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(Daily Mail)   ♫ The prayers on the bus will get you fired. Get you fired. Get you fired. ♫   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 145
    More: Dumbass, Infraction, supreme court ruling, WCCO, prayers, Supreme Court, preachers, Durham School Services, 1st amendment  
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3953 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Nov 2013 at 8:11 AM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



145 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-11-07 08:13:41 AM  
All through the town.
 
2013-11-07 08:16:24 AM  
'They are trying to take away every right the Christian has to express our Christian belief in this supposed to have been Christian nation,' he told the station

I.....don't even know where to begin with that sentence. Instead I'm just going to sigh, angrily.
 
2013-11-07 08:18:02 AM  
"Then I will pray and ask them if they want to join me in prayer. Just give them something constructive and positive to go to school with."

And you are the sole arbiter of what is positive and what is not, am I right?

Religious people are such f*cking narcissists.
 
2013-11-07 08:18:14 AM  
I have to tell you, brother, a bus full of kids from various religions is not the place to push your Christianity. We have places for that already.
 
2013-11-07 08:18:17 AM  
Only newsworthy if you believe in magical sky faeries and believe it's perfectly acceptable for delusional adults in positions of power to foist their mental aberrations on kids...

The rest of us would consider it perfectly natural for said psychological defect to be removed from said position...
 
2013-11-07 08:20:03 AM  
Nathaniel said he is not causing the kids any harm by praying with them, and that he has a right as a Christian to express his beliefs in this 'Christian' nation.

He does have the right to express his beliefs, what he doesn't have is the right, as an authority figure to children under his care, to impress those beliefs onto them.

'They are trying to take away every right the Christian has to express our Christian belief in this supposed to have been Christian nation,'

This guy would be the first one to protest if it was a Muslim leading a bus full of children in prayer.
 
2013-11-07 08:22:17 AM  
Good.
 
2013-11-07 08:22:40 AM  
He was given two written warnings and had his route changed once.

Firing him was the correct decision and was administered fairly.
 
2013-11-07 08:23:28 AM  
'I'm a preacher and that's what I do,' a defiant Nathaniel said

No, you're a bus driver, drive the farking bus and shut up.

miss diminutive: 'They are trying to take away every right the Christian has to express our Christian belief in this supposed to have been Christian nation,' he told the station

I.....don't even know where to begin with that sentence. Instead I'm just going to sigh, angrily.


especially because of: Gayla Colin, a bus driver for 13 years in the district, told the Star Tribune that her former colleague's actions were inappropriate, especially since many of the students are Muslim.


/would be ironic if he crashed the bus while praying for the kids safety because he was distracted.
 
2013-11-07 08:26:11 AM  

nulluspixiusdemonica: Only newsworthy if you believe in magical sky faeries and believe it's perfectly acceptable for delusional adults in positions of power to foist their mental aberrations on kids...

The rest of us would consider it perfectly natural for said psychological defect to be removed from said position...


positions of power? a bus driver?
 
2013-11-07 08:28:54 AM  
... I think I prefer the school bus driver I had when I was a kid.
Sure, he was senile, could drop dead behind the wheel any minute, and he liked to touch us kids a little too inappropriately - but he didn't do crap like this.
 
2013-11-07 08:29:10 AM  

KrispyKritter: nulluspixiusdemonica: Only newsworthy if you believe in magical sky faeries and believe it's perfectly acceptable for delusional adults in positions of power to foist their mental aberrations on kids...

The rest of us would consider it perfectly natural for said psychological defect to be removed from said position...

positions of power? a bus driver?


Mrs. Crabtree would like a word with you.
 
2013-11-07 08:29:51 AM  
I don't get how prayer isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your religion.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he talked out loud to a group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver talking out loud to a group of children.
 
2013-11-07 08:30:17 AM  

KrispyKritter: positions of power? a bus driver?


Children on a bus do not have to do what he says? Are they not taught to trust the adult that is put in charge of them? Are they not taught to do what he says?

Yes he is in a position of authority over these children for the duration of the bus ride and, yes, this is a position of power.
 
2013-11-07 08:31:31 AM  
He did it in Georgia and Wisconsin without issue (so far as he's said), now in Minnesota he was warned and then fired for it.  And now he's talking to the press about it.

