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(CNN)   In a move that's totally and completely not related to them being in the pocket of Big Pharma, the American Heart Association announces new guidelines that suggest up to 1/3 of Americans should be on statins   (cnn.com) divider line 105
    More: Obvious, American Heart Association, American College of Cardiology, Americans, statins, cholesterol, HDL, bad cholesterol, cardiology  
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2276 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Nov 2013 at 4:02 AM (34 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-12 08:42:26 PM
Well, there goes my FY 14 budget right out the window.
 
2013-11-12 11:56:46 PM
Oh good lord.

Statins are not a friggin wonder drug. There are drug and supplement interactions with statins to start. They toxify your liver, they can actually raise your chances of getting diabetes, they can cause neuropathy and memory loss.

Not a big fan.
 
2013-11-13 12:14:51 AM
I'm going to assume submitter would rather they start taking herbal supplements, or perhaps some homeopathy.
 
2013-11-13 12:29:24 AM

bdub77: They toxify your liver,


Oh, I was all excited until you posted.  I don't have high cholesterol, but I steer clear of shiat that farks with your liver.

/looking at you, acetaminophen
 
2013-11-13 12:59:01 AM

log_jammin: I'm going to assume submitter would rather they start taking herbal supplements, or perhaps some homeopathy.


Not submitter, but how about consuming less cholesterol (and salt, and fats, and... well, how about just consuming less in general; American portions are way to large, and adding a "clean your plate" mentality to that doesn't help) rather than consuming too much and then resorting to medicines to lower your blood cholesterol level for you? A decent regimen of cardiovascular exercise probably wouldn't hurt either.

The fact that nearly 1/3 of all Americans would have to answer yes to one of these questions from TFA is... well, there is something very very wrong with society and lifestyles.

Do you have heart disease? Do you have diabetes (Type 1 or 2)? Do you have a bad cholesterol level more than 190? And is your 10-year risk of a heart attack greater than 7.5%?

According to TFA, the new guidelines are if you answer yes to any one of those, you should be on statins. According to later in the article, that's 72 million people! That's kind of nuts, don't you think?
 
2013-11-13 01:54:15 AM

mamoru: Not submitter, but how about consuming less cholesterol (and salt, and fats, and... well, how about just consuming less in general; American portions are way to large, and adding a "clean your plate" mentality to that doesn't help) rather than consuming too much and then resorting to medicines to lower your blood cholesterol level for you? A decent regimen of cardiovascular exercise probably wouldn't hurt either.


Nowhere does the AHA say they are against any of that. actually they mention it as part of their recommendation.

For those who do not fit those criteria, the committee behind the new policy says lifestyle and behavior management should be sufficient to help manage high cholesterol.
"The focus for years has been on getting the LDL low," said Dr. Neil Stone, committee chairman.
"Our guidelines are not against that. We're simply saying how you get the LDL low is important. Considering all the possible treatments, we recommend a heart-healthy lifestyle and statin therapy for the best chance of reducing your risk of stroke or heart attack in the next 10 years."


mamoru: The fact that nearly 1/3 of all Americans would have to answer yes to one of these questions from TFA is... well, there is something very very wrong with society and lifestyles.


without a doubt.

mamoru: According to TFA, the new guidelines are if you answer yes to any one of those, you should be on statins. According to later in the article, that's 72 million people! That's kind of nuts, don't you think?


yes I do.

But of course none of this has anything to do with submitter's assertion that this recommendation by the AHA is somehow proof they are "in the pocket of Big Pharma"
 
2013-11-13 04:07:41 AM
Fish oil works fine for managing cholesterol.  Of course you have to exercise for your body to process the fish oil into hormones that clean out your plaque, but we are talking going on a walk, kind of exercise, not killing oneself at the gym for two hours a day.
 
2013-11-13 04:08:01 AM
I miss the good old days before Big Pharm took over the medical industry. Visit the local covered wagon for some Pep Pills, stop by the Sawbones for some bloodletting, fix ya right up. Ah well, I'll stick with my chiropractor and acupuncturist to treat my ailments, you sheeple go to your "MD's" for your "diagnoses". Suckers
 
2013-11-13 04:14:34 AM
Aloe vera juice and white fungus juice (both you can find at virtually any Asian grocery) work wonders for cholesterol. That and staying away from the 100-ingredients-for-something-that-should-be-1 to 5 foods, aka processed.
 
