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(Daily Mail)   'Happiness is more important than a long life': Judge rules that a pensioner who 'hates' her care home can return to her house, even though it might cut her life short   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 54
    More: Hero, Judges' Rules, landmark ruling, standards of care, right to lives, quality of life, supreme court justices, home, community health  
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4550 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Nov 2013 at 8:15 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-08 08:18:14 PM  
I hate pictures of elderly folks dying.
 
2013-11-08 08:19:35 PM  

Delay: I hate pictures of elderly folks dying.

Break all the mirrors in your house.

 
2013-11-08 08:21:42 PM  
Why is that a court case in the first place?! You shouldn't have to ask a judge for permission to move out of an old folks home.
 
2013-11-08 08:22:00 PM  

Delay: I hate pictures of elderly folks dying.


And yet only a very few places have the stones to allow "assisted dying" as Terry Pratchett likes to phrase it in speeches.

It's pathetic that your cat gets better end of life treatment than your parents by law.
 
2013-11-08 08:23:29 PM  
But Mr Justice Peter Jackson said that the prolongation of life cannot always be justified 'at the cost of happiness.'


There's a LOTR / Hobbit reference here somewhere
 
2013-11-08 08:23:38 PM  
I thought the constitution enumerated life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. In that order.

This will be over turned in the SCOTUS. We'll force this freedom hating crone to live. The founding fathers demand it.
 
2013-11-08 08:23:54 PM  
When republicans do it, it is mercy but when the democrats do it, it is death panels.
 
2013-11-08 08:26:14 PM  

maq0r: But Mr Justice Peter Jackson said that the prolongation of life cannot always be justified 'at the cost of happiness.'


There's a LOTR / Hobbit reference here somewhere


Elves are not a happy lot.
 
2013-11-08 08:27:55 PM  
Terrible, terrible freedom!
 
2013-11-08 08:28:24 PM  

bittermang: I thought the constitution enumerated life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. In that order.

This will be over turned in the SCOTUS. We'll force this freedom hating crone to live. The founding fathers demand it.


I am pretty sure this happened in the UK
 
2013-11-08 08:29:45 PM  
Good on the judge. People should be able to die with dignity. Having a shorter life at home is probably better than being kept alive by medications in a "care" home. The government needs to have a serious discussion on end of life care. There is no quality of life left when your loved one is a bed ridden zombie. Also as a side note, I'll just say now that I did not read the article, so I have no idea this particular persons circumstances.
 
2013-11-08 08:30:46 PM  
By the time you are old, your life is already over.

It doesn't matter what happens to you then.
 
2013-11-08 08:32:53 PM  
idonthaveaproblemwiththis.png
 
2013-11-08 08:34:50 PM  

Tachypnea: Good on the judge. People should be able to die with dignity. Having a shorter life at home is probably better than being kept alive by medications in a "care" home. The government needs to have a serious discussion on end of life care. There is no quality of life left when your loved one is a bed ridden zombie. Also as a side note, I'll just say now that I did not read the article, so I have no idea this particular persons circumstances.


In-home hospice visits, it's the best way to go out if you can't manage something spectacular like going over Niagara falls in a rubber dinghy.

My grandma went with hospice and a morphine pump where she controlled the button, so she got to choose when she went out, but could also be lucid for visitors if she wanted.
 
2013-11-08 08:39:16 PM  
After the horror of having my mom keel over and die with no warning (brain cancer, no symptoms), my dad told us that if anything happens to him and the doctors say there's no hope, just pull the plug and let him go.
 
2013-11-08 08:40:39 PM  

Bonzo_1116: Tachypnea: Good on the judge. People should be able to die with dignity. Having a shorter life at home is probably better than being kept alive by medications in a "care" home. The government needs to have a serious discussion on end of life care. There is no quality of life left when your loved one is a bed ridden zombie. Also as a side note, I'll just say now that I did not read the article, so I have no idea this particular persons circumstances.

