.

Also, doesn't human history in the Americas only go back 8-10k years? They could've brought domesticated dogs with them over the Bering land bridge.


Nevermind, just reread and saw y'all were saying that
 
2013-11-14 05:55:47 PM  

GRCooper: Doc Batarang: nekom: Wait, dogs were domesticated in the Americas as well, not quite THAT long ago but way before the Columbian exchange.  Are they the same species that just happened to migrate over along with humans?

Yes. They are the same species, but always remember that they redo the domestication of dogs every couple years.

However, I'd pitch the notion that there were, at some stage previous to domestication, a lot more dog-like wolves than there are today.

Also, doesn't human history in the Americas only go back 8-10k years? They could've brought domesticated dogs with them over the Bering land bridge.


No, actually there is some evidence that people had been as far as South America by 40,000 years ago. Mainly this is evidence for a multi-wave peopling of the New World than a single wave, a later group could have introduced the dog across the Americas long after the first Americans had arrived.
 
2013-11-14 06:01:41 PM  
See you raw food, "Let them eat like they do in the wild" idiots! Dogs haven't been wild for a very, very long time. So quit denying your dog proper nutrition with your stupid, new-age, hipster dog diets.
 
2013-11-14 06:02:10 PM  
Doc Batarang:
Yes. They are the same species, but always remember that they redo the domestication of dogs every couple years.

However, I'd pitch the notion that there were, at some stage previous to domestication, a lot more dog-like wolves than there are today.


There had to have been some genetic drift.  I wonder if you can still find a dog breed that is PURE European or American?  I'd guess no, with all the breeding since the exchange, I'd guess it's all muddled now, like most everything else.
 
2013-11-14 06:04:44 PM  
Add on: I also apologize for going for the hype in that last post. The strongest evidence suggests the first people in the Americas is at the most 18kya.
 
2013-11-14 06:06:07 PM  
See you raw food, "Let them eat like they do in the wild" idiots! Dogs haven't been wild for a very, very long time. So quit denying your dog proper nutrition with your stupid, new-age, hipster dog diets.

i only feed my dog wild-caught arugula and endive with a basil vinagraitte
 
2013-11-14 06:09:41 PM  

E_Henry_Thripshaws_Disease: wild-caught arugula


Do you have to catch arugula?
 
2013-11-14 06:17:03 PM  

Doc Batarang: Add on: I also apologize for going for the hype in that last post. The strongest evidence suggests the first people in the Americas is at the most 18kya.


Bullcrap.

See Ollantaytambo and Puma Punko.
 
2013-11-14 06:31:07 PM  

Clash City Farker: Doc Batarang: Add on: I also apologize for going for the hype in that last post. The strongest evidence suggests the first people in the Americas is at the most 18kya.

Bullcrap.

See Ollantaytambo and Puma Punko.


Why do a 500 year old and a 1500 year old site make 18,0000 years "bullcrap"?
 
2013-11-14 06:51:05 PM  

Clash City Farker: Doc Batarang: Add on: I also apologize for going for the hype in that last post. The strongest evidence suggests the first people in the Americas is at the most 18kya.

Bullcrap.

See Ollantaytambo and Puma Punko.


Neither of which are older that 18,000 years. The earliest archaeological evidence for human settlement around Pumapunco is 400 BC, and both of the aforementioned temple complexes were completed well into the first millennium.

The site of Monte Verde in Chile might demonstrate much older dates, but these findings are debatable because of the huge range of the radiocarbon dates found there. The oldest one when I was in school was 40kya, but many of them are safely within a supportable 13kya.
 
2013-11-14 06:51:33 PM  

GRCooper: Saw something about the Soviets experimenting with foxes. They bred the most passive of each generation, and had "dogs" after 15 or so generations. Much quicker than I would've thought.

The most interesting part was that different colorations were starting to show through at that point, while the aggressive foxes stayed the typical fox colors.


Lots of youtube videos out there with the Russian domesticated foxes.  They're adorable.
 
2013-11-14 07:01:17 PM  

GRCooper: Clash City Farker: Doc Batarang: Add on: I also apologize for going for the hype in that last post. The strongest evidence suggests the first people in the Americas is at the most 18kya.

Bullcrap.

See Ollantaytambo and Puma Punko.

Why do a 500 year old and a 1500 year old site make 18,0000 years "bullcrap"?


Aliens. Seriously. Looking up Ollantaytambo for myself (because I'd never heard of it), it's half sane archaeology and half "aliens did it" whaargarbl. I've noticed over the years that, for whatever reason, alien astronaut people don't even respect dating techniques either. IF aliens did it, why didn't they just do it during the timeframe the archaeology supports? They say the same things about the pyramids and their favourite piece of statuary, the sphinx.
 
