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(Slate)   Very high risk junk bonds for a creationist theme park: an investment for those gullible in both financial AND science matters   (slate.com) divider line 62
    More: Fail, Ark Encounter, investments, Answers in Genesis, willful ignorance, Noah's Ark  
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3754 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Nov 2013 at 8:44 AM (22 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-13 07:58:12 AM
"Merle! MERLE! Run what for down the Piggly Wiggly and fetch me little Clovis' dialysis jar so's I can buy one-a them there Arkland bondo thingys! We can put it on top of the TV on top of the broken TV next to that piece of Bobby Allison's tire what hit you at Darlington!"
 
2013-11-13 08:46:16 AM
 
2013-11-13 08:47:57 AM
I should have stated... NSFW language on that "video" (a comedy routine)
 
2013-11-13 08:48:06 AM
You just have to have faith.
 
2013-11-13 08:49:52 AM
How can I help?
graphics8.nytimes.com
 
2013-11-13 08:50:22 AM
Fool, money, it was a good run you two had together, but we knew this day would come.
 
2013-11-13 08:51:52 AM
Why does your view on science have anything to do with investing in it or not? Do you have to eat junk food in order to think McDonalds is a good (or bad) investment at a point in time?
 
2013-11-13 08:54:13 AM
4.bp.blogspot.com
Simpsons did it
 
2013-11-13 08:55:13 AM
This isn't just a Solyndra for the religious right though.  This could actually succeed financially...in which case the callable bonds still might not earn the holder any money.  What's that saying about no one ever went broke something something?
 
rpm
2013-11-13 08:56:08 AM

xria: Why does your view on science have anything to do with investing in it or not? Do you have to eat junk food in order to think McDonalds is a good (or bad) investment at a point in time?


McDonalds is AA-. This is unrated. You've got to be damn gullible.

Hmm, looking at McDonald's makes this even more interesting. They have some bonds with the same yield as this, but those are rated "High" in credit worthiness. So the yield on these isn't even close to worth the risk.
 
2013-11-13 09:01:22 AM

xria: Why does your view on science have anything to do with investing in it or not? Do you have to eat junk food in order to think McDonalds is a good (or bad) investment at a point in time?


You are correct.  However, investing in this is worse than investing in the Green Bay Packers.  At least the Packers give you a neat little certificate to impress your fellow Cheeseheads.
 
2013-11-13 09:02:01 AM
I don't know if I'd call investing in the ignorance of creationists "very high risk". In fact, I can't think of too many things that are more certain than creationists being gullible enough to part with their money to have their lies confirmed by a "museum".

Now, if you mean that the bonds are high risk because of the park itself - like maybe it's crap or the Jesusaurus-Rex came alive and ate some chromosome-deficient children - that's another story.
 
2013-11-13 09:05:13 AM

hugram: How can I help?
[graphics8.nytimes.com image 184x268]


Perfect.  'That's "high yield" bonds, dude. Never say "junk"'
 
2013-11-13 09:13:48 AM
Really Subby? Because most people would think dressing up like Jeebus and playing laser tag with angels while riding dinosaurs would be awesome.
 
2013-11-13 09:19:49 AM
With any luck, this will have the same ending as Kent Hovind's last big project
 
2013-11-13 09:21:41 AM
I think the word you were looking for there was "scientific," subby.
 
2013-11-13 09:22:01 AM
Damn you, Ken Ham. We already have enough trouble with the idiot god-shouters in this state, and you keep bringing in more of them.
 
2013-11-13 09:26:44 AM

xria: Why does your view on science have anything to do with investing in it or not? Do you have to eat junk food in order to think McDonalds is a good (or bad) investment at a point in time?


It doesn't, but you should re-read subby's headline because he didn't say that it did.
 
2013-11-13 09:27:47 AM

rpm: xria: Why does your view on science have anything to do with investing in it or not? Do you have to eat junk food in order to think McDonalds is a good (or bad) investment at a point in time?

McDonalds is AA-. This is unrated. You've got to be damn gullible.

Hmm, looking at McDonald's makes this even more interesting. They have some bonds with the same yield as this, but those are rated "High" in credit worthiness. So the yield on these isn't even close to worth the risk.


At first glance you are correct. The yields are nowhere near high enough. Basically you are making a donation to the place if you buy these bonds.
 
2013-11-13 09:30:37 AM
There has to be some verse in the Bible that forbids this, and some verse that allows it.
 
2013-11-13 09:31:11 AM
Oh Kenny, definitely in my top 5 favorite YEC clowns .
 
2013-11-13 09:34:29 AM
Amusingly, people are hungry for bonds.    It's hard to find any bonds that are paying a non-trivial yields.   Even worse, a lot of my existing bonds have been called.   For me this isn't a big thing (other than lamenting about not continuing to earn the interest in the future) because I buy the bonds at issue and hold them to maturity.    Even the unrated bonds aren't paying that much.

