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(Fox News)   I once bought a Ford Focus with a stick shift and roll-down windows and that's why there's no such thing as a "substandard" health plan   (foxnews.com) divider line 141
    More: Stupid, President Obama, health insurance, cost sharing  
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2175 clicks; posted to Politics » on 08 Nov 2013 at 1:43 PM (41 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-08 04:29:06 PM

PsiChick: I can only applaud the right wing. They've convinced people to  actually want shiat sandwiches because they hate real food. That's amazing.


Yeah. I can't believe they got people to be all nostalgic about health care before Obamacare. People were getting screwed just as much as they were then as they are now.

I personally didn't have any issue with my plan but I'm still young and wanted to get insurance because I'm in the minority because I realize I'm not invincible and actually might need it some day.

My plan is getting changed but I'm going to take a wait and see approach before I call Obamacare a massive failure.
 
2013-11-08 04:30:32 PM

jigger: http://nation.foxnews.com/2013/11/08/obamacare-forcing-cancer-patient - make-life-or-death-decision-im-going-let-nature-take-its


KELLY: OK. I'm sorry. My question for you tonight is whether the president who has now come out and offered an apology, your reaction to it.

WTF am I reading?
 
2013-11-08 04:30:43 PM

TheManMythLegend: Tman144: The RIchest Man in Babylon: Health economists, notably Daniel Kessler at Stanford, have demonstrated that the failure by the consumer to pay for health care on the margin induces high and in many cases over usage.

Plans that have low co-pays, first-dollar coverage, and insure routine predictable health care events are induce [sic] high and excessive use of care.

By contrast, those like catastrophic care plans that do not insure the routine and cover only unpredictable high cost events, induce consumers to behave more efficiently.

So your argument, Fox News person, is that routine preventative care is WORSE than waiting until you collapse from what would have been an easily treatable INSERT_CONDITION_HERE if it had been caught months or years earlier?

Seriously?

The key word is "economist." Meaning, he didn't look at any real data. He made up numbers and assumed what people would do based on his fantasy world.


He's not explaining it real well but it does make sense,  When you are responsible for the total cost of something you make more efficent decisions bout things.

Heres what co-pays or do,   If you know that a no matter what vehicle you choose is only going to cost you $10,000 are you going to choose the Toyota Carrrola or the Mercedes E class?

Our current situation where many people have insurance with co-pays has made most people with insurance not really care what medical expenses costs.

When you see your doctor for 10 minutes and it costs you a $25 co-pay you dont care that the actual bill was $300 for that vistit.

Now with high deductable plans you go Holy Crap that was a waste,  people will now start demanding more reasonable medical costs when they have to front more of the bill.


If that argument holds, insurers would start offering plans that use an affordable level of coinsurance instead of a copay (or perhaps a bit of both) may very well turn up and outcompete copay-only plans.  If your plan offered an 8% coinsurance instead of a $25 copay, you wouldn't necessarily care that the doctor's visit was $300 when you paid only $25 out of pocket, but when the full bill is $600 and you pay $50 out of pocket, you might well care about the extra $25.

The reason that isn't necessarily a good idea is that, medical care being a field requiring a  lot of expert knowledge, most people cannot possibly be optimal consumers of health care on their own.  To borrow and tweak someone's example upthread - if the patient paid a lot more for an MRI than an X-ray, how many patients would opt for the X-ray even if the doctor honestly thought the MRI was necessary?  What you'd really need would be a system that provided financial incentives to  doctors to provide more cost-efficient care, since it's doctors, not patients, that have the knowledge needed to make intelligent cost/benefit tradeoffs.
 
2013-11-08 04:36:29 PM

Mrtraveler01: PsiChick: I can only applaud the right wing. They've convinced people to  actually want shiat sandwiches because they hate real food. That's amazing.

Yeah. I can't believe they got people to be all nostalgic about health care before Obamacare. People were getting screwed just as much as they were then as they are now.

