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(Fox News)   I once bought a Ford Focus with a stick shift and roll-down windows and that's why there's no such thing as a "substandard" health plan   (foxnews.com) divider line 141
    More: Stupid, President Obama, health insurance, cost sharing  
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2172 clicks; posted to Politics » on 08 Nov 2013 at 1:43 PM (35 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-08 12:38:13 PM
Did the Ford Focus also not have airbags, seatbelts, rearview mirrors, brake systems, child restraints, rear impact protection, or one of the other many minimal safety regulations all cars have to have? Because why is Obamacare forcing you to buy airbags when Jesus is your backseat driver? (As long as it's not Baby Jesus, of course, because then you would need the child restraints)
 
2013-11-08 12:42:01 PM
Medical bills are behind more than 60 percent of U.S. personal bankruptcies, U.S. researchers reported on Thursday in a report they said demonstrates that healthcare reform is on the wrong track.

More than 75 percent of these bankrupt families had health insurance but still were overwhelmed by their medical debts, the team at Harvard Law School, Harvard Medical School and Ohio University reported in the American Journal of Medicine. Link
 
2013-11-08 12:46:59 PM
What's the over/under on how many years we have to wait before "Hands off my Obamacare!" placards at conservative rallies decrying the horrors of single-payer?
 
2013-11-08 12:57:01 PM

UrukHaiGuyz: What's the over/under on how many years we have to wait before "Hands off my Obamacare!" placards at conservative rallies decrying the horrors of single-payer?


LOL.  I don't know how long that will take but I will bet with anyone that the GOP presidential nominee will not campaign on a repeal of Obamacare in 2016.  They will campaign on replacing/fixing/modifying it but not repealing it.
 
2013-11-08 01:06:06 PM
Consider those health plans the Chevy Volts of insurance plans.
 
2013-11-08 01:07:46 PM
Health economists, notably Daniel Kessler at Stanford, have demonstrated that the failure by the consumer to pay for health care on the margin induces high and in many cases over usage.

Plans that have low co-pays, first-dollar coverage, and insure routine predictable health care events are induce [sic] high and excessive use of care.

By contrast, those like catastrophic care plans that do not insure the routine and cover only unpredictable high cost events, induce consumers to behave more efficiently.


So your argument, Fox News person, is that routine preventative care is WORSE than waiting until you collapse from what would have been an easily treatable INSERT_CONDITION_HERE if it had been caught months or years earlier?

Seriously?
 
2013-11-08 01:07:52 PM
Plans that have low co-pays, first-dollar coverage, and insure routine predictable health care events are induce high and excessive use of care.

By contrast, those like catastrophic care plans that do not insure the routine and cover only unpredictable high cost events, induce consumers to behave more efficiently.


People that couldn't access health insurance before might use it now that they have access. That was sort of the point of the legislation.
 
2013-11-08 01:12:58 PM

Soup4Bonnie: Plans that have low co-pays, first-dollar coverage, and insure routine predictable health care events are induce high and excessive use of care.

By contrast, those like catastrophic care plans that do not insure the routine and cover only unpredictable high cost events, induce consumers to behave more efficiently.

People that couldn't access health insurance before might use it now that they have access. That was sort of the point of the legislation.


Technically, dying suddenly from a massive coronary is much more efficient than spending healthcare dollars and doctor hours on cholesterol/blood tests and lifestyle advice. At least as long as you don't get resuscitated.
 
2013-11-08 01:13:21 PM

The RIchest Man in Babylon: Health economists, notably Daniel Kessler at Stanford, have demonstrated that the failure by the consumer to pay for health care on the margin induces high and in many cases over usage.

Plans that have low co-pays, first-dollar coverage, and insure routine predictable health care events are induce [sic] high and excessive use of care.

By contrast, those like catastrophic care plans that do not insure the routine and cover only unpredictable high cost events, induce consumers to behave more efficiently.

