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(Washington Post)   Obama negotiating secret "Super NAFTA" treaty that will obviously not be good for Americans, much like everything else he's done   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 118
    More: Obvious, NAFTA, Americans, Obama, municipal law, Office of the United States Trade Representative, treaty  
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1598 clicks; posted to Politics » on 10 Nov 2013 at 8:13 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



118 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-11-10 04:19:31 AM  
What else do you expect from a mooslim who hates Merkia
 
2013-11-10 07:42:50 AM  
I wonder how many, if any, of the frothing commenters will ever notice that they've been used as rage puppets by their party?

A while back I looked up the whole Freedom Fries thing and the Wiki entry on it notes that the guy who started it wishes now that he hadn't. So some of them do figure it out.
 
2013-11-10 08:23:10 AM  
You'd think the NYT would at least try to conceal their Goebbelism.

Clever, huh?
 
2013-11-10 08:29:04 AM  
The pact, the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), is deliberately shrouded in secrecy, a trade deal powerful people, including President Obama, don't want you to know about. Over 130 Members of Congress have asked the White House for more transparency about the negotiations and were essentially told to go fly a kite. While most of us are in the dark about the contents of the deal, which Obama aims to seal by year end, corporate lobbyists are in the know about what it contains. Link
 
2013-11-10 08:29:45 AM  
Is this the thread where people pretend free trade is bad despite having no understanding of how it works and dream of an impossible age of protectionism in a global economy while citing the mythical ages past that never existed. And then someome will say ameros. And the thread will go full derp.

Did i miss anyone?
 
2013-11-10 08:29:47 AM  
What I find the most egregious is that because it is SUPER secret the Senate will be forced to vote on this with out being able to read the treaty.  You Know that Harry Reid and the RINOs will just rubber stamp it
 
NFA [TotalFark]
2013-11-10 08:31:33 AM  
Remember the days when the Republicans promoted NAFTA side by side with the Democrats???

Gerald Ford Promoted it
Jimmy Carter Promoted it
George HW Bush Promoted it
Bill Clinton Promoted it

ALL SIDE BY SIDE
 
2013-11-10 08:33:17 AM  

Doktor_Zhivago: Is this the thread where people pretend free trade is bad despite having no understanding of how it works and dream of an impossible age of protectionism in a global economy while citing the mythical ages past that never existed. And then someome will say ameros. And the thread will go full derp.

Did i miss anyone?


Fairly thorough job.
 
2013-11-10 08:33:44 AM  

Doktor_Zhivago: Is this the thread where people pretend free trade is bad despite having no understanding of how it works and dream of an impossible age of protectionism in a global economy while citing the mythical ages past that never existed. And then someome will say ameros. And the thread will go full derp.

Did i miss anyone?


In 1930, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, in an effort to alleviate the effects of the... Anyone? Anyone?... the Great Depression, passed the... Anyone? Anyone? The tariff bill? The Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act? Which, anyone? Raised or lowered?... raised tariffs, in an effort to collect more revenue for the federal government. Did it work? Anyone? Anyone know the effects? It did not work, and the United States sank deeper into the Great Depression.
 
2013-11-10 08:34:43 AM  
Relaxation of trade restrictions typically boosts the economies of both nations. But most of those gains redound to pad the pockets of the already wealthy and, especially of the richer nation, grind more of its working and middle classes into poverty.
 
2013-11-10 08:36:10 AM  

Cheron: What I find the most egregious is that because it is SUPER secret the Senate will be forced to vote on this with out being able to read the treaty.  You Know that Harry Reid and the RINOs will just rubber stamp it


are you suggesting that they will have to pass it in order to find out whats in it?
 
2013-11-10 08:37:49 AM  

NFA: Remember the days when the Republicans promoted NAFTA side by side with the Democrats???

Gerald Ford Promoted it
Jimmy Carter Promoted it
George HW Bush Promoted it
Bill Clinton Promoted it

ALL SIDE BY SIDE


I seem to recall the Dems being against NAFTA until Clinton was elected.
 
2013-11-10 08:38:41 AM  
no shiat. with america deep in a second great depression, gas prices over $5/gal., two wars sapping our youth and treasury, and bin laden sending weekly "fark you, you'll never find me!" tapes from his hideout in the tribal areas of pakistan... it's amazing that balrog HUSSEIN 0bambi ever won a second term.
 
