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(Huffington Post)   Feds decide to try that whole "3D printing a gun" to see if it's really dangerous. Result: Yep, it's dangerous alright, just not they way they expected   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 145
    More: Scary, 3D printers, presidential inauguration, Capitol Hill in Washington, Liberator, metal detectors, x-ray machines, U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, U.S. Capitol  
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14748 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Nov 2013 at 9:13 AM (44 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-14 08:23:59 AM
I'm no expert, but wouldn't the bullet be enough to trigger a metal detector?  Every time I go to the courthouse, I have to go so far as to take gum out of my pocket because the foil sets them off.
 
2013-11-14 08:32:01 AM
FTFA:
Testing found that the type of material used in the 3D printing was critical to whether the weapon would function properly. The ATF produced several versions of the weapon, some using plastic produced by the company Visijet and others using acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS) plastic material. The Visijet version actually exploded during the test, as seen in the video above.

Meh.  I'm betting they were just replicating the testing that DefenseDistributed already did.

Mainly, though, the release seems to be a scare tactic in order to force Congress to reauthorize, and perhaps expand a bit, the prohibition on "undetectable guns".

Even if they do reauthorize it, though, it probably won't matter:  You could still legally make an undetectable gun, so long as you make it a muzzleloader.  All the laws that apply to "modern" guns don't apply to muzzleloaders*, and since the The Liberator is a single shot only, making it into a muzzleloader isn't a real handicap.

Hell, you could make a muzzleloading 3D printed pepperbox-style revolver, and have multiple shots instead of just single ones, and it still wouldn't fall in the definition of a gun.  And with the nearly universal availability of things like Pyrodex and TripleSeven pellets that can be simply glued to the base of a bullet, you've got homemade caseless ammunition.

*So, for example, you can have a smooth-bore pistol, or a short-barreled shotgun, and as long as you load it from the muzzle, you're legal without any NFA paperwork.
 
2013-11-14 08:34:33 AM
dittybopper:
Even if they do reauthorize it, though, it probably won't matter:  You could still legally make an undetectable gun, so long as you make it a muzzleloader.  All the laws that apply to "modern" guns don't apply to muzzleloaders*, and since the The Liberator is a single shot only, making it into a muzzleloader isn't a real handicap.

That's assuming law-abiding people would even want this.  Nothing is going to stop a criminal from 3D printing an illegal firearm.  Don't get me wrong, this whole 3D printed gun thing is worth keeping an eye on, but any serious nutjob hell bent on shooting up the place will just acquire a conventional firearm, it's remarkably easy in this country.
 
2013-11-14 08:39:29 AM

nekom: I'm no expert, but wouldn't the bullet be enough to trigger a metal detector?  Every time I go to the courthouse, I have to go so far as to take gum out of my pocket because the foil sets them off.


Technically, there is no real reason why you have to make the bullets out of metal.  If you wanted to make a muzzleloading version that was almost completely undetectable, you could make one where just the nipple and percussion cap were metal, and that's a very small amount of metal, much smaller than a loaded pistol cartridge.  If you were really clever, you could probably make a non-metallic percussion cap, and find a way to make a non-metallic nipple for it.   Maybe ceramic would work for the nipple.

As to the bullet itself, for short range assassination type stuff, a plastic or ceramic bullet would work, and not be detectable.  Hell, even a marble would probably work fine:  Just put a couple of felt wads between the powder and the marble, and a wad in front to keep it from falling out.  At contact ranges, even blanks can be lethal.
 
2013-11-14 08:47:22 AM
dittybopper:
As to the bullet itself, for short range assassination type stuff, a plastic or ceramic bullet would work, and not be detectable.  Hell, even a marble would probably work fine:  Just put a couple of felt wads between the powder and the marble, and a wad in front to keep it from falling out.  At contact ranges, even blanks can be lethal.

I suppose, but if you're going to go through that much trouble, you might as well just assassinate your target with a rube-goldberg mechanism.
 
