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(USA Today)   There are better forms of market control but, this way lets people know you're serious   (usatoday.com) divider line 100
    More: Amusing, Venezuela, printing money, Maduro, Administration of business, government spending  
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1950 clicks; posted to Business » on 13 Nov 2013 at 9:01 AM (22 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-13 09:07:26 AM
Your uncle will email you this today with the comment "coming soon from socialist obama!"
 
2013-11-13 09:10:22 AM
It's practically satirical if it weren't real.

"I have no love for this government," said Gabriela Campo, 33, a businesswoman hoping to take home a cut-price television and fridge. "They're doing this for nothing but political reasons, in time for December's elections."

Yeah, this is just a horrible political stunt, but...a new TV....hmm. Wow.
 
2013-11-13 09:11:03 AM
This is genius. Maduro gets to stoke the populist fire at no cost to himself or his cronies and bolster his popular support with some sanctioned looting while the underlying infrastructure remains intact. Which will be important for the next phase of Bolivarian Socalism in which the building is converted into either a soup kitchen or toilet paper warehouse for use in the next phase of keeping the lid on the powder keg.

There is no reason they cannot sustain this pattern of blame the Gringo behavior as long as they continue to bring in the proper outside experts to do maintenance on their complex oil systems architecture. Right?

El socialismo Venezolano es mejor socialismo más iluminado y benéfico.
 
2013-11-13 09:26:41 AM
I'm hardly a right wing apologist, but Venezuela is a cautionary note in how to *not* address income inequality.
 
2013-11-13 09:52:42 AM

stratagos: I'm hardly a right wing apologist, but Venezuela is a cautionary note in how to *not* address income inequality.


It's certainly that.  Of course, the very large number of Venezuelans supporting Chavez/Maduro is also a cautionary note in why you might not want to let income inequality reach the point/duration that it had in Venezuela..
 
2013-11-13 09:55:02 AM

Lawnchair: stratagos: I'm hardly a right wing apologist, but Venezuela is a cautionary note in how to *not* address income inequality.

It's certainly that.  Of course, the very large number of Venezuelans supporting Chavez/Maduro is also a cautionary note in why you might not want to let income inequality reach the point/duration that it had in Venezuela..


And that is a very astute comment. Congress at 9% popularity, income disparity at all time highs .. piss off enough people who are willing to say fark YOU to capitalism for a generation or more. Don't think it "could never happen here," because that's probably what they thought there too.
 
2013-11-13 10:14:29 AM

Generation_D: Lawnchair: stratagos: I'm hardly a right wing apologist, but Venezuela is a cautionary note in how to *not* address income inequality.

It's certainly that.  Of course, the very large number of Venezuelans supporting Chavez/Maduro is also a cautionary note in why you might not want to let income inequality reach the point/duration that it had in Venezuela..

And that is a very astute comment. Congress at 9% popularity, income disparity at all time highs .. piss off enough people who are willing to say fark YOU to capitalism for a generation or more. Don't think it "could never happen here," because that's probably what they thought there too.


Agreed all around.


Uhhh, I am on *Fark*, right?
 
2013-11-13 10:19:55 AM
This is absolutely the right move for them to do.  The issue here isn't blaming "gringos" or blaming America.  He is lashing out against the chamber of commerce (whatever it's name is in Venezuela).  Why would he do this? These are the same scum bags that initiated the coup against Chavez.
 
2013-11-13 10:22:38 AM
Ah, a story about Venezuela's government from USA Today, the paper geared to the corporate class. I'm sure it is a well thought-out and balanced piece.
 
2013-11-13 10:37:27 AM
Plus if I lived in South America, I wouldn't trust foreign capitalist investors or the U.S. Government.  There is A LOT of bad blood there....
 
2013-11-13 11:28:43 AM

Zeno-25: Ah, a story about Venezuela's government from USA Today, the paper geared to the corporate class. I'm sure it is a well thought-out and balanced piece.


http://m.aljazeera.com/story/201311105052572435
 
2013-11-13 11:48:55 AM

Zeno-25: Ah, a story about Venezuela's government from USA Today, the paper geared to the corporate class. I'm sure it is a well thought-out and balanced piece.