This isn't someone to feel sorry for for getting fired.  This is someone taking a stand on an issue that they believe in.  Some will agree with him and some won't, but it's definitely disingenuous to call him a victim.  It's his fight, he chose to fight it, he'll live with the consequences, fine.

The laws about this stuff always favor one extreme or the other of a very grey issue.  Is there any harm in the bus driver leading prayer amongst children who may not all believe as he does?  Probably not.  Is there any great loss to the children not having a bus driver leading prayer?  Probably not.  School districts can't rely on every single parent being rational and responsible and secure in their own influence over their child, and under threat of expensive legal proceedings they go with the side of the argument that best protects them from being lawyered at.

These policies are less about any particular belief or philosophy and more about protection from people who are at the same time pitifully insecure and grotesquely self-important.  If this guy ends up suing I'd say he's one of those people.
 
2013-11-07 08:32:09 AM  

KrispyKritter: positions of power? a bus driver?


How about "authority"? Would "authority" make you feel less challenged?
 
2013-11-07 08:35:36 AM  
They said, "Don't hand me no lines and keep your Prayers to yourself"
 
2013-11-07 08:36:02 AM  

nulluspixiusdemonica: KrispyKritter: positions of power? a bus driver?

How about "authority"? Would "authority" make you feel less challenged?


laxallstars.com
 
2013-11-07 08:36:38 AM  

DubtodaIll: I don't get how prayer isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your religion.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he talked out loud to a group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver talking out loud to a group of children.


He was warned on multiple occasions, in writing, to stop what he was doing. His route was changed explicitly because of customer complaints.

He was fired for multiple reasons:

- complaints from the end customers (parents did not want him preaching to their children)
- complaints from the school (they did not want a person representing them preaching religion - violation of church and state)
- refusing to comply with explicit instructions from management

They gave him plenty of warning and were exceptionally patient with him. They had an employee who disobeys orders and alienates their customers. It was a simple business decision -  he deserved to be fired.
 
2013-11-07 08:38:50 AM  

DubtodaIll: I don't get how screaming random obscenities in front of a captive group of children isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your freedom of speech.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he screamed random obscenities in front of a captive group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver screaming random obscenities in front of a captive group of children.


Does that clear things up at all?

I'm guessing "no".
 
2013-11-07 08:40:55 AM  

DubtodaIll: I don't get how prayer isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your religion.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he talked out loud to a group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver talking out loud to a group of children.



On the one side, the driver is free to practice his religion. He can talk to Jesus all he wants. On the other side, it's a Christian pastor praying over a bunch of kids in what amounts to a locked room.
 
2013-11-07 08:44:28 AM  
Wait... the complaints were from the family of muslim students? Isn't their post 9/11 talking point that Christians, Jews and muzzies are all "People of the book"? So we can finally shut down yet another "Religion of Peace" lie? Cool.


// No sympathy bus driver dude. You were told you were breaking the rules, you were given several chances to knock it off.
 
2013-11-07 08:46:17 AM  

Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I don't get how prayer isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your religion.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he talked out loud to a group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver talking out loud to a group of children.

He was warned on multiple occasions, in writing, to stop what he was doing. His route was changed explicitly because of customer complaints.

He was fired for multiple reasons:

- complaints from the end customers (parents did not want him preaching to their children)
- complaints from the school (they did not want a person representing them preaching religion - violation of church and state)
- refusing to comply with explicit instructions from management

They gave him plenty of warning and were exceptionally patient with him. They had an employee who disobeys orders and alienates their customers. It was a simple business decision -  he deserved to be fired.


I can see if the guy was being insubordinate.  But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion?  If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver.  I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong.  Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.
 
2013-11-07 08:48:27 AM  
OnlyM3

Wait... the complaints were from the family of muslim students?

Where'd you get that?

Isn't their post 9/11 talking point that Christians, Jews and muzzies are all "People of the book"? So we can finally shut down yet another "Religion of Peace" lie? Cool.

So much facepalm.
 