2013-11-10 08:43:42 AM  

Doktor_Zhivago: Is this the thread where people pretend free trade is bad despite having no understanding of how it works and dream of an impossible age of protectionism in a global economy while citing the mythical ages past that never existed. And then someome will say ameros. And the thread will go full derp.

Did i miss anyone?


Yeah, NAFTA worked out so well for both Mexico and the US. I mean, why wouldn't Mexican people want to work for essentially slave prices so that American corporations could lay off employees to save money?
 
2013-11-10 08:44:52 AM  
Copyrights going to be extended to"forever"?

We don't need a treaty for that, we have Disney lobbyists.
 
2013-11-10 08:46:01 AM  
Hmm, if you don't call it a treaty do you have to get the Senate to approve things?
 
2013-11-10 08:51:33 AM  
None of the NAFTA globalist bullshiat has been good for us.
None of it.

I don't know anyone here in the states whose standard of living has changed for the better in the past 15 years.
 
2013-11-10 08:52:28 AM  

NFA: Remember the days when the Republicans promoted NAFTA side by side with the Democrats???

Gerald Ford Promoted it
Jimmy Carter Promoted it
George HW Bush Promoted it
Bill Clinton Promoted it

ALL SIDE BY SIDE


LIAR!!

The Democrats are nothing like the Republicans!  Sure.  They're all millionaires with close ties to corporate interests, many of whom have never worked a day in their lives.  But that doesn't mean they don't CARE about the middle class.  Anyone who says otherwise is a Randian, libertarian who just wants to turn the US into Somalia and wants you to throw your vote away!

Figured I would get that out of the way.

The most impressive thing the Democrats have done is convince the "working man" that they have their best interests at heart.  Yes the Republicans are corporatist assholes who keep their constituents focused on God, country, and the fact they they are millionaires in waiting.  The Democrats are actually worse though.  They do the exact same thing except they do it while patting you on the back.  What many Americans haven't figured out yet is that hand holds a dagger.  As long as they keep their constituents focused on abortion, drugs, gay marriage, gun control, and racism, they won't realize how horribly they're getting screwed over quietly.

U.S. Economy Lost Nearly 700,000 Jobs Because Of NAFTA, EPI Says

And now we'll have another round with TPP.  Thank you Mr. President.
 
2013-11-10 08:52:39 AM  

machoprogrammer: Doktor_Zhivago: Is this the thread where people pretend free trade is bad despite having no understanding of how it works and dream of an impossible age of protectionism in a global economy while citing the mythical ages past that never existed. And then someome will say ameros. And the thread will go full derp.

Did i miss anyone?

Yeah, NAFTA worked out so well for both Mexico and the US. I mean, why wouldn't Mexican people want to work for essentially slave prices so that American corporations could lay off employees to save money?


Well done 8/10
 
2013-11-10 08:56:17 AM  
Obama is actually a conservative on most issues, film at 11.
 
2013-11-10 08:59:42 AM  
So no one knows what's in the treaty, and so it's stupid to endorse it.

Now wait while I tell you why it'll be bad for the country.
 
2013-11-10 09:01:15 AM  
From the comments:  You can't trust our government anymore since the the death of JFK. The third fatal shot was from an assault weapon bullet which is why it exploded on hitting the President's head. It was fired from a secret service agent riding in a car behind the President a split second next to Oswalds third shot. All of this was covered up by the Warren commission.  Herpety doo-day, derpety ay.

  i73.photobucket.com
 
2013-11-10 09:02:11 AM  

AngryDragon: NFA: Remember the days when the Republicans promoted NAFTA side by side with the Democrats???

Gerald Ford Promoted it
Jimmy Carter Promoted it
George HW Bush Promoted it
Bill Clinton Promoted it

ALL SIDE BY SIDE

LIAR!!

The Democrats are nothing like the Republicans!  Sure.  They're all millionaires with close ties to corporate interests, many of whom have never worked a day in their lives.  But that doesn't mean they don't CARE about the middle class.  Anyone who says otherwise is a Randian, libertarian who just wants to turn the US into Somalia and wants you to throw your vote away!

Figured I would get that out of the way.

The most impressive thing the Democrats have done is convince the "working man" that they have their best interests at heart.  Yes the Republicans are corporatist assholes who keep their constituents focused on God, country, and the fact they they are millionaires in waiting.  The Democrats are actually worse though.  They do the exact same thing except they do it while patting you on the back.  What many Americans haven't figured out yet is that hand holds a dagger.  As long as they keep their constituents focused on abortion, drugs, gay marriage, gun control, and racism, they won't realize how horribly they're getting screwed over quietly.