2013-11-14 08:48:17 AM

nekom: dittybopper:
Even if they do reauthorize it, though, it probably won't matter:  You could still legally make an undetectable gun, so long as you make it a muzzleloader.  All the laws that apply to "modern" guns don't apply to muzzleloaders*, and since the The Liberator is a single shot only, making it into a muzzleloader isn't a real handicap.

That's assuming law-abiding people would even want this.  Nothing is going to stop a criminal from 3D printing an illegal firearm.  Don't get me wrong, this whole 3D printed gun thing is worth keeping an eye on, but any serious nutjob hell bent on shooting up the place will just acquire a conventional firearm, it's remarkably easy in this country.


But this isn't about something like that.

This sort of firearm, at least for the foreseeable future, is about sneaking a gun into a place where you aren't allowed to have weapons and using it to kill someone.

I mean, you can improvise a more effective (and probably safer) gun from the stuff you can buy at Home Depot in much less time than it takes to print out something like this, which is apparently 18 hours.
 
2013-11-14 08:50:40 AM

nekom: dittybopper:
As to the bullet itself, for short range assassination type stuff, a plastic or ceramic bullet would work, and not be detectable.  Hell, even a marble would probably work fine:  Just put a couple of felt wads between the powder and the marble, and a wad in front to keep it from falling out.  At contact ranges, even blanks can be lethal.

I suppose, but if you're going to go through that much trouble, you might as well just assassinate your target with a rube-goldberg mechanism.


That's actually not really all that much trouble.  Assuming, of course, you got through the trouble of printing something like that.

Of course, you could just print a big-ass dagger or something like that also.  Or just file one out of plastic stock.
 
2013-11-14 08:54:10 AM
It's the way I expected.
 
2013-11-14 08:55:27 AM
dittybopper:   At contact ranges, even blanks can be lethal.

Look up Jon-Erik Hexum - the star of that old 80s TV show Voyagers.

And with respect to Pyrodex, judging from piles of stuff the confiscate at airport, they apparently look out for it.  I don't know if they look for the boxes, pellets, or if the explosive detectors are finding it.
 
2013-11-14 09:11:35 AM

nekom: dittybopper:
As to the bullet itself, for short range assassination type stuff, a plastic or ceramic bullet would work, and not be detectable.  Hell, even a marble would probably work fine:  Just put a couple of felt wads between the powder and the marble, and a wad in front to keep it from falling out.  At contact ranges, even blanks can be lethal.

I suppose, but if you're going to go through that much trouble, you might as well just assassinate your target with a rube-goldberg mechanism.


"So, he was killed by an orange?"

"No.  The orange was thrown at this lever here.  The lever released a series of marbles which wound through these tracks.  The marbles then ended up collecting in this bucket."

"HE WAS KILLED BY A BUCKET?"

"No sir.  The bucket was attached to a string.  As the bucket got heavier the string pulled on the wedge holding back the spring that started the dominoes.   These dominoes went down the stairs, out the door, across the street and in a clever design jumped up the neighbor's stairs until they hit a spring loaded mechanism which started the bowling ball rolling.  The bowling ball rolled out the window, falling 12 feet into a man made pond.  The ripples from the pond soaked the toilet paper used as a rope holding back the bow string.  The wet TP broke, releasing the arrow back into the home."

"He wasn't killed by an arrow.  This is lousy police work."

"No, he wasn't.  The arrow hit the toaster, which fell into the sink.  At the time of the incident, he was washing dishes in the sink.  He was electrocuted."

"So, accidental death?"

"Yep."
 
2013-11-14 09:13:51 AM

UberDave: dittybopper:   At contact ranges, even blanks can be lethal.

Look up Jon-Erik Hexum - the star of that old 80s TV show Voyagers.

And with respect to Pyrodex, judging from piles of stuff the confiscate at airport, they apparently look out for it.  I don't know if they look for the boxes, pellets, or if the explosive detectors are finding it.


If you are worried about the explosives detectors, you could simply wrap the pellets up in plastic, stick them up your ass, take a good shower, then go to the airport.   Once you are through security, you can enter a bathroom and retrieve the pellets.