2013-11-07 08:49:04 AM  
Farking Canuck

He was fired for multiple reasons:

- complaints from the end customers (parents did not want him preaching to their children)
- complaints from the school (they did not want a person representing them preaching religion - violation of church and state)
- refusing to comply with explicit instructions from management

They gave him plenty of warning and were exceptionally patient with him. They had an employee who disobeys orders and alienates their customers. It was a simple business decision - he deserved to be fired.
Agreed. I just have to wonder if FARK would be so unified in this belief if the reports were complaints about him telling the kids to vote obama.
 
2013-11-07 08:49:47 AM  

DubtodaIll: I can see if the guy was being insubordinate. But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion? If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver. I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong. Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.


Aside from the fact that you are ignoring the 3 reasons I listed for his firing ... please answer this:

How about you explain to me why a company should not be allowed to fire an employee who is pissing off their customers and refusing to stop after they've asked him twice, in writing, to stop??
 
2013-11-07 08:50:26 AM  
If only there could be somewhere that those who share a particular faith could meet and pray together, on a regular basis? Perhaps weekly, or even twice a week? Somewhere they could share their ideas in a safe, supportive environment. Maybe a few radio stations, television channels, books, etc., that they could enjoy as an alternative to secular society? But, of course, these are just fantastical ideas. They have no choice but to roam the spiritual wasteland, "witnessing" to anyone and everyone, anywhere and everywhere. If only...
 
2013-11-07 08:52:06 AM  
DubtodaIll

But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion?

Not sure if serious.

If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver.

Or tell the bus driver to shut up. He has a right to follow whatever religion he wants; he doesn't have a right to make people sit there and listen to him. And no, not riding the bus to school isn't the answer, the Christian shutting up is.
 
2013-11-07 08:52:21 AM  

markfara: "Then I will pray and ask them if they want to join me in prayer. Just give them something constructive and positive to go to school with."

And you are the sole arbiter of what is positive and what is not, am I right?

Religious people are such f*cking narcissists.


Some of them even think "god" is "on their side". Jesus...
 
2013-11-07 08:55:37 AM  
img.fark.net

Dude needs to ease up on the Soul Glo
 
2013-11-07 08:57:00 AM  

DubtodaIll:  they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong


Bully for you, but still a complete misrepresentation of the facts. The *only* one injuring his "ability to survive" is himself and his delusions..

Not forgetting the professional victim complex....
 
2013-11-07 08:57:53 AM  
Could be worse, he could go with 'Wheels on the bus goes round and round...' and do that song everyday on a loop.

Rinse and repeat.
 
2013-11-07 09:01:36 AM  

Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I don't get how prayer isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your religion.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he talked out loud to a group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver talking out loud to a group of children.

He was warned on multiple occasions, in writing, to stop what he was doing. His route was changed explicitly because of customer complaints.

He was fired for multiple reasons:

- complaints from the end customers (parents did not want him preaching to their children)
- complaints from the school (they did not want a person representing them preaching religion - violation of church and state)
- refusing to comply with explicit instructions from management

They gave him plenty of warning and were exceptionally patient with him. They had an employee who disobeys orders and alienates their customers. It was a simple business decision -  he deserved to be fired.


This. Sometimes you have to know when to stfu.

As for the first Amendment issue, you're right. He has the freedom to pray however, whenever. What he doesn't don't have the right to do is force someone else to pray along with him. He could have just said his little safety prayer under his breath and kept it moving.

I get that he wanted to send the kids off to school with something "positive". But honestly, this obviously wasn't a positive experience for some of those kids. They complained to their parents, they complained to his boss - he felt he wasn't doing anything wrong, but he was mistaken. Foisting your religion off on others is bad manners in any setting where that's not what someone didn't sign up to be preached too.

If my employees have bad manners, I would eventually fire them too.

I just realized why I hate Jehovah's witnesses ambushing me at my own door.
 
2013-11-07 09:03:41 AM  

DubtodaIll: Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I don't get how prayer isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your religion.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he talked out loud to a group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver talking out loud to a group of children.

He was warned on multiple occasions, in writing, to stop what he was doing. His route was changed explicitly because of customer complaints.

He was fired for multiple reasons:

- complaints from the end customers (parents did not want him preaching to their children)
- complaints from the school (they did not want a person representing them preaching religion - violation of church and state)
- refusing to comply with explicit instructions from management

They gave him plenty of warning and were exceptionally patient with him. They had an employee who disobeys orders and alienates their customers. It was a simple business decision -  he deserved to be fired.

