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(The New York Times)   How hipsters ruined Paris, gentrifying red-light district into yet another faux-Brooklyn nabe   (nytimes.com) divider line 60
    More: Ironic  
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12662 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Nov 2013 at 9:01 AM (23 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-10 08:33:46 AM
I can't wait to read about how Detroit, which just elected a white mayor, will be destroyed by an influx of white 20 something hipsters
 
2013-11-10 09:02:58 AM
neighb ?
 
2013-11-10 09:02:59 AM

faux-Brooklyn nabe


That's a groinpunchin'.

*groinpunches nabemitter*
 
2013-11-10 09:06:40 AM
Nabe?

A Japanese hot-pot?
 
2013-11-10 09:07:20 AM
Where do you get your whores and heroin now?
 
2013-11-10 09:11:30 AM
It's funny how the places that some deem to be "hipster" were only so because the original inhabitants could not afford a better lifestyle for themselves, yet as the hipsters arrive costs end up going up for everything?

Supply and Demand irony?
 
2013-11-10 09:20:51 AM
Eh, Paris is the birthplace of hipsters, so what else is new?
 
2013-11-10 09:21:40 AM
Cocktail bars replacing dry cleaners? Damn those hipsters to hell!
 
2013-11-10 09:23:01 AM
So, a hipster couple moves to a seedy neighborhood and get pissed off when it goes "mainstream." Sounds like they are part of the problem.
 
2013-11-10 09:23:29 AM
If we clean up the bad parts of town, where are all the poor people going to live? We NEED those slums.
 
2013-11-10 09:24:23 AM

LegacyDL: yet as the hipsters arrive costs end up going up for everything?


This is because the original inhabitants were truly poor artists (hipsters). They were followed by upper middle class wannabes who have their parent's wealth at their disposal. The third wave are working people (yuppies) who are priced out of more desirable neighborhoods but encouraged by the local demographics (starving artists and rich white kids). They move in and adopt the look and feel of the original inhabitants. So if you walk into the local "dive" bar (which is anything but by now) you would have a hard time distinguishing between an artist who specializes in post recessionary impressionism, a system admin for a Fixed Income broker dealer, and a "professional blogger" from Indiana who wouldn't be able to afford ramen without a monthly allowance from the Midwest.
 
2013-11-10 09:26:56 AM

LegacyDL: It's funny how the places that some deem to be "hipster" were only so because the original inhabitants could not afford a better lifestyle for themselves, yet as the hipsters arrive costs end up going up for everything?

Supply and Demand irony?


That sounds like hipster talk..
 
2013-11-10 09:28:48 AM
Article writer is correct. People from foreign countries should have their lives stuck at a particular time period that the average rich liberal finds interesting. People in disadvantage neighborhoods shouldn't be allowed to bend to market forces to increase their standard of living. They themselves shouldn't be allowed bring in elements from foreign cultures that they find interesting, lest they ruin the ambiance. Every Frenchmen should eat nothing but baguettes and quiche, and Italians should be snarfing down pasta*. This should all be done so that liberal writers (who themselves write for large multinational newspapers that are displacing local small-town newspapers) can feel the zeitgeist of old books and movies they read.

* Americans get to have their ethnic eating places, however, because people who don't eat Thai food from food trucks must be racist gun clingers, so we need a way to set ourselves apart from the rift-raft.
 
2013-11-10 09:30:00 AM
having to cross the pond to hate upon is the epitome.
 
2013-11-10 09:30:08 AM
And if you ask how a liberal writer can read a movie, well, you just don't understand art, honey.
 
2013-11-10 09:34:42 AM
What's a nabe?  No seriously.
 
2013-11-10 09:36:23 AM

zeroman987: So, a hipster couple moves to a seedy neighborhood and get pissed off when it goes "mainstream." Sounds like they are part of the problem.


That's a bingo. These sentences:

"When my wife and I first moved here in 2011, I wasn't sure what to make of living in the middle of a functioning red-light district. Our neighborhood, though safe and well on its way to gentrification, remained funky in the original sense of the term."

