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(Daily Mail)   ♫ The prayers on the bus will get you fired. Get you fired. Get you fired. ♫   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 145
    More: Dumbass, Infraction, supreme court ruling, WCCO, prayers, Supreme Court, preachers, Durham School Services, 1st amendment  
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3953 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Nov 2013 at 8:11 AM (44 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



145 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-11-07 08:13:41 AM
All through the town.
 
2013-11-07 08:16:24 AM
'They are trying to take away every right the Christian has to express our Christian belief in this supposed to have been Christian nation,' he told the station

I.....don't even know where to begin with that sentence. Instead I'm just going to sigh, angrily.
 
2013-11-07 08:18:02 AM
"Then I will pray and ask them if they want to join me in prayer. Just give them something constructive and positive to go to school with."

And you are the sole arbiter of what is positive and what is not, am I right?

Religious people are such f*cking narcissists.
 
2013-11-07 08:18:14 AM
I have to tell you, brother, a bus full of kids from various religions is not the place to push your Christianity. We have places for that already.
 
2013-11-07 08:18:17 AM
Only newsworthy if you believe in magical sky faeries and believe it's perfectly acceptable for delusional adults in positions of power to foist their mental aberrations on kids...

The rest of us would consider it perfectly natural for said psychological defect to be removed from said position...
 
2013-11-07 08:20:03 AM
Nathaniel said he is not causing the kids any harm by praying with them, and that he has a right as a Christian to express his beliefs in this 'Christian' nation.

He does have the right to express his beliefs, what he doesn't have is the right, as an authority figure to children under his care, to impress those beliefs onto them.

'They are trying to take away every right the Christian has to express our Christian belief in this supposed to have been Christian nation,'

This guy would be the first one to protest if it was a Muslim leading a bus full of children in prayer.
 
2013-11-07 08:22:17 AM
Good.
 
2013-11-07 08:22:40 AM
He was given two written warnings and had his route changed once.

Firing him was the correct decision and was administered fairly.
 
2013-11-07 08:23:28 AM
'I'm a preacher and that's what I do,' a defiant Nathaniel said

No, you're a bus driver, drive the farking bus and shut up.

miss diminutive: 'They are trying to take away every right the Christian has to express our Christian belief in this supposed to have been Christian nation,' he told the station

I.....don't even know where to begin with that sentence. Instead I'm just going to sigh, angrily.


especially because of: Gayla Colin, a bus driver for 13 years in the district, told the Star Tribune that her former colleague's actions were inappropriate, especially since many of the students are Muslim.


/would be ironic if he crashed the bus while praying for the kids safety because he was distracted.
 
2013-11-07 08:26:11 AM

nulluspixiusdemonica: Only newsworthy if you believe in magical sky faeries and believe it's perfectly acceptable for delusional adults in positions of power to foist their mental aberrations on kids...

The rest of us would consider it perfectly natural for said psychological defect to be removed from said position...


positions of power? a bus driver?
 
2013-11-07 08:28:54 AM
... I think I prefer the school bus driver I had when I was a kid.
Sure, he was senile, could drop dead behind the wheel any minute, and he liked to touch us kids a little too inappropriately - but he didn't do crap like this.
 
2013-11-07 08:29:10 AM

KrispyKritter: nulluspixiusdemonica: Only newsworthy if you believe in magical sky faeries and believe it's perfectly acceptable for delusional adults in positions of power to foist their mental aberrations on kids...

The rest of us would consider it perfectly natural for said psychological defect to be removed from said position...

positions of power? a bus driver?


Mrs. Crabtree would like a word with you.
 
2013-11-07 08:29:51 AM
I don't get how prayer isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your religion.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he talked out loud to a group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver talking out loud to a group of children.
 
2013-11-07 08:30:17 AM

KrispyKritter: positions of power? a bus driver?


Children on a bus do not have to do what he says? Are they not taught to trust the adult that is put in charge of them? Are they not taught to do what he says?

Yes he is in a position of authority over these children for the duration of the bus ride and, yes, this is a position of power.
 
2013-11-07 08:31:31 AM
He did it in Georgia and Wisconsin without issue (so far as he's said), now in Minnesota he was warned and then fired for it.  And now he's talking to the press about it.

This isn't someone to feel sorry for for getting fired.  This is someone taking a stand on an issue that they believe in.  Some will agree with him and some won't, but it's definitely disingenuous to call him a victim.  It's his fight, he chose to fight it, he'll live with the consequences, fine.

The laws about this stuff always favor one extreme or the other of a very grey issue.  Is there any harm in the bus driver leading prayer amongst children who may not all believe as he does?  Probably not.  Is there any great loss to the children not having a bus driver leading prayer?  Probably not.  School districts can't rely on every single parent being rational and responsible and secure in their own influence over their child, and under threat of expensive legal proceedings they go with the side of the argument that best protects them from being lawyered at.

These policies are less about any particular belief or philosophy and more about protection from people who are at the same time pitifully insecure and grotesquely self-important.  If this guy ends up suing I'd say he's one of those people.
 
2013-11-07 08:32:09 AM

KrispyKritter: positions of power? a bus driver?


How about "authority"? Would "authority" make you feel less challenged?
 
2013-11-07 08:35:36 AM
They said, "Don't hand me no lines and keep your Prayers to yourself"
 
2013-11-07 08:36:02 AM

nulluspixiusdemonica: KrispyKritter: positions of power? a bus driver?

How about "authority"? Would "authority" make you feel less challenged?


laxallstars.com
 
2013-11-07 08:36:38 AM

DubtodaIll: I don't get how prayer isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your religion.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he talked out loud to a group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver talking out loud to a group of children.


He was warned on multiple occasions, in writing, to stop what he was doing. His route was changed explicitly because of customer complaints.

He was fired for multiple reasons:

- complaints from the end customers (parents did not want him preaching to their children)
- complaints from the school (they did not want a person representing them preaching religion - violation of church and state)
- refusing to comply with explicit instructions from management

They gave him plenty of warning and were exceptionally patient with him. They had an employee who disobeys orders and alienates their customers. It was a simple business decision -  he deserved to be fired.
 
2013-11-07 08:38:50 AM

DubtodaIll: I don't get how screaming random obscenities in front of a captive group of children isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your freedom of speech.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he screamed random obscenities in front of a captive group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver screaming random obscenities in front of a captive group of children.


Does that clear things up at all?

I'm guessing "no".
 
2013-11-07 08:40:55 AM

DubtodaIll: I don't get how prayer isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your religion.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he talked out loud to a group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver talking out loud to a group of children.



On the one side, the driver is free to practice his religion. He can talk to Jesus all he wants. On the other side, it's a Christian pastor praying over a bunch of kids in what amounts to a locked room.
 
2013-11-07 08:44:28 AM
Wait... the complaints were from the family of muslim students? Isn't their post 9/11 talking point that Christians, Jews and muzzies are all "People of the book"? So we can finally shut down yet another "Religion of Peace" lie? Cool.


// No sympathy bus driver dude. You were told you were breaking the rules, you were given several chances to knock it off.
 
2013-11-07 08:46:17 AM

Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I don't get how prayer isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your religion.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he talked out loud to a group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver talking out loud to a group of children.

He was warned on multiple occasions, in writing, to stop what he was doing. His route was changed explicitly because of customer complaints.

He was fired for multiple reasons:

- complaints from the end customers (parents did not want him preaching to their children)
- complaints from the school (they did not want a person representing them preaching religion - violation of church and state)
- refusing to comply with explicit instructions from management

They gave him plenty of warning and were exceptionally patient with him. They had an employee who disobeys orders and alienates their customers. It was a simple business decision -  he deserved to be fired.


I can see if the guy was being insubordinate.  But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion?  If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver.  I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong.  Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.
 
2013-11-07 08:48:27 AM
OnlyM3

Wait... the complaints were from the family of muslim students?

Where'd you get that?

Isn't their post 9/11 talking point that Christians, Jews and muzzies are all "People of the book"? So we can finally shut down yet another "Religion of Peace" lie? Cool.

So much facepalm.
 
2013-11-07 08:49:04 AM
Farking Canuck

He was fired for multiple reasons:

- complaints from the end customers (parents did not want him preaching to their children)
- complaints from the school (they did not want a person representing them preaching religion - violation of church and state)
- refusing to comply with explicit instructions from management

They gave him plenty of warning and were exceptionally patient with him. They had an employee who disobeys orders and alienates their customers. It was a simple business decision - he deserved to be fired.
Agreed. I just have to wonder if FARK would be so unified in this belief if the reports were complaints about him telling the kids to vote obama.
 
2013-11-07 08:49:47 AM

DubtodaIll: I can see if the guy was being insubordinate. But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion? If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver. I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong. Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.