I can see if the guy was being insubordinate.  But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion?  If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver.  I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong.  Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.


I hope this isn't sincere.
 
2013-11-07 09:05:03 AM  

Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I can see if the guy was being insubordinate. But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion? If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver. I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong. Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.

Aside from the fact that you are ignoring the 3 reasons I listed for his firing ... please answer this:

How about you explain to me why a company should not be allowed to fire an employee who is pissing off their customers and refusing to stop after they've asked him twice, in writing, to stop??


Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate.  However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize.  Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends.  That's freedom.
 
2013-11-07 09:05:55 AM  
OnlyM3:
Agreed. I just have to wonder if FARK would be so unified in this belief if the reports were complaints about him telling the kids to vote obama.

You obviously missed the outcries around every election time of teachers and workplace bosses pushing their political beliefs on students/employees.
 
2013-11-07 09:07:16 AM  

MycroftHolmes: DubtodaIll: Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I don't get how prayer isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your religion.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he talked out loud to a group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver talking out loud to a group of children.

He was warned on multiple occasions, in writing, to stop what he was doing. His route was changed explicitly because of customer complaints.

He was fired for multiple reasons:

- complaints from the end customers (parents did not want him preaching to their children)
- complaints from the school (they did not want a person representing them preaching religion - violation of church and state)
- refusing to comply with explicit instructions from management

They gave him plenty of warning and were exceptionally patient with him. They had an employee who disobeys orders and alienates their customers. It was a simple business decision -  he deserved to be fired.

I can see if the guy was being insubordinate.  But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion?  If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver.  I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong.  Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.

I hope this isn't sincere.


Shouldn't you be gleeful for the opportunity to deride someone who disagrees with you?
 
2013-11-07 09:07:27 AM  
'I'm a preacher and that's what I do,'

Well go be a preacher, then. I have a problem with letting authority figures have a captive audience that isn't old enough to mount a sophisticated defense against your kind of bullshiat.
 
2013-11-07 09:08:30 AM  

mokinokaro: OnlyM3:
Agreed. I just have to wonder if FARK would be so unified in this belief if the reports were complaints about him telling the kids to vote obama.

You obviously missed the outcries around every election time of teachers and workplace bosses pushing their political beliefs on students/employees.


Outcries are fine, how many people got fired for it?
 
2013-11-07 09:09:44 AM  

Madaynun: They said, "Don't hand me no lines and keep your Prayers to yourself"


A++

Would LOL again

/from Georgia
//not a country fan, though
///but that was goddamn funny
 
2013-11-07 09:15:20 AM  

pxlboy: Madaynun: They said, "Don't hand me no lines and keep your Prayers to yourself"

A++

Would LOL again

/from Georgia
//not a country fan, though
///but that was goddamn funny


song was from a band that was played primarily on rock stations. southern rock is similar to but not exactly country. yes, i do understand how it's easy to confuse the 2...some country is essentially southern rock and vice versa...

but my point is, if you listened to rock (especially those specializing in classic and/or southern rock) stations in the time that song was popular, you would've heard it, just like you would've heard skynyrd
 
2013-11-07 09:15:23 AM  

OnlyM3: Farking Canuck

He was fired for multiple reasons:

- complaints from the end customers (parents did not want him preaching to their children)
- complaints from the school (they did not want a person representing them preaching religion - violation of church and state)
- refusing to comply with explicit instructions from management

They gave him plenty of warning and were exceptionally patient with him. They had an employee who disobeys orders and alienates their customers. It was a simple business decision - he deserved to be fired.Agreed. I just have to wonder if FARK would be so unified in this belief if the reports were complaints about him telling the kids to vote obama.



What office is Obama running for at the moment?
 
2013-11-07 09:17:51 AM  

DubtodaIll: Shouldn't you be gleeful for the opportunity to deride someone who disagrees with you?


Usually, yes.  But misguided comments this far off base just make me sad.  It is not even fun to argue with them, any more than it is fun to kick puppies.
 
