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(Neowin)   Just days before the release of its next gen console, Sony quietly changes their EULA to prohibit users from selling their used games   (neowin.net) divider line 137
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5899 clicks; posted to Geek » on 11 Nov 2013 at 4:51 PM (34 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-11-11 04:09:30 PM
7.1. You must not resell either Disc-based Software or Software Downloads, unless expressly authorised by us and, if the publisher is another company, additionally by the publisher.

Before grabbing the torches and pitchforks, give Sony a chance to say they meant only to prohibit people from going into the game selling business without signing a distributor agreement. That's not what the clause says, but it might be what Sony meant to say.

Unfortunately, if typical corporate lawyers are involved they will advise Sony not to back down even a little because customer satisfaction (like employee satisfaction) has zero value to them. A lawyer would rather have an unenforceable clause saying they can torture your family to death than a clause that says what it means and means what it says. The broad clause will come with a severability claus that says if they can't torture they can maim, and if they can't maim they can flay, and if they can't flay they can seek punitive damages, and if they can't seek punitive damages they can ban you from the internet for life, and so on...

Yes, I just had an annoying experience dealing with a corporation that claimed to have reasonable demands and wouldn't compromise on its lawyers' unreasonable language.  Why do you ask?
 
2013-11-11 04:42:01 PM
i1182.photobucket.com
 
2013-11-11 04:44:31 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-11-11 04:45:38 PM

ZAZ: Before grabbing the torches and pitchforks, give Sony a chance to say they meant only to prohibit people from going into the game selling business without signing a distributor agreement. That's not what the clause says, but it might be what Sony meant to say


I never give lawyers the benefit of the doubt, especially if they're charging by the hour.
 
2013-11-11 04:48:45 PM
That's fine. I'll just click "Do not accept" when the TOS comes up. Problem solved.
/I bet you took my post seriously, didn't you?
 
2013-11-11 04:56:17 PM
Sony is quickly replacing WalMart as the most evil company on Earth
 
2013-11-11 04:57:00 PM
I smell false outrage over nothing..
 
2013-11-11 05:01:55 PM
God bless you, Sony. Somehow, you manage to make EA look sensible and reasonable.
 
2013-11-11 05:04:10 PM
Of course, since selling a game disc you previously purchased is legal everywhere, the ToS means nothing here, as Sony is not, despite their intended end-game, the ruler of the world. The ToS can't make laws.
 
2013-11-11 05:04:39 PM

scottydoesntknow: That's fine. I'll just click "Do not accept" when the TOS comes up. Problem solved.
/I bet you took my post seriously, didn't you?


And you will have a nice unusable console.  I tried the do not accept button on ncaa 14 and it would kick me back to the title screen were if you press start it pops up with do you accept again.
 
2013-11-11 05:06:40 PM
Well then.

Guess I'll keep being a PC gamer and using Steam.
 
2013-11-11 05:08:22 PM
Really?  Someone's really thinking that after Jack Tretton got a standing ovation at E3 for that very slide at their presentation 5 months ago, they're gonna turn around and backtrack on everything people liked about their system?

Are we sure this isn't the software usage terms for review copies or demo kiosks?  This would be bizarro levels of odd if the roles were reversed this close to launch day.
 
2013-11-11 05:09:11 PM
When was the last time someone actually decided not to do something they wanted to do because the EULA said you shouldn't?  Given this is attempting to prevent you from first-sale doctrine...I can't imagine it'd be held up in court...

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/10-ridiculous-eula-clauses-agreed/

/probably 1000 more like these...
 
2013-11-11 05:09:29 PM
But the real question is will there be any mechanics in place to prevent this?  If not then how will they possibly enforce this?

Scrotastic Method: Of course, since selling a game disc you previously purchased is legal everywhere, the ToS means nothing here, as Sony is not, despite their intended end-game, the ruler of the world. The ToS can't make laws.


THIS.  The first sale doctrine still applies.
 