Their actions don't get any less stupid in a socialist newspaper. As an attempt to stop inflation they set the exchange rate for bolívars to the dollar artificially low. So now the government approved value of their currency is set but the actual value keeps dropping. As a result in order to make a profit companies keep raising the cost in bolívar on imported goods even though their cost in dollars hasn't changed.

The government doesn't like people pointing out that their attempts to fix the value of currency have failed. It also gives them an opportunity to force retailers to give away their inventory just before election time. Their policies would get you flunked from econ 101.
 
2013-11-13 11:50:10 AM

stratagos: I'm hardly a right wing apologist, but Venezuela is a cautionary note in how to *not* address income inequality.


Why? They've had pretty good success with literacy, modernization and healthcare.  It just sucks if you're someone like a CEO of an oil company because Venezuela now expects you to give back instead of hoarding all your profits and telling the citizens of Venezuela to get bent.

Yeah they've had shortages of some products, but would you be amazed if I told you there were shortages of products in the most free marketity free markets that were ever freed?
 
2013-11-13 11:57:06 AM

Generation_D: Congress at 9% popularity,


A more useful measure of popularity is how many people are happy with their own representatives in Congress (the ones they voted for, who are bringing the pork projects back to their home districts). Call me when that hits 9%.
 
2013-11-13 11:57:26 AM
"This is for the good of the nation," Maduro said, referring to the military's occupation of Daka. "Leave nothing on the shelves, nothing in the warehouses ... Let nothing remain in stock!"

Isn't this the guy that sells mattresses on channel 37?
 
2013-11-13 12:01:51 PM

FarkedOver: Why? They've had pretty good success with literacy, modernization and healthcare.  It just sucks if you're someone like a CEO of an oil company because Venezuela now expects you to give back instead of hoarding all your profits and telling the citizens of Venezuela to get bent.



54.3% annual inflation.  Newspapers that increased in cost by 50% from one week to another.  This is a dysfunctional economy and these policies aren't designed to remedy the cause.  The policies don't just harm CEO's, they harm the middle and professional classes as much as anyone else by eroding the value of their wages.  It is what it is, denying it or defending it is simply dishonest.
 
2013-11-13 12:02:37 PM

FarkedOver: stratagos: I'm hardly a right wing apologist, but Venezuela is a cautionary note in how to *not* address income inequality.

Why? They've had pretty good success with literacy, modernization and healthcare.  It just sucks if you're someone like a CEO of an oil company because Venezuela now expects you to give back instead of hoarding all your profits and telling the citizens of Venezuela to get bent.

Yeah they've had shortages of some products, but would you be amazed if I told you there were shortages of products in the most free marketity free markets that were ever freed?


Of course there can be shortages in a market economy, due to a slew of possible factors. Things in Venezuela are several orders of magnitude worse. The fact that the people of Venezuela freely elected their government, *and* the fact that people on the lower end of the scale tend to be better off than they were a decade ago doesn't magically fix the downsides of what is currently happening.

The problem with expecting people to sell at a loss is not that they go broke, it's that they *stop selling*, and while you can have a fire sale for a quick bump, who's going to bring in TVs now? Are they going to be made within Venezuela? Do the resources and factories exist, and will they end up costing less than one that was previously imported?

The inflation rate in Venezuela is something like 50% annually, and that very little to do with prices set by the market. Venezuela is currently printing more and more cash, which is chasing the same amount of goods. *That* is why inflation is increasing.
 
2013-11-13 12:05:03 PM

FarkedOver: stratagos: I'm hardly a right wing apologist, but Venezuela is a cautionary note in how to *not* address income inequality.

Why? They've had pretty good success with literacy, modernization and healthcare.  It just sucks if you're someone like a CEO of an oil company because Venezuela now expects you to give back instead of hoarding all your profits and telling the citizens of Venezuela to get bent.

Yeah they've had shortages of some products, but would you be amazed if I told you there were shortages of products in the most free marketity free markets that were ever freed?