Amusingly, stocks I would have never bought are doing quite well for me.   My broker bought Altria (Phillip Morris) for me a while back and I've done quite well (not withstanding the free coupons for tombstone pizza that came in with the annual report once).

The only real problem with this wacko is keeping him out of the schools.    It's the old "If you don't pray in my school, I won't think in your church" adage.
 
2013-11-13 09:39:23 AM

rpm: xria: Why does your view on science have anything to do with investing in it or not? Do you have to eat junk food in order to think McDonalds is a good (or bad) investment at a point in time?

McDonalds is AA-. This is unrated. You've got to be damn gullible.

Hmm, looking at McDonald's makes this even more interesting. They have some bonds with the same yield as this, but those are rated "High" in credit worthiness. So the yield on these isn't even close to worth the risk.


He'll get rich scamming churches.  It's going to be  like "The Producers."  He'll have a great dog and pony show he'll take on the road to mega churches (giving the pastor a nice "donation").  He'll give the "search your heart and listen to what God says" spiel followed shortly by "if you love God, he'll tell you to invest."  A couple of shills in the audience begin the money train.  He'll build something that will go bankrupt shortly and no one will know where all the mnoney went.
 
2013-11-13 09:39:54 AM
Zoidy wants to buy on margin!
 
2013-11-13 09:41:29 AM

rpm: McDonalds is AA-. This is unrated. You've got to be damn gullible.

Hmm, looking at McDonald's makes this even more interesting. They have some bonds with the same yield as this, but those are rated "High" in credit worthiness. So the yield on these isn't even close to worth the risk.


Plus, if you really get down to brass tacks and do your homework, you find out McDonald's is essentially a real estate rental company, which is a pretty stable business model.  The majority of their profit comes from renting land to the franchise store owners.  This is why you never see an out of business McDonald's.  If one does fail (it does happen, but rarely because they do so much up-front work to predict a good location) the McDonald's corporation pretty much just bull dozes it immediately, since they are the land owners.

No idea what the business model is here.....
 
2013-11-13 09:42:11 AM

skozlaw: I don't know if I'd call investing in the ignorance of creationists "very high risk". In fact, I can't think of too many things that are more certain than creationists being gullible enough to part with their money to have their lies confirmed by a "museum".

Now, if you mean that the bonds are high risk because of the park itself - like maybe it's crap or the Jesusaurus-Rex came alive and ate some chromosome-deficient children - that's another story.


The risk is putting money into a bond that depends on the honesty of one of the most willfully ignorant and egregious liars in the world. All it takes is a little bit of self delusion on his part to do some work without the right permits, or ignore some of the more stringent safety regulations, or fail to pay certain taxes because it's "church money" or otherwise run afoul of the law badly enough to cause a financial catastrophe. And if there's one thing creationists have plenty of, it's self delusion.

the cautionary tale of Kent Hovind's little adventure comes to mind
 
2013-11-13 09:47:37 AM
wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net
 
2013-11-13 09:47:46 AM
Diversify yo bonds!
 
2013-11-13 09:53:28 AM
I don't know how often I see "out of business" McD's but I've certainly see outlets close down.   They pretty much wiped out all of their foray into the store front business.    They regularly close existing locations and build new ones nearby, etc....  The major reason is that they're pretty damned selective on who they let be a franchisee and what they expect out of them.   It's not just a matter of renting a storefront and plunking down $50,000 like it is for some of the other fast food franchise operations.

McD's is one of the solid dividend payers.   Given the current bond market, it's stocks like this I've moved what would have been the bond share into.   While you are right, they do make a decent amount of money as a land owner, it's not quite as lopsided as you put it.    They have a healthy amount of owned outlets (more so internationally than in the US) as well as receiving a substantial stream via What they have learned of late is that departing from their core business hasn't really gotten them anything.    They have pretty much divested themselves of things like Chipotle, Donatos, and Boston Chicken, and the afore mentioned storefront locations.
 
2013-11-13 09:55:05 AM
A creationist theme park could actually be fun, as long as they included creation myths from all religions.
 
2013-11-13 09:58:48 AM

rpm: xria: Why does your view on science have anything to do with investing in it or not? Do you have to eat junk food in order to think McDonalds is a good (or bad) investment at a point in time?

McDonalds is AA-. This is unrated. You've got to be damn gullible.

Hmm, looking at McDonald's makes this even more interesting. They have some bonds with the same yield as this, but those are rated "High" in credit worthiness. So the yield on these isn't even close to worth the risk.