Aside from the fact that you are ignoring the 3 reasons I listed for his firing ... please answer this:

How about you explain to me why a company should not be allowed to fire an employee who is pissing off their customers and refusing to stop after they've asked him twice, in writing, to stop??
 
2013-11-07 08:50:26 AM
If only there could be somewhere that those who share a particular faith could meet and pray together, on a regular basis? Perhaps weekly, or even twice a week? Somewhere they could share their ideas in a safe, supportive environment. Maybe a few radio stations, television channels, books, etc., that they could enjoy as an alternative to secular society? But, of course, these are just fantastical ideas. They have no choice but to roam the spiritual wasteland, "witnessing" to anyone and everyone, anywhere and everywhere. If only...
 
2013-11-07 08:52:06 AM
DubtodaIll

But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion?

Not sure if serious.

If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver.

Or tell the bus driver to shut up. He has a right to follow whatever religion he wants; he doesn't have a right to make people sit there and listen to him. And no, not riding the bus to school isn't the answer, the Christian shutting up is.
 
2013-11-07 08:52:21 AM

markfara: "Then I will pray and ask them if they want to join me in prayer. Just give them something constructive and positive to go to school with."

And you are the sole arbiter of what is positive and what is not, am I right?

Religious people are such f*cking narcissists.


Some of them even think "god" is "on their side". Jesus...
 
2013-11-07 08:55:37 AM
img.fark.net

Dude needs to ease up on the Soul Glo
 
2013-11-07 08:57:00 AM

DubtodaIll:  they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong


Bully for you, but still a complete misrepresentation of the facts. The *only* one injuring his "ability to survive" is himself and his delusions..

Not forgetting the professional victim complex....
 
2013-11-07 08:57:53 AM
Could be worse, he could go with 'Wheels on the bus goes round and round...' and do that song everyday on a loop.

Rinse and repeat.
 
2013-11-07 09:01:36 AM

Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I don't get how prayer isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your religion.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he talked out loud to a group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver talking out loud to a group of children.

He was warned on multiple occasions, in writing, to stop what he was doing. His route was changed explicitly because of customer complaints.

He was fired for multiple reasons:

- complaints from the end customers (parents did not want him preaching to their children)
- complaints from the school (they did not want a person representing them preaching religion - violation of church and state)
- refusing to comply with explicit instructions from management

They gave him plenty of warning and were exceptionally patient with him. They had an employee who disobeys orders and alienates their customers. It was a simple business decision -  he deserved to be fired.


This. Sometimes you have to know when to stfu.

As for the first Amendment issue, you're right. He has the freedom to pray however, whenever. What he doesn't don't have the right to do is force someone else to pray along with him. He could have just said his little safety prayer under his breath and kept it moving.

I get that he wanted to send the kids off to school with something "positive". But honestly, this obviously wasn't a positive experience for some of those kids. They complained to their parents, they complained to his boss - he felt he wasn't doing anything wrong, but he was mistaken. Foisting your religion off on others is bad manners in any setting where that's not what someone didn't sign up to be preached too.

If my employees have bad manners, I would eventually fire them too.

I just realized why I hate Jehovah's witnesses ambushing me at my own door.
 
2013-11-07 09:03:41 AM

DubtodaIll: Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I don't get how prayer isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your religion.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he talked out loud to a group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver talking out loud to a group of children.

He was warned on multiple occasions, in writing, to stop what he was doing. His route was changed explicitly because of customer complaints.

He was fired for multiple reasons:

- complaints from the end customers (parents did not want him preaching to their children)
- complaints from the school (they did not want a person representing them preaching religion - violation of church and state)
- refusing to comply with explicit instructions from management

They gave him plenty of warning and were exceptionally patient with him. They had an employee who disobeys orders and alienates their customers. It was a simple business decision -  he deserved to be fired.

I can see if the guy was being insubordinate.  But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion?  If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver.  I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong.  Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.


I hope this isn't sincere.
 
2013-11-07 09:05:03 AM

Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I can see if the guy was being insubordinate. But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion? If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver. I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong. Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.

Aside from the fact that you are ignoring the 3 reasons I listed for his firing ... please answer this:

How about you explain to me why a company should not be allowed to fire an employee who is pissing off their customers and refusing to stop after they've asked him twice, in writing, to stop??


Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate.  However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize.  Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends.  That's freedom.
 
2013-11-07 09:05:55 AM
OnlyM3:
Agreed. I just have to wonder if FARK would be so unified in this belief if the reports were complaints about him telling the kids to vote obama.

You obviously missed the outcries around every election time of teachers and workplace bosses pushing their political beliefs on students/employees.
 
2013-11-07 09:07:16 AM

MycroftHolmes: DubtodaIll: Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I don't get how prayer isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your religion.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he talked out loud to a group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver talking out loud to a group of children.

He was warned on multiple occasions, in writing, to stop what he was doing. His route was changed explicitly because of customer complaints.

He was fired for multiple reasons:

- complaints from the end customers (parents did not want him preaching to their children)
- complaints from the school (they did not want a person representing them preaching religion - violation of church and state)
- refusing to comply with explicit instructions from management

They gave him plenty of warning and were exceptionally patient with him. They had an employee who disobeys orders and alienates their customers. It was a simple business decision -  he deserved to be fired.

I can see if the guy was being insubordinate.  But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion?  If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver.  I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong.  Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.

I hope this isn't sincere.


Shouldn't you be gleeful for the opportunity to deride someone who disagrees with you?
 
2013-11-07 09:07:27 AM
'I'm a preacher and that's what I do,'

Well go be a preacher, then. I have a problem with letting authority figures have a captive audience that isn't old enough to mount a sophisticated defense against your kind of bullshiat.
 
2013-11-07 09:08:30 AM

mokinokaro: OnlyM3:
Agreed. I just have to wonder if FARK would be so unified in this belief if the reports were complaints about him telling the kids to vote obama.

You obviously missed the outcries around every election time of teachers and workplace bosses pushing their political beliefs on students/employees.


Outcries are fine, how many people got fired for it?
 
2013-11-07 09:09:44 AM

Madaynun: They said, "Don't hand me no lines and keep your Prayers to yourself"


A++

Would LOL again

/from Georgia
//not a country fan, though
///but that was goddamn funny
 
2013-11-07 09:15:20 AM

pxlboy: Madaynun: They said, "Don't hand me no lines and keep your Prayers to yourself"

A++

Would LOL again

/from Georgia
//not a country fan, though
///but that was goddamn funny


song was from a band that was played primarily on rock stations. southern rock is similar to but not exactly country. yes, i do understand how it's easy to confuse the 2...some country is essentially southern rock and vice versa...

but my point is, if you listened to rock (especially those specializing in classic and/or southern rock) stations in the time that song was popular, you would've heard it, just like you would've heard skynyrd
 
2013-11-07 09:15:23 AM

OnlyM3: Farking Canuck

He was fired for multiple reasons:

- complaints from the end customers (parents did not want him preaching to their children)
- complaints from the school (they did not want a person representing them preaching religion - violation of church and state)
- refusing to comply with explicit instructions from management

They gave him plenty of warning and were exceptionally patient with him. They had an employee who disobeys orders and alienates their customers. It was a simple business decision - he deserved to be fired.Agreed. I just have to wonder if FARK would be so unified in this belief if the reports were complaints about him telling the kids to vote obama.



What office is Obama running for at the moment?
 
2013-11-07 09:17:51 AM

DubtodaIll: Shouldn't you be gleeful for the opportunity to deride someone who disagrees with you?


Usually, yes.  But misguided comments this far off base just make me sad.  It is not even fun to argue with them, any more than it is fun to kick puppies.
 
2013-11-07 09:17:58 AM

bungle_jr: pxlboy: Madaynun: They said, "Don't hand me no lines and keep your Prayers to yourself"

A++

Would LOL again

/from Georgia
//not a country fan, though
///but that was goddamn funny

song was from a band that was played primarily on rock stations. southern rock is similar to but not exactly country. yes, i do understand how it's easy to confuse the 2...some country is essentially southern rock and vice versa...

but my point is, if you listened to rock (especially those specializing in classic and/or southern rock) stations in the time that song was popular, you would've heard it, just like you would've heard skynyrd


Full disclaimer: I grew up in Marietta (county seat of Cobb Co)and to my ears, country and southern rock are two sides of the same coin. As you might imagine, I heard plenty of both growing up.

Not hating or judging, but that's just how it sounds to me.

Also, that song is in my head now, thanks lol
 
2013-11-07 09:19:35 AM

OnlyM3: Wait... the complaints were from the family of muslim students? Isn't their post 9/11 talking point that Christians, Jews and muzzies are all "People of the book"? So we can finally shut down yet another "Religion of Peace" lie? Cool.


// No sympathy bus driver dude. You were told you were breaking the rules, you were given several chances to knock it off.