My father flies about once a year or so to visit my brother.  His house is full of guns, and full of black powder, Pyrodex, TripleSeven, etc.  He shoots regularly, nearly every day, and he's also always cleaning the guns (because muzzleloaders require it).  I take him to the airport every time he flies, and I've never seen him get pulled aside after going through the "puffer".   If they were that sensitive, I'd imagine they'd 'lert on him every time.
 
2013-11-14 09:14:20 AM
Do they 3D print them loaded?
 
2013-11-14 09:17:49 AM
How much is a refill cartridge for a 3D printer, like $5,000?
 
2013-11-14 09:19:55 AM

nekom: dittybopper:
As to the bullet itself, for short range assassination type stuff, a plastic or ceramic bullet would work, and not be detectable.  Hell, even a marble would probably work fine:  Just put a couple of felt wads between the powder and the marble, and a wad in front to keep it from falling out.  At contact ranges, even blanks can be lethal.

I suppose, but if you're going to go through that much trouble, you might as well just assassinate your target with a rube-goldberg mechanism.


I figure go old school cold war style and use ricin
 
2013-11-14 09:20:06 AM
This is a crazy scenerio to think about.  With one high end 3D printer, you could make hundreds of untraceable firearms.  Great thing to have for the mafia, drug lords, or gangs.
 
2013-11-14 09:20:30 AM
How is this any different than that ceramic Glock 7


/ducks and covers
 
2013-11-14 09:21:48 AM

ChrisDe: How much is a refill cartridge for a 3D printer, like $5,000?


The off market Chinese ones are about 13 bucks per kilo. Same amount in our Dimension printer in proprietary cartridges are about $260.
 
2013-11-14 09:24:13 AM
Self correcting problem
 
2013-11-14 09:24:53 AM

nekom: I'm no expert, but wouldn't the bullet be enough to trigger a metal detector?  Every time I go to the courthouse, I have to go so far as to take gum out of my pocket because the foil sets them off.


Hey!
 
2013-11-14 09:25:29 AM

dittybopper: UberDave: dittybopper:   At contact ranges, even blanks can be lethal.

Look up Jon-Erik Hexum - the star of that old 80s TV show Voyagers.

And with respect to Pyrodex, judging from piles of stuff the confiscate at airport, they apparently look out for it.  I don't know if they look for the boxes, pellets, or if the explosive detectors are finding it.

If you are worried about the explosives detectors, you could simply wrap the pellets up in plastic, stick them up your ass, take a good shower, then go to the airport.   Once you are through security, you can enter a bathroom and retrieve the pellets.

My father flies about once a year or so to visit my brother.  His house is full of guns, and full of black powder, Pyrodex, TripleSeven, etc.  He shoots regularly, nearly every day, and he's also always cleaning the guns (because muzzleloaders require it).  I take him to the airport every time he flies, and I've never seen him get pulled aside after going through the "puffer".   If they were that sensitive, I'd imagine they'd 'lert on him every time.


My brother in law got detained at the airport for additional scrutiny after *touching the grip* of my 9mm Glock. He didn't even pick it up, much less fire it. So YMMV, I guess.
 
2013-11-14 09:26:09 AM

dittybopper: UberDave: dittybopper:   At contact ranges, even blanks can be lethal.

Look up Jon-Erik Hexum - the star of that old 80s TV show Voyagers.

And with respect to Pyrodex, judging from piles of stuff the confiscate at airport, they apparently look out for it.  I don't know if they look for the boxes, pellets, or if the explosive detectors are finding it.

If you are worried about the explosives detectors, you could simply wrap the pellets up in plastic, stick them up your ass, take a good shower, then go to the airport.   Once you are through security, you can enter a bathroom and retrieve the pellets.

My father flies about once a year or so to visit my brother.  His house is full of guns, and full of black powder, Pyrodex, TripleSeven, etc.



Not storing according to regs eh?  (he's not the only one...crazy requirement)

I don't doubt someone could could smuggle pyrodex in their ass successfully.  I've been through explosive detectors in highly sensitive areas and had them go off on me (without me having anything in my ass).  But I've never looked into their sensitivity and if they would alert on low-explosive and/or bp substitutes.  As far as the TSA goes, I worry more about when they send my checked bags through the detectors (physical swipe) and pick up something off a piece of clothing I went shooting in - and the worry isn't that they will lock me up, rather, it's that I will miss the damn flight as they pick through my luggage.
 