In-home hospice visits, it's the best way to go out if you can't manage something spectacular like going over Niagara falls in a rubber dinghy.

My grandma went with hospice and a morphine pump where she controlled the button, so she got to choose when she went out, but could also be lucid for visitors if she wanted.


I've had good experiences with hospices, but most of the so called "nursing homes" in my area are staffed by people who have no idea what they are doing. Being confined to a bed while you piss and crap yourself all while being kept alive by pharmaceuticles is inhumane in my opinion.
 
2013-11-08 08:42:48 PM  

LoneVVolf: Why is that a court case in the first place?! You shouldn't have to ask a judge for permission to move out of an old folks home.


This.
 
2013-11-08 08:43:43 PM  

Ronin_S: After the horror of having my mom keel over and die with no warning (brain cancer, no symptoms), my dad told us that if anything happens to him and the doctors say there's no hope, just pull the plug and let him go.


My grandad had dementia towards the end.  I'm not looking forward to going through that with my own father.  As someone with an intellectual career, as soon as it looks like my faculties are deteriorating, I'm checking out.

Of course, I say that now while I'm still young and healthy.  Saying it and doing it are completely different circumstances.  It's the difference between looking at the diving board from the pool and looking at the pool from the diving board.
 
2013-11-08 08:47:03 PM  
Begun, the death panels have.

/and it only took a month!
 
2013-11-08 08:57:24 PM  

Bondith: Ronin_S: After the horror of having my mom keel over and die with no warning (brain cancer, no symptoms), my dad told us that if anything happens to him and the doctors say there's no hope, just pull the plug and let him go.

My grandad had dementia towards the end.  I'm not looking forward to going through that with my own father.  As someone with an intellectual career, as soon as it looks like my faculties are deteriorating, I'm checking out.

Of course, I say that now while I'm still young and healthy.  Saying it and doing it are completely different circumstances.  It's the difference between looking at the diving board from the pool and looking at the pool from the diving board.


You should watch "Choosing to Die"

It's on youtube.
 
2013-11-08 09:03:50 PM  

Tachypnea: Bonzo_1116: Tachypnea: Good on the judge. People should be able to die with dignity. Having a shorter life at home is probably better than being kept alive by medications in a "care" home. The government needs to have a serious discussion on end of life care. There is no quality of life left when your loved one is a bed ridden zombie. Also as a side note, I'll just say now that I did not read the article, so I have no idea this particular persons circumstances.

In-home hospice visits, it's the best way to go out if you can't manage something spectacular like going over Niagara falls in a rubber dinghy.

My grandma went with hospice and a morphine pump where she controlled the button, so she got to choose when she went out, but could also be lucid for visitors if she wanted.

I've had good experiences with hospices, but most of the so called "nursing homes" in my area are staffed by people who have no idea what they are doing. Being confined to a bed while you piss and crap yourself all while being kept alive by pharmaceuticles is inhumane in my opinion.


/Pharmaceuticles.
//Pharmaceuticles.
///Pharmaceuticles.
////Pharmaceuticles
//PHARMACEUTICLES.


-snicker-
 
2013-11-08 09:06:54 PM  

1-phenylpropan-2-amine: Tachypnea: Bonzo_1116: Tachypnea: Good on the judge. People should be able to die with dignity. Having a shorter life at home is probably better than being kept alive by medications in a "care" home. The government needs to have a serious discussion on end of life care. There is no quality of life left when your loved one is a bed ridden zombie. Also as a side note, I'll just say now that I did not read the article, so I have no idea this particular persons circumstances.

In-home hospice visits, it's the best way to go out if you can't manage something spectacular like going over Niagara falls in a rubber dinghy.

My grandma went with hospice and a morphine pump where she controlled the button, so she got to choose when she went out, but could also be lucid for visitors if she wanted.