I personally didn't have any issue with my plan but I'm still young and wanted to get insurance because I'm in the minority because I realize I'm not invincible and actually might need it some day.

My plan is getting changed but I'm going to take a wait and see approach before I call Obamacare a massive failure.


I have bipolar and Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. I tried to avoid diagnosis of the second, but you can't avoid diagnosis of the first. The ACA basically keeps me from  getting utterly screwed over because I was born unlucky enough to have bipolar. I applaud that wholeheartedly.
 
2013-11-08 04:46:02 PM

qorkfiend: jigger: http://nation.foxnews.com/2013/11/08/obamacare-forcing-cancer-patient - make-life-or-death-decision-im-going-let-nature-take-its

Yes, cancer patients were never faced with life-or-death decisions prior to the ACA.


Not that one.
 
2013-11-08 04:48:51 PM

Witty_Retort: WTF am I reading?


i liked this:

MEGYN KELLY: Why do you believe it was due to Obamacare?

BILL ELLIOT: I believe it was beyond the catastrophic previous condition.

the fark does that mean
 
2013-11-08 04:54:12 PM
Now with maternity coverage...
www3.pictures.zimbio.com
 
2013-11-08 04:57:20 PM

sprawl15: Witty_Retort: WTF am I reading?

i liked this:

MEGYN KELLY: Why do you believe it was due to Obamacare?

BILL ELLIOT: I believe it was beyond the catastrophic previous condition.

the fark does that mean


I believe he's saying Obamacare forced his insurance provider to cancel his plan because he has a really bad pre-existing condition.  Which is actually completely the opposite of what Obamacare actually does.
 
2013-11-08 05:02:50 PM

PsiChick: I can only applaud the right wing. They've convinced people to  actually want shiat sandwiches because they hate real food. That's amazing.


There's a very old saying. A pig in a poke. You'd go to market to buy a little piglet. Someone heard you wanted to buy a piglet, and wouldn't you know it! They have one right here they were going to sell! They'd already have it in a sack (called a poke), tied up, ready to go. Too good to be true!

likethedew.com

...only thing is: sometimes, in this unregulated town market, you weren't getting a pig.  Sometimes, you'd get that wriggling sack all the way home...

www.savingpets.com.au

...and you'd uncover an awful truth. You'd let the cat out of the bag.

idiomorigins.net

You were led to believe what you had was what you needed. You were lied to. You were made to be a patsy, a fool, and there's nothing you can do about it now. 

Here's where things get retarded. In this new version of people being sold useless bundles disguised as something they actually want, there are people out there that are defending the people passing alley cats off as piglets.

To those people, I say:

assets.diylol.com
 
2013-11-08 05:10:33 PM

TheManMythLegend: Heres what co-pays or do, If you know that a no matter what vehicle you choose is only going to cost you $10,000 are you going to choose the Toyota Carrrola or the Mercedes E class?


At least when you're deciding between the Mercedes and the Toyota, you've been informed that the cost is going to be $10,000. Just try to find out how much that perfect little black gall bladder surgery that you've got your eye on is going to cost, all in. Beforehand. You know, so you can make an "efficient decision".
 
2013-11-08 05:10:55 PM

Jackpot777: You were led to believe what you had was what you needed. You were lied to. You were made to be a patsy, a fool, and there's nothing you can do about it now.


Kittens are cute.  Who wants a pet pig?
 
2013-11-08 05:21:08 PM

Jodeo: Now with maternity coverage...
[www3.pictures.zimbio.com image 395x594]


A) He's on Medicare
B) He has a child
 
2013-11-08 05:31:36 PM

syrynxx: Jackpot777: You were led to believe what you had was what you needed. You were lied to. You were made to be a patsy, a fool, and there's nothing you can do about it now.

Kittens are cute.  Who wants a pet pig?


Who said anything about a pet?


/mmmm...bacon
 
2013-11-08 05:51:51 PM

12349876: B) He has a child


If your children are grown and you dont plan any more, why should you have to pay for maternity coverage?  Why is it the job of society to subsidize someone's choice to have a child?
 