2013-11-14 09:26:43 AM

JusticeandIndependence: This is a crazy scenerio to think about.  With one high end 3D printer, you could make hundreds of untraceable firearms.  Great thing to have for the mafia, drug lords, or gangs.


What's the big deal?  The guns they have now aren't traceable either, and even under the strictest of gun control regimes, like those in Europe (and especially the UK), the guns that are owned and used by criminal organizations can't really be tied to them except for the fact of their possession.

I fail to see how this would really help them in any significant way.

I'd be more worried about revolutionaries using them for political assassinations than criminal organizations distributing them to their rank-and-file.
 
2013-11-14 09:27:38 AM
3D PRINTING
lh5.googleusercontent.com

WIN
 
2013-11-14 09:27:48 AM
The Glock is a plastic gun and it is more reliable than some homemade gun made out of epoxy filament.
 
2013-11-14 09:27:55 AM
I wonder if this is real or just some kind of propaganda video to keep people from "messing around with a 3-d printed gun". There's an obvious threat to very wealthy and political figures from these guns so I can see why people with actual power are a little twitchy about them. Suddenly they will have to face the same dangers that normal people do.
 
2013-11-14 09:27:55 AM

nekom: I'm no expert, but wouldn't the bullet be enough to trigger a metal detector?  Every time I go to the courthouse, I have to go so far as to take gum out of my pocket because the foil sets them off.


That may be so, but that's no reason we shouldn't all have daily proctoscopes performed by TSA VIPR teams to be allowed to leave the house.
 
2013-11-14 09:28:03 AM
FTA: are more worried about people using 3D weapons to evade typical detection and get into areas where weapons would normally be banned.

I feel like it would be easier to evade typical detection techniques using 2D weapons.

/Am also concerned with 4D weapons that travel back in time and murder peoples mothers.
 
2013-11-14 09:29:34 AM
Based on it's potential components, this thread has a potential to achieve maximum stupid.
This could be one of the superstars.
 
2013-11-14 09:29:35 AM
dittybopper:
But this isn't about something like that.

This sort of firearm, at least for the foreseeable future, is about sneaking a gun into a place where you aren't allowed to have weapons and using it to kill someone.

I mean, you can improvise a more effective (and probably safer) gun from the stuff you can buy at Home Depot in much less time than it takes to print out something like this, which is apparently 18 hours.


People have been making one-shot zip guns since firearms were invented and they've been making them out of all kinds of materials, including ones that can pass through metal detectors.  "3D printing" a firearm changes nothing, but the media has a great time using the concept to whip the fearful and credulous into a panicked, anti-gun frenzy.  The amount of self-flagellation that the anti-gun folks are doing over this non-story is mind boggling.
 
2013-11-14 09:29:48 AM

JusticeandIndependence: This is a crazy scenerio to think about.  With one high end 3D printer, you could make hundreds of untraceable firearms.  Great thing to have for the mafia, drug lords, or gangs.


Or with a machinist and a machine shop, turn out the same number of receivers...then buy the rest of the gun without a massive paper trail.  Cheaper, more reliable, safer.

I have no doubt that 3D printing will make personal firearm manufacturing widely available, but what can be done now with the plastic printers isn't very durable, and requires redesign of firearms into bulky, awkward things.
 
2013-11-14 09:29:57 AM
So they're worried it can be used by an assasin.

So there's a single shot gun that's not a rifle, and it's barel isn't going to be threaded well enough to make it accurate. So to use it effectively you have to be at close range. Making it less effective then a sharpened tooth brush, which can be used multiple times.
 
2013-11-14 09:30:40 AM
It's not rocket science.
It's polymer science.
Shape memory, resonance.
 
2013-11-14 09:30:45 AM

nekom: I'm no expert, but wouldn't the bullet be enough to trigger a metal detector?  Every time I go to the courthouse, I have to go so far as to take gum out of my pocket because the foil sets them off.