...are all I needed to read. You spend two years in an admittedly already gentrified neighborhood and bemoan the loss of something you read about in books. Get over it. Things always change you mewling quim.

It is getting to the point that I can almost universally discount any opinion that uses the word hipster.
 
2013-11-10 09:37:52 AM
Paris would be a much more pleasant city without all the Frenchmen nancying about in it.
 
2013-11-10 09:38:16 AM

GDubDub: What's a nabe?  No seriously.


It's an area where people live that they feel to be a related community. The more gregarious will typically know a few of their nabors.

www.gannett-cdn.com
 
2013-11-10 09:45:07 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: GDubDub: What's a nabe?  No seriously.

It's an area where people live that they feel to be a related community. The more gregarious will typically know a few of their nabors.

[www.gannett-cdn.com image 534x712]


Oh, geez... I was looking too deep.

I'm gonna have to go with the guy who wants to groinpunch subby then.  I'm going to put subby right up there with people who say "cray-cray" and add "izzle" to words.
 
2013-11-10 09:46:13 AM
Hipsters; is there anything they can't ruin?
 
2013-11-10 09:49:09 AM
Oh wonderful, another American writer with an unrealistic and romanticized take on Paris.  Someone else who wants to turn a constantly-mutating city of 2.25 million into some kind of snow globe.

First, Pigalle isn't hipster in the slightest.  If anything, it's still pretty shabby.  If you really want a taste of the Parisian bourgeois bohémien scene, you need to be further southeast, in the 10th, 11th, 19th, and 20th.  Rue Sainte-Marthe, Oberkampf/Jean-Pierre Timbaud, and especially along the Canal Saint-Martin, all that.

Second, I'm going ahead and saying that this guy had never lived in Pigalle until recently, because the Pigalle he so poetically pines for ... was a pretty unpleasant and hostile place.  In a lot of ways it farkin' sucked, and for a while there the only real reason I stayed was because of the combination of low rent and a short commute.  It wasn't like it is in the banlieue nowadays (e.g. Saint-Denis, where, statistically speaking, you are more likely to be stabbed than anywhere else in France, or the north end of Marseille which is like Mad Max in public housing), but it sure as hell wasn't the Paris you saw in old movies.  "Pig Alley" might have been fun if you were a horny young guy with a pocketful of cash to spend, but actually living there meant dealing with hookers, drug dealers, pickpockets, gypsy beggars, drunks, homeless people, hawkers, et cetera ad nauseam, on a daily basis.

It was especially bad if you were male, and doubly so if you were wearing a suit and tie or otherwise smartly dressed, because you were a potential "client" to everyone and the more you looked like you had money the harder they'd try to wrench it out of you.  It didn't matter if you were pushing a stroller or carrying home your groceries, and therefore visibly local; I've had hawkers follow me for two blocks, trying to get me to come in, have a drink, and shove a few francs into a g-string or two, once when I was carrying a shopping bag full of meat and frozen food!  I learned so many different ways to tell people to fark off.

It started to change ten, maybe fifteen years ago when the police finally grew a metaphorical pair and started to crack down on the hawkers, beggars, corner hookers, drug dealers, and clip shops.  There are still a lot of bars, strip clubs, and drunken hoboes, but you can walk down the street without having someone grab your arm and try to pull you into a grind parlor.  That's worth putting up with a few overpriced boutiques and douche-magnet bars, I think.
 
2013-11-10 09:52:38 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: If we clean up the bad parts of town, where are all the poor people going to live? We NEED those slums.


Move 'em right next door to the mayor's home. Let the politicians get a good whiff of what's REALLY going on in the city, right in their front and back yards.

But, to your point....... Years back, they started tearing down the projects in Chicago (except for Lathrope Homes, which is more for families that're right on the borderline of getting back to middle class life). As one can imagine, they were pretty much the epicenters of crime in the city (gangs, drugs, people hammering down walls to expand their drug dens, stealing piping to sell, crackheads, using ambulances for target practice, etc.), and once they were torn down, people collectively thought "good, fark 'em". The overall thought was that it'd drive out the gangs, drugs, etc.
Fast forward to 2008 up to now: totally opposite effect. All tearing down the projects did was scatter the welfare class and the gangbangers to every which end of the city, rather than having them more or less boxed into the projects. Hey, does cost taxpayer dollars to keep them there, but it's worth it. I'd rather that than their dumbass red-light camera program.