I know, it's so unreasonable for a Muslim parent to now want their Muslim child to be preached at by a Christian when they're sending their kid to a secular school.
 
2013-11-07 09:20:57 AM
*not*
 
2013-11-07 09:22:04 AM

DubtodaIll: Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I can see if the guy was being insubordinate. But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion? If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver. I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong. Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.

Aside from the fact that you are ignoring the 3 reasons I listed for his firing ... please answer this:

How about you explain to me why a company should not be allowed to fire an employee who is pissing off their customers and refusing to stop after they've asked him twice, in writing, to stop??

Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate.  However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize.  Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends.  That's freedom.


No, your right to pray does not extend to using a position of authority to forcibly lead other people's children in prayer. You nutjob.
 
2013-11-07 09:22:30 AM

MycroftHolmes: DubtodaIll: Shouldn't you be gleeful for the opportunity to deride someone who disagrees with you?

Usually, yes.  But misguided comments this far off base just make me sad.  It is not even fun to argue with them, any more than it is fun to kick puppies.


Also, most people will refuse to initiate a confrontation. They can talk some shiat online, but are reluctant to speak out in situations like these; it becomes very awkward and uncomfortable to the ones on the receiving end of such proselytizing.

In the south, we got plenty of that nonsense both in and out of the classroom. I recall one teacher blabbering about "the Bible Belt" being the only thing saving America from destruction (sic)".

Yeah, I can see why the complaints came in.

Some are already trotting out the First Amendment as though it has anything to do with this case. You are free to say what you like, but are not free from the consequences.
 
2013-11-07 09:25:01 AM

pxlboy: bungle_jr: pxlboy: Madaynun: They said, "Don't hand me no lines and keep your Prayers to yourself"

A++

Would LOL again

/from Georgia
//not a country fan, though
///but that was goddamn funny

song was from a band that was played primarily on rock stations. southern rock is similar to but not exactly country. yes, i do understand how it's easy to confuse the 2...some country is essentially southern rock and vice versa...

but my point is, if you listened to rock (especially those specializing in classic and/or southern rock) stations in the time that song was popular, you would've heard it, just like you would've heard skynyrd

Full disclaimer: I grew up in Marietta (county seat of Cobb Co)and to my ears, country and southern rock are two sides of the same coin. As you might imagine, I heard plenty of both growing up.

Not hating or judging, but that's just how it sounds to me.

Also, that song is in my head now, thanks lol


can't say i disagree
also, i've been to marietta. actually got my first tattoo there. and there is (was?) an eastern european restaurant (can't remember the specific nationality) downtown that was good
this was in 2003 i believe. i was there for a couple weeks of training at the reserve airbase
 
2013-11-07 09:27:26 AM

DubtodaIll: Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate. However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize. Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends. That's freedom.


1. Separation of Church and state.  The bus was effectively an extension of the school
2. Interfered with his ability to do his job (see above)
3. Your rights end where mine begin.  Your right to freedom of religion ends when it involves using your position to pressure children into adopting practices of a religion.
4. Insubordination-which you concede and should have been the end of the argument.

This is a clean fire from so many angles that it is ridiculous.  Freedoms have to be balanced against individuals.  Your freedom of religion cannot infringe on mine.
 
2013-11-07 09:30:36 AM

threedingers: OnlyM3: Wait... the complaints were from the family of muslim students? Isn't their post 9/11 talking point that Christians, Jews and muzzies are all "People of the book"? So we can finally shut down yet another "Religion of Peace" lie? Cool.


// No sympathy bus driver dude. You were told you were breaking the rules, you were given several chances to knock it off.

I know, it's so unreasonable for a Muslim parent to now want their Muslim child to be preached at by a Christian when they're sending their kid to a secular school.


I see your sarcasm, but Christianity is not the only religion practiced in this country. Muslim parents would have every right to be upset. Same goes for Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, Mormons, etc.

Being the majority religion does not excuse this kind of nonsense. American Christians seem to think that this majority somehow entitles them to foist their beliefs on others.

What really gets me, though, is how often they play the persecution card when they're rebuffed.
 
2013-11-07 09:32:24 AM

MycroftHolmes: DubtodaIll: Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate. However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize. Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends. That's freedom.

1. Separation of Church and state.  The bus was effectively an extension of the school
2. Interfered with his ability to do his job (see above)
3. Your rights end where mine begin.  Your right to freedom of religion ends when it involves using your position to pressure children into adopting practices of a religion.
4. Insubordination-which you concede and should have been the end of the argument.

This is a clean fire from so many angles that it is ridiculous.  Freedoms have to be balanced against individuals.  Your freedom of religion cannot infringe on mine.


So very much this.
 
2013-11-07 09:33:05 AM

MycroftHolmes: DubtodaIll: Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate. However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize. Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends. That's freedom.

1. Separation of Church and state.  The bus was effectively an extension of the school
2. Interfered with his ability to do his job (see above)
3. Your rights end where mine begin.  Your right to freedom of religion ends when it involves using your position to pressure children into adopting practices of a religion.
4. Insubordination-which you concede and should have been the end of the argument.

This is a clean fire from so many angles that it is ridiculous.  Freedoms have to be balanced against individuals.  Your freedom of religion cannot infringe on mine.


all of this, but especially the highlighted, which is the main reason he was fired...the insubordination came as a result of ignoring this rule and the administration's warnings against his violations

and come on christians...stating over and over again that we are a "christian nation" does not make it true! we are NOT a christian nation. truth = we have had christianity as a majority. but we are not a "christian" nation. saudi arabia is a muslim nation. we are a MUCH different country than they are. if we were a "christian" nation, we would be a lot more like saudi arabia, with a different diety.
 
2013-11-07 09:33:25 AM

bungle_jr: pxlboy: bungle_jr: pxlboy: Madaynun: They said, "Don't hand me no lines and keep your Prayers to yourself"

A++

Would LOL again

/from Georgia
//not a country fan, though
///but that was goddamn funny

song was from a band that was played primarily on rock stations. southern rock is similar to but not exactly country. yes, i do understand how it's easy to confuse the 2...some country is essentially southern rock and vice versa...

but my point is, if you listened to rock (especially those specializing in classic and/or southern rock) stations in the time that song was popular, you would've heard it, just like you would've heard skynyrd

Full disclaimer: I grew up in Marietta (county seat of Cobb Co)and to my ears, country and southern rock are two sides of the same coin. As you might imagine, I heard plenty of both growing up.

Not hating or judging, but that's just how it sounds to me.

Also, that song is in my head now, thanks lol

can't say i disagree
also, i've been to marietta. actually got my first tattoo there. and there is (was?) an eastern european restaurant (can't remember the specific nationality) downtown that was good
this was in 2003 i believe. i was there for a couple weeks of training at the reserve airbase


Right on. Can you remember the name of the restaurant?

The only one I can think of is out towards Roswell called 'Latka'.
 
2013-11-07 09:33:43 AM
FTFA: 'I'm a preacher and that's what I do'

That fine, except you were hired as a bus driver not a preacher, and what you are supposed to do for that job is drive the farking bus.
I wouldn't have a problem with you saying a quiet prayer to yourself before driving the bus, but the solicitation is the issue.  If you were preaching on the front lawn of your own property, kids would have the option to walk past you.  On a school bus they are an unwilling captive audience.  If you can't attract a congregation to preach to without trapping them on a bus, maybe you should re-evaluate your effectiveness as a preacher.
 
2013-11-07 09:38:21 AM

MycroftHolmes: DubtodaIll: Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate. However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize. Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends. That's freedom.

1. Separation of Church and state.  The bus was effectively an extension of the school
2. Interfered with his ability to do his job (see above)
3. Your rights end where mine begin.  Your right to freedom of religion ends when it involves using your position to pressure children into adopting practices of a religion.
4. Insubordination-which you concede and should have been the end of the argument.

This is a clean fire from so many angles that it is ridiculous.  Freedoms have to be balanced against individuals.  Your freedom of religion cannot infringe on mine.


Well, why not?  Rights overlap often in as diverse society as America. I'm all for open debate and conversation but affecting someone's livelihood is where I've got the issue.  It's a much smaller burden to tell your children to ignore the bus driver than it will be for this guy to find a job.  Teach your children to be strong in what they believe and to espouse those beliefs.  It would be a much more interesting story if it were for a kid talking down the bus driver, or well, for anyone to actually talk down someone who is espousing their faith.  That's something I've never seen anyone do in person.  Though I suppose the only way to stop it is to write laws and pass paper in order to end the behavior.
 