U.S. Economy Lost Nearly 700,000 Jobs Because Of NAFTA, EPI Says

And now we'll have another round with TPP.  Thank you Mr. President.


My 401k disagrees.
 
2013-11-10 09:02:49 AM  
I can't really take this criticism seriously from conservatives.  You guys tried to get Mitt Romney into the White House, the king of selling out the working-class for personal profit.

Every time Obama acts like Dubya, the GOP rails about his plan to destroy America, and how we need to go back to the policies of good presidents like Dubya.
 
2013-11-10 09:03:39 AM  
Anti-Globalization screed written on a computer made in China
 
2013-11-10 09:03:43 AM  
How can the same derpers who are for a "free market" be against free trade?
 
2013-11-10 09:05:03 AM  

vygramul: So no one knows what's in the treaty, and so it's stupid to endorse it.

Now wait while I tell you why it'll be bad for the country.


The secretive nature of it is bad for the country.  I didn't like it when Big Oil went behind closed doors with Dubya's administration and drafted energy policy, and I don't like Obama's administration doing the same thing here.
 
2013-11-10 09:09:38 AM  

Uranus Is Huge!: My 401k disagrees


Wait until the fed stops buying $85B in treasuries a month.  You have a 15-30% "correction" coming.  And that doesn't help the millions out of work.  Saying "My 401k disagrees" is basically the same as "Fark you, I got mine"
 
2013-11-10 09:11:10 AM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: I can't really take this criticism seriously from conservatives.  You guys tried to get Mitt Romney into the White House, the king of selling out the working-class for personal profit.

Every time Obama acts like Dubya, the GOP rails about his plan to destroy America, and how we need to go back to the policies of good presidents like Dubya.


So you support the US being bound to treaties the terms of which are kept secret or no? Yes, we know you don't like conservatives, but what is your opinion?
 
2013-11-10 09:11:41 AM  

RockofAges: *also applies to manufacturing industry (historically) and now applies to creative / service industry (the last thing North America has left).


No one likes having to compete in a fair fight of ideas. They always want the government to intervene on their behalf so they don't have to work as hard.
 
2013-11-10 09:13:04 AM  

RockofAges: LOLWUT, people on Fark are now FOR free trade? Uhhh, you do realize that NAFTA is one of the main mechanisms by which the working and lower middle classes got raperaperaped in the first world, right?


It's not the rape of the middle class when "we" do it apparently.
 
2013-11-10 09:14:27 AM  
This ultra Top Secret treaty is terribly difficult to find information about...

...unless you have a working internet connection.

/now start releasing more information about the damn negotiations.
 
2013-11-10 09:16:02 AM  

borg: What else do you expect from a mooslim who hates Merkia



them black people can't be trusted wit nutin'!
 
2013-11-10 09:16:08 AM  

AngryDragon: Uranus Is Huge!: My 401k disagrees

Wait until the fed stops buying $85B in treasuries a month.  You have a 15-30% "correction" coming.  And that doesn't help the millions out of work.  Saying "My 401k disagrees" is basically the same as "Fark you, I got mine"


No. It's stating that my tiny retirement account tends to lose lots of it value during Republican administrations.
 
2013-11-10 09:17:44 AM  

TofuTheAlmighty: Relaxation of trade restrictions typically boosts the economies of both nations. But most of those gains redound to pad the pockets of the already wealthy and, especially of the richer nation, grind more of its working and middle classes into poverty.



well, it is all about Freedom, you know.   The Owner's Freedom, not anyone elses.
 
2013-11-10 09:18:54 AM  

Uranus Is Huge!: AngryDragon: Uranus Is Huge!: My 401k disagrees

Wait until the fed stops buying $85B in treasuries a month.  You have a 15-30% "correction" coming.  And that doesn't help the millions out of work.  Saying "My 401k disagrees" is basically the same as "Fark you, I got mine"

No. It's stating that my tiny retirement account tends to lose lots of it value during Republican administrations.


6-12 months from now that trend will be handily broken.
 
2013-11-10 09:19:02 AM  

HotIgneous Intruder: None of the NAFTA globalist bullshiat has been good for us.
None of it.

I don't know anyone here in the states whose standard of living has changed for the better in the past 15 years.



the richest 2% are doing better than ever.   course, that won't mean much to the Nation or the bottom 98%...
 