So your argument, Fox News person, is that routine preventative care is WORSE than waiting until you collapse from what would have been an easily treatable INSERT_CONDITION_HERE if it had been caught months or years earlier?

Seriously?


Yes.  Apparently the Conservative idea of insurance is that people should pay for it but never use it.
 
2013-11-08 01:14:34 PM
Oh my god, just hurry the fark up and get universal health care like the rest of the damn world. This may be the stupidest shiat I've ever seen.
 
2013-11-08 01:14:56 PM
I have the Cadillac of health plans.

Its a 1983 Cadillac Cimarron!
 
2013-11-08 01:27:34 PM
I'd make the argument that a Ford Focus *with* a stick shift is a vast improvement on one without. As is the case in almost any automobile.
 
2013-11-08 01:29:09 PM

vernonFL: I have the Cadillac of health plans.

Its a 1983 Cadillac Cimarron!


Sing it with me.

Red Wigglers... The Cadillac of plans, the Cadillac of plans...
 
2013-11-08 01:29:38 PM

The RIchest Man in Babylon: Health economists, notably Daniel Kessler at Stanford, have demonstrated that the failure by the consumer to pay for health care on the margin induces high and in many cases over usage.

Plans that have low co-pays, first-dollar coverage, and insure routine predictable health care events are induce [sic] high and excessive use of care.

By contrast, those like catastrophic care plans that do not insure the routine and cover only unpredictable high cost events, induce consumers to behave more efficiently.

So your argument, Fox News person, is that routine preventative care is WORSE than waiting until you collapse from what would have been an easily treatable INSERT_CONDITION_HERE if it had been caught months or years earlier?

Seriously?


I'm certain Daniel Kessler consulted with the health departments in every other developed country in the world which have concluded the opposite of what he wrote.  Specifically, that increasing regular visits and preventative care reduces overall health care costs.
 
2013-11-08 01:47:13 PM
Clearly the guy has never driven a windowless Chevette from a milk crate in the middle of snow storm.
 
2013-11-08 01:47:56 PM
Just because many Americans overspend on health care and get overtreated does not automatically exclude that many Americans underspend on health care and fail to get vital treatments.
 
2013-11-08 01:49:43 PM
 
2013-11-08 01:49:44 PM

The RIchest Man in Babylon: Health economists, notably Daniel Kessler at Stanford, have demonstrated that the failure by the consumer to pay for health care on the margin induces high and in many cases over usage.

Plans that have low co-pays, first-dollar coverage, and insure routine predictable health care events are induce [sic] high and excessive use of care.

By contrast, those like catastrophic care plans that do not insure the routine and cover only unpredictable high cost events, induce consumers to behave more efficiently.

So your argument, Fox News person, is that routine preventative care is WORSE than waiting until you collapse from what would have been an easily treatable INSERT_CONDITION_HERE if it had been caught months or years earlier?

Seriously?


The key word is "economist." Meaning, he didn't look at any real data. He made up numbers and assumed what people would do based on his fantasy world.
 
2013-11-08 01:50:17 PM
Since the article is stupid, I am instead going to talk about the car design metaphor as if it were the literal point of discussion.

A manual focus is a good deal, since you get almost the gas mileage savings of going hybrid but you get it cheaper.  I wouldn't necessarily recommend the manual transmission over the electric hybrid for anything much heavier, though, since long-term the relatively minor mileage advantage of hybrid at higher weights will add up.  But then, at the VERY heavy weights you're probably going to want better direct control of your gearage and the manual is the cheapest way to accomplish this.

The only really universal rule is fark the (non-hybrid/electric) automatic transmission, it's so mediocre that it's second-best at everything and ends up being worst overall.
 
2013-11-08 01:50:28 PM
I'd make the argument that a Ford Focus *with* a stick shift is a vast improvement on one without. As is the case in almost any automobile.

here here!
 
2013-11-08 01:50:30 PM
24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-11-08 01:51:11 PM
Was hoping it was the "Red Cup" lady!
 