2013-11-07 09:38:30 AM

pxlboy: bungle_jr: pxlboy: bungle_jr: pxlboy: Madaynun: They said, "Don't hand me no lines and keep your Prayers to yourself"

A++

Would LOL again

/from Georgia
//not a country fan, though
///but that was goddamn funny

song was from a band that was played primarily on rock stations. southern rock is similar to but not exactly country. yes, i do understand how it's easy to confuse the 2...some country is essentially southern rock and vice versa...

but my point is, if you listened to rock (especially those specializing in classic and/or southern rock) stations in the time that song was popular, you would've heard it, just like you would've heard skynyrd

Full disclaimer: I grew up in Marietta (county seat of Cobb Co)and to my ears, country and southern rock are two sides of the same coin. As you might imagine, I heard plenty of both growing up.

Not hating or judging, but that's just how it sounds to me.

Also, that song is in my head now, thanks lol

can't say i disagree
also, i've been to marietta. actually got my first tattoo there. and there is (was?) an eastern european restaurant (can't remember the specific nationality) downtown that was good
this was in 2003 i believe. i was there for a couple weeks of training at the reserve airbase

Right on. Can you remember the name of the restaurant?

The only one I can think of is out towards Roswell called 'Latka'.


sorry, no all i can remember is it was some sort of eastern european cuisine, and it was in the historic downtown area. and it was tasty & not expensive. czech? polish? something like one of those nationalities.
 
2013-11-07 09:40:54 AM

DubtodaIll: MycroftHolmes: DubtodaIll: Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate. However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize. Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends. That's freedom.

1. Separation of Church and state.  The bus was effectively an extension of the school
2. Interfered with his ability to do his job (see above)
3. Your rights end where mine begin.  Your right to freedom of religion ends when it involves using your position to pressure children into adopting practices of a religion.
4. Insubordination-which you concede and should have been the end of the argument.

This is a clean fire from so many angles that it is ridiculous.  Freedoms have to be balanced against individuals.  Your freedom of religion cannot infringe on mine.

Well, why not?  Rights overlap often in as diverse society as America. I'm all for open debate and conversation but affecting someone's livelihood is where I've got the issue.  It's a much smaller burden to tell your children to ignore the bus driver than it will be for this guy to find a job.  Teach your children to be strong in what they believe and to espouse those beliefs.  It would be a much more interesting story if it were for a kid talking down the bus driver, or well, for anyone to actually talk down someone who is espousing their faith.  That's something I've never seen anyone do in person.  Though I suppose the only way to stop it is to write laws and pass paper in order to end the behavior.


If his livlihood was a concern, it would have been much easier to for him to heed one of the multiple warnings he was given.

Rights do overlap, but must be balanced against each other.  If this guy was street corner preaching, I would have no issue.  But that was not the case, and it is disingenuous of you not to acknowledge that his position and the context changes his 'rights'.

I have a freedom of speech.  But if I call all my customers 'dumbass', that right does not protect my job, in the slightest.
 
2013-11-07 09:43:51 AM

bungle_jr: pxlboy: bungle_jr: pxlboy: bungle_jr: pxlboy: Madaynun: They said, "Don't hand me no lines and keep your Prayers to yourself"

A++

Would LOL again

/from Georgia
//not a country fan, though
///but that was goddamn funny

song was from a band that was played primarily on rock stations. southern rock is similar to but not exactly country. yes, i do understand how it's easy to confuse the 2...some country is essentially southern rock and vice versa...

but my point is, if you listened to rock (especially those specializing in classic and/or southern rock) stations in the time that song was popular, you would've heard it, just like you would've heard skynyrd

Full disclaimer: I grew up in Marietta (county seat of Cobb Co)and to my ears, country and southern rock are two sides of the same coin. As you might imagine, I heard plenty of both growing up.

Not hating or judging, but that's just how it sounds to me.

Also, that song is in my head now, thanks lol

can't say i disagree
also, i've been to marietta. actually got my first tattoo there. and there is (was?) an eastern european restaurant (can't remember the specific nationality) downtown that was good
this was in 2003 i believe. i was there for a couple weeks of training at the reserve airbase

Right on. Can you remember the name of the restaurant?

The only one I can think of is out towards Roswell called 'Latka'.

sorry, no all i can remember is it was some sort of eastern european cuisine, and it was in the historic downtown area. and it was tasty & not expensive. czech? polish? something like one of those nationalities.


There is a Turkish place in the Square. Back then, it might have been Greek, but I can't be sure. There are a lot of Mediterranean-run restaurants in Marietta (most of which are delicious).

The Marietta Diner earned some fame and business after being Guy Fieri's show. Incidentally, that might have been about the time they started actually seasoning their food.

Until then, I never believed it possible to have a diner serve a burger with less flavor than a fast-food burger.
 
2013-11-07 09:45:16 AM
*being featured on
 
2013-11-07 09:50:37 AM
You know, even if I were religious, I still wouldn't want other random religious people leading my kids in prayer.

What if I and my kids were Lutheran, the bus driver was Catholic, and the driver started leading a prayer to Mary?

We'd both be "Christian", but as Lutheran, I'd throw a shiat fit over such a prayer.

Keep your religion out of other people's business.

// not Lutheran, but probably know more about religion than most "religious" people
 
2013-11-07 09:51:54 AM
Good.  Dude needs to be fired.  He was warned multiple times, he bussed students of other faiths -- and presumably some of no faith -- and he kept on proselytizing.  Just because they come to you in a confined space doesn't make them your congregation.  The driver's seat is not a pulpit.  Save it for Sunday.

/You don't live in a Christian nation.  Never has it been so, neither will it ever be.  Establishment clause, biatch.
 
2013-11-07 09:52:26 AM

pxlboy: bungle_jr: pxlboy: bungle_jr: pxlboy: bungle_jr: pxlboy: Madaynun: They said, "Don't hand me no lines and keep your Prayers to yourself"

A++

Would LOL again

/from Georgia
//not a country fan, though
///but that was goddamn funny

song was from a band that was played primarily on rock stations. southern rock is similar to but not exactly country. yes, i do understand how it's easy to confuse the 2...some country is essentially southern rock and vice versa...

but my point is, if you listened to rock (especially those specializing in classic and/or southern rock) stations in the time that song was popular, you would've heard it, just like you would've heard skynyrd

Full disclaimer: I grew up in Marietta (county seat of Cobb Co)and to my ears, country and southern rock are two sides of the same coin. As you might imagine, I heard plenty of both growing up.

Not hating or judging, but that's just how it sounds to me.

Also, that song is in my head now, thanks lol

can't say i disagree
also, i've been to marietta. actually got my first tattoo there. and there is (was?) an eastern european restaurant (can't remember the specific nationality) downtown that was good
this was in 2003 i believe. i was there for a couple weeks of training at the reserve airbase

Right on. Can you remember the name of the restaurant?

The only one I can think of is out towards Roswell called 'Latka'.

sorry, no all i can remember is it was some sort of eastern european cuisine, and it was in the historic downtown area. and it was tasty & not expensive. czech? polish? something like one of those nationalities.

There is a Turkish place in the Square. Back then, it might have been Greek, but I can't be sure. There are a lot of Mediterranean-run restaurants in Marietta (most of which are delicious).

The Marietta Diner earned some fame and business after being Guy Fieri's show. Incidentally, that might have been about the time they started actually seasoning their food.

Until then, I never be ...


i know it wasn't turkish or greek...although i love those...actually ate at a turkish place in riyadh, saudi arabia. that was very yummy, but sort of like eating authentic ________ (insert overseas ethnicity cuisine) in the ozarks. just kind of weird.

i ate at the marietta diner. everyone who had ever been to marietta told us we had to eat there. it was good, i had swordfish, but it wasn't "great"
 
2013-11-07 09:52:31 AM
Must be part of god's master plan.
 
2013-11-07 09:54:58 AM
Let's not fault the bus driver, he's probably been misled by SCJ Scalia.
 
2013-11-07 09:55:40 AM

bungle_jr: pxlboy: bungle_jr: pxlboy: bungle_jr: pxlboy: bungle_jr: pxlboy: Madaynun: They said, "Don't hand me no lines and keep your Prayers to yourself"

A++

Would LOL again

/from Georgia
//not a country fan, though
///but that was goddamn funny

song was from a band that was played primarily on rock stations. southern rock is similar to but not exactly country. yes, i do understand how it's easy to confuse the 2...some country is essentially southern rock and vice versa...

but my point is, if you listened to rock (especially those specializing in classic and/or southern rock) stations in the time that song was popular, you would've heard it, just like you would've heard skynyrd

Full disclaimer: I grew up in Marietta (county seat of Cobb Co)and to my ears, country and southern rock are two sides of the same coin. As you might imagine, I heard plenty of both growing up.

Not hating or judging, but that's just how it sounds to me.

Also, that song is in my head now, thanks lol

can't say i disagree
also, i've been to marietta. actually got my first tattoo there. and there is (was?) an eastern european restaurant (can't remember the specific nationality) downtown that was good
this was in 2003 i believe. i was there for a couple weeks of training at the reserve airbase

Right on. Can you remember the name of the restaurant?