2013-11-11 05:09:47 PM

Scrotastic Method: Of course, since selling a game disc you previously purchased is legal everywhere, the ToS means nothing here, as Sony is not, despite their intended end-game, the ruler of the world. The ToS can't make laws.


4.1. All Software is licensed, not sold, which means you acquire rights to use the Software, as described in these Terms, but you do not acquire ownership of the Software. If you do not comply with these Terms, we can terminate your Software Licence which means you will no longer have the right to use the Software.

meat0918: Guess I'll keep being a PC gamer and using Steam.


Steam does the same thing, it's just in a market where alternatives to Steam exist (GOG, GMG, Desura, etc) so people can get around it if Steam decides to be douchebags about it. Consoles are different in that the system itself is controlled by a company, rather than you.
 
2013-11-11 05:10:29 PM

Infernalist: God bless you, Sony. Somehow, you manage to make EA look sensible and reasonable.


Let's not go to far here.  You are talking about EA after all.
 
2013-11-11 05:11:15 PM
So, the article only mentions the changes being in the UK Software Usage Terms. Since. according to the article, similar terms were in place for the PS3 in the UK, I would assume it has to do with contract law over there, and the terms may not change here.
 
2013-11-11 05:11:23 PM
I don't have an opinion on this one way or another, but my GOD if I see one more self righteous "Steam" comment....
 
2013-11-11 05:11:28 PM

styckx: I smell false outrage over nothing..


Yeah until I see DRM popping up I'm thinking that ZAZ is on the right track.

/no DRM means no way of enforcing this
 
2013-11-11 05:12:06 PM

FarkGrudge: When was the last time someone actually decided not to do something they wanted to do because the EULA said you shouldn't?  Given this is attempting to prevent you from first-sale doctrine...I can't imagine it'd be held up in court...

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/10-ridiculous-eula-clauses-agreed/

/probably 1000 more like these...


Forgot to mention that Sony's "No Class Action Lawsuit" clause in that link is particularly relevant here...
 
2013-11-11 05:13:13 PM
Non-Story/article. They haven't blocked reselling of games.

/ffs stupid people misunderstanding eulas
 
2013-11-11 05:14:47 PM

sprawl15: Scrotastic Method: Of course, since selling a game disc you previously purchased is legal everywhere, the ToS means nothing here, as Sony is not, despite their intended end-game, the ruler of the world. The ToS can't make laws.

4.1. All Software is licensed, not sold, which means you acquire rights to use the Software, as described in these Terms, but you do not acquire ownership of the Software. If you do not comply with these Terms, we can terminate your Software Licence which means you will no longer have the right to use the Software.

meat0918: Guess I'll keep being a PC gamer and using Steam.

Steam does the same thing, it's just in a market where alternatives to Steam exist (GOG, GMG, Desura, etc) so people can get around it if Steam decides to be douchebags about it. Consoles are different in that the system itself is controlled by a company, rather than you.


You mean, exactly like how music on CDs work(ed)?  How did that go for the RIAA and the first-sale doctrine again?
 
2013-11-11 05:14:56 PM
The real question is if Playstation is going to go to War with Gamestop over this.

If so, huge deal.

If not, who cares?

Gamestop makes the vast percentage of their profit on resales, so I highly doubt they're just going to roll over on this one.

This move shouldn't be surprising to anyone who ever bought a playstation and paid another $20-60 for a "memory card" that only stored a very limited number of saved games.
 
2013-11-11 05:16:54 PM
This just in - a lot of Terms of Service clauses are unenforceable legally.
 
2013-11-11 05:17:05 PM
Hey, cool. I'm not re-licensing the software, I'm selling the disk. The software has nothing to do with that transaction.
 
2013-11-11 05:17:33 PM

sprawl15: Scrotastic Method: Of course, since selling a game disc you previously purchased is legal everywhere, the ToS means nothing here, as Sony is not, despite their intended end-game, the ruler of the world. The ToS can't make laws.