TFA's writer is financially illiterate, and is confusing you too.  What he calls "yield" is actually the bonds issue's coupon rate.  The yield of McDonald's bond, which is likely what you looked up, is the yield-to-maturity, which varies (almost) everyday, because it's a function of, among other things, the bond's market price.  The coupon rate does not change, and gives you no idea what the risk inherent in a security is.
 
2013-11-13 10:00:01 AM
the cautionary tale of Kent Hovind's little adventure comes to mind

This must be something I either missed or don't remember. What's the story?
 
2013-11-13 10:01:57 AM

Sharksfan: rpm: McDonalds is AA-. This is unrated. You've got to be damn gullible.

No idea what the business model is here.....


This is one of the most tried and true business models out there. The biggest fortune made during the gold rush was made by Levi Strauss. As hopelessly deluded as this venture appears, all the guy is doing is selling metaphorical shovels to people panning for religious gold.

in short, just another huckster fleecing the rubes. I tip my cap to him.
 
2013-11-13 10:10:22 AM
Why does this bond sale remind me so much of The Producers?
 
2013-11-13 10:13:51 AM

milkyshirt: the cautionary tale of Kent Hovind's little adventure comes to mind

This must be something I either missed or don't remember. What's the story?


Short version: When building Dinosaur Adventure land,he failed to get proper permits, he failed to withhold taxes from his employees because it was "church money" he constantly made financial transactions in amounts just under $10,000 to avoid IRS reporting rules ("structuring"), which is against the law, he failed to file or pay taxes for several years, etc

In 2006 he was charged with 12 different tax related crimes, 45 counts of structuring cash  transactions and one count of obstructing federal agents. He was found guilty on all counts and is currently on year 7 of his ten year prison sentence. He owed more than $970,000 to the IRS (plus interest), but some portion of that was probably satisfied when the government seized Dinosaur AdventureLand in 2011 and auctioned it off.

So when he gets released (currently expected to be in 2015) he'll still owe several hundred thousand to the IRS.
 
2013-11-13 10:14:20 AM
No one ever went broke overestimating the stupidity of mankind.
 
2013-11-13 10:16:02 AM

Ctrl-Alt-Del: milkyshirt: the cautionary tale of Kent Hovind's little adventure comes to mind

This must be something I either missed or don't remember. What's the story?

Short version: When building Dinosaur Adventure land,he failed to get proper permits, he failed to withhold taxes from his employees because it was "church money" he constantly made financial transactions in amounts just under $10,000 to avoid IRS reporting rules ("structuring"), which is against the law, he failed to file or pay taxes for several years, etc

In 2006 he was charged with 12 different tax related crimes, 45 counts of structuring cash  transactions and one count of obstructing federal agents. He was found guilty on all counts and is currently on year 7 of his ten year prison sentence. He owed more than $970,000 to the IRS (plus interest), but some portion of that was probably satisfied when the government seized Dinosaur AdventureLand in 2011 and auctioned it off.

So when he gets released (currently expected to be in 2015) he'll still owe several hundred thousand to the IRS.


And that's why investing money with someone who has made his entire living by by being willfully ignorant and and a nonstop liar (i.e. a creationist) is a risky investment
 
2013-11-13 10:18:00 AM

Tyrone Slothrop: A creationist theme park could actually be fun, as long as they included creation myths from all religions.


Take a rafting ride down the waters of chaos. At the end the earth rises up from the waters! Then you watch eight gods pair up with their siblings and get busy.

Needs some work there at the end.

\There'll be "drop of milk" floats at the snack bar.
 
2013-11-13 10:33:47 AM

Ctrl-Alt-Del: So when he gets released (currently expected to be in 2015) he'll still owe several hundred thousand to the IRS.


After spending a few minutes catching up with his case at Wikipedia, it seems the amount owed when he gets out is in excess of 3 million dollars. It was also amusing to read this:

Since his 2007 incarceration, Hovind has filed several lawsuits and petitions in multiple courts, including ones against the Federal Bureau of Prisons, the Commissioner of Internal Revenue, his trial judge and federal district court. In August 2013, Hovind wrote he has lost every appeal in six years and filed six new legal "battles," signing under his name with "POW"

So he's just using all his free time to be an annoying asshole filing stupid motions and appeals. Apparently he's also an annoying asshole in person,too, since he's been moved to nine or ten different facilities in 7 years
 
2013-11-13 10:33:53 AM
one thing that always bugged me is, if God just blinked the universe into existence, why not blink it out just as easily?
 
2013-11-13 10:41:34 AM

Prophet of Loss: No one ever went broke overestimating the stupidity of mankind.


Yeah, I'm kind of suprised these ventures ever fail, actually.  I guess there's a finite amount of idiots out there, and this week they're all at a different megachurch or something.
 
2013-11-13 10:46:50 AM

Ctrl-Alt-Del: milkyshirt: the cautionary tale of Kent Hovind's little adventure comes to mind

This must be something I either missed or don't remember. What's the story?