Anywho, just saying you're right.
 
2013-11-10 09:53:16 AM

GDubDub: What's a nabe?  No seriously.


You gyre and gimble in it. Sheesh.

Or is that wabe?
 
2013-11-10 10:15:11 AM

groppet: Where do you get your whores and heroin now?


Craigsliste.
 
2013-11-10 10:20:01 AM

Robo Beat: Oh wonderful, another American writer with an unrealistic and romanticized take on Paris.  Someone else who wants to turn a constantly-mutating city of 2.25 million into some kind of snow globe.

First, Pigalle isn't hipster in the slightest.  If anything, it's still pretty shabby.  If you really want a taste of the Parisian bourgeois bohémien scene, you need to be further southeast, in the 10th, 11th, 19th, and 20th.  Rue Sainte-Marthe, Oberkampf/Jean-Pierre Timbaud, and especially along the Canal Saint-Martin, all that.

Second, I'm going ahead and saying that this guy had never lived in Pigalle until recently, because the Pigalle he so poetically pines for ... was a pretty unpleasant and hostile place.  In a lot of ways it farkin' sucked, and for a while there the only real reason I stayed was because of the combination of low rent and a short commute.  It wasn't like it is in the banlieue nowadays (e.g. Saint-Denis, where, statistically speaking, you are more likely to be stabbed than anywhere else in France, or the north end of Marseille which is like Mad Max in public housing), but it sure as hell wasn't the Paris you saw in old movies.  "Pig Alley" might have been fun if you were a horny young guy with a pocketful of cash to spend, but actually living there meant dealing with hookers, drug dealers, pickpockets, gypsy beggars, drunks, homeless people, hawkers, et cetera ad nauseam, on a daily basis.

It was especially bad if you were male, and doubly so if you were wearing a suit and tie or otherwise smartly dressed, because you were a potential "client" to everyone and the more you looked like you had money the harder they'd try to wrench it out of you.  It didn't matter if you were pushing a stroller or carrying home your groceries, and therefore visibly local; I've had hawkers follow me for two blocks, trying to get me to come in, have a drink, and shove a few francs into a g-string or two, once when I was carrying a shopping bag full of meat and frozen foo ...


When I was researching my trip to Paris I read somewhere that a lot of tourist men would go into the strip joints, have a drink with a stripper, then presented with a bill for hundreds of Euros and the sudden appearance of threatening men to make you pay. Was made to understand by the articles I read that you should never really go into any of the strip joints.

And that Moulin Rouge is a bigger tourist trap ripoff that you'd expect. Paris is kind of weird because, though my trips there were trouble free, I didn't have issues with pickpockets, missed the stringmen, didn't have the ring scam run on me, and never encountered the pickpocketing group of girls on the Metro. I just kept aware of my surroundings and wasn't flashing expensive stuff in public. I tried to just fit in as best I could. Liked staying in the 15th. Arr.
 
2013-11-10 10:30:46 AM
Whatever. NYT reading, middlebrow Americans have been ruining Paris for the last hundred years.

There are hoards of them coming ever year thinking they are Ernest-farking-Hemingway. There's an entire sub-genre arthouse film devoted to that shiat. Not to mention the bookshelves of pompous name-dropping drivel of which TFA is a fine example. Alexandre Dumas, Victor Hugo, Gustave Moreau and Pierre-Auguste Renoir, Edgar Degas,(good to see that college degree finally paying off), the Situationists, Guy Debord, Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec, and to finish off with a flourish (and show that we can do more than just modernism) Blaise Pascal. Oh my.

And oh look, When my wife and I first moved here in 2011... You're part of the problem. farking yuppie hacks. Worse than hipsters.
 
2013-11-10 10:34:22 AM

Eddie Adams from Torrance: groppet: Where do you get your whores and heroin now?