The only one I can think of is out towards Roswell called 'Latka'.

sorry, no all i can remember is it was some sort of eastern european cuisine, and it was in the historic downtown area. and it was tasty & not expensive. czech? polish? something like one of those nationalities.

There is a Turkish place in the Square. Back then, it might have been Greek, but I can't be sure. There are a lot of Mediterranean-run restaurants in Marietta (most of which are delicious).

The Marietta Diner earned some fame and business after being Guy Fieri's show. Incidentally, that might have been about the time they started actually seasoning their food.

Until then, I ...


Heh, well it's better now. Like I said, they're actually seasoning their food now.
 
2013-11-07 09:56:52 AM

Facetious_Speciest: I have to tell you, brother, a bus full of kids from various religions is not the place to push your Christianity. We have places for that already.


How many religions besides Christianity did the news article say were on the bus again?
 
2013-11-07 09:58:10 AM

pxlboy: threedingers: OnlyM3: Wait... the complaints were from the family of muslim students? Isn't their post 9/11 talking point that Christians, Jews and muzzies are all "People of the book"? So we can finally shut down yet another "Religion of Peace" lie? Cool.


// No sympathy bus driver dude. You were told you were breaking the rules, you were given several chances to knock it off.

I know, it's so unreasonable for a Muslim parent to now want their Muslim child to be preached at by a Christian when they're sending their kid to a secular school.

I see your sarcasm, but Christianity is not the only religion practiced in this country. Muslim parents would have every right to be upset. Same goes for Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, Mormons, etc.

Being the majority religion does not excuse this kind of nonsense. American Christians seem to think that this majority somehow entitles them to foist their beliefs on others.

What really gets me, though, is how often they play the persecution card when they're rebuffed.


I couldn't agree more.

I actually send my kids to a Catholic school so religion is an expected component of their education, but if I were sending them to public school I would expect religion to be left out completely. I don't want other adults attempting to influence my kids' religious views unless I know exactly what the message is.
 
2013-11-07 09:59:57 AM
cwolf20

How many religions besides Christianity did the news article say were on the bus again?

Greater than zero.
 
2013-11-07 10:04:27 AM

OnlyM3: Farking Canuck

He was fired for multiple reasons:

- complaints from the end customers (parents did not want him preaching to their children)
- complaints from the school (they did not want a person representing them preaching religion - violation of church and state)
- refusing to comply with explicit instructions from management

They gave him plenty of warning and were exceptionally patient with him. They had an employee who disobeys orders and alienates their customers. It was a simple business decision - he deserved to be fired.Agreed. I just have to wonder if FARK would be so unified in this belief if the reports were complaints about him telling the kids to vote obama.


A new Godwin.  Obama replaces Hitler.  Film at 11.
 
2013-11-07 10:15:37 AM

Mega Steve: [img.fark.net image 634x417]

Dude needs to ease up on the Soul Glo


That was so random and awesome!  I was not expecting that between the other comments.
 
2013-11-07 10:15:41 AM
cwolf20

I have to correct myself. The Mail article doesn't say any particular student on the bus in question was of any specific religion at all.
 
2013-11-07 10:16:53 AM

cwolf20: How many religions besides Christianity did the news article say were on the bus again?


Why does the rest of the sanity have to mollycoddle these sky-faerie delusional nitwits again?
 
2013-11-07 10:21:59 AM

DubtodaIll: Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I can see if the guy was being insubordinate. But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion? If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver. I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong. Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.

Aside from the fact that you are ignoring the 3 reasons I listed for his firing ... please answer this:

How about you explain to me why a company should not be allowed to fire an employee who is pissing off their customers and refusing to stop after they've asked him twice, in writing, to stop??

Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate.  However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize.  Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends.  That's freedom.


If one of those tenants is to ritually slaughter your food, then they should be able to own goats and sheep at school and slaughter them in the cafeteria in front of the kids then, right?
 
2013-11-07 10:29:55 AM

nulluspixiusdemonica: cwolf20: How many religions besides Christianity did the news article say were on the bus again?

Why does the rest of the sanity have to mollycoddle these sky-faerie delusional nitwits again?


You don't have to mollycoddle to anyone I suppose.  However, it is worth noting that Christianity has been the backbone of Western Civilization for the past millennium and the vast majority of great people have been strongly influenced by Christianity and its teachings.  Also, no other system has proven as successful at keeping the masses happy, internally peaceful, and incredibly productive as Christianity has demonstrated.  Though, recently, individual sensibilities have become more important than stringent society and there's nothing wrong with that as long as we continue to progress at equal measure to that of the pace under Christian dominance.   I will say that ever since Evangelism became the most vocal and united branch of Christianity that it has turned more people off than on about it.
 
2013-11-07 10:31:44 AM

lohphat: DubtodaIll: Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I can see if the guy was being insubordinate. But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion? If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver. I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong. Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.

Aside from the fact that you are ignoring the 3 reasons I listed for his firing ... please answer this:

How about you explain to me why a company should not be allowed to fire an employee who is pissing off their customers and refusing to stop after they've asked him twice, in writing, to stop??

Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate.  However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize.  Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends.  That's freedom.

If one of those tenants is to ritually slaughter your food, then they should be able to own goats and sheep at school and slaughter them in the cafeteria in front of the kids then, right?


A great writer once wrote "A civilization begins the day the walls go up around the slaughterhouse."  So no, that's not a good point you're making at all.
 
2013-11-07 10:40:09 AM
Take it to church, jesus boy.
 
2013-11-07 10:49:27 AM

markfara: "Then I will pray and ask them if they want to join me in prayer. Just give them something constructive and positive to go to school with."

And you are the sole arbiter of what is positive and what is not, am I right?

Religious people are such f*cking narcissists.


+1 THIS
 
2013-11-07 10:52:43 AM

DubtodaIll: Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I can see if the guy was being insubordinate. But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion? If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver. I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong. Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.

Aside from the fact that you are ignoring the 3 reasons I listed for his firing ... please answer this:

How about you explain to me why a company should not be allowed to fire an employee who is pissing off their customers and refusing to stop after they've asked him twice, in writing, to stop??

Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate.  However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize.  Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends.  That's freedom.


The right to free speech and religious practice does not guarantee an entitlement to any particular job, nor does it protect you from the consequences of your actions.
 
2013-11-07 11:07:37 AM

Combustion: Take it to church, jesus boy.


Are they doing math on the church bus?
 
Ant
2013-11-07 11:08:52 AM

KrispyKritter: positions of power? a bus driver?


Adults hired by the school district are all in positions of power, from the superintendent down to the custodian who empties the trash cans. They can all get a kid in trouble with the school. That's the way it was when I was a kid in the 70s, at least.
 
2013-11-07 11:09:10 AM

nulluspixiusdemonica: Only newsworthy if you believe in magical sky faeries and believe it's perfectly acceptable for delusional adults in positions of power to foist their mental aberrations on kids...

The rest of us would consider it perfectly natural for said psychological defect to be removed from said position...


Wow, you are trying really hard.

I award you a gold star.

rlv.zcache.ca
 
2013-11-07 11:12:48 AM
Good. You're already a preacher, now you need to learn how to keep your jobs separate from one another.
 
2013-11-07 11:13:25 AM

markfara: Religious people are such f*cking narcissists.


And THIS.
 
2013-11-07 11:16:04 AM

lohphat: DubtodaIll: Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I can see if the guy was being insubordinate. But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion? If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver. I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong. Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.

Aside from the fact that you are ignoring the 3 reasons I listed for his firing ... please answer this:

How about you explain to me why a company should not be allowed to fire an employee who is pissing off their customers and refusing to stop after they've asked him twice, in writing, to stop??

Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate.  However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize.  Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends.  That's freedom.

If one of those tenants is to ritually slaughter your food, then they should be able to own goats and sheep at school and slaughter them in the cafeteria in front of the kids then, right?


Not in the school cafeteria, no, but ritual animal slaughter is still protected speech. You just have to remember those time and place restrictions that apply to the rest of the First Amendment. See
Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah. You can still sacrifice a chicken to appease your gods, but only in the privacy of your home or church building.

Obviously there are limits to the "but it's a tenant of my religion!" defense. Human sacrifice,polygamy, and all the perks from the old religions are all categorically illegal in the US. SeeReynolds v. United States. The difference between this case, which dealt with Mormons and polygamy, and the animal sacrifice one comes down to the centrality of animal sacrifice to Santeria. If you outlaw the ritual, you gut the religion. The Supreme Court didn't think polygamy was crucial to the practice of Mormonism, so they refused to make a religious exception.

In the case of our bus driver and Dubtodalll's assertion, you can practice Christianity without proselytizing to a captive audience on a school bus, so the First Amendment doesn't have his back.
 
2013-11-07 11:16:30 AM

EggSniper: He did it in Georgia and Wisconsin without issue (so far as he's said), now in Minnesota he was warned and then fired for it.  And now he's talking to the press about it.