Damn, I am gob smacked by your inability to understand what's going on here.  Are you Sean Penn?
 
2013-11-13 12:15:15 PM

JK47: 54.3% annual inflation. Newspapers that increased in cost by 50% from one week to another. This is a dysfunctional economy and these policies aren't designed to remedy the cause. The policies don't just harm CEO's, they harm the middle and professional classes as much as anyone else by eroding the value of their wages. It is what it is, denying it or defending it is simply dishonest.


The goal of the Bolivarian movement is not a profit driven one.  I'm perfectly fine with that, and I will defend that.  They have been expanding worker ownership of industry for quite some time as well as nationalization efforts, which I think will only enrich their society more.  As it is, if you let the corporations back in they will install their puppet government, they will rape and resources the land at the expense of the populace and suck them dry.  I say this is nothing more than growing pains for a not so capitalist society.  I know this doesn't jibe well with FREE MARKETS FOREVER, but hey not everyone is a capitalist, and not everyone wants to be a capitalist.
 
2013-11-13 12:16:38 PM

Mr. Eugenides: FarkedOver: stratagos: I'm hardly a right wing apologist, but Venezuela is a cautionary note in how to *not* address income inequality.

Why? They've had pretty good success with literacy, modernization and healthcare.  It just sucks if you're someone like a CEO of an oil company because Venezuela now expects you to give back instead of hoarding all your profits and telling the citizens of Venezuela to get bent.

Yeah they've had shortages of some products, but would you be amazed if I told you there were shortages of products in the most free marketity free markets that were ever freed?

Damn, I am gob smacked by your inability to understand what's going on here.  Are you Sean Penn?


I understand perfectly well what is going on here.  Don't be surprised when a non-capitalist looks for a non-capitalist approach to solving a problem.  It can be done, believe it or not.
 
2013-11-13 12:20:34 PM

stratagos: The inflation rate in Venezuela is something like 50% annually, and that very little to do with prices set by the market. Venezuela is currently printing more and more cash, which is chasing the same amount of goods. *That* is why inflation is increasing.


Which is a perfectly reasonable way for someone that wants to bring down the capitalist class in Venezuela.

"The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation." -- Lenin
 
2013-11-13 12:23:40 PM

FarkedOver: stratagos: The inflation rate in Venezuela is something like 50% annually, and that very little to do with prices set by the market. Venezuela is currently printing more and more cash, which is chasing the same amount of goods. *That* is why inflation is increasing.

Which is a perfectly reasonable way for someone that wants to bring down the capitalist class in Venezuela.

"The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation." -- Lenin


Because it worked out so well for the Soviet Union? Or are they now the No True Scotsmen of Socialism?
 
2013-11-13 12:25:33 PM

stratagos: FarkedOver: stratagos: The inflation rate in Venezuela is something like 50% annually, and that very little to do with prices set by the market. Venezuela is currently printing more and more cash, which is chasing the same amount of goods. *That* is why inflation is increasing.

Which is a perfectly reasonable way for someone that wants to bring down the capitalist class in Venezuela.

"The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation." -- Lenin

Because it worked out so well for the Soviet Union? Or are they now the No True Scotsmen of Socialism?


Lenin given more time I think would have proved competent in economic matters.  If his organizing an entire revolutionary movement didn't attest to his cunning, brains and will I don't know what will.

I have not and will not ever defend anything Stalin did.
 
2013-11-13 12:33:11 PM

FarkedOver: stratagos: FarkedOver: stratagos: The inflation rate in Venezuela is something like 50% annually, and that very little to do with prices set by the market. Venezuela is currently printing more and more cash, which is chasing the same amount of goods. *That* is why inflation is increasing.

Which is a perfectly reasonable way for someone that wants to bring down the capitalist class in Venezuela.

"The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation." -- Lenin

Because it worked out so well for the Soviet Union? Or are they now the No True Scotsmen of Socialism?

Lenin given more time I think would have proved competent in economic matters.  If his organizing an entire revolutionary movement didn't attest to his cunning, brains and will I don't know what will.

I have not and will not ever defend anything Stalin did.