I've had good experiences with hospices, but most of the so called "nursing homes" in my area are staffed by people who have no idea what they are doing. Being confined to a bed while you piss and crap yourself all while being kept alive by pharmaceuticles is inhumane in my opinion.

/Pharmaceuticles.
//Pharmaceuticles.
///Pharmaceuticles.
////Pharmaceuticles
//PHARMACEUTICLES.

-snicker-


Touche. They are very similar to neuticles. I also blame my phone and everyone but myself.
 
2013-11-08 09:08:23 PM  
Life isn't a game. You don't get extra points for living longer. Death is inevitable and survival is impossible.
 
2013-11-08 09:16:48 PM  

Ambivalence: Life isn't a game. You don't get extra points for living longer. Death is inevitable and survival is impossible.


You don't get extra points for living longer, but nursing homes get more money from you if you do!
 
2013-11-08 09:17:37 PM  
A "quality life' is an oxymoron.
 
2013-11-08 09:18:42 PM  

Tachypnea: Bonzo_1116: Tachypnea: Good on the judge. People should be able to die with dignity. Having a shorter life at home is probably better than being kept alive by medications in a "care" home. The government needs to have a serious discussion on end of life care. There is no quality of life left when your loved one is a bed ridden zombie. Also as a side note, I'll just say now that I did not read the article, so I have no idea this particular persons circumstances.

In-home hospice visits, it's the best way to go out if you can't manage something spectacular like going over Niagara falls in a rubber dinghy.

My grandma went with hospice and a morphine pump where she controlled the button, so she got to choose when she went out, but could also be lucid for visitors if she wanted.

I've had good experiences with hospices, but most of the so called "nursing homes" in my area are staffed by people who have no idea what they are doing. Being confined to a bed while you piss and crap yourself all while being kept alive by pharmaceuticles is inhumane in my opinion.


This
/ My experience with hospice has been OK:  they were most helpful after my friend passed as they took care of the body and all the paperwork when none of us were remotely capable of dealing with it
 
2013-11-08 09:19:28 PM  
My dad would have loved to die in his own bed at home.

Instead he died of a blood clot in the nursing home.

Cos the doctor took him off all medications.

Cos he was suffering from hospital dementia.

Cos the hospital didn't take proper care of him after the operation and sent him back to the nursing home too soon.

He was there to get a hip replacement.

He had to do this cos he broke his hip at the nursing home trying to get to the washroom at night.

He was trying to do it himself because the nursing home only had one staff for 2 wings at night so if he called for help it would take forever to get someone.

My mom is going to get the opportunity to die at home in her own bed.
 
2013-11-08 09:19:45 PM  

Tachypnea: 1-phenylpropan-2-amine: Tachypnea: Bonzo_1116: Tachypnea: Good on the judge. People should be able to die with dignity. Having a shorter life at home is probably better than being kept alive by medications in a "care" home. The government needs to have a serious discussion on end of life care. There is no quality of life left when your loved one is a bed ridden zombie. Also as a side note, I'll just say now that I did not read the article, so I have no idea this particular persons circumstances.

In-home hospice visits, it's the best way to go out if you can't manage something spectacular like going over Niagara falls in a rubber dinghy.

My grandma went with hospice and a morphine pump where she controlled the button, so she got to choose when she went out, but could also be lucid for visitors if she wanted.

I've had good experiences with hospices, but most of the so called "nursing homes" in my area are staffed by people who have no idea what they are doing. Being confined to a bed while you piss and crap yourself all while being kept alive by pharmaceuticles is inhumane in my opinion.

/Pharmaceuticles.
//Pharmaceuticles.
///Pharmaceuticles.
////Pharmaceuticles
//PHARMACEUTICLES.

-snicker-

Touche. They are very similar to neuticles. I also blame my phone and everyone but myself.


For the dignified death you deserve.
 
2013-11-08 09:19:50 PM  

Bondith: It's the difference between looking at the diving board from the pool and looking at the pool from the diving board.


I like this analogy, sir.
 