2013-11-10 09:21:00 AM  

AngryDragon: Uranus Is Huge!: AngryDragon: Uranus Is Huge!: My 401k disagrees

Wait until the fed stops buying $85B in treasuries a month.  You have a 15-30% "correction" coming.  And that doesn't help the millions out of work.  Saying "My 401k disagrees" is basically the same as "Fark you, I got mine"

No. It's stating that my tiny retirement account tends to lose lots of it value during Republican administrations.

6-12 months from now that trend will be handily broken.


You sound like you're rooting for me to lose money so that you can be right.

How very Fark Independent of you.
 
2013-11-10 09:22:10 AM  
People who are against free trade seem to fail to recognize how much more everything would cost absent free trade.

Building up trade barriers to protect a priviledged few isn't free. It costs everyone else more. Maybe there are refinements and improvements possible in the way we go about free trade and globalization, but broadly they are good for society.

/DNRTFA
 
2013-11-10 09:25:35 AM  

machoprogrammer: Yeah, NAFTA worked out so well for both Mexico and the US. I mean, why wouldn't Mexican people want to work for essentially slave prices so that American corporations could lay off employees to save money?


If by slave wages, you mean a big raise.

RockofAges: I am a third-string / second-string writer (content, ghostwriting, punditry), making a bare living from my ideas for years now. Chinese writers post that they will do 10 pieces of content for $10-20. That is because for them, that is affordable. Given the cost of living (even rural, and small) in NA, doing 10 pieces of content for $10 will not feed me, let alone house me.

Not saying I want gov't intervention as, frankly, a lot of those Chinese writers are ESL and their clients find out quickly that it may not be a good idea to cheap out. That being said, many don't care. Plus, the gov't couldn't really do anything anyways in this situation as it involves "digital creative products".


Oh no, they're outsourcing the search engine spambot jobs to China now!
 
2013-11-10 09:27:27 AM  

AngryDragon: You have a 15-30% "correction" coming.


AngryDragon: 6-12 months from now that trend will be handily broken.


You stockpile ammunition in your basement, don't you?
 
2013-11-10 09:28:40 AM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: AngryDragon: You have a 15-30% "correction" coming.

AngryDragon: 6-12 months from now that trend will be handily broken.

You stockpile ammunition in your basement, don't you?


Maybe he's trying to sell me gold coins.
 
2013-11-10 09:28:41 AM  

Uranus Is Huge!: AngryDragon: Uranus Is Huge!: AngryDragon: Uranus Is Huge!: My 401k disagrees

Wait until the fed stops buying $85B in treasuries a month.  You have a 15-30% "correction" coming.  And that doesn't help the millions out of work.  Saying "My 401k disagrees" is basically the same as "Fark you, I got mine"

No. It's stating that my tiny retirement account tends to lose lots of it value during Republican administrations.

6-12 months from now that trend will be handily broken.

You sound like you're rooting for me to lose money so that you can be right.

How very Fark Independent of you.


This is our collective problem.

The entire strategic policy of the US has been drawn down polar political lines.  We see everything as an us v them problem instead of just a problem.  Warning you that you are going to lose money isn't rooting for it, it's warning about it.   We really need to focus on what's important instead of bickering about bullshiat while we're all sold into economic servitude.

Or not.  We can do the every man for himself thing.  Some of you will be hit particularly hard, the rest of us won't really care because we're paying attention now.
 
NFA [TotalFark]
2013-11-10 09:30:26 AM  

Doktor_Zhivago: Is this the thread where people pretend free trade is bad despite having no understanding of how it works and dream of an impossible age of protectionism in a global economy while citing the mythical ages past that never existed. And then someome will say ameros. And the thread will go full derp.

Did i miss anyone?


If you're saying that sending American manufacturing jobs to Mexico, with no gain in manufacturing for America is good for the average American, then yes you're being successful if spreading misinformation.

Sure some corporations can push up their stock values by cultivating foreign markets but how does that put food on the table of the average American worker?   You can't espouse the virtues of moving American manufacturing across the border (or to Asia) and then cry about how half the nation is technically unemployed.  Because there is a link between the two.

The goal of NAFTA was to make money for American corporations while improving the economy of Mexico.  It did improve their economy but it took money out of the American economy to do it.  Go talk to the people in and around Detroit and tell them how shipping their auto manufacturing jobs across the border was so great for them and America.  Then go tell the American steel workers how losing their good paying jobs was actually better for them.   Then the hundreds of small companies that went out of business when General Motors filed bankruptcy.