4.1. All Software is licensed, not sold, which means you acquire rights to use the Software, as described in these Terms, but you do not acquire ownership of the Software. If you do not comply with these Terms, we can terminate your Software Licence which means you will no longer have the right to use the Software.

meat0918: Guess I'll keep being a PC gamer and using Steam.

Steam does the same thing, it's just in a market where alternatives to Steam exist (GOG, GMG, Desura, etc) so people can get around it if Steam decides to be douchebags about it. Consoles are different in that the system itself is controlled by a company, rather than you.


I think Steam knows it reaps the benefits of enabling it (with permission from those development studios) for those that wish to resell a game after they are done with it.

//I've only sold cards, still cannot believe people buy them...
 
2013-11-11 05:17:48 PM
Oh, it's this story again.

This sort of thing has been around for at least the last few console generations.  It's just that with the whole used game hoopla this gen, people actually read this part of the EULA this time.  Please focus your outrage on something that might matter.
 
2013-11-11 05:18:24 PM

FarkGrudge: You mean, exactly like how music on CDs work(ed)? How did that go for the RIAA and the first-sale doctrine again?


Hilariously. Grandmothers are never going to vote RIAA for president again.
 
2013-11-11 05:18:49 PM
I have oodles of games i never play, and never have once considered selling them to Gamestop... It wouldn't even be worth the price of gas to get over there.  Might as well hang onto them as novelty items.
 
2013-11-11 05:19:47 PM

justtray: The real question is if Playstation is going to go to War with Gamestop over this.

If so, huge deal.


Sony made their hay on not blocking used games.  I really don't think they'll try again, and 3rd party companies seem to have(mostly) gotten the message after the online pass fiasco.
 
2013-11-11 05:21:16 PM
Sony makes covert changes to their service after already making promises and sales to the contrary.  Why am I not surprised?
 
2013-11-11 05:23:17 PM

quiotu: Really?  Someone's really thinking that after Jack Tretton got a standing ovation at E3 for that very slide at their presentation 5 months ago, they're gonna turn around and backtrack on everything people liked about their system?

Are we sure this isn't the software usage terms for review copies or demo kiosks?  This would be bizarro levels of odd if the roles were reversed this close to launch day.


Its Sony.
 
2013-11-11 05:25:38 PM

styckx: I smell false outrage over nothing..


That's one of the rules for participating in the Console War meta-game.
 
2013-11-11 05:26:01 PM

sprawl15: 4.1. All Software is licensed, not sold, which means you acquire rights to use the Software, as described in these Terms, but you do not acquire ownership of the Software. If you do not comply with these Terms, we can terminate your Software Licence which means you will no longer have the right to use the Software.


How are they going to terminate disc-based games?
 
2013-11-11 05:33:11 PM
Can some lawyer please explain how a EULA on the CONSOLE can cover the game discs?  The manufacturer of my cell phone can't tell me what I can do with Angry Birds.  Toyota can't tell me that I can't sell my old tires...

What am I missing?
 
2013-11-11 05:33:37 PM
Good thing video games are stupid.
 
2013-11-11 05:37:41 PM
Easy solution: ignore the EULA and sell it to whomever you want.
 
2013-11-11 05:37:44 PM
 
2013-11-11 05:38:23 PM

the_innkeeper: Hey, cool. I'm not re-licensing the software, I'm selling the disk. The software has nothing to do with that transaction.


Thats great news, because the electronic registration you accepted when you played the game isn't gonna get transferred... so good luck selling that disk that isn't gonna work.
 
2013-11-11 05:39:33 PM

DontMakeMeComeBackThere: Can some lawyer please explain how a EULA on the CONSOLE can cover the game discs?  The manufacturer of my cell phone can't tell me what I can do with Angry Birds.  Toyota can't tell me that I can't sell my old tires...

What am I missing?


IANAL

But all the games for the PS4 end up getting licensed/certified by Sony at some point before they can actually be released as a title for the PS4, so they can dictate the terms from the top down.
 