Craigsliste.


lol
 
2013-11-10 10:35:05 AM
This article, translated: Urban neighborhoods have never undergone demographic shifts before. Everything in the world should be preserved in the exact way I imagine it to slake my insatiable nostalgia. Uh, hipsters.
 
2013-11-10 10:35:11 AM

zeroman987: So, a hipster couple moves to a seedy neighborhood and get pissed off when it goes "mainstream." Sounds like they are part of the problem.


Nothing more to be said. Move along folks.
 
2013-11-10 10:40:19 AM

skinink: When I was researching my trip to Paris I read somewhere that a lot of tourist men would go into the strip joints, have a drink with a stripper, then presented with a bill for hundreds of Euros and the sudden appearance of threatening men to make you pay. Was made to understand by the articles I read that you should never really go into any of the strip joints.

And that Moulin Rouge is a bigger tourist trap ripoff that you'd expect. Paris is kind of weird because, though my trips there were trouble free, I didn't have issues with pickpockets, missed the stringmen, didn't have the ring scam run on me, and never encountered the pickpocketing group of girls on the Metro. I just kept aware of my surroundings and wasn't flashing expensive stuff in public. I tried to just fit in as best I could. Liked staying in the 15th. Arr.



Yeah, bars like those are what's called a "clip joint."  They're all over the place in Soho, London; they're not entirely illegal there because there's nothing that says there has to be an upper limit to the price of a drink, or that they have to tell you the price beforehand if you don't ask for it.  I've heard stories about guys refusing to pay and then being frogmarched to an ATM by a pair of bouncers.  There are indeed legitimate skin bars in Paris, some quite classy (insofar as a strip club can so be), but none of them are in Pigalle.  The cops have cracked down on that in recent years, but I'm sure it still happens, particularly to those who don't speak French.

A lot of Montmartre butte is indeed a tourist trap, and this is coming from someone who's lived in the area for years and has a strong emotional attachment to it.  Many of the scams you mention are quite common in tourist-heavy areas but pretty much unknown elsewhere (such as the 15ème); I work near Place de l'Étoile where the Arc de Triomphe is, and I see the ring trick in particular pretty often.  Every now and again one will try it on me, and I feel no shame in insulting them to their faces.  You'd think seeing a guy wearing a suit and tie and carrying a brief

The pickpocketing gypsy kids (yes, they are always gypsies) only work certain sections of the Métro near touristy shiat; the 12 line between Pigalle and Lamarck is rife with them, as is the 6 line near the Eiffel Tower.  They're always children doing the picking because French criminal law limits what you can prosecute minors for without their parents' consent, which as you might imagine is not particularly forthcoming from the gypsies.  But if you recognize them for what they are they're pretty easy to defend against.  I give them a stare which I like to think says, "I am watching you; I know who you are and what you're doing and you had better move on to someone else because I will pick you up and throw you onto the tracks if you fark with me."  I wouldn't actually do that, mind you, but they don't necessarily know that.  Apart from that, you learn to look through people really quickly, which I find works very well with the so-called "charity muggers" that are always on the sidewalks outside of department stores.

But as you say, it's all about paying attention to your surroundings and being cool, which really isn't any different than the way it is in any other big city.
 
2013-11-10 10:51:25 AM

Robo Beat: Oh wonderful, another American writer with an unrealistic and romanticized take on Paris.  Someone else who wants to turn a constantly-mutating city of 2.25 million into some kind of snow globe.

First, Pigalle isn't hipster in the slightest.  If anything, it's still pretty shabby.  If you really want a taste of the Parisian bourgeois bohémien scene, you need to be further southeast, in the 10th, 11th, 19th, and 20th.  Rue Sainte-Marthe, Oberkampf/Jean-Pierre Timbaud, and especially along the Canal Saint-Martin, all that.