2013-11-14 07:25:18 PM  

Mugato: Isn't the earth only 6,000 years old?


Yes.

Little known fact, when God said "Let there be light!", he only wanted to turn on the lights to see what the hell the dogs were barking at all him damn night.
 
2013-11-14 07:51:18 PM  
The linked article suxs.

Much better:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24946944
DNA hint of European origin for dogs
...
This analysis reveals modern dogs to be most closely related to ancient European wolves or dogs - not to any of the wolf groups from outside Europe, nor even to modern European wolves (suggesting the link is with old European wolves that are now extinct).

Science paper abstract:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/342/6160/871
Complete Mitochondrial Genomes of Ancient Canids Suggest a European Origin of Domestic Dogs
The geographic and temporal origins of the domestic dog remain controversial, as genetic data suggest a domestication process in East Asia beginning 15,000 years ago, whereas the oldest doglike fossils are found in Europe and Siberia and date to >30,000 years ago. We analyzed the mitochondrial genomes of 18 prehistoric canids from Eurasia and the New World, along with a comprehensive panel of modern dogs and wolves. The mitochondrial genomes of all modern dogs are phylogenetically most closely related to either ancient or modern canids of Europe. Molecular dating suggests an onset of domestication there 18,800 to 32,100 years ago. These findings imply that domestic dogs are the culmination of a process that initiated with European hunter-gatherers and the canids with whom they interacted.

Note that this is based on mitochondria. All this really claims is that dogs' moms were European.
 
2013-11-14 07:56:52 PM  
Dog arrived on the planet shortly after we did. Originally their technology far outstripped out own (we were marooned here when our master's ship crashed. We were a simian slave race.) Dogs slowly lost their superior intelligence and became a pampered yet enslaved species. We assimilated their tech and became the psychotic apes we are today.
 
2013-11-14 08:03:11 PM  

HairBolus: Note that this is based on mitochondria. All this really claims is that dogs' moms were European.


Ha! Good guess for me on a likely scientific response. I now see that the following News & Analysis at Science is not paywalled and it is worth a read.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/342/6160/785.full
Old Dogs Teach a New Lesson About Canine Origins
...
Furthermore, mtDNA, which is passed down from mother to daughter, "reflects a small part of the evolutionary history," says Chung-I Wu, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Chicago in Illinois. Given how much human migration there was early in dog domestication, Wu suspects that male dogs coming from outside Europe might have been bred with European dams, leading to the mitochondrial story Wayne and Thalmann propose, but not the correct overall picture of dog domestication. "Two parts of the genome can tell two different stories."
 
2013-11-14 08:06:13 PM  
The dogs domesticated us. dun dun dunnnn
 
2013-11-14 08:21:11 PM  

Mugato: Isn't the earth only 6,000 years old?


God created dogs with 24,000 years of domestication built in, so that man would have a best friend from the start without having to grind through the tutorial levels.
 
2013-11-14 08:31:56 PM  
HairBolus

...male dogs coming from outside Europe might have been bred with European dams...

This weirdly (or not?) parallels human genetics in Europe. Most of the y-DNA lines (R1) come from the east, but the mtDNA lines are older and had been there for thousands of years prior.
 
2013-11-14 08:56:26 PM  

Prophet of Loss: Dog arrived on the planet shortly after we did. Originally their technology far outstripped out own (we were marooned here when our master's ship crashed. We were a simian slave race.) Dogs slowly lost their superior intelligence and became a pampered yet enslaved species. We assimilated their tech and became the psychotic apes we are today.


I NEED to get a hold of your newsletter.
 
2013-11-14 09:01:03 PM  
Yeah, we already knew this.

The dog was domesticated during the last ice age by a blonde chick who also domesticated the horse, and invented the travois and the atlatl.

She also figured out where babies came from.
 
2013-11-14 09:41:58 PM  

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: The dog was domesticated during the last ice age by a blonde chick who also domesticated the horse, and invented the travois and the atlatl.


Really, Ayla did just about everything up to and including inventing the Internet in those books.
 
2013-11-14 10:03:28 PM  

Facetious_Speciest: HairBolus

...male dogs coming from outside Europe might have been bred with European dams...

This weirdly (or not?) parallels human genetics in Europe. Most of the y-DNA lines (R1) come from the east, but the mtDNA lines are older and had been there for thousands of years prior.


Chung-I Wu, who said that, seems to be a China origin advocate:
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n5/abs/ncomms2814.html?WT.ec _i d=NCOMMS-20130514
I think it would be difficult for hunter gatherers to migrate to Europe from China with their dogs and have their dogs leave a genetic trace but not the humans.