Which has nothing to do with my question.

If your end state is akin to the Soviet Union, how do you believe the economic pressures that eventually crippled them will be resolved?
 
2013-11-13 12:42:00 PM

stratagos: If your end state is akin to the Soviet Union, how do you believe the economic pressures that eventually crippled them will be resolved?


Communism and socialism are by it's very nature international movements.  I invite you to research the topic of socialism in one state, of which Stalin was a supporter of.  Engels on the other hand, in his writings in "The Principles of the Communism" posits the question: "Can socialism occur in one country?" to which he writes: "No." and goes on to explain why.

As a Marxist and a constant student of history, I see what Stalin did and I see how he basically took Marxist Ideals and shelved them and decided that he knew better.  I will defend the Soviet Union to a point, but they were not a Communist nation (which is a oxymoron any way).

The very definition of communism is that it is a classless stateless moneyless society.  When it comes to the USSR there were classes, there was a state and there was money.  They were not a communist society.  They were a socialist nation of which the communist party was the only party.

Socialism has different sects.  There are still Stalinists out there (why, I do not know), there are Trotskyists, Maoists, etc. etc.  They each have their own theories of turning Socialism into Full communism.  Stalin, obviously failed.  Which is why I said that I will only defend the soviet union to a point.  I think given time, Venezuela  can flourish without having to bend to the will of international capitalism, BUT it will take an effort by many south american countries, which is happening as there are many left-wing causes in the area; the sandinistas, farc et al.  I think there just needs to be more time.
 
2013-11-13 12:51:23 PM
Uh huh. Soo... you can't have Socialism in one country, but Venezuela should go ahead and tear the system down anyway, because... it'll all work out in the end.

I assume you can see why that might be a less than convincing argument
 
2013-11-13 01:00:06 PM

FarkedOver: stratagos: If your end state is akin to the Soviet Union, how do you believe the economic pressures that eventually crippled them will be resolved?

Communism and socialism are by it's very nature international movements.  I invite you to research the topic of socialism in one state, of which Stalin was a supporter of.  Engels on the other hand, in his writings in "The Principles of the Communism" posits the question: "Can socialism occur in one country?" to which he writes: "No." and goes on to explain why.

As a Marxist and a constant student of history, I see what Stalin did and I see how he basically took Marxist Ideals and shelved them and decided that he knew better.  I will defend the Soviet Union to a point, but they were not a Communist nation (which is a oxymoron any way).

The very definition of communism is that it is a classless stateless moneyless society.  When it comes to the USSR there were classes, there was a state and there was money.  They were not a communist society.  They were a socialist nation of which the communist party was the only party.

Socialism has different sects.  There are still Stalinists out there (why, I do not know), there are Trotskyists, Maoists, etc. etc.  They each have their own theories of turning Socialism into Full communism.  Stalin, obviously failed.  Which is why I said that I will only defend the soviet union to a point.  I think given time, Venezuela  can flourish without having to bend to the will of international capitalism, BUT it will take an effort by many south american countries, which is happening as there are many left-wing causes in the area; the sandinistas, farc et al.  I think there just needs to be more time.


More time to do what, kill the opposition?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-24920394
 
2013-11-13 01:02:27 PM

stratagos: Uh huh. Soo... you can't have Socialism in one country, but Venezuela should go ahead and tear the system down anyway, because... it'll all work out in the end.

I assume you can see why that might be a less than convincing argument


I think they are creating a sphere of influence in spanish speaking countries in the region.  They are by no means going it alone.
 
2013-11-13 01:06:41 PM

ShadowKamui: More time to do what, kill the opposition?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-24920394


You do realize why the leftist groups went underground in Colombia, I hope?  Read up about "The Violence" in Colombia.  Communists who won elections were assassinated.  Why should they play by parliamentary if it is just going to get them killed.

Oh and for more recent news.

November 9, 2013 - Trade Unionist killed in Colombia and other Trade Unionists Threatened.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/AMR23/052/2013/en
 
2013-11-13 01:08:12 PM

FarkedOver: I think they are creating a sphere of influence in spanish speaking countries in the region.  They are by no means going it alone.