2013-11-13 04:14:49 AM

mamoru: log_jammin: I'm going to assume submitter would rather they start taking herbal supplements, or perhaps some homeopathy.

Not submitter, but how about consuming less cholesterol (and salt, and fats, and... well, how about just consuming less in general; American portions are way to large, and adding a "clean your plate" mentality to that doesn't help) rather than consuming too much and then resorting to medicines to lower your blood cholesterol level for you? A decent regimen of cardiovascular exercise probably wouldn't hurt either.

The fact that nearly 1/3 of all Americans would have to answer yes to one of these questions from TFA is... well, there is something very very wrong with society and lifestyles.

Do you have heart disease? Do you have diabetes (Type 1 or 2)? Do you have a bad cholesterol level more than 190? And is your 10-year risk of a heart attack greater than 7.5%?

According to TFA, the new guidelines are if you answer yes to any one of those, you should be on statins. According to later in the article, that's 72 million people! That's kind of nuts, don't you think?


If you eat less cholesterol, your liver produces more. Dietary cholesterol is less related to high levels of blood cholesterol than are saturated fats, trans fats, and carbohydrate intake. You can be a vegan (meaning you would consume 0 cholesterol) and have high cholesterol levels in your blood. I am vegetarian and have high cholesterol and blood sugar from Seroquel. My aunt has high cholesterol in spite of being a runner and rail thin, and hers is genetic.
 
2013-11-13 04:21:33 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I miss the good old days before Big Pharm took over the medical industry. Visit the local covered wagon for some Pep Pills, stop by the Sawbones for some bloodletting, fix ya right up. Ah well, I'll stick with my chiropractor and acupuncturist to treat my ailments, you sheeple go to your "MD's" for your "diagnoses". Suckers



Big Pharma sounds it could be the name of the heavyset woman tending bar at the local saloon with a bottle in one hand and a shotgun in the other. "Uh oh, boys, Ernie pissed off Big Pharma. She's gonna beat him like a piñata. Run, Ernie! Oh Lord she's got him by the hair."
 
2013-11-13 04:24:59 AM
Among the four questions to ask to determine risks: Do you have heart disease? Do you have diabetes (Type 1 or 2)? Do you have a bad cholesterol level more than 190? And is your 10-year risk of a heart attack greater than 7.5%?

Among
the four? That's exactly four, you choad. Also, that retarded spreadsheet on the heart association spreadsheet has note that it can only be used for people 40 and over. So apparently some industry bootlicker decided that no one in America ever has a heart attack before the age of 50.
 
2013-11-13 04:27:06 AM

kling_klang_bed: Aloe vera juice and white fungus juice (both you can find at virtually any Asian grocery) work wonders for cholesterol. That and staying away from the 100-ingredients-for-something-that-should-be-1 to 5 foods, aka processed.


White fungus juice? Hork!
 
2013-11-13 04:29:34 AM
My whole extended family is just lousy with allied health professionals. Nearly all the women work as geriatric home health nurses. None of them are fans of Statins.

Too many side effects in general, but warnings about liver function must always be taken very seriously.
 
2013-11-13 04:30:03 AM

mamoru: Not submitter, but how about consuming less cholesterol (and salt, and fats, and...


The original study on cholesterol and heart disease is flawed.

The original study found a correlation between heart disease and blood cholesterol levels. It was hypothesized that high cholesterol causes heart disease.

1. Turns out cholesterol detection techniques was like counting cars by number of headlights. Small cholesterol and large cholesterol were counted as a single thing. There are now good and bad cholesterol depending on the size of the cholesterol.

2. Some research now suggests that high cholesterol is seen in people with heart disease because the body is trying to repair the broken blood vessels and good cholesterol is the building block to do so. It might be that heart disease causes high cholesterol rather than high cholesterol causes heart disease.

Statins work by blocking cholesterol. So, you end up blocking the body's mechanism to repair damaged vessels. The only benefit is that you also block the bad cholesterol but that can be regulated by diet.

And BTW, fats and salts causing heart disease is also disputed (at least sat fats - trans fat everyone agrees is bad but sat. fat is disputed). They are all based on statistical studies that have problems. These studies were not medical studies but finding populations and eating habits and making conclusions from that.
 
2013-11-13 04:36:34 AM
You can count my cholesterol from my cold, dead hands.  MY COLD DEAD HANDS!
 