2013-11-11 05:42:21 PM

DerpHerder: quiotu: Really?  Someone's really thinking that after Jack Tretton got a standing ovation at E3 for that very slide at their presentation 5 months ago, they're gonna turn around and backtrack on everything people liked about their system?

Are we sure this isn't the software usage terms for review copies or demo kiosks?  This would be bizarro levels of odd if the roles were reversed this close to launch day.

Its Sony.


"Fortunately we have a product for people who aren't able to get some form of connectivity, it's called Xbox 360." - Don Mattrick

Then you have Valve, who think their best bet now is creating consoles to stream Steam games on a TV, something most PCs already do.  So basically have a box that only plays Steam games on your TV... with perhaps the oddest controller recently crafted.

You don't have to like Sony, in fact I think Sony Media is directly and indirectly hurting Sony's hardware and need to separate, but you are really... REALLY dumb if you believe any company is always thinking in your best interest.

/shape the news however you want, it's still not really what you think it is
 
2013-11-11 05:47:15 PM
And this is why everyone should move over to iOS. Just one more way the tradition console makers are screwing with the consumers.
 
2013-11-11 05:50:21 PM
quiotu:

Then you have Valve, who think their best bet now is creating consoles to stream Steam games on a TV, something most PCs already do.  So basically have a box that only plays Steam games on your TV... with perhaps the oddest controller recently crafted.

Is that really something most PCs already do?
 
2013-11-11 05:51:02 PM
Meh,  still not getting an Xbone.
 
2013-11-11 05:55:53 PM
"PlayStation®3 Game Discs


Game software is licensed for home use only on authorised PlayStation®3 systems in Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Oceania only
You may not lease, rent, sublicense, publish, modify, adapt, or translate any portion of the Game Software.
You may not use the Game Software commercially, broadcast it, charge for its use, use it in a public arcade or make other public performance of it without express permission from Sony Computer Entertainment Europe
To the fullest extent permitted by law, you may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble any portion of the Game Software, or create any derivative works, or otherwise attempt to create Game Software source code from its object code.
You may not use any unauthorised, illegal, counterfeit, or modified hardware or software in connection with the Game Software to bypass, disable, or circumvent any encryption, security, or authentication mechanism for the PlayStation®3 system.
You may not resell Game Software unless expressly authorised by Sony Computer Entertainment Europe"


There's part of Sony's EULA for the PS3.  Look familiar?  Anyone remember them banning game trades in Europe in the last 8 years?
 
2013-11-11 06:02:54 PM

cameroncrazy1984: sprawl15: 4.1. All Software is licensed, not sold, which means you acquire rights to use the Software, as described in these Terms, but you do not acquire ownership of the Software. If you do not comply with these Terms, we can terminate your Software Licence which means you will no longer have the right to use the Software.

How are they going to terminate disc-based games?


You know how on the PC some games have a CD Key that must be licensed to a central database to activate the game? Same concept. Except streamlined, since the console and the database would be owned by the same people.

It's a big reason why always-online is such a big goal for console developers; if they can require, say, the Battle.net connection of D3 regardless of how you play, they could care less what you do with the discs, because they aren't what let you play the game.
 
2013-11-11 06:06:36 PM

snowshovel: And this is why everyone should move over to iOS. Just one more way the tradition console makers are screwing with the consumers.


i.imgur.com
 
2013-11-11 06:06:51 PM

viscountalpha: Non-Story/article. They haven't blocked reselling of games.

/ffs stupid people misunderstanding eulas


Stop standing in the way of a good ole' OUTRAAAAAAAAAAGE!
 
2013-11-11 06:16:56 PM
This is why I am getting an Xbox One.  Microsoft wouldn't block used games.
 
2013-11-11 06:22:20 PM
Now there's the Sony I remember from shortly after I'd started to own one, was wondering how long they could go before returning to shiatting in their own bed again.  Couldn't even wait until the release day this time eh?  I suppose considering their competition is the eye of sauron I wouldn't be too worried about quietly stripping away all the promised good-will either, what are the console users going to do, learn how to use a PC? hahahaha.
 
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