I have a lot of family in Argentina whose gov't likes to be friends with Chavez.

They all think Chavez (and Kirchner) are idiots and are destroying their respective countries
 
2013-11-13 01:10:23 PM

MugzyBrown: FarkedOver: I think they are creating a sphere of influence in spanish speaking countries in the region.  They are by no means going it alone.

I have a lot of family in Argentina whose gov't likes to be friends with Chavez.

They all think Chavez (and Kirchner) are idiots and are destroying their respective countries


I'm sure you have friends and family in Argentina who are buddy buddy with the Pope who also supported the right wing junta and had dissenters dropped out of helicopters in the middle of the ocean or imprisoned for years on end for their social beliefs.
 
2013-11-13 01:11:36 PM

FarkedOver: MugzyBrown: FarkedOver: I think they are creating a sphere of influence in spanish speaking countries in the region.  They are by no means going it alone.

I have a lot of family in Argentina whose gov't likes to be friends with Chavez.

They all think Chavez (and Kirchner) are idiots and are destroying their respective countries

I'm sure you have friends and family in Argentina who are buddy buddy with the Pope who also supported the right wing junta and had dissenters dropped out of helicopters in the middle of the ocean or imprisoned for years on end for their social beliefs.


Hell, lets bring back Pinochet.  Lets round up all the leftists and machine gun them in Santiago stadium.... again.
 
2013-11-13 01:14:57 PM

FarkedOver: stratagos: Uh huh. Soo... you can't have Socialism in one country, but Venezuela should go ahead and tear the system down anyway, because... it'll all work out in the end.

I assume you can see why that might be a less than convincing argument

I think they are creating a sphere of influence in spanish speaking countries in the region.  They are by no means going it alone.


And if the citizens of the nations involved want to try this, more power - I have zero interest in telling other people how to live.

I still think it's *insane*, and the end state will not be a socialist utopia but a series of shattered economies which will take years recovering before they can meet the needs of their citizens - but it's not my job to get involved in their internal affairs.
 
2013-11-13 01:16:16 PM

stratagos: FarkedOver: stratagos: Uh huh. Soo... you can't have Socialism in one country, but Venezuela should go ahead and tear the system down anyway, because... it'll all work out in the end.

I assume you can see why that might be a less than convincing argument

I think they are creating a sphere of influence in spanish speaking countries in the region.  They are by no means going it alone.

And if the citizens of the nations involved want to try this, more power - I have zero interest in telling other people how to live.

I still think it's *insane*, and the end state will not be a socialist utopia but a series of shattered economies which will take years recovering before they can meet the needs of their citizens - but it's not my job to get involved in their internal affairs.


It's better than living under the yoke of colonialism, as they did for centuries beforehand.
 
2013-11-13 01:19:59 PM

FarkedOver: I'm sure you have friends and family in Argentina who are buddy buddy with the Pope who also supported the right wing junta and had dissenters dropped out of helicopters in the middle of the ocean or imprisoned for years on end for their social beliefs.


FarkedOver: Hell, lets bring back Pinochet.  Lets round up all the leftists and machine gun them in Santiago stadium.... again


No, there's not a logical fallacy committed there.
 
2013-11-13 01:20:21 PM
I just find it fascinating people are so quick to point out the "horrors of the left" in south america when they have done little to no research as to why the left is as violent as it is there..... self preservation maybe? Maybe they got sick of the death squads?  Read a farking book people.
 
2013-11-13 01:23:07 PM

MugzyBrown: FarkedOver: I'm sure you have friends and family in Argentina who are buddy buddy with the Pope who also supported the right wing junta and had dissenters dropped out of helicopters in the middle of the ocean or imprisoned for years on end for their social beliefs.

FarkedOver: Hell, lets bring back Pinochet.  Lets round up all the leftists and machine gun them in Santiago stadium.... again

No, there's not a logical fallacy committed there.


Ok let me rephrase my statement.  I honestly don't give a shiat what your friends and family think in argentina think, and frankly it's irrelevant as to what they think as they are in no way a proper sample size for anything.  Tell them to move to the great land of opportunity here in the US.