2013-11-08 01:52:19 PM
FTFA: "...the president's rejection of "substandard" plans may result in eliminating the plans that are most efficient." ...Because patients bear a small fraction of the cost of treatment, they do not make efficient decisions on health care."

I stopped reading right there!  Look bud, I do not have any control when I am in the hospital and they decide to charge me $9 for two Tylenol, then bill my insurance for it.   I have zero control over that.
 
2013-11-08 01:52:39 PM
Only poor people would want health insurance.
 
2013-11-08 01:52:50 PM
The car had a standard, stick shift transmission, roll-down windows and manual locks. My car was "substandard" compared to the almost all other autos in the White House lot, but it was a fine car that served me well.

That car did what you needed it to do, and it did what it was advertised to you as being able to do.

This lady's plan, on the other hand, cost her $54 a month.  She thought that it would pay all but $50 for a doctor's visit, and all but $15 per prescription.  But in reality, it paid only $50 per visit and $15 per prescription.  That plan did absolutely nothing of what she needed, and was in no way or shape what she thought it was.  Now, if you had been sold what was said to you was a running automobile only to find a block away from the dealership that the engine block was full of ferrets, then you may have a comparison.

Oh, who am I kidding.  You go on to spend the rest of the article arguing that good health insurance is bad for people because they use too much of it.  Which can only lead me to believe that you think people with no health insurance are the healthiest people in the world.
 
2013-11-08 01:53:21 PM
"I once bought a Ford Focus with a stick shift and roll-down windows"

Wow. Sooooo bootstrappy.

/What a great story!
//The thought of the author thundering down the thoroughfare, rolling windows up and down, shfting gears furiously...
///Gives me goosebumps of raw awe.
 
2013-11-08 01:53:53 PM
Sure, why not?
 
2013-11-08 01:55:03 PM

UrukHaiGuyz: What's the over/under on how many years we have to wait before "Hands off my Obamacare!" placards at conservative rallies decrying the horrors of single-payer?


At least that "could" be a valid argument. The ACA offers you a choice of plans while single payer would not.
 
2013-11-08 01:55:25 PM
Just as it would be a bad idea to require that all cars come with power windows, power locks, and automatic transmissions, it is also unwise to order citizens to buy health care that includes maternity benefits or other care.

Does anyone else find it rip-roaringly hilarious that the very same people that want to outlaw abortion also want to make it harder for women to afford to give birth to healthy children?  Or maybe they reconcile those differences by thinking people only have sex for the express purpose of procreation and that every pregnancy can be planned out before the closing of the next enrollment period.
 
2013-11-08 01:55:45 PM
Unrelated, and NOT a metaphor, but I wish I could get a new car with roll-down windows now.  Automatic ones just break all the damn time and cost a fortune to fix.
 
2013-11-08 01:56:45 PM

UrukHaiGuyz: What's the over/under on how many years we have to wait before "Hands off my Obamacare!" placards at conservative rallies decrying the horrors of single-payer?


Well they'll say "Hands off my Affordable Healthcare Act" by then, but yeah.
 
2013-11-08 01:57:23 PM
It's more like saying why can't I drive a Ford Focus with bad brakes, bald tires, and a broken tail light.
 
2013-11-08 01:57:52 PM
Slight rant time:

I am sorry, I reject the idea that most young people believe that they do not need insurance, or only need catastrophic insurance with high deductibles.  Sure, they may be misinformed, or may lack the foresight to really comprehend what it is that they are saying "no thanks!" to.

They fail to take into account exactly how expensive something can be.  I am so thankful that I had insurance this past June when I got horrible food poisoning and was hospitalized for 3 days.  $9000 is the final bill.  $9, farking G's!!!  My out of pocket expense was a mere $150.  There is no way I could have predicted my illness, nor could have I paid for it had I not had insurance.

The anti-ACA folk simply refuse to take stuff like this into account, it is disingenuous and shows weak arguments.
 