2013-11-08 06:11:28 PM

o5iiawah: 12349876: B) He has a child

If your children are grown and you dont plan any more, why should you have to pay for maternity coverage?  Why is it the job of society to subsidize someone's choice to have a child?


Because you also probably don't have a heart condition, but you're also paying other people's heart conditions.

You might never break a bone, but you're paying for other people's broken bones.

You might not need a new kidney, but you're paying for someone's transplant.

Because that is the farking way insurance works.
 
2013-11-08 06:14:37 PM

o5iiawah: 12349876: B) He has a child

If your children are grown and you dont plan any more, why should you have to pay for maternity coverage?  Why is it the job of society to subsidize someone's choice to have a child?


I only drive 7 miles on the Interstate. Why should I have to subsidize everyone else?
I don't have any kids. Why do I have to pay for schools?
 
2013-11-08 06:25:25 PM

Jim_Callahan: Since the article is stupid, I am instead going to talk about the car design metaphor as if it were the literal point of discussion.

A manual focus is a good deal, since you get almost the gas mileage savings of going hybrid but you get it cheaper.  I wouldn't necessarily recommend the manual transmission over the electric hybrid for anything much heavier, though, since long-term the relatively minor mileage advantage of hybrid at higher weights will add up.  But then, at the VERY heavy weights you're probably going to want better direct control of your gearage and the manual is the cheapest way to accomplish this.

The only really universal rule is fark the (non-hybrid/electric) automatic transmission, it's so mediocre that it's second-best at everything and ends up being worst overall.


I think this is the greatest wisdom likely to be found in this thread and endorse it wholeheartedly.
 
2013-11-08 06:26:40 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: The RIchest Man in Babylon: Health economists, notably Daniel Kessler at Stanford, have demonstrated that the failure by the consumer to pay for health care on the margin induces high and in many cases over usage.

Plans that have low co-pays, first-dollar coverage, and insure routine predictable health care events are induce [sic] high and excessive use of care.

By contrast, those like catastrophic care plans that do not insure the routine and cover only unpredictable high cost events, induce consumers to behave more efficiently.

So your argument, Fox News person, is that routine preventative care is WORSE than waiting until you collapse from what would have been an easily treatable INSERT_CONDITION_HERE if it had been caught months or years earlier?

Seriously?

Yes.  Apparently the Conservative idea of insurance is that people should pay for it but never use it.


So they support the First Lady's nutrition goals? And an increase in the cigarette/alcohol taxes as well as serious restrictions on motorcycle and firearm ownership? And expanded contraceptive use with publicly funded vaccines to help eliminate preventable deaths, especially in infants and the elderly?

Wow. That's pretty ballsy.
 
2013-11-08 06:33:10 PM

syrynxx: Jackpot777: You were led to believe what you had was what you needed. You were lied to. You were made to be a patsy, a fool, and there's nothing you can do about it now.

Kittens are cute.  Who wants a pet pig?


Not a kitten. An alley cat.
 
2013-11-08 06:33:23 PM

Summer Glau's Love Slave: "I once bought a Ford Focus with a stick shift and roll-down windows"

Wow. Sooooo bootstrappy.

/What a great story!
//The thought of the author thundering down the thoroughfare, rolling windows up and down, shfting gears furiously...
///Gives me goosebumps of raw awe.


You missed the point of the story.
 
2013-11-08 06:39:56 PM

Witty_Retort: o5iiawah: 12349876: B) He has a child

If your children are grown and you dont plan any more, why should you have to pay for maternity coverage?  Why is it the job of society to subsidize someone's choice to have a child?

I only drive 7 miles on the Interstate. Why should I have to subsidize everyone else?
I don't have any kids. Why do I have to pay for schools?


Good highways benefit all, regardless the amount of time you spend on it.  Without the highways, the food you buy may be more expensive, and the traffic cutting through your neighborhood may increase.You're paying it forward- not unlike somebody else had to do while you attended school.
 