2013-11-13 04:40:22 AM

Ooba Tooba: kling_klang_bed: Aloe vera juice and white fungus juice (both you can find at virtually any Asian grocery) work wonders for cholesterol. That and staying away from the 100-ingredients-for-something-that-should-be-1 to 5 foods, aka processed.

White fungus juice? Hork!


It's not anywhere near as bad as it sounds. Mushrooms are mostly white, and they are fungus, no?
Anywho, it does taste a bit like thai tea sans the milk.
 
2013-11-13 04:42:51 AM
And BTW, fats and salts causing heart disease is also disputed (at least sat fats - trans fat everyone agrees is bad but sat. fat is disputed). They are all based on statistical studies that have problems. These studies were not medical studies but finding populations and eating habits and making conclusions from that.

The chart I remember seeing had saturated fats as a fairly minor but still statistically significant risk factor, whereas unsaturated fats were a very significant risk reducer.

That suggests: Olive oil oneverything. Avocados for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Those are answers I want to hear, so I tend to believe it. (kidding).

But seriously I am not a medical professional and I have not done a broad survey on the topic, so I do not know if those conclusions were the spurious results of one study or the consensus of many repeated studies.
 
2013-11-13 04:42:55 AM
Subby could be right.

Or the Heart Association just gave up on people eating well and living a healthy lifestyle so just told 1/3 of them "Take your statins, and go be fat somewhere else."
 
2013-11-13 04:46:07 AM
For me, niacin worked better than statins.
 
2013-11-13 04:47:52 AM
Maybe y'all should you know stop eatin' so gosh darn much all the time.
 
2013-11-13 04:59:03 AM
Here's a controversial idea, exercise a little, eat well and then don't worry if you're in that third of Americans that might need medication to regulate their unhealthy lifestyle? To be in the bottom third of a nation with such a high level of obesity etc. clearly you're doing something very wrong. Just a thought.
 
2013-11-13 05:00:25 AM
this is a terrible idea
 
2013-11-13 05:07:46 AM

Enigmamf: And BTW, fats and salts causing heart disease is also disputed (at least sat fats - trans fat everyone agrees is bad but sat. fat is disputed). They are all based on statistical studies that have problems. These studies were not medical studies but finding populations and eating habits and making conclusions from that.

The chart I remember seeing had saturated fats as a fairly minor but still statistically significant risk factor, whereas unsaturated fats were a very significant risk reducer.

That suggests: Olive oil oneverything. Avocados for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Those are answers I want to hear, so I tend to believe it. (kidding).

But seriously I am not a medical professional and I have not done a broad survey on the topic, so I do not know if those conclusions were the spurious results of one study or the consensus of many repeated studies.


These are population studies using statistical techniques and only imply correlation. All the medical mumbo-jumbo is added after the results are in - theories to fit the data.

The problem with these are hidden factors. Sure, people who eat olive oil have lower incidence of heart disease but the statistical method requires the researcher to make sure that they compare all the possible factors.

So, the researcher has to start knowing every possible cause of heart disease and then test various populations against these known factors. If there is some factor of heart disease he didn't consider, then the study is faulty.

One major flaw is that researchers believed sugar was harmless. They did not factor sugar consumption that into their studies.

Medical assumptions change all the time. HFCS has the word fructose in it because they believed that fructose was healthy because it came from fruits and it was processed by the liver and did not raise blood sugars.

So, there are all sorts of hidden assumptions before coming up with the final statistical results.


Some people say that the PUFA oils like olive oil which travel from Italy and stay in shelves for months in a clear glass container is vastly different than the olive oil a person would eat right off the factory in Mediterranean. The imported oilive oil which is unsaturated will break down with time and exposure and may have unhealthy compounds.
But, it's all theory and somebody has to figure out a way to test it easily.

Think of Popeye. A lab mistake caused the iron levels in spinach to be ten times what it should have been and a faulty research result was published. People believed eating iron made you strong. So, Popeye eats spinach to suddenly become strong. So, bad research can be easily entrenched in society.
 
2013-11-13 05:23:27 AM
Excellent headline. I also like how CNN is the lube.
 
2013-11-13 05:24:56 AM
Hey subby, maybe you should read the article before submitting:

So does this mean big bucks for the pharmaceutical companies? Nissen said no -- and in fact, it may mean a downturn in their business.

"Now, except for Crestor, they're virtually all generic -- you can get a three-month supply for $10," he said. "So there's really no money to be made with statins anymore."
 