2013-11-08 09:21:10 PM  
PS fark nursing homes, fark them in the ass.
 
2013-11-08 09:53:59 PM  
There was an article a while back about a 'nursing' home that let the residents have whatever they wanted to be happy; booze, chocolate, what have you. Pretty much the same idea this judge has; let people be where they want, don't worry about 'prolonging life' if the quality suffers.

I am very hopeful when (if) I'm 60+, 70+, and things go downhill, I'll still have the physical fortitude to 'nip off and shoot myself'... (bonus points for the reference).
 
2013-11-08 09:54:27 PM  
I use similar logic to justify eating only candy for all my meals.

/no, but good for the judge
 
2013-11-08 09:56:33 PM  
Good for her and good for the judge.  It's HER choice, not the government's place to decide if she can live in her own home.  She's not a danger to anyone else.
 
2013-11-08 09:57:19 PM  
Having watched my grandparent's generation and now my parents generation have to go through this I say more power to being able to be at home provided the person is with help at least able to take care of themselves.  Senility and Alzheimer's really can take a toll, and the number of visits that the family or a home care worker can make must be weighed into the equation.

My great aunt, a wonderful independent lady into her mid 90's, finally just became a danger to those around her by forgetting to turn off burners or leaving candles burning, and to herself by having rancid food in the house. I would go over and visit every weekday but it just wasn't enough.  So the family moved her into an assisted living facility where she still could go out on trips to the mall and the park and to visits with the family, but we did not have to worry about her burning down the apartment building.

Sometimes the elderly just can't face the fact they cannot take care of themselves anymore like my grandma who went from keeping a nice house to a total dump in the space of a couple of months when her faculties just left her.  She really couldn't or wouldn't feed herself anymore, but even after she broke her hip and couldn't walk she wanted to be back in her own house.  The family moved her to a home where she initially got physical therapy until she could walk again, and then went to an supervised apartment with a cafeteria so she would not starve.  Still she wanted to be by herself even though her Alzheimer's was very severe by that point (she couldn't recognize any of the grandkids and even had trouble with recognizing her now grown sons), but she was convinced that she was in a home only so her money could be stolen even though my dad and his brothers had to pay for her care as she had nothing left.

These sorts of decisions are very hard, and sometimes the correct course of action is non-obvious.  As long as someone can live by themselves with some assistance and not be a danger to themselves (by being absolutely incapable of caring for themselves) or others then I say let the person live independently.  My family has a history of living into their 80's or 90's by themselves, but in the end several needed to move into some sort of assisted living situation and it was never pretty.
 
2013-11-08 10:37:58 PM  
As a home health social worker, I spend a lot of time educating people that it is not against the law to be stupid and make bad decisions about your own home and your own health. AS LONG AS you're  aware of your behavior and its consequences. According to the article, this lady has a fixed delusion that she can manage her diabetes herself, and she can not. If in the past she had let her partner or her nurses manage her diet or her insulin or the wounds she probably has on her legs and  feet - probably a gangrenous toe - along with God knows what other issues - she wouldn't have been removed from the home. But she refused the help because she's delusional. If she was able to say, "Fark my diabetes. I plan to eat chocolate cream pie night and day and walk around in the stray cat litter with a kleenex tissue rubber-banded around my toe until I die from a blood infection in a month and that's fine by me!" that's one thing. But, if due to dementia or mental illness or both, she's convinced that rubber-banding her toe will save it and injecting insulin into an orange and then eating it makes the insulin work better and she never needs to check her blood sugar with a machine because when it's high she goes blind (that's handy), plus she makes her cornbread with applesauce, not sugar, and that alone will fix EVERYTHING - if that's the situation, what should people who are concerned about her do then? Getting old can be pretty ugly and pretty complicated.
 
2013-11-08 10:43:22 PM  

LoneVVolf: Why is that a court case in the first place?! You shouldn't have to ask a judge for permission to move out of an old folks home.


she has mental impairment and so it's a balancing act between her freedom of choice and duty of care.
 