2013-11-08 06:44:52 PM

Witty_Retort: o5iiawah: 12349876: B) He has a child

If your children are grown and you dont plan any more, why should you have to pay for maternity coverage?  Why is it the job of society to subsidize someone's choice to have a child?

I only drive 7 miles on the Interstate. Why should I have to subsidize everyone else?
I don't have any kids. Why do I have to pay for schools?


Using 1996 numbers, one mile of Interstate costs $1 million to build.

And that's just a straight road on the ground. Throw bridges in there, it's more. Exit and entry ramps (unless you magically appear on the interstate) is more. Resurfacing would cost around $250,000 per mile, to make sure it's not a pot-hole minefield.... and that cost estimate is for 22' wide streets, so multiply as appropriate. And make sure you include the other roads you're using.

And that's just for your road you're using. Are you telling me, honestly, that you've paid millions of dollars in taxes just for the roads you use? Never mind the whole infrastructure of society that ensures you have GPS use if you have the equipment, no roaming groups of bandits picking off motorists and taking them hostage, and so on?

My response to any Farker that claims they have, really, s'truth...
 
2013-11-08 07:09:31 PM

o5iiawah: 12349876: B) He has a child

If your children are grown and you dont plan any more, why should you have to pay for maternity coverage?  Why is it the job of society to subsidize someone's choice to have a child?


Probably for the same reason that some 25 year old woman trying to get pregnant has to subsidize that dude's prostate.  Because that's the way insurance, and society in general work - everybody suffers a little bit through taxation to provide benefits for everyone.  Benefits that almost everyone wouldn't be able to afford if they tried to get them privately.

Also, it's entirely likely he's not paying for maternity.  How would you tell the difference between him being charged for one of these two options:
-$10 a month to cover problems arising from his balls, shaft & prostate along PLUS $10 for problems arising from his vagina, uterus & thathcers
-$20 a month for any genital-related issues, pick and choose organs as appropriate
 
2013-11-08 07:36:57 PM
Obamacare has nothing to do with healthcare. It is a redistribution plan.
 
2013-11-08 07:45:37 PM

badaboom: Obamacare has nothing to do with healthcare. It is a redistribution plan.


So is supply-side economics.
 
2013-11-08 07:46:55 PM
Well, having read the article, I now know it is possible to find something stupider than YouTube comments on the internets. So, there's that.
 
2013-11-08 07:56:26 PM

Jodeo: Now with maternity coverage...
[www3.pictures.zimbio.com image 395x594]


How much will it cost the pool to provide him with maternity coverage?  Zero dollars!

And your wife now is covered for testicular cancer, penile cancer, premature ejaculation, erectile dysfunction, liver disease, prostrate cancer, type I diabetes, hemophilia, and many other diseases that are only developed in men or primarily in men.

There are many diseases that are moreprevalent with one sex or the other, some diseases are moreprevalent based on race, like sickle cell.

The point of thelegislation was to make premiums the same no matter your sex or race or ethnicity or prior disposition to disease or any otherhereditary factors.   Women don't get pregnant without a man and thus the burden of the cost of their pregnancies can be spread out to men.
 
2013-11-08 08:00:25 PM
I ride a motorcycle, therefore the author is really a RINO liberal plant.
 
2013-11-08 08:02:22 PM

o5iiawah: 12349876: B) He has a child

If your children are grown and you dont plan any more, why should you have to pay for maternity coverage?  Why is it the job of society to subsidize someone's choice to have a child?


Don't worry. Fartbongocare FEMA Deathcamp Pannels are gonna make everyone gay marry Muslims. So no more children. Problem solved!
 
2013-11-08 08:06:50 PM

clowncar on fire: Witty_Retort: o5iiawah: 12349876: B) He has a child

If your children are grown and you dont plan any more, why should you have to pay for maternity coverage?  Why is it the job of society to subsidize someone's choice to have a child?