Short version: When building Dinosaur Adventure land,he failed to get proper permits, he failed to withhold taxes from his employees because it was "church money" he constantly made financial transactions in amounts just under $10,000 to avoid IRS reporting rules ("structuring"), which is against the law, he failed to file or pay taxes for several years, etc

In 2006 he was charged with 12 different tax related crimes, 45 counts of structuring cash  transactions and one count of obstructing federal agents. He was found guilty on all counts and is currently on year 7 of his ten year prison sentence. He owed more than $970,000 to the IRS (plus interest), but some portion of that was probably satisfied when the government seized Dinosaur AdventureLand in 2011 and auctioned it off.

So when he gets released (currently expected to be in 2015) he'll still owe several hundred thousand to the IRS.


Ah, okay, it's coming back to me now. It's been awhile since I paid attention to these guys and I think I was mixing this asshole up with Ken Ham.
 
2013-11-13 10:50:18 AM
TFA's writer is financially illiterate, and is confusing you too.  What he calls "yield" is actually the bonds issue's coupon rate.  The yield of McDonald's bond, which is likely what you looked up, is the yield-to-maturity, which varies (almost) everyday, because it's a function of, among other things, the bond's market price.  The coupon rate does not change, and gives you no idea what the risk inherent in a security is.

Actually, calling the coupon rate, the yield is not inaccurate.    Yes, the y2m will depend on what price you purchased the bond and when it will mature, but when you're talking about bond issuance, the only yield that matters is what the issue price is and what the total interest paid over the life.    You only need make a distinction when you are buying bonds on the secondary market.    Still it's not improper to say yield with respect to the underlying instrument (coupon rate).
 
Ant
2013-11-13 11:00:55 AM

xria: Why does your view on science have anything to do with investing in it or not? Do you have to eat junk food in order to think McDonalds is a good (or bad) investment at a point in time?


The fact that you're supplying the money so some whackos can teach kids a load of garbage should weigh heavily on your conscience.
 
Ant
2013-11-13 11:04:20 AM

skozlaw: like maybe it's crap or the Jesusaurus-Rex came alive and ate some chromosome-deficient children


I don't think it's the children who are retarded. Their poor little brains are collateral damage. It's farking depressing.
 
2013-11-13 11:11:36 AM

rnatalie: TFA's writer is financially illiterate, and is confusing you too.  What he calls "yield" is actually the bonds issue's coupon rate.  The yield of McDonald's bond, which is likely what you looked up, is the yield-to-maturity, which varies (almost) everyday, because it's a function of, among other things, the bond's market price.  The coupon rate does not change, and gives you no idea what the risk inherent in a security is.

Actually, calling the coupon rate, the yield is not inaccurate.    Yes, the y2m will depend on what price you purchased the bond and when it will mature, but when you're talking about bond issuance, the only yield that matters is what the issue price is and what the total interest paid over the life.    You only need make a distinction when you are buying bonds on the secondary market.    Still it's not improper to say yield with respect to the underlying instrument (coupon rate).


Sorry, that is just plain wrong.  The coupon rate is interest dollar amount per year divided by the PAR VALUE.  Yield-to-maturity is based on PRICE (and other things, like coupon rate, time to maturity, presence and probability of exercise of call provisions, etc.)  In short, what you wrote above is only true when a bond is trading (or being issued) at par value.  That is by far not always the case - many bonds are issued at a discount or at a premium (see also Treasury auctions).  Calling the coupon rate "yield" is not only improper and inaccurate, but causes confusion, as illustrated in this very thread.
 
Ant
2013-11-13 11:15:34 AM

Ctrl-Alt-Del: And that's why investing money with someone who has made his entire living by by being willfully ignorant and and a nonstop liar (i.e. a creationist) is a risky investment


Not to mention that, regardless of risk or lack thereof, if you actually give money to these people, you are a bad person.
 
2013-11-13 11:24:22 AM
So would they give me money if I sent them pictures of my junk?
 
2013-11-13 11:29:46 AM

xria: Why does your view on science have anything to do with investing in it or not? Do you have to eat junk food in order to think McDonalds is a good (or bad) investment at a point in time?


I would like to think an ethical person would not invest in a venture they consider unethical. For sure I would never invest in tobacco or telemarketing or creationist businesses. But maybe in the world of cash money investing, there are no ethical people.
 
2013-11-13 11:40:10 AM
I SOOOOOOOO wish I could get in on the traveling sales team that Ken will put together to work the mega churches to sell these bonds. I think you could make quite a decent living off the rubes for a few years before it went all "Producers" as several people have suggested it will.

And no, I don't have any scruples about something like this, I've had to put up with the god botherers my whole life, the least I should get out of the deal is the chance to scam them out of their retirement funds.
 
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