2013-11-13 05:48:40 AM

log_jammin: I'm going to assume submitter would rather they start taking herbal supplements, or perhaps some homeopathy.


Oh certainly, diet and exercise would be far too ridiculous. What kind of crazy dirt eating whackado would do such uncivilized things?
 
2013-11-13 05:49:34 AM
mr0x:These are population studies using statistical techniques and only imply correlation. All the medical mumbo-jumbo is added after the results are in - theories to fit the data.

If you dislike "theories to fit the data", you may be in the wrong profession.

Theories exist to be tested, and until counterexamples can be shown, the hypotheses that fit data are far better than hypotheses without data.
 
2013-11-13 05:50:38 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I miss the good old days before Big Pharm took over the medical industry. Visit the local covered wagon for some Pep Pills, stop by the Sawbones for some bloodletting, fix ya right up. Ah well, I'll stick with my chiropractor and acupuncturist to treat my ailments, you sheeple go to your "MD's" for your "diagnoses". Suckers


So, the discomfort with pills might be something you find amusing. But, let me share something with you.

When my hot flashes got to their worst, my mother (an RN) mentioned something to me called Premarin. I did only some cursory investigation. Their own website indicates the drug as increasing the risks of uterine cancers. Further research revealed the increases were significant.

But, that crap got approved and is being pushed on female patients dealing with menopause. Nice, eh?

There are some other drugs they advertise on FOX or CNN (for twitchy foot syndrome or some other minor grief) that straight up TELL YOU they cause TB.

And they got approved for sale.

No, I think it's entirely healthy for people to look at the drug industry through a jaundiced eye. And, there's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to find a more natural way to deal with your problems first - seeking a pharmaceutical solution second.
 
2013-11-13 05:51:11 AM
meanwhile research grants for amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) soar.
 
2013-11-13 05:52:31 AM

bdub77: your chances of getting diabetes, they can cause neuropathy and memory loss.


wwhaat ddid youuu juydsrty csasdfguyuk?
 
2013-11-13 05:52:53 AM
Statins?

They have some shiatty side-effects... my father looked like he was slowly dying when he was on it, but when he stopped taking that crap he became a lot happier and healthier to look at.

Besides, high cholesterol isn't necessarily bad... it's just text-book bad.
 
2013-11-13 05:56:10 AM
This has nothing to do with Americans' unhealthy lifestyles. Now, go back to eating your triple double cheeseburger, citizen.
 
2013-11-13 05:57:55 AM
I think the decision as to whether to take statins will be easy for some and hard for others. If you have a known heart-related issue its easy. Millions benefit from these drugs.

Even if youre an idiot who thinks clinical trials are all rigged you should have figured that out.
 
2013-11-13 06:01:35 AM

bdub77: Oh good lord.

Statins are not a friggin wonder drug. There are drug and supplement interactions with statins to start. They toxify your liver, they can actually raise your chances of getting diabetes, they can cause neuropathy and memory loss.

Not a big fan.


They have pills for all of those too.
 
2013-11-13 06:01:38 AM
Eat some beans with every meal.


If you need to take paint remover to remove the paint you ate, you should just stop eating paint.
 
2013-11-13 06:03:06 AM

phenn: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I miss the good old days before Big Pharm took over the medical industry. Visit the local covered wagon for some Pep Pills, stop by the Sawbones for some bloodletting, fix ya right up. Ah well, I'll stick with my chiropractor and acupuncturist to treat my ailments, you sheeple go to your "MD's" for your "diagnoses". Suckers

So, the discomfort with pills might be something you find amusing. But, let me share something with you.

When my hot flashes got to their worst, my mother (an RN) mentioned something to me called Premarin. I did only some cursory investigation. Their own website indicates the drug as increasing the risks of uterine cancers. Further research revealed the increases were significant.

But, that crap got approved and is being pushed on female patients dealing with menopause. Nice, eh?

There are some other drugs they advertise on FOX or CNN (for twitchy foot syndrome or some other minor grief) that straight up TELL YOU they cause TB.

And they got approved for sale.

No, I think it's entirely healthy for people to look at the drug industry through a jaundiced eye. And, there's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to find a more natural way to deal with your problems first - seeking a pharmaceutical solution second.


You dont understand how side effects and warnings work at all, so you should discuss medications with your doctor. online forums might help or might make it worse.