I only drive 7 miles on the Interstate. Why should I have to subsidize everyone else?
I don't have any kids. Why do I have to pay for schools?

Good highways benefit all, regardless the amount of time you spend on it.  Without the highways, the food you buy may be more expensive, and the traffic cutting through your neighborhood may increase.You're paying it forward- not unlike somebody else had to do while you attended school.


Jackpot777: Witty_Retort: o5iiawah: 12349876: B) He has a child

If your children are grown and you dont plan any more, why should you have to pay for maternity coverage?  Why is it the job of society to subsidize someone's choice to have a child?

I only drive 7 miles on the Interstate. Why should I have to subsidize everyone else?
I don't have any kids. Why do I have to pay for schools?

Using 1996 numbers, one mile of Interstate costs $1 million to build.

And that's just a straight road on the ground. Throw bridges in there, it's more. Exit and entry ramps (unless you magically appear on the interstate) is more. Resurfacing would cost around $250,000 per mile, to make sure it's not a pot-hole minefield.... and that cost estimate is for 22' wide streets, so multiply as appropriate. And make sure you include the other roads you're using.

And that's just for your road you're using. Are you telling me, honestly, that you've paid millions of dollars in taxes just for the roads you use? Never mind the whole infrastructure of society that ensures you have GPS use if you have the equipment, no roaming groups of bandits picking off motorists and taking them hostage, and so on?

My response to any Farker that claims they have, really, s'truth...


Good FSM people.
Read the full post and who is quoted before ripping into someone.
Taxes are what we pay for civilization.
 
2013-11-08 08:14:07 PM

Karac: redqueenmeg: Unrelated, and NOT a metaphor, but I wish I could get a new car with roll-down windows now.  Automatic ones just break all the damn time and cost a fortune to fix.

Some models still have them available.  Jeep Wranglers (at least the ones that come out of the factory as soft tops) have them.  Alas, when I bought mine last year I needed the hardtop (lots of tools and parts I didn't want stolen by any jackass with a pocket knife), and the only way I could get both was to pay an extra $500 to get a softtop converted.


Can't your tools still be stolen by any jackass with a rock?
 
2013-11-08 09:43:34 PM

o5iiawah: 12349876: B) He has a child

Why is it the job of society to subsidize someone's choice to have a child?


Or a pointless war in Iraq for that matter?  Or an F-35?  Or a bunch of religious charities?

Why can't I sell leaded paint or tainted meat in my meat market?  Why is societies job to keep me from selling what I want to people that want to buy it?
 
2013-11-08 09:57:33 PM
Economists call these spillovers "externalities,"

I think I just threw up in my mouth.
 
2013-11-08 10:29:08 PM

UncomfortableSilence: The ACA wants me to have a car with power windows and automatic transmission.  Fox News wants me to have a horse with a bum leg.


Is there any way I can just go over to Auto Row and make up my own goddamn mind on the kind of package I want?
 
2013-11-08 11:12:13 PM

Witty_Retort: clowncar on fire: Witty_Retort: o5iiawah: 12349876: B) He has a child

If your children are grown and you dont plan any more, why should you have to pay for maternity coverage?  Why is it the job of society to subsidize someone's choice to have a child?

I only drive 7 miles on the Interstate. Why should I have to subsidize everyone else?
I don't have any kids. Why do I have to pay for schools?

Good highways benefit all, regardless the amount of time you spend on it.  Without the highways, the food you buy may be more expensive, and the traffic cutting through your neighborhood may increase.You're paying it forward- not unlike somebody else had to do while you attended school.

Jackpot777: Witty_Retort: o5iiawah: 12349876: B) He has a child

If your children are grown and you dont plan any more, why should you have to pay for maternity coverage?  Why is it the job of society to subsidize someone's choice to have a child?

I only drive 7 miles on the Interstate. Why should I have to subsidize everyone else?
I don't have any kids. Why do I have to pay for schools?