Prior to the economic collapse of 2008, over 50,000 American manufacturing facilities closed down and shipped their jobs overseas.  Creating a massive trade deficit where American dollars where/are pouring out of the economy into the pockets of foreign nations and not returning.   At the same time we go deeper and deeper in debt to keep the economy afloat.   We've collapsed our tax base by losing that manufacturing and we're indirectly funding the greatest expansion of foreign militaries in world history.  So we have to spend more on our military to keep up.

We've lost manufacturing
We've dramatically increased our trade deficit
We've dramatically imbalanced the internatinal currency flow, so it flowing out of the nation
We've funded the expansion and modernization of foreign militaries
We've collapsed our tax base (through shipping jobs overseas and tax breaks for the remaining companies).
We've empowered nations which use slave labor, which cannot and should not compete with
Those now rich foreign companies and nations are now buying up American corporations and land at record rates.

"In 2010, according to the CIA Factbook, China had a "current account balance" of 272 billion dollars and that was the largest balance in the world. During the same accounting period, America had an account balance of a NEGATIVE 561 billion dollars. "

In 2012 China attempted to purchase 1.6 million acres of Idaho.They want to build a Chinese owned city right in America's heartland.  A 50 square mile chunk of China right on our soil.

What about free trade is GOOD for America?
 
2013-11-10 09:33:14 AM  
People who are against international trade really do enjoy writing great walls of text.
 
2013-11-10 09:33:49 AM  

AngryDragon: Uranus Is Huge!: AngryDragon: Uranus Is Huge!: AngryDragon: Uranus Is Huge!: My 401k disagrees

Wait until the fed stops buying $85B in treasuries a month.  You have a 15-30% "correction" coming.  And that doesn't help the millions out of work.  Saying "My 401k disagrees" is basically the same as "Fark you, I got mine"

No. It's stating that my tiny retirement account tends to lose lots of it value during Republican administrations.

6-12 months from now that trend will be handily broken.

You sound like you're rooting for me to lose money so that you can be right.

How very Fark Independent of you.

This is our collective problem.

The entire strategic policy of the US has been drawn down polar political lines.  We see everything as an us v them problem instead of just a problem.  Warning you that you are going to lose money isn't rooting for it, it's warning about it.   We really need to focus on what's important instead of bickering about bullshiat while we're all sold into economic servitude.

Or not.  We can do the every man for himself thing.  Some of you will be hit particularly hard, the rest of us won't really care because we're paying attention now.


You'll forgive if I prefer the advice of actual experts to the anonymous guy on Fark that seems to be consistently wrong.
 
2013-11-10 09:34:07 AM  

Doktor_Zhivago: machoprogrammer: Doktor_Zhivago: Is this the thread where people pretend free trade is bad despite having no understanding of how it works and dream of an impossible age of protectionism in a global economy while citing the mythical ages past that never existed. And then someome will say ameros. And the thread will go full derp.

Did i miss anyone?

Yeah, NAFTA worked out so well for both Mexico and the US. I mean, why wouldn't Mexican people want to work for essentially slave prices so that American corporations could lay off employees to save money?

Well done 8/10


Right, anyone disagree with you is a troll!

So what was good about NAFTA, other than cheap goods?
 
2013-11-10 09:36:01 AM  

machoprogrammer: Doktor_Zhivago: machoprogrammer: Doktor_Zhivago: Is this the thread where people pretend free trade is bad despite having no understanding of how it works and dream of an impossible age of protectionism in a global economy while citing the mythical ages past that never existed. And then someome will say ameros. And the thread will go full derp.

Did i miss anyone?

Yeah, NAFTA worked out so well for both Mexico and the US. I mean, why wouldn't Mexican people want to work for essentially slave prices so that American corporations could lay off employees to save money?

Well done 8/10

Right, anyone disagree with you is a troll!

So what was good about NAFTA, other than cheap goods?


What was bad other than some people having to find new jobs (which they all, by and large, did)
 
2013-11-10 09:40:29 AM  
bindlestiff2600:

are you suggesting that they will have to pass it in order to find out whats in it?

Came to say this.

Leaving happy.
 
2013-11-10 09:40:50 AM  
The TPP is a disaster and I pray Obama vetoes it. It's a trade agreement that is 1 part trade, 20 parts expanding corporate rights. Anyone remember SOPA? Guess what, it's in there. The only person pointing out how bad this agreement is is, as usual, Elizabeth Warren.
 
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