Is that better?
 
2013-11-13 01:25:42 PM

FarkedOver: stratagos: FarkedOver: stratagos: Uh huh. Soo... you can't have Socialism in one country, but Venezuela should go ahead and tear the system down anyway, because... it'll all work out in the end.

I assume you can see why that might be a less than convincing argument

I think they are creating a sphere of influence in spanish speaking countries in the region.  They are by no means going it alone.

And if the citizens of the nations involved want to try this, more power - I have zero interest in telling other people how to live.

I still think it's *insane*, and the end state will not be a socialist utopia but a series of shattered economies which will take years recovering before they can meet the needs of their citizens - but it's not my job to get involved in their internal affairs.

It's better than living under the yoke of colonialism, as they did for centuries beforehand.


You do realize it is possible not to be "under the yoke of colonialism" and *also* to not run your economy into the toilet? That there are plenty of ways to minimize outside influence without going full pants on head retarded with your economic planning?

And you've gone from "everything is groovy and on track" to "better red and dead than a tool of the industial boguousis(sp?)", which is it?

Or to ask it a different way: if (when) this ctashes and burns, are you going to accept the *possibility* that your thesis on how to organize the world may be in error, or just find someone else to blame?
 
2013-11-13 01:26:08 PM

MugzyBrown: I have a lot of family in Argentina whose gov't likes to be friends with Chavez.

They all think Chavez (and Kirchner) are idiots and are destroying their respective countries


I have a lot of family in Alabama that think Obama is the antichrist and that he is ruining the country.

You see how little I added to the conversation there? That's exactly what you did.
 
2013-11-13 01:27:15 PM

FarkedOver: Ok let me rephrase my statement.  I honestly don't give a shiat what your friends and family think in argentina think, and frankly it's irrelevant as to what they think as they are in no way a proper sample size for anything.  Tell them to move to the great land of opportunity here in the US.

Is that better?


I thought you'd appreciate some first hand knowledge from somebody who has spent time in S. America talking politics.

And most of them would be very happy to move to the US.. it's not really that simple.
 
2013-11-13 01:31:03 PM

FarkedOver: FarkedOver: MugzyBrown: FarkedOver: I think they are creating a sphere of influence in spanish speaking countries in the region.  They are by no means going it alone.

I have a lot of family in Argentina whose gov't likes to be friends with Chavez.

They all think Chavez (and Kirchner) are idiots and are destroying their respective countries

I'm sure you have friends and family in Argentina who are buddy buddy with the Pope who also supported the right wing junta and had dissenters dropped out of helicopters in the middle of the ocean or imprisoned for years on end for their social beliefs.

Hell, lets bring back Pinochet.  Lets round up all the leftists and machine gun them in Santiago stadium.... again.


Easier to simply let Venezuela burn itself to the ground as a warning to everyone else.
 
2013-11-13 01:31:34 PM

stratagos: You do realize it is possible not to be "under the yoke of colonialism" and *also* to not run your economy into the toilet? That there are plenty of ways to minimize outside influence without going full pants on head retarded with your economic planning?

And you've gone from "everything is groovy and on track" to "better red and dead than a tool of the industial boguousis(sp?)", which is it?

Or to ask it a different way: if (when) this ctashes and burns, are you going to accept the *possibility* that your thesis on how to organize the world may be in error, or just find someone else to blame?


I believe that people in any country are all perfectly capable of living in a socialist society.  Marx is pretty consistent on this subject.  My point is not to explain how the world works, my point is to change it.  That is the goal of the socialist or the communist.  Capitalism is and was created by man and it is perpetuated by man.  It is my belief that socialism can be maintained in the same way.  Instead of promoting the profit motive and greed, promote the cooperation of man.  It is a revolutionary way to look at the world, which is why it is a revolutionary movement.  I don't pretend for a minute this will happen in the US in my lifetime, but I will advocate it for all people every where.
 