Using 1996 numbers, one mile of Interstate costs $1 million to build.

And that's just a straight road on the ground. Throw bridges in there, it's more. Exit and entry ramps (unless you magically appear on the interstate) is more. Resurfacing would cost around $250,000 per mile, to make sure it's not a pot-hole minefield.... and that cost estimate is for 22' wide streets, so multiply as appropriate. And make sure you include the other roads you're using.

And that's just for your road you're using. Are you telling me, honestly, that you've paid millions of dollars in taxes just for the roads you use? Never mind the whole infrastructure of society that ensures you have GPS use if you have the equipment, no roaming groups of bandits picking off motorists and taking them hostage, and so on?

My response to any Farker that claims they have, really, s'truth...

Good FSM people.
Read the full post and who is quo ...


Stop asking rhetorical questions on Fark. We don't handle them here. They're like Canadian quarters.
 
2013-11-08 11:28:48 PM
I drive a stick shift with roll down windows is there something I need to know about because this thread seems really off topic.
 
2013-11-09 01:30:14 AM

redqueenmeg: Unrelated, and NOT a metaphor, but I wish I could get a new car with roll-down windows now.  Automatic ones just break all the damn time and cost a fortune to fix.


The base Toyota Yaris comes without power windows
 
2013-11-09 02:39:17 AM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Apparently the Conservative idea of insurance is that people should pay for it but never use it.


That's the fundamental point of ALL insurance throughout history. The more you use it, the higher the rates go, and most P&C insurers have a rule that people with too many claims get dropped.

I was selling home insurance in the years right after Katrina, and the companies I was with had strict rules that absolutely no new policies could be issued in Florida and most of Louisiana because there was too much likelihood that the claims would far exceed the premiums. When the restriction on Florida was finally lifted, the policies that got issued were all costing like ten thousand a year. Insurance companies are required by law to keep enough liquid cash in their accounts to pay out a claim on every single active policy on their books if something crazy happens.
 
2013-11-09 08:57:24 AM

kidgenius: What the arguement is, from an economics standpoint, is that when you have to pay less of the brunt of a set of procedures, you are less likely to care about what procedures are, or are not necessary. This American Life covered this a few years back on TWO separate shows. From their show:

"But that win-win-win in the human health care world, it creates big problems. Doctors feel free to order more tests, patients don't care because they're not paying the bill. Everyone is so busy winning the system wastes money."

"And insurance fundamentally, is a lousy way to pay for things. It separates people from the money they're spending. Which inevitably leads to us winding up with tests and drugs and procedures we don't really need, just to be safe."

This is what the economist meant....and they're right. For example, if a doctor checks you out and gives you 2 options, an X-ray or a CAT scan, and you only have to pay the same amount for each one, which are you going to go with? Probably the CAT scan. But, teh X-ray may be enough to tell the doc what is necessary, and its quite a bit cheaper.


Why would the doctor ask me if I should have an xray our a cat scan? That would be pretty stupid since I'm not a doctor.

Wouldn't that be like a mechanic asking his customer which scan too he should use to pull the error codes on his Ford Focus?
 
2013-11-09 09:33:19 AM

Karac: Just as it would be a bad idea to require that all cars come with power windows, power locks, and automatic transmissions, it is also unwise to order citizens to buy health care that includes maternity benefits or other care.

Does anyone else find it rip-roaringly hilarious that the very same people that want to outlaw abortion also want to make it harder for women to afford to give birth to healthy children?  Or maybe they reconcile those differences by thinking people only have sex for the express purpose of procreation and that every pregnancy can be planned out before the closing of the next enrollment period.


Yes but apparently some are still pro-choice. They just want to wait until its sinned first. This guy advocates for the death penalty for rebellious children.

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1948490

That'll teach you not to eat your peas.
 
2013-11-10 01:13:17 AM
There's no such thing as sub-standard insurance. Why I even bought a car with a standard (not sub-standard) transmission. So there's that, right?
 
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