2013-11-08 01:58:03 PM
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-11-08 01:58:57 PM
my 2003 ford zx2 has a 5 speed, no power windows, no power door locks, and a cassette player, but will never suck as much as george w. bush
 
2013-11-08 01:59:43 PM

UrukHaiGuyz: What's the over/under on how many years we have to wait before "Hands off my Obamacare!" placards at conservative rallies decrying the horrors of single-payer?


They will probably have "Hands off my PPACA plan" and "Keep government out of Healthcare.gov!", but will still say that it was a great thing Obamacare was defeated as it was a terrible idea.
 
2013-11-08 02:01:10 PM

Endive Wombat: Slight rant time:

I am sorry, I reject the idea that most young people believe that they do not need insurance, or only need catastrophic insurance with high deductibles.  Sure, they may be misinformed, or may lack the foresight to really comprehend what it is that they are saying "no thanks!" to.

They fail to take into account exactly how expensive something can be.  I am so thankful that I had insurance this past June when I got horrible food poisoning and was hospitalized for 3 days.  $9000 is the final bill.  $9, farking G's!!!  My out of pocket expense was a mere $150.  There is no way I could have predicted my illness, nor could have I paid for it had I not had insurance.

The anti-ACA folk simply refuse to take stuff like this into account, it is disingenuous and shows weak arguments.


You'd be right to reject that idea:

kaiserfamilyfoundation.files.wordpress.com

theincidentaleconomist.com

/both images hotlinked to survey results
 
2013-11-08 02:01:49 PM
Of course, most of these plans were cardboard boxes with wheels drawn in crayon and the word Ford written on the side, also in crayon.
 
2013-11-08 02:02:08 PM
 
2013-11-08 02:02:18 PM
It would be a better analogy to compare this guy's health insurance biatching with the 25/50/25 policy he probably had on that Focus... after he had an at-fault accident with an SL65 AMG.
 
2013-11-08 02:02:33 PM
Well, my sister had a three cylinder Chevy Sprint, automatic.  Thing was built like a tin can, but it got something like 50 miles to the gallon or some shiat.  Anyway, one winter day we were driving around through snow-covered wheat fields, following behind this douchebag in a Black Camaro (cool!) who was poking around doing like, I don't know, 30 miles an hour or something.

Out of the corner of my eye (sitting in the passenger seat) I saw this greyish animal running through the snow.  I just assumed it was someone's German shepherd or something, and I didn't think anything of it as it disappeared behind a snowbank.  Suddenly a mule deer pops into view alongside the Camaro, making head-fakes as if it's going to cross in front of it, and then shying back, and then moving to cross, etc.  After a beat, you can see the thought run through its head "Ah, hell! I can make it!".
The deer zips out into the lane in front of the Camaro, which promptly nails it and the deer flies, spinning like a top, over the car and then lands on its neck in front of us, with trim pieces and the passenger mirror of the Camaro raining down around it.
Miraculously, the deer then gets to its feet and runs across the road into the snowbank and off into the fields.

My point?  Um.  Obamacare is like that deer, or, no, like the Camaro.  Anyway, when we got home we bought beer, so, yay!
It was Stroh's light, so boo.
 
2013-11-08 02:03:54 PM
Holy fark...   THESE ARE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO DEBUNKED CBS LAST FARKING WEEK!!!

You know, the ones who showed JUST how farking "substandard" a "heathcare plan" can really be. Remember the woman who was paying $54/month, and getting $50 towards a doctor's visit, $15 off a 'script, and $50 towards a hospital visit IF it was due to "complications from pregnancy"? Yeah, FOX FARKING NEWS brought that to our attention, rebutting CBS.

Do these people not communicate internally?

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/fox-news-greta-van-susteren-out-journalis ms -cbs-news-on-florida-womans-junk-insurance/

And no, you don't need shiatty insurance to be more efficient, you retarded farking tool. I have awesome insurance, and the best part is that a non-essential ER visit is a $100 copay, but if you get admitted, the copay is $0. We also pay about $120/month for a family of 5, have $25 copays, $3 'scripts, my wife's entire pregnancy was covered, a 2 day hospital stay for me, on morphine and saline for the weekend, followed up by a visit to my primary care, and an MRI cost about $250.