No drug can give you tb..if you already have tb, some drugs can weaken your immune systems ability to stop the disease from getting worse.
 
2013-11-13 06:03:07 AM

ambercat: log_jammin: I'm going to assume submitter would rather they start taking herbal supplements, or perhaps some homeopathy.

Oh certainly, diet and exercise would be far too ridiculous. What kind of crazy dirt eating whackado would do such uncivilized things?


I believe I've already covered this. perhaps you should read the rest of the thread.
 
2013-11-13 06:05:44 AM
Maybe just cut down on these:

farm3.staticflickr.com
 
2013-11-13 06:07:49 AM

phenn: And, there's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to find a more natural way to deal with your problems first


like tobacco, arsenic, and mercury.
 
2013-11-13 06:13:35 AM
My Doctor had me on statins for a couple of years. He was never happy with the results. I started eating oatmeal and taking flaxseed oil and fish oil. My levels went way down. He said " see? my medicine is working." He's the same quack that told me that it was "too late" for diet and excercise. It was more important for him to push as many drugs as possible. after reading the side effects I decided paying $120/month for something that was killing my liver was no longer an option. I need my liver for Vodak.
Plus he gave me Celebrex for hip pain. The side effects included "sudden death". That crap was taken off the market a couple of months later.
 
2013-11-13 06:14:03 AM
This is why I run in the morning.

How are those people not ALREADY on statins, Jesus. Except for those with diabeetus... Seems like an odd one to assume all of them need a statin.

/locked out of the hotel gym
//crazy old bitty needs her privacy
 
2013-11-13 06:16:48 AM

Animatronik: You dont understand how side effects and warnings work at all, so you should discuss medications with your doctor. online forums might help or might make it worse.

No drug can give you tb..if you already have tb, some drugs can weaken your immune systems ability to stop the disease from getting worse.


You don't think doctors push pills? When I was diagnosed with Crohn's, my doctor tried to put me on antidepressants. Why? According to him, because my insurance would cover it. I was not clinically depressed. Talking to your doc about medications certainly can produce a mixed bag. Nothing wrong with reading up on your own as well.

And, IMHO, any drug that weakens your immune system is bad medicine. You rely on the health of your immune system to survive - above anything else. It's foolish to start farking about with it.

Again, if you deal with what ails you in a natural way, I honestly think you're better off. My doctor - now - tries that approach first. Medication or other therapeutic measures second.
 
2013-11-13 06:25:40 AM

JoelWhy: Hey subby, maybe you should read the article before submitting:

So does this mean big bucks for the pharmaceutical companies? Nissen said no -- and in fact, it may mean a downturn in their business.

"Now, except for Crestor, they're virtually all generic -- you can get a three-month supply for $10," he said. "So there's really no money to be made with statins anymore."


72 million by $40/year  = close to $3 billion spent on statins. So not exactly nothing.
 
2013-11-13 06:26:14 AM

phenn: And, IMHO, any drug that weakens your immune system is bad medicine. You rely on the health of your immune system to survive - above anything else. It's foolish to start farking about with it.


so is Chemotherapy out as well Dr?
 
2013-11-13 06:27:15 AM
6 Charts That Show How The War On Fat Was A Gigantic Mistake

Looking more and more like cholesterol is the symptom not the problem.  Not surprisingly, American medicine wants to treat the symptom.
 
2013-11-13 06:30:42 AM
They did this same ploy with blood pressure drugs a while back. Used to be 140/90 was considered ok. They lowered it to 120/80.
 
2013-11-13 06:31:57 AM

log_jammin: phenn: And, IMHO, any drug that weakens your immune system is bad medicine. You rely on the health of your immune system to survive - above anything else. It's foolish to start farking about with it.

so is Chemotherapy out as well Dr?


It is for me. You have to do what you think best for you.
 
2013-11-13 06:36:28 AM

Resident Muslim: Subby could be right.

Or the Heart Association just gave up on people eating well and living a healthy lifestyle so just told 1/3 of them "Take your statins, and go be fat somewhere else."


I work with too many thin people who eat rabbit food and take statins because they were told their cholesterol is too high to believe it's that simple.  Now I realize the plural of anecdote is not 'data', but goddamn that seems awfully weird.
 
2013-11-13 06:41:35 AM

phenn: It is for me. You have to do what you think best for you.


so you'd rather die of cancer rather than risk a secondary illness?

ok...
 
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