Generally you'd put the bullet in something that won't get metal-detected, like in a metal fob on a key-ring or a steel pen or something.  Since you put those small items aside before going through the detector, you jsut have to load it later.

In theory.  Obviously, in practice, the Liberator... is not really a good idea at all, it's at least as dangerous to you as to your target if not more.
 
2013-11-14 09:31:47 AM

Headso: I wonder if this is real or just some kind of propaganda video to keep people from "messing around with a 3-d printed gun". There's an obvious threat to very wealthy and political figures from these guns so I can see why people with actual power are a little twitchy about them. Suddenly they will have to face the same dangers that normal people do.


If it was a propaganda video like you say, why would they also include the information about the other type of plastic they tested that resulted in a working 3D printed gun? Wouldn't they only mention the variant that blew up?
 
2013-11-14 09:31:55 AM
Yeah; they are soo dangerous! Soon, everyone will have their $10,000 3d printer.

/ this entire thing is smoke and mirrors; the tech to make this viable for more than 10 shots just doesn't exist
 
2013-11-14 09:34:06 AM

stevarooni: JusticeandIndependence: This is a crazy scenerio to think about.  With one high end 3D printer, you could make hundreds of untraceable firearms.  Great thing to have for the mafia, drug lords, or gangs.

Or with a machinist and a machine shop, turn out the same number of receivers...then buy the rest of the gun without a massive paper trail.  Cheaper, more reliable, safer.

I have no doubt that 3D printing will make personal firearm manufacturing widely available, but what can be done now with the plastic printers isn't very durable, and requires redesign of firearms into bulky, awkward things.


I didn't read the article, but I did see a report a few days ago where a metal 3D printer is not functional.  Not just plastic.

I think it was the metal part that had people nervous..
 
2013-11-14 09:34:41 AM
JusticeandIndependence: stevarooni: JusticeandIndependence: This is a crazy scenerio to think about.  With one high end 3D printer, you could make hundreds of untraceable firearms.  Great thing to have for the mafia, drug lords, or gangs.

Or with a machinist and a machine shop, turn out the same number of receivers...then buy the rest of the gun without a massive paper trail.  Cheaper, more reliable, safer.

I have no doubt that 3D printing will make personal firearm manufacturing widely available, but what can be done now with the plastic printers isn't very durable, and requires redesign of firearms into bulky, awkward things.

I didn't read the article, but I did see a report a few days ago where a metal 3D printer is not NOW functional.  Not just plastic.

I think it was the metal part that had people nervous..

Corrected myself
 
2013-11-14 09:34:55 AM
What is the point of a 3D printed gun, really, other than just to do it because it can be done?  The time and cost far outweigh obtaining a professionally made firearm, and if you're determined enough to kill someone who is being protected by metal detectors, etc., then there are lot more effective and efficient ways to go about it.  Until the costs of printing with metal come down to make it accessible to consumers, which is more than a decade away, "printed guns" are more of a novelty than a threat.
 
2013-11-14 09:35:03 AM

Pelvic Splanchnic Ganglion: dittybopper:
But this isn't about something like that.

This sort of firearm, at least for the foreseeable future, is about sneaking a gun into a place where you aren't allowed to have weapons and using it to kill someone.

I mean, you can improvise a more effective (and probably safer) gun from the stuff you can buy at Home Depot in much less time than it takes to print out something like this, which is apparently 18 hours.

People have been making one-shot zip guns since firearms were invented and they've been making them out of all kinds of materials, including ones that can pass through metal detectors.  "3D printing" a firearm changes nothing, but the media has a great time using the concept to whip the fearful and credulous into a panicked, anti-gun frenzy.  The amount of self-flagellation that the anti-gun folks are doing over this non-story is mind boggling.


Anyway - it's a non debate, and it might be better to not even take the hook.
Zip guns of any kind, including 3D printed, are illegal everywhere in the U.S., and the Second Amendment can not be used to overturn those laws.
No different than switchblades, stilettos, sawed-offs, brass knucks, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
 
2013-11-14 09:35:05 AM
Solid Concepts' printed 1911 (link) is a much better example, but it's not using the well-known plastic printing, but rather laser sintering...which technique's patent is finally falling into the public domain soon.
 