Then again from the Science Blurb:
"The researchers were unable to get suitable DNA from ancient Middle Eastern canids and had no access to ancient specimens from East Asia."

If some ancient wolf species had a homogenous presence across Eurasia then the paper says nothing about the location of domestication.
 
2013-11-14 10:15:53 PM  
HairBolus

I think it would be difficult for hunter gatherers to migrate to Europe from China with their dogs and have their dogs leave a genetic trace but not the humans.

Hrm. It seems to me that a more likely scenario (assuming Chinese domestication at some point) might be the spread of the canines west to central Eurasia, where the people then took them with when heading west into Europe, where for whatever reason (much like in humans) the male lines mixed with older female lineages already in situ.
 
2013-11-14 10:21:56 PM  

GRCooper: Saw something about the Soviets experimenting with foxes. They bred the most passive of each generation, and had "dogs" after 15 or so generations. Much quicker than I would've thought.

The most interesting part was that different colorations were starting to show through at that point, while the aggressive foxes stayed the typical fox colors.


Four to six generations for dog behavior. Another two for phsyiological changes similar to those in dogs vs wolves.

It is a fascinating study in how domestication works. I ever win the lotto I want to repeat it with non-canids and see how quickly that works.

/yes, otters.
//my desire to have a pet otter is making me slihtly biased.
///preempting, one population of sea otters in an area where there is a sudden sharp rise in female sea otter deaths leading to a huge population imbalance, not all otters.
 
2013-11-14 10:54:57 PM  

GRCooper: Saw something about the Soviets experimenting with foxes. They bred the most passive of each generation, and had "dogs" after 15 or so generations. Much quicker than I would've thought.

The most interesting part was that different colorations were starting to show through at that point, while the aggressive foxes stayed the typical fox colors.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/dogs-decoded.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAnVS27WODg

"Dogs Decoded" references a Silver Fox breeding program that began in 1959. Foxes that displayed neither aggressive or fearful reactions to humans were bred. The elimination process continuing for each successive generation. By the 8th generation, fox cubs would seek out human contact and affection. Moreover, physical changes were apparent; shorter limbs, floppy ears, curly tails. The tame silver foxes were starting to look like dogs.
 
2013-11-14 10:59:42 PM  

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Yeah, we already knew this.

The dog was domesticated during the last ice age by a blonde chick who also domesticated the horse, and invented the travois and the atlatl.

She also figured out where babies came from.


Whatever happened to Daryl Hannah?

And who names their daughter Daryl?
 
2013-11-14 11:08:45 PM  

Funbags: GRCooper: Saw something about the Soviets experimenting with foxes. They bred the most passive of each generation, and had "dogs" after 15 or so generations. Much quicker than I would've thought.

The most interesting part was that different colorations were starting to show through at that point, while the aggressive foxes stayed the typical fox colors.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/dogs-decoded.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAnVS27WODg

"Dogs Decoded" references a Silver Fox breeding program that began in 1959. Foxes that displayed neither aggressive or fearful reactions to humans were bred. The elimination process continuing for each successive generation. By the 8th generation, fox cubs would seek out human contact and affection. Moreover, physical changes were apparent; shorter limbs, floppy ears, curly tails. The tame silver foxes were starting to look like dogs.


All I know is some scientists missed out on a great marketing deal.
 
2013-11-15 12:55:46 AM  

E_Henry_Thripshaws_Disease: See you raw food, "Let them eat like they do in the wild" idiots! Dogs haven't been wild for a very, very long time. So quit denying your dog proper nutrition with your stupid, new-age, hipster dog diets.

i only feed my dog wild-caught arugula and endive with a basil vinagraitte


Our family's dog eats cat poop.
 
2013-11-15 04:34:47 AM  
When I picked up my dog from the shelter I made a point of building a campfire in the backyard and feeding her while sitting out there. That was my "welcome" ceremony. Not very formal but I knew it had HISTORY.
 
2013-11-15 05:36:20 AM  
Did anyone here ever read a book about mankind having left earth and the dogs left behind create a sort of mythology about humans, whether they were real or not?

I heard it discussed briefly somewhere. Maybe I dreamed it. Does anyone have a title?
 
2013-11-15 09:58:17 PM  

August11: Did anyone here ever read a book about mankind having left earth and the dogs left behind create a sort of mythology about humans, whether they were real or not?

I heard it discussed briefly somewhere. Maybe I dreamed it. Does anyone have a title?


Could it be City?

/Haven't read it
 
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