This isn't someone to feel sorry for for getting fired.  This is someone taking a stand on an issue that they believe in.  Some will agree with him and some won't, but it's definitely disingenuous to call him a victim.  It's his fight, he chose to fight it, he'll live with the consequences, fine.

The laws about this stuff always favor one extreme or the other of a very grey issue.  Is there any harm in the bus driver leading prayer amongst children who may not all believe as he does?  Probably not.  Is there any great loss to the children not having a bus driver leading prayer?  Probably not.  School districts can't rely on every single parent being rational and responsible and secure in their own influence over their child, and under threat of expensive legal proceedings they go with the side of the argument that best protects them from being lawyered at.

These policies are less about any particular belief or philosophy and more about protection from people who are at the same time pitifully insecure and grotesquely self-important.  If this guy ends up suing I'd say he's one of those people.


Leading children in a prayer asking an invisible sky man to listen to them does WHAT about neglectful parents again?

You keep trying to defend the indefensible. What about the first amendment rights of those children?
 
2013-11-07 11:23:17 AM

DubtodaIll: Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I don't get how prayer isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your religion.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he talked out loud to a group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver talking out loud to a group of children.

He was warned on multiple occasions, in writing, to stop what he was doing. His route was changed explicitly because of customer complaints.

He was fired for multiple reasons:

- complaints from the end customers (parents did not want him preaching to their children)
- complaints from the school (they did not want a person representing them preaching religion - violation of church and state)
- refusing to comply with explicit instructions from management

They gave him plenty of warning and were exceptionally patient with him. They had an employee who disobeys orders and alienates their customers. It was a simple business decision -  he deserved to be fired.

I can see if the guy was being insubordinate.  But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion?  If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver.  I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong.  Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.


But that didn't stop you from coming out swinging butthurt cranked up to eleventy. Practice what you preach. Also this isn't a just case of unpopular speech it is a case of an indisputable violation of the law. But putting that aside completely he was warned, officially reprimanded and reassigned due to complaints yet still persisted in violating established policy. Can you name a single industry or entity where an employer is going to tolerate that kind of willful disobedience?

Let me let you in on a little secret. If his religion hadn't been involved he would have been dismissed a lot sooner but he thought he could hide behind baby Jesus if he was ever called out about it. Which is exactly what he is doing now. The school board not wanting the bad press put up with his crap for as long as they legally could but at this point he is so far over the line that they can no longer ignore it without facing potential legal repercussions. If he was just telling inappropriate jokes or kept going on about all the drugs he did he would have been canned in a second. The only reason he wasn't was the school didn't want to hear criticism from hypocritical reactionary jags up in arms because libs want to murder christmas and turn our kids into gay, communist liebruuls eating aborted fetuses garnished with bath salts. So spare us the pearl clutching act already granny.
 
2013-11-07 11:35:49 AM

ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I don't get how prayer isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your religion.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he talked out loud to a group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver talking out loud to a group of children.

He was warned on multiple occasions, in writing, to stop what he was doing. His route was changed explicitly because of customer complaints.

He was fired for multiple reasons:

- complaints from the end customers (parents did not want him preaching to their children)
- complaints from the school (they did not want a person representing them preaching religion - violation of church and state)
- refusing to comply with explicit instructions from management

They gave him plenty of warning and were exceptionally patient with him. They had an employee who disobeys orders and alienates their customers. It was a simple business decision -  he deserved to be fired.

I can see if the guy was being insubordinate.  But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion?  If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver.  I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong.  Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.

But that didn't stop you from coming out swinging butthurt cranked up to eleventy. Practice what you preach. Also this isn't a just case of unpopular speech it is a case of an indisputable violation of the law. But putting that aside completely he was warned, officially reprimanded and reassigned due to complaints yet still persisted in violatin ...


Hmmm, it's almost as if the content and intent of one's actions has something to do with the way one is treated.  I'm not butthurt and I'm not sure how I'm coming across like that.  I suppose any support of religion just sounds like butthurt to you because the majority of people who vocally support religion are just complete dumbasses in your opinion.  I just think prayer is not a bad thing.  Faith does a lot of inspire a person to do better for themselves and for others and history backs that up.  Making me out to be a fool just because I don't stand as strongly in favor of anti-religious sentiment as you do is pretty silly.
 
2013-11-07 11:41:46 AM
I'm glad the stupid ass got fired for that.
 
2013-11-07 11:45:42 AM

cwolf20: How many religions besides Christianity did the news article say were on the bus again?


At least one other.

FTFA:
"Gayla Colin, a bus driver for 13 years in the district, told the Star Tribune that her former colleague's actions were inappropriate, especially since many of the students are Muslim."
 
2013-11-07 11:51:20 AM

DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:


Faith does a lot of inspire a person to do better for themselves and for others and history backs that up.

whgbetc.com

medievalchristianityd.wikispaces.com

www.eyewitnesstohistory.com

archive.adrian.edu

figures.boundless.com

ushmm.org

static.guim.co.uk

www.examiner.com

www.queeried.com

Yeah you're probably right, I can't off hand think of an instance where faith ever hurt anybody.
 
2013-11-07 11:52:44 AM

ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:

Faith does a lot of inspire a person to do better for themselves and for others and history backs that up.

[whgbetc.com image 367x344]

[medievalchristianityd.wikispaces.com image 325x255]

[www.eyewitnesstohistory.com image 288x213]

[archive.adrian.edu image 252x392]

[figures.boundless.com image 250x201]

[ushmm.org image 333x237]

[static.guim.co.uk image 460x276]

[www.examiner.com image 239x300]

[www.queeried.com image 314x310]

Yeah you're probably right, I can't off hand think of an instance where faith ever hurt anybody.


Damn, someone brought facts to an idea fight
 
2013-11-07 12:01:10 PM
BUS FIGHT!!!
s23.postimg.org
 
2013-11-07 12:04:17 PM

ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:

Faith does a lot of inspire a person to do better for themselves and for others and history backs that up.

[whgbetc.com image 367x344]

[medievalchristianityd.wikispaces.com image 325x255]

[www.eyewitnesstohistory.com image 288x213]

[archive.adrian.edu image 252x392]

[figures.boundless.com image 250x201]

[ushmm.org image 333x237]

[static.guim.co.uk image 460x276]

[www.examiner.com image 239x300]

[www.queeried.com image 314x310]

Yeah you're probably right, I can't off hand think of an instance where faith ever hurt anybody.


upload.wikimedia.orgi.telegraph.co.uk0.tqn.commesosyn.combarakasamsara.comwww.standbyformindcontrol.com

Well religion is a sword that cuts both ways to be sure.
 
2013-11-07 12:05:00 PM

DubtodaIll: Hmmm, it's almost as if the content and intent of one's actions has something to do with the way one is treated.  I'm not butthurt and I'm not sure how I'm coming across like that.  I suppose any support of religion just sounds like butthurt to you because the majority of people who vocally support religion are just complete dumbasses in your opinion.  I just think prayer is not a bad thing.  Faith does a lot of inspire a person to do better for themselves and for others and history backs that up.  Making me out to be a fool just because I don't stand as strongly in favor of anti-religious sentiment as you do is pretty silly.



The case at hand has nothing to do with the relative merits, or lack thereof, of religious beliefs.  It has everything to do with an individual in a position of authority, acting under the auspices of an arm of the government, attempting to use that position to impose his personal beliefs on children who do not share them.

The Supreme Court has been very clear that employees of public schools are representatives of the local, state, and federal government, and the government is explicitly prohibited from favoring one religion over another (or over none).

You don't appear foolish for supporting religion.  You appear foolish for supporting blatantly unconstitutional, illegal behavior and employee insubordination.  That's what this case is about.
 
2013-11-07 12:08:00 PM

FloydA: DubtodaIll: Hmmm, it's almost as if the content and intent of one's actions has something to do with the way one is treated.  I'm not butthurt and I'm not sure how I'm coming across like that.  I suppose any support of religion just sounds like butthurt to you because the majority of people who vocally support religion are just complete dumbasses in your opinion.  I just think prayer is not a bad thing.  Faith does a lot of inspire a person to do better for themselves and for others and history backs that up.  Making me out to be a fool just because I don't stand as strongly in favor of anti-religious sentiment as you do is pretty silly.


The case at hand has nothing to do with the relative merits, or lack thereof, of religious beliefs.  It has everything to do with an individual in a position of authority, acting under the auspices of an arm of the government, attempting to use that position to impose his personal beliefs on children who do not share them.

The Supreme Court has been very clear that employees of public schools are representatives of the local, state, and federal government, and the government is explicitly prohibited from favoring one religion over another (or over none).

You don't appear foolish for supporting religion.  You appear foolish for supporting blatantly unconstitutional, illegal behavior and employee insubordination.  That's what this case is about.