2013-11-07 09:17:58 AM  

bungle_jr: pxlboy: Madaynun: They said, "Don't hand me no lines and keep your Prayers to yourself"

A++

Would LOL again

/from Georgia
//not a country fan, though
///but that was goddamn funny

song was from a band that was played primarily on rock stations. southern rock is similar to but not exactly country. yes, i do understand how it's easy to confuse the 2...some country is essentially southern rock and vice versa...

but my point is, if you listened to rock (especially those specializing in classic and/or southern rock) stations in the time that song was popular, you would've heard it, just like you would've heard skynyrd


Full disclaimer: I grew up in Marietta (county seat of Cobb Co)and to my ears, country and southern rock are two sides of the same coin. As you might imagine, I heard plenty of both growing up.

Not hating or judging, but that's just how it sounds to me.

Also, that song is in my head now, thanks lol
 
2013-11-07 09:19:35 AM  

OnlyM3: Wait... the complaints were from the family of muslim students? Isn't their post 9/11 talking point that Christians, Jews and muzzies are all "People of the book"? So we can finally shut down yet another "Religion of Peace" lie? Cool.


// No sympathy bus driver dude. You were told you were breaking the rules, you were given several chances to knock it off.


I know, it's so unreasonable for a Muslim parent to now want their Muslim child to be preached at by a Christian when they're sending their kid to a secular school.
 
2013-11-07 09:20:57 AM  
*not*
 
2013-11-07 09:22:04 AM  

DubtodaIll: Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I can see if the guy was being insubordinate. But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion? If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver. I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong. Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.

Aside from the fact that you are ignoring the 3 reasons I listed for his firing ... please answer this:

How about you explain to me why a company should not be allowed to fire an employee who is pissing off their customers and refusing to stop after they've asked him twice, in writing, to stop??

Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate.  However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize.  Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends.  That's freedom.


No, your right to pray does not extend to using a position of authority to forcibly lead other people's children in prayer. You nutjob.
 
2013-11-07 09:22:30 AM  

MycroftHolmes: DubtodaIll: Shouldn't you be gleeful for the opportunity to deride someone who disagrees with you?

Usually, yes.  But misguided comments this far off base just make me sad.  It is not even fun to argue with them, any more than it is fun to kick puppies.


Also, most people will refuse to initiate a confrontation. They can talk some shiat online, but are reluctant to speak out in situations like these; it becomes very awkward and uncomfortable to the ones on the receiving end of such proselytizing.

In the south, we got plenty of that nonsense both in and out of the classroom. I recall one teacher blabbering about "the Bible Belt" being the only thing saving America from destruction (sic)".

Yeah, I can see why the complaints came in.

Some are already trotting out the First Amendment as though it has anything to do with this case. You are free to say what you like, but are not free from the consequences.
 
2013-11-07 09:25:01 AM  

pxlboy: bungle_jr: pxlboy: Madaynun: They said, "Don't hand me no lines and keep your Prayers to yourself"

A++

Would LOL again

/from Georgia
//not a country fan, though
///but that was goddamn funny

song was from a band that was played primarily on rock stations. southern rock is similar to but not exactly country. yes, i do understand how it's easy to confuse the 2...some country is essentially southern rock and vice versa...

but my point is, if you listened to rock (especially those specializing in classic and/or southern rock) stations in the time that song was popular, you would've heard it, just like you would've heard skynyrd

Full disclaimer: I grew up in Marietta (county seat of Cobb Co)and to my ears, country and southern rock are two sides of the same coin. As you might imagine, I heard plenty of both growing up.

Not hating or judging, but that's just how it sounds to me.

Also, that song is in my head now, thanks lol


can't say i disagree
also, i've been to marietta. actually got my first tattoo there. and there is (was?) an eastern european restaurant (can't remember the specific nationality) downtown that was good
this was in 2003 i believe. i was there for a couple weeks of training at the reserve airbase
 
2013-11-07 09:27:26 AM  

DubtodaIll: Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate. However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize. Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends. That's freedom.


1. Separation of Church and state.  The bus was effectively an extension of the school
2. Interfered with his ability to do his job (see above)
3. Your rights end where mine begin.  Your right to freedom of religion ends when it involves using your position to pressure children into adopting practices of a religion.
4. Insubordination-which you concede and should have been the end of the argument.

This is a clean fire from so many angles that it is ridiculous.  Freedoms have to be balanced against individuals.  Your freedom of religion cannot infringe on mine.
 
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