2013-11-08 10:44:33 PM  

BMFPitt: LoneVVolf: Why is that a court case in the first place?! You shouldn't have to ask a judge for permission to move out of an old folks home.

This.


You can learn a lot by reading the article...

A woman confined to a care home on the orders of a court has been freed to return home - even if the move costs her her life.
The 67-year-old - identified only as M - has mild mental impairment and life-threatening diabetes.


Also it was in the UK. So at a guess, she's been adjudicated incompetent for some reason--perhaps mental illness or mild retardation--and they confined her on a court order as "a danger to herself." But since she has an in-home companion and home health care, there seems to be no reason she can't stay by herself.
 
2013-11-08 10:46:37 PM  

worlddan: Bondith: It's the difference between looking at the diving board from the pool and looking at the pool from the diving board.

I like this analogy, sir.


Use it well, and often.  Credit it to some guy on Fark.
 
2013-11-08 11:02:12 PM  

Ronin_S: After the horror of having my mom keel over and die with no warning (brain cancer, no symptoms), my dad told us that if anything happens to him and the doctors say there's no hope, just pull the plug and let him go.


Holy crap that is awful. I'm sorry man. :(
 
2013-11-08 11:10:30 PM  

doglover: Delay: I hate pictures of elderly folks dying.

And yet only a very few places have the stones to allow "assisted dying" as Terry Pratchett likes to phrase it in speeches.

It's pathetic that your cat gets better end of life treatment than your parents by law.


It's interesting. As I look back over the past several years, I come to the conclusion that...were I a dog. There are probably some families out there that would've put me "out of my misery" and felt very justified in doing so. Pain, no energy, lack of interest in normal fun stuff because of the first two. Just dragging myself around trying to get through the day and not lose my job/become homeless in the process....

 And while I certainly don't blame them, it's a rational decision on the surface. I am, at this point in time, not ready to throw in the towel yet. Despite a currently bleak existence, I maintain hope for some decent medical care that may alleviate me. (This is not rational hope mind you, the last 10 years really put no doubts to that score. Yet it's there nonetheless.)

 And I can't help but wonder... how many pets may have felt the same?

/I wish there was a way to know for sure.
 
2013-11-08 11:20:26 PM  
Borrowed image. Believe it always.
www.asofterworld.com
 
2013-11-08 11:57:52 PM  
I shall now tell a story of two in-laws, my father in law and my mother in law.

My mother in law had a stroke at the beginning of this year.  She went through various therapies and was close to being able to be self-sufficient.  She was living at home again with my father in law - and then she had another stroke.  She now lives in a nursing home full time, with round the clock diabetes care, etc.  She's not going to get much better and will never go home again.

My father in law on the other hand was pretty much the model of health for an old person.  At age 77 he was fit, had full mental faculties, and was one of the greatest guys I ever met.  He accepted me like a son and treated me like one - right up until last Saturday night, when he had a heart attack and died.

We buried him yesterday.  Now his wife is left alone, in a nursing home.  Even though the family visits often (multiple times a day, seriously - it's a big family) do you really to wonder which one we'd all choose?  My father in law checked out in the best way possible - in full health, and very quickly.

/Le sigh....miss you Mr M.
//CSB
 
2013-11-09 12:05:35 AM  
My family seems to be very well long lived, with minimal end dementia issues  That said, I would rather eat a bullet than face that inevitability.  Actually,the loss of my mental facilities terrifies me more than anything else.  My friends have notice to leave me a gun with a round in it if I get to that point.
 
2013-11-09 12:36:14 AM  

FloridaWombat: My family seems to be very well long lived, with minimal end dementia issues  That said, I would rather eat a bullet than face that inevitability.  Actually,the loss of my mental facilities terrifies me more than anything else.  My friends have notice to leave me a gun with a round in it if I get to that point.


This is my one and only fear as well.