I already said that him being fired for insubordination was fine.
 
2013-11-07 12:09:41 PM

DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: Farking Canuck: DubtodaIll: I don't get how prayer isn't a First Amendment Right.   On the one side, you're free to practice your religion.  On the other side, it's just some guy talking out loud to essentially nothing.  How does that hurt anything?  It's not just to force the guy to be fired.  Going out of your way in order to ruin the current circumstances of a bus driver because he talked out loud to a group of children is not an equal action to a bus driver talking out loud to a group of children.

He was warned on multiple occasions, in writing, to stop what he was doing. His route was changed explicitly because of customer complaints.

He was fired for multiple reasons:

- complaints from the end customers (parents did not want him preaching to their children)
- complaints from the school (they did not want a person representing them preaching religion - violation of church and state)
- refusing to comply with explicit instructions from management

They gave him plenty of warning and were exceptionally patient with him. They had an employee who disobeys orders and alienates their customers. It was a simple business decision -  he deserved to be fired.

I can see if the guy was being insubordinate.  But further, how is it not discrimination against him towards his own religion to practice his own religion?  If you don't believe in it, then tell your child to ignore the rantings of the bus driver.  I can see why they fired him, but it just seems like they're hurting this guys ability to survive for the sake of protecting snowflakes which I find wrong.  Getting offended doesn't give you the right to anything.

But that didn't stop you from coming out swinging butthurt cranked up to eleventy. Practice what you preach. Also this isn't a just case of unpopular speech it is a case of an indisputable violation of the law. But putting that aside completely he was warned, officially reprimanded and reassigned due to complaints yet still persisted in violatin ...

Hmmm, it's almost as if the content and intent of one's actions has something to do with the way one is treated.  I'm not butthurt and I'm not sure how I'm coming across like that.  I suppose any support of religion just sounds like butthurt to you because the majority of people who vocally support religion are just complete dumbasses in your opinion.  I just think prayer is not a bad thing.  Faith does a lot of inspire a person to do better for themselves and for others and history backs that up.  Making me out to be a fool just because I don't stand as strongly in favor of anti-religious sentiment as you do is pretty silly.


It's not necessarily an "anti-religious" sentiment, so much as a "pro-freedom" one; you can't have a country that is both "Christian" and "free". Either people have the freedom to choose their own religion or they don't.

If you come up to me on the street and try to proselytize, I have every right to tell you to stop and walk away, and if you persist, you are committing a crime and infringing upon my rights. These kids are not being afforded the rights to believe as they or their parents wish, and not be proselytized to if they wish.

Tldr: you have a right to free speech in public, but not an entitlement to a platform or audience. Your free speech rights place me under no obligation to listen to you, and these kids had no way to escape the unwanted speech.
 
2013-11-07 12:16:46 PM
ts3.explicit.bing.net
 
2013-11-07 12:26:26 PM

DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:

Faith does a lot of inspire a person to do better for themselves and for others and history backs that up.

[whgbetc.com image 367x344]

[medievalchristianityd.wikispaces.com image 325x255]

[www.eyewitnesstohistory.com image 288x213]

[archive.adrian.edu image 252x392]

[figures.boundless.com image 250x201]

[ushmm.org image 333x237]

[static.guim.co.uk image 460x276]

[www.examiner.com image 239x300]

[www.queeried.com image 314x310]

Yeah you're probably right, I can't off hand think of an instance where faith ever hurt anybody.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x434][i.telegraph.co.uk image 404x300][0.tqn.com image 850x1291][mesosyn.com image 850x637][barakasamsara.com image 850x354][www.standbyformindcontrol.com image 850x504]

Well religion is a sword that cuts both ways to be sure.


Ah, the old false equivalency..... Please explain to us all how even one of those things contributes to the betterment and development of all humanity. Which is the logical counter point to the harm religion does. Or for that matter explain to us how admittedly exquisite works of art mitigate the I'm going to go ahead and say hundreds of millions of lives "faith" has taken in the name of superstition? But all this academic really, the facts of the matter are he violated the law and school board policy repeatedly after being given more chances than he probably desrved. So go cry to someone else. People like you always seem to forget that responsibilities come part and parcel with freedom, and one of those responsibilities especially if you are employed by the local, state or federal government is to not try and force your beliefs on others. You are never going to win this, you are objectively and demonstrably wrong period. Perpetuating this is just making you look even more stupid and/or dishonest so just save you moral outrage for your annual phony made up  war on christmas. It should only be a couple of weeks before you guys can start whinging on about that.
 
2013-11-07 12:36:13 PM
ScaryBottles:

so just save you moral outrage for your annual phony made up war on christmas. It should only be a couple of weeks before you guys can start whinging on about that.

Start?  They never stop.
 
2013-11-07 12:37:23 PM

ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:

Faith does a lot of inspire a person to do better for themselves and for others and history backs that up.

[whgbetc.com image 367x344]

[medievalchristianityd.wikispaces.com image 325x255]

[www.eyewitnesstohistory.com image 288x213]

[archive.adrian.edu image 252x392]

[figures.boundless.com image 250x201]

[ushmm.org image 333x237]

[static.guim.co.uk image 460x276]

[www.examiner.com image 239x300]

[www.queeried.com image 314x310]

Yeah you're probably right, I can't off hand think of an instance where faith ever hurt anybody.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x434][i.telegraph.co.uk image 404x300][0.tqn.com image 850x1291][mesosyn.com image 850x637][barakasamsara.com image 850x354][www.standbyformindcontrol.com image 850x504]

Well religion is a sword that cuts both ways to be sure.

Ah, the old false equivalency..... Please explain to us all how even one of those things contributes to the betterment and development of all humanity. Which is the logical counter point to the harm religion does. Or for that matter explain to us how admittedly exquisite works of art mitigate the I'm going to go ahead and say hundreds of millions of lives "faith" has taken in the name of superstition? But all this academic really, the facts of the matter are he violated the law and school board policy repeatedly after being given more chances than he probably desrved. So go cry to someone else. People like you always seem to forget that responsibilities come part and parcel with freedom, and one of those responsibilities especially if you are employed by the local, state or federal government is to not try and force your beliefs on others. You are never going to win this, you are objectively and demonstrably wrong period. Perpetuating this is just making you look even more stupid and/or dishonest so just save you moral outrage for your annual phony made up  war on christmas. It should only be a couple of weeks before you guys can ...


So the inspiration and subsequent creation of beauty is just a waste of time to you? Also I'm sure every NASA scientist ever never went to church or was instilled with the work ethic of Protestantism. Yeah, no one would ever kill anyone else if there had never been religion.  Also, I never said there's a war on Christmas.  The only way you're "winning" your argument is assigning extreme views to me that I do not hold.  I said it's fine that he was fired for insubordination.  What I disagree with is this guy getting lambasted for practicing his beliefs.  He could have been praying to Xenu every morning in front of children and I wouldn't have a problem with it even if he is working for the State.  Furthermore, I'm not a Christian, I just appreciate that faith is good thing.
 
2013-11-07 12:40:25 PM

DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:

Faith does a lot of inspire a person to do better for themselves and for others and history backs that up.

[whgbetc.com image 367x344]

[medievalchristianityd.wikispaces.com image 325x255]

[www.eyewitnesstohistory.com image 288x213]

[archive.adrian.edu image 252x392]

[figures.boundless.com image 250x201]

[ushmm.org image 333x237]

[static.guim.co.uk image 460x276]

[www.examiner.com image 239x300]

[www.queeried.com image 314x310]

Yeah you're probably right, I can't off hand think of an instance where faith ever hurt anybody.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x434][i.telegraph.co.uk image 404x300][0.tqn.com image 850x1291][mesosyn.com image 850x637][barakasamsara.com image 850x354][www.standbyformindcontrol.com image 850x504]

Well religion is a sword that cuts both ways to be sure.

Ah, the old false equivalency..... Please explain to us all how even one of those things contributes to the betterment and development of all humanity. Which is the logical counter point to the harm religion does. Or for that matter explain to us how admittedly exquisite works of art mitigate the I'm going to go ahead and say hundreds of millions of lives "faith" has taken in the name of superstition? But all this academic really, the facts of the matter are he violated the law and school board policy repeatedly after being given more chances than he probably desrved. So go cry to someone else. People like you always seem to forget that responsibilities come part and parcel with freedom, and one of those responsibilities especially if you are employed by the local, state or federal government is to not try and force your beliefs on others. You are never going to win this, you are objectively and demonstrably wrong period. Perpetuating this is just making you look even more stupid and/or dishonest so just save you moral outrage for your annual phony made up  war on christmas. It should only be a couple of weeks before ...


Are you still talking?
 
2013-11-07 12:41:43 PM

ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:

Faith does a lot of inspire a person to do better for themselves and for others and history backs that up.