2013-11-14 09:35:06 AM

dittybopper: My father flies about once a year or so to visit my brother. His house is full of guns, and full of black powder, Pyrodex, TripleSeven, etc. He shoots regularly, nearly every day, and he's also always cleaning the guns (because muzzleloaders require it). I take him to the airport every time he flies, and I've never seen him get pulled aside after going through the "puffer". If they were that sensitive, I'd imagine they'd 'lert on him every time.


He'd get pulled or at least tagged at airports using dogs regularly now. They are infinitely more sensitive than the puffers and can detect even the slightest residue. They are doing trials now and the program will likely expand to all airports.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/TSA-Dogs-Not-In-Hous to n-4646829.php

They have also started using the dogs at large public events, like recently at the New York marathon. They are sensitive enough that they for example could have detected the black powder scent on the Boston Marathon Bombers even though both of them had cleaned up after making their bombs.
 
2013-11-14 09:35:13 AM

JusticeandIndependence: This is a crazy scenerio to think about.  With one high end 3D printer, you could make hundreds of untraceable firearms.  Great thing to have for the mafia, drug lords, or gangs.


www.thehomegunsmith.com

Zipguns have been around forever.  The 3D-printing one is just too expensive to be of any practical use.
 
2013-11-14 09:36:30 AM

zedster: How is this any different than that ceramic Glock 7


Are you kidding, those cost more than you'd make in a month!
 
2013-11-14 09:36:34 AM

xria: Headso: I wonder if this is real or just some kind of propaganda video to keep people from "messing around with a 3-d printed gun". There's an obvious threat to very wealthy and political figures from these guns so I can see why people with actual power are a little twitchy about them. Suddenly they will have to face the same dangers that normal people do.

If it was a propaganda video like you say, why would they also include the information about the other type of plastic they tested that resulted in a working 3D printed gun? Wouldn't they only mention the variant that blew up?


"The bottom line is, the penetration results demonstrated that the Liberator is a lethal weapon," Griffith said. "The .380 bullets fired from the Liberator penetrate sufficiently to reach vital organs and perforate the skull."

Pure propaganda.  Shameless.
 
2013-11-14 09:37:17 AM

capn' fun: What is the point of a 3D printed gun, really, other than just to do it because it can be done?  The time and cost far outweigh obtaining a professionally made firearm, and if you're determined enough to kill someone who is being protected by metal detectors, etc., then there are lot more effective and efficient ways to go about it.  Until the costs of printing with metal come down to make it accessible to consumers, which is more than a decade away, "printed guns" are more of a novelty than a threat.


The goal is to be able to manufacture guns outside the purview of the government. This is especially useful for when you want to do something the government has decided is not acceptable, like fight back against the usurpation of your rights.
 
2013-11-14 09:37:45 AM

zedster: How is this any different than that ceramic Glock 7


/ducks and covers


Because "OMG PRINT A GUN"..
 
2013-11-14 09:37:49 AM
What does a 3D gun sound like?
 
2013-11-14 09:38:27 AM
img.fark.net
 
2013-11-14 09:39:13 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: capn' fun: What is the point of a 3D printed gun, really, other than just to do it because it can be done?  The time and cost far outweigh obtaining a professionally made firearm, and if you're determined enough to kill someone who is being protected by metal detectors, etc., then there are lot more effective and efficient ways to go about it.  Until the costs of printing with metal come down to make it accessible to consumers, which is more than a decade away, "printed guns" are more of a novelty than a threat.

The goal is to be able to manufacture guns outside the purview of the government. This is especially useful for when you want to do something the government has decided is not acceptable, like fight back against the usurpation of your rights.


But you can do that now. You could do it a hundred years ago. This technology wouldn't change that, even if it worked.
 
2013-11-14 09:39:29 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: The Glock is a plastic gun and it is more reliable than some homemade gun made out of epoxy filament.


And not as "undetectable" as the media hysteria wanted us to believe.
 
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