/have plenty of guns but not sure that's how I'd choose to go
 
2013-11-09 12:49:45 AM  
Good for her.  The extra years aren't worth the misery.

/It's the Daily Fail.  It's unlikely that anything in the article is actually true.
 
2013-11-09 01:18:53 AM  

slayer199: Good for her and good for the judge.  It's HER choice, not the government's place to decide if she can live in her own home.  She's not a danger to anyone else.


It's usually the family that's more desperate to keep them alive than they are to stay alive. Even once they're senile and withered and saying they want to die, somehow the knowledge that they're breathing is a comfort to family and helps them hold on to old memories better, despite stress over mounting bills. It also lets them put off hard estate decisions.

It's basically torturing the few for the dubious benefit of the many.
 
2013-11-09 01:27:27 AM  

almostsane: FloridaWombat: My family seems to be very well long lived, with minimal end dementia issues  That said, I would rather eat a bullet than face that inevitability.  Actually,the loss of my mental facilities terrifies me more than anything else.  My friends have notice to leave me a gun with a round in it if I get to that point.

This is my one and only fear as well.

/have plenty of guns but not sure that's how I'd choose to go


If you don't, you'd better make it hanging or assisted by someone, or out in the farking boonies, because the human body has an unfortunate habit of surviving most other suicide attempts, complete with brain damage or death and/or crippling. For someone reason the people who stumble on to you, whether they heard the death throes or just came to say hi, always want to revive the unresponsive and half-dead body. Even if they know you were terminally suffering.
 
2013-11-09 01:35:41 AM  

doglover: Delay: I hate pictures of elderly folks dying.

And yet only a very few places have the stones to allow "assisted dying" as Terry Pratchett likes to phrase it in speeches.

It's pathetic that your cat gets better end of life treatment than your parents by law.


For the same reason as above, veterinary medicine is seeing explosive growth in end-stage disease and age care. It used to be that everyone put their animals down as a matter of course, now people with more money (or credit limit) than ability to let go will keep them alive at any cost. No one wants to deal with grief, and all through history charlatans have sold false hope, but science has let us keep someone genuinely alive - in the sense of still breathing - long after they should have been let go. It's just another form of false hope.

Just look at all the desperate pleas for tens of thousands of dollars of donations to pay for a cat's or dog's cancer treatment all over the internet. It's sad, sure, and occasionally some do pull through, but most don't and live miserably in the meantime.
 
2013-11-09 02:30:14 AM  

foxyshadis: Just look at all the desperate pleas for tens of thousands of dollars of donations to pay for a cat's or dog's cancer treatment all over the internet.


The other way to look at it is that when your pet is obviously suffering, there are fairly simple, inexpensive steps you can take to end their suffering. I say that never having gone through the process myself, but for the one cat who needed it, I really wish I could have afforded it. It really wasn't fair to him to have to lie on the floor slowly dying over night, but I seriously didn't have the financial resources at the time :(
 
2013-11-09 03:00:21 AM  

Bondith: Ronin_S: After the horror of having my mom keel over and die with no warning (brain cancer, no symptoms), my dad told us that if anything happens to him and the doctors say there's no hope, just pull the plug and let him go.

My grandad had dementia towards the end.  I'm not looking forward to going through that with my own father.  As someone with an intellectual career, as soon as it looks like my faculties are deteriorating, I'm checking out.

Of course, I say that now while I'm still young and healthy.  Saying it and doing it are completely different circumstances.  It's the difference between looking at the diving board from the pool and looking at the pool from the diving board.



Aye. It's not like one day you're going to wake up and suddenly think "I have dementia today, so long cruel world". I imagine most people don't realize that they are changing. It's gradual and it's not like you can internally measure it. And even if you suspect that you're losing your marbles, every sunset is still precious.

Personally I plan to hang onto life (and run marathons) until I get hit by a bus or something. If I end up in a home, well, maybe they can hook me up to WoW or something.
 
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