Second, I'm going ahead and saying that this guy had never lived in Pigalle until recently, because the Pigalle he so poetically pines for ... was a pretty unpleasant and hostile place.  In a lot of ways it farkin' sucked, and for a while there the only real reason I stayed was because of the combination of low rent and a short commute.  It wasn't like it is in the banlieue nowadays (e.g. Saint-Denis, where, statistically speaking, you are more likely to be stabbed than anywhere else in France, or the north end of Marseille which is like Mad Max in public housing), but it sure as hell wasn't the Paris you saw in old movies.  "Pig Alley" might have been fun if you were a horny young guy with a pocketful of cash to spend, but actually living there meant dealing with hookers, drug dealers, pickpockets, gypsy beggars, drunks, homeless people, hawkers, et cetera ad nauseam, on a daily basis.

It was especially bad if you were male, and doubly so if you were wearing a suit and tie or otherwise smartly dressed, because you were a potential "client" to everyone and the more you looked like you had money the harder they'd try to wrench it out of you.  It didn't matter if you were pushing a stroller or carrying home your groceries, and therefore visibly local; I've had hawkers follow me for two blocks, trying to get me to come in, have a drink, and shove a few francs into a g-string or two, once when I was carrying a shopping bag full of meat and frozen foo ...


Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

I've seen Pigalle intermittently over the course of visiting Paris for 10 years. Its where I stayed on my first visit and its one of my favorite neighborhoods. If anything its gotten better, for the reasons you note. Its fundamental character is still there.

The weird thing is it seems to me Pigalle cleaned up well before this guy moved there two years ago, so I don't know what he's talking about, and I suspect he doesn't either.
 
2013-11-10 11:00:27 AM

H31N0US: LegacyDL: yet as the hipsters arrive costs end up going up for everything?

This is because the original inhabitants were truly poor artists (hipsters). They were followed by upper middle class wannabes who have their parent's wealth at their disposal. The third wave are working people (yuppies) who are priced out of more desirable neighborhoods but encouraged by the local demographics (starving artists and rich white kids). They move in and adopt the look and feel of the original inhabitants. So if you walk into the local "dive" bar (which is anything but by now) you would have a hard time distinguishing between an artist who specializes in post recessionary impressionism, a system admin for a Fixed Income broker dealer, and a "professional blogger" from Indiana who wouldn't be able to afford ramen without a monthly allowance from the Midwest.


This!

I often wonder if we are paying the losers to go else where.
 
2013-11-10 11:06:47 AM
Stopped reading when I realized that the writer was a hipster douche bag complaining about hipster douche bags.
 
2013-11-10 11:07:26 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: If we clean up the bad parts of town, where are all the poor people going to live? We NEED those slums.


The suburbs. It's already happening. 12 people living in a shoddlily built vinyl-sided home.
 
2013-11-10 11:13:54 AM

Rozinante: AverageAmericanGuy: If we clean up the bad parts of town, where are all the poor people going to live? We NEED those slums.

The suburbs. It's already happening. 12 people living in a shoddlily built vinyl-sided home.


More poor already live in the suburbs.  Death Wish VI will be set in a cul-de-sac behind a strip mall.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2013/0911/Face-of-US-poverty-Th es e-days-more-poor-live-in-suburbs-than-in-cities
 
2013-11-10 11:22:56 AM
This old-timer was there way back in 2011, so he has the right too complain. It was the riff-raff who moved there in 2012 that ruined everything.
 
2013-11-10 11:34:05 AM
TFA translated: "I liked Paris, back before it got all popular."

"I stared into my drink, there he was, by God-a pasty, spam-eating, PBR-ravaged, disease-ridden caricature...like an awful cartoon version of an old snapshot in some once-proud mother's family photo album. It was the face I'd been biatching about this whole time-and it was, of course, my own."
 
2013-11-10 11:35:30 AM

zimbomba63: Stopped reading when I realized that the writer was a hipster douche bag complaining about hipster douche bags.


You didn't notice in the headline?

Or you had to check, out of a morbid sense of curiousity?
 
2013-11-10 11:41:35 AM

mikemoto: I can't wait to read about how Detroit, which just elected a white mayor, will be destroyed by an influx of white 20 something hipsters


H31N0US: LegacyDL: yet as the hipsters arrive costs end up going up for everything?