2013-11-13 01:32:51 PM

MugzyBrown: FarkedOver: Ok let me rephrase my statement.  I honestly don't give a shiat what your friends and family think in argentina think, and frankly it's irrelevant as to what they think as they are in no way a proper sample size for anything.  Tell them to move to the great land of opportunity here in the US.

Is that better?

I thought you'd appreciate some first hand knowledge from somebody who has spent time in S. America talking politics.

And most of them would be very happy to move to the US.. it's not really that simple.


You're arguing w/ the equivalent of a creationist. Facts and reason are meaningless unless you're just rubbing his nose in it to make fun of him.
 
2013-11-13 01:33:37 PM

MugzyBrown: I thought you'd appreciate some first hand knowledge from somebody who has spent time in S. America talking politics.

And most of them would be very happy to move to the US.. it's not really that simple.


I've got plenty of comrades that have been to Venezuela and told me how much progress the working class is making there.  So what? My story here and your story mean zilch.
 
2013-11-13 01:34:33 PM

ShadowKamui: You're arguing w/ the equivalent of a creationist. Facts and reason are meaningless unless you're just rubbing his nose in it to make fun of him.


I offered you facts about FARC and the situation in Colombia.  You don't refute them, you just call me a "creationist" and my arguments meaningless.
 
2013-11-13 01:35:08 PM

FarkedOver: I've got plenty of comrades that have been to Venezuela and told me how much progress the working class is making there.  So what? My story here and your story mean zilch.


Did your comrades find any toilet paper?  I've heard it's in great demand by the working class.
 
2013-11-13 01:35:51 PM

MugzyBrown: FarkedOver: I've got plenty of comrades that have been to Venezuela and told me how much progress the working class is making there.  So what? My story here and your story mean zilch.

Did your comrades find any toilet paper?  I've heard it's in great demand by the working class.


No, they brought replicas of the U.S. Constitution for that.
 
2013-11-13 01:37:44 PM

MugzyBrown: FarkedOver: I've got plenty of comrades that have been to Venezuela and told me how much progress the working class is making there.  So what? My story here and your story mean zilch.

Did your comrades find any toilet paper?  I've heard it's in great demand by the working class.


My friends mostly got sick on the trip, traveler's shiats, but they were treated by great Cuban doctors.... for free.  They then came back to the US and UH OH! Drug shortages..... :( ride it out pussy boy, is what their PCP told them.

http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSAfety/DrugShortages/default.htm
 
2013-11-13 01:44:54 PM

FarkedOver: stratagos: You do realize it is possible not to be "under the yoke of colonialism" and *also* to not run your economy into the toilet? That there are plenty of ways to minimize outside influence without going full pants on head retarded with your economic planning?

And you've gone from "everything is groovy and on track" to "better red and dead than a tool of the industial boguousis(sp?)", which is it?

Or to ask it a different way: if (when) this ctashes and burns, are you going to accept the *possibility* that your thesis on how to organize the world may be in error, or just find someone else to blame?

I believe that people in any country are all perfectly capable of living in a socialist society.  Marx is pretty consistent on this subject.  My point is not to explain how the world works, my point is to change it.  That is the goal of the socialist or the communist.  Capitalism is and was created by man and it is perpetuated by man.  It is my belief that socialism can be maintained in the same way.  Instead of promoting the profit motive and greed, promote the cooperation of man.  It is a revolutionary way to look at the world, which is why it is a revolutionary movement.  I don't pretend for a minute this will happen in the US in my lifetime, but I will advocate it for all people every where.


Ah, so this is a matter of *faith* rather than logic. My apologies, I didn't know we were talking religion. You, uh, you have fun with that, I guess
 
2013-11-13 01:47:38 PM
FarkedOver: My friends mostly got sick on the trip, traveler's shiats, but they were treated by great Cuban doctors.... for free.  They then came back to the US and UH OH! Drug shortages..... :( ride it out pussy boy, is what their PCP told them.

http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSAfety/DrugShortages/default.htm


Of course you know the toilet paper shortages have been going on for over a year.

The manufacture process of toilet paper and prescription drugs is a fair comparison too

You sure are a master debater.
 
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