So no, you don't need garbage insurance in order to be efficient, and the insurance companies can provide decent farking coverage and still make sick profits. Pun intended...
 
2013-11-08 02:03:55 PM

redqueenmeg: Unrelated, and NOT a metaphor, but I wish I could get a new car with roll-down windows now.  Automatic ones just break all the damn time and cost a fortune to fix.


Some models still have them available.  Jeep Wranglers (at least the ones that come out of the factory as soft tops) have them.  Alas, when I bought mine last year I needed the hardtop (lots of tools and parts I didn't want stolen by any jackass with a pocket knife), and the only way I could get both was to pay an extra $500 to get a softtop converted.
 
2013-11-08 02:04:22 PM

Skleenar: Well, my sister had a three cylinder Chevy Sprint, automatic.


Of course I meant manual.
 
2013-11-08 02:04:59 PM
nowhere in the ppaca does it say i can't drive with cinderblocks for wheels
 
2013-11-08 02:11:08 PM
Some may have no intention of having children.

Well, shiat, that sells me on this guy. Remember, 100% of all pregnancies are planned.

Others may not want to devote the time required to take advantage of the preventive care that is covered.

So we shouldn't have preventive care that will LOWER the overall cost by catching things early that could be very expensive later? Gotcha!

Still others may be skeptical of the effectiveness of mental health care.

You're right, it shouldn't be covered at all because some people may be skeptical.

Let me guess, this is just a trained monkey on a type...

Edward P. Lazear, a Stanford Graduate School of Business professor and Hoover Institution fellow, was chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers from 2006-2009.

Really?
 
2013-11-08 02:13:01 PM
What the arguement is, from an economics standpoint, is that when you have to pay less of the brunt of a set of procedures, you are less likely to care about what procedures are, or are not necessary. This American Life covered this a few years back on TWO separate shows. From their show:

"But that win-win-win in the human health care world, it creates big problems. Doctors feel free to order more tests, patients don't care because they're not paying the bill. Everyone is so busy winning the system wastes money."

"And insurance fundamentally, is a lousy way to pay for things. It separates people from the money they're spending. Which inevitably leads to us winding up with tests and drugs and procedures we don't really need, just to be safe."

This is what the economist meant....and they're right. For example, if a doctor checks you out and gives you 2 options, an X-ray or a CAT scan, and you only have to pay the same amount for each one, which are you going to go with? Probably the CAT scan. But, teh X-ray may be enough to tell the doc what is necessary, and its quite a bit cheaper.
 
2013-11-08 02:13:37 PM

Karac: redqueenmeg: Unrelated, and NOT a metaphor, but I wish I could get a new car with roll-down windows now.  Automatic ones just break all the damn time and cost a fortune to fix.

Some models still have them available.  Jeep Wranglers (at least the ones that come out of the factory as soft tops) have them.  Alas, when I bought mine last year I needed the hardtop (lots of tools and parts I didn't want stolen by any jackass with a pocket knife), and the only way I could get both was to pay an extra $500 to get a softtop converted.


See? All this extra expense!  I suppose an auto shop would probably be able to convert automatic windows to roll-down ones, though, right?  That might end up being cheaper than the $400 apiece to fix them, plus a guarantee they'll just break again the next year.
 
2013-11-08 02:16:02 PM
You'd be right to reject that idea:

[kaiserfamilyfoundation.files.wordpress.com image 850x637]

[theincidentaleconomist.com image 500x183]

/both images hotlinked to survey results



What I meant was I reject the Fox News' of the world saying that young people do not want insurance.
 
2013-11-08 02:16:11 PM
I_Am_Weasel:

Sing it with me.

Red Wigglers... The Cadillac of plans, the Cadillac of plans...


Not really, they only let you see one doctor...

marcuspcannon.files.wordpress.com
 
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