This is because the original inhabitants were truly poor artists (hipsters). They were followed by upper middle class wannabes who have their parent's wealth at their disposal. The third wave are working people (yuppies) who are priced out of more desirable neighborhoods but encouraged by the local demographics (starving artists and rich white kids). They move in and adopt the look and feel of the original inhabitants. So if you walk into the local "dive" bar (which is anything but by now) you would have a hard time distinguishing between an artist who specializes in post recessionary impressionism, a system admin for a Fixed Income broker dealer, and a "professional blogger" from Indiana who wouldn't be able to afford ramen without a monthly allowance from the Midwest.


So, what I am hearing is that gentrification actually helps make shiatty places less shiatty, if annoyingly pretentious.

But what's the hidden cost?  The poor people being hedged out of the slums and ruining other places?  DO they ruin other places?

I'm just asking questions.
 
2013-11-10 11:53:16 AM

groppet: Where do you get your whores and heroin now?


South Jersey shore towns.
 
2013-11-10 11:55:26 AM
the banal globalization of hipster good taste, the same pleasant and invisible force that puts kale frittata, steel-cut oats and burrata salad on brunch tables from Stockholm to San Francisco.
Only a New York Times shiathead would refer to a kale anything as good taste
 
2013-11-10 12:08:56 PM
>Moves to neighborhood because it's poor
>Complains that all these yuppies moving to the neighborhood because it's poor are making it less cool
 
2013-11-10 12:11:03 PM
Stopped reading right here: "When my wife and I first moved here in 2011"

You're part of the problem, douche. You have no right to complain about the shiat you participated in. I bet if he had moved there 10 years ago he would have been complaining to the police about the crime and demanding they do something about it.
 
2013-11-10 12:18:47 PM

zimbomba63: Stopped reading when I realized that the writer was a hipster douche bag complaining about hipster douche bags.


I gave up at "palimpsest ".

/felonious showboating of vocabulary.
//15 yards
 
2013-11-10 12:29:00 PM

Rapmaster2000: Rozinante: AverageAmericanGuy: If we clean up the bad parts of town, where are all the poor people going to live? We NEED those slums.

The suburbs. It's already happening. 12 people living in a shoddlily built vinyl-sided home.

More poor already live in the suburbs.  Death Wish VI will be set in a cul-de-sac behind a strip mall.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2013/0911/Face-of-US-poverty-Th es e-days-more-poor-live-in-suburbs-than-in-cities


As far as I can tell, they all live in South Gwinnett County now. In 1960s ranch houses, with six cars/pickups parked on the front lawn. I very much enjoy the white flighters complaining about it, as they created those 'burbs originally by moving out of town, then moved even FARTHER out, leaving the poor people to take over after they were priced out of a gentrifying intown Atlanta. Eventually, the white flight will get so far from Atlanta that they'll just turn around and commute to Charlotte and Chattanooga.

/If you live in Buford, Cumming or Suwanee, don't tell people when you're traveling that you're from Atlanta.
 
2013-11-10 12:38:59 PM

LegacyDL: It's funny how the places that some deem to be "hipster" were only so because the original inhabitants could not afford a better lifestyle for themselves, yet as the hipsters arrive costs end up going up for everything?

Supply and Demand irony?


Eh, gentrification is not really a new or exciting thing.
 
2013-11-10 12:47:33 PM
The author of the article can eat a bowl of lightly sautéed dicks with a half strawberry as garnish, whilst ruffling his ironic beard and sardonically watching an old video of Josephine Baker, who was cool before the word cool meant cool.
 
2013-11-10 01:01:17 PM

Invincible Sky Lizard: The author of the article can eat a bowl of lightly sautéed dicks with a half strawberry as garnish, whilst ruffling his ironic beard and sardonically watching an old video of Josephine Baker, who was cool before the word cool meant cool.


Fun Fact: at Tuileries Métro station, there's a larger-than-life mural of Joséphine Baker doing the famous topless banana dance.  Her boobies are the size of a truck tire.
 
2013-11-10 01:07:53 PM
Pigalle is being destroyed? Oh no, where will I be beaten up and ripped off now?
 
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