[whgbetc.com image 367x344]

[medievalchristianityd.wikispaces.com image 325x255]

[www.eyewitnesstohistory.com image 288x213]

[archive.adrian.edu image 252x392]

[figures.boundless.com image 250x201]

[ushmm.org image 333x237]

[static.guim.co.uk image 460x276]

[www.examiner.com image 239x300]

[www.queeried.com image 314x310]

Yeah you're probably right, I can't off hand think of an instance where faith ever hurt anybody.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x434][i.telegraph.co.uk image 404x300][0.tqn.com image 850x1291][mesosyn.com image 850x637][barakasamsara.com image 850x354][www.standbyformindcontrol.com image 850x504]

Well religion is a sword that cuts both ways to be sure.

Ah, the old false equivalency..... Please explain to us all how even one of those things contributes to the betterment and development of all humanity. Which is the logical counter point to the harm religion does. Or for that matter explain to us how admittedly exquisite works of art mitigate the I'm going to go ahead and say hundreds of millions of lives "faith" has taken in the name of superstition? But all this academic really, the facts of the matter are he violated the law and school board policy repeatedly after being given more chances than he probably desrved. So go cry to someone else. People like you always seem to forget that responsibilities come part and parcel with freedom, and one of those responsibilities especially if you are employed by the local, state or federal government is to not try and force your beliefs on others. You are never going to win this, you are objectively and demonstrably wrong period. Perpetuating this is just making you look even more stupid and/or dishonest so just save you moral outrage for your annual phony made up  war on christmas. It should only be a couple of ...


Oh are you going to shut out other opinions like a good fundamentalist now?
 
2013-11-07 12:47:56 PM
The guy that reported this story originally (the video link) is a friend of mine, I think he did a fair job of it as he always does.  He's also a devout Christian, but you wouldn't know that from seeing him on TV because his job requires him to keep his personal beliefs out of his reporting as much as he can.  He does get into it a little bit when it comes up in conversation off camera, but he leads by example--by being a good man, and by not imposing his beliefs on others, especially those who do not share them.  Quite the opposite of preacher guy bus driver.

Also noted that preacher guy bus driver preaches at Church Of Minneapolis, which has a "pray-away-the-gay" program they're especially proud of.  I wonder how he'd deal with an openly gay kid on his bus.
 
2013-11-07 12:52:41 PM

DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:

Faith does a lot of inspire a person to do better for themselves and for others and history backs that up.

[whgbetc.com image 367x344]

[medievalchristianityd.wikispaces.com image 325x255]

[www.eyewitnesstohistory.com image 288x213]

[archive.adrian.edu image 252x392]

[figures.boundless.com image 250x201]

[ushmm.org image 333x237]

[static.guim.co.uk image 460x276]

[www.examiner.com image 239x300]

[www.queeried.com image 314x310]

Yeah you're probably right, I can't off hand think of an instance where faith ever hurt anybody.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x434][i.telegraph.co.uk image 404x300][0.tqn.com image 850x1291][mesosyn.com image 850x637][barakasamsara.com image 850x354][www.standbyformindcontrol.com image 850x504]

Well religion is a sword that cuts both ways to be sure.

Ah, the old false equivalency..... Please explain to us all how even one of those things contributes to the betterment and development of all humanity. Which is the logical counter point to the harm religion does. Or for that matter explain to us how admittedly exquisite works of art mitigate the I'm going to go ahead and say hundreds of millions of lives "faith" has taken in the name of superstition? But all this academic really, the facts of the matter are he violated the law and school board policy repeatedly after being given more chances than he probably desrved. So go cry to someone else. People like you always seem to forget that responsibilities come part and parcel with freedom, and one of those responsibilities especially if you are employed by the local, state or federal government is to not try and force your beliefs on others. You are never going to win this, you are objectively and demonstrably wrong period. Perpetuating this is just making you look even more stupid and/or dishonest so just save you moral outrage for your annual phony made up  war on christmas. It should only be a couple of weeks before you guys can ...

So the inspiration and subsequent creation of beauty is just a waste of time to you? Also I'm sure every NASA scientist ever never went to church or was instilled with the work ethic of Protestantism. Yeah, no one would ever kill anyone else if there had never been religion.  Also, I never said there's a war on Christmas.  The only way you're "winning" your argument is assigning extreme views to me that I do not hold.  I said it's fine that he was fired for insubordination.  What I disagree with is this guy getting lambasted for practicing his beliefs.  He could have been praying to Xenu every morning in front of children and I wouldn't have a problem with it even if he is working for the State.  Furthermore, I'm not a Christian, I just appreciate that faith is good thing.


Btw, people like to say that the church was responsible for nearly all art and culture of the middle ages, but this only appears to be the case to modern audiences because they systematically destroyed nearly piece of art and cultural accomplishment that failed to show adequate deference to their political power.
 
2013-11-07 12:53:14 PM

DubtodaIll: Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate.  However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize.  Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends.  That's freedom.


You can't actually believe this. Proselytizing is done in an effort to convert nonbelievers. Are you honestly saying you'd be alright with a muslim actively trying to convert a busload of unsupervised children to Islam? What if he was a Satanist?

Rastafarianism is a recognized religion that considers the consumption of cannabis as a sacrament. Should he be allowed to blaze up while driving, in order to avoid religiously persecuting him?
 
2013-11-07 12:57:15 PM

Pangea: DubtodaIll: Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate.  However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize.  Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends.  That's freedom.

You can't actually believe this. Proselytizing is done in an effort to convert nonbelievers. Are you honestly saying you'd be alright with a muslim actively trying to convert a busload of unsupervised children to Islam? What if he was a Satanist?

Rastafarianism is a recognized religion that considers the consumption of cannabis as a sacrament. Should he be allowed to blaze up while driving, in order to avoid religiously persecuting him?


Yes in all cases except the driving while intoxicated.  It's important that developing humans learn about everything possible.
 
2013-11-07 12:59:51 PM

DubtodaIll: Pangea: DubtodaIll: Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate.  However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize.  Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends.  That's freedom.

You can't actually believe this. Proselytizing is done in an effort to convert nonbelievers. Are you honestly saying you'd be alright with a muslim actively trying to convert a busload of unsupervised children to Islam? What if he was a Satanist?

Rastafarianism is a recognized religion that considers the consumption of cannabis as a sacrament. Should he be allowed to blaze up while driving, in order to avoid religiously persecuting him?

Yes in all cases except the driving while intoxicated.  It's important that developing humans learn about everything possible.


I tried to warn you........
 
2013-11-07 01:00:24 PM

udhq: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:

Btw, people like to say that the church was responsible for nearly all art and culture of the middle ages, but this only appears to be the case to modern audiences because they systematically destroyed nearly piece of art and cultural accomplishment that failed to show adequate deference to their political power.


Again, being assigned beliefs I don't hold, however there is something to be said for being the one who writes the history.  Objectively one could call that "winning" and what allowed them to win was the tenets of their beliefs and the individuals those tenets created and inspired.
 
2013-11-07 01:07:48 PM

DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:

Btw, people like to say that the church was responsible for nearly all art and culture of the middle ages, but this only appears to be the case to modern audiences because they systematically destroyed nearly piece of art and cultural accomplishment that failed to show adequate deference to their political power.

Again, being assigned beliefs I don't hold, however there is something to be said for being the one who writes the history.  Objectively one could call that "winning" and what allowed them to win was the tenets of their beliefs and the individuals those tenets created and inspired.


Umm, well, that and the part where they killed millions upon millions of dissidents.....

There's a reason that the period of human history defined by the hegemony of the Christian church is called "the dark ages."
 
2013-11-07 01:08:07 PM

DubtodaIll: Pangea: DubtodaIll: Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate.  However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize.  Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends.  That's freedom.

You can't actually believe this. Proselytizing is done in an effort to convert nonbelievers. Are you honestly saying you'd be alright with a muslim actively trying to convert a busload of unsupervised children to Islam? What if he was a Satanist?

Rastafarianism is a recognized religion that considers the consumption of cannabis as a sacrament. Should he be allowed to blaze up while driving, in order to avoid religiously persecuting him?

Yes in all cases except the driving while intoxicated.   It's important that developing humans learn about everything possible.


And the trolling has been revealed (or at least I hope so).
 
2013-11-07 01:09:30 PM

DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:

Btw, people like to say that the church was responsible for nearly all art and culture of the middle ages, but this only appears to be the case to modern audiences because they systematically destroyed nearly piece of art and cultural accomplishment that failed to show adequate deference to their political power.

Again, being assigned beliefs I don't hold, however there is something to be said for being the one who writes the history.  Objectively one could call that "winning" and what allowed them to win was the tenets of their beliefs and the individuals those tenets created and inspired.


Wether you believe it or not you are defending them and thats what matters and not for nothing for someone who doesn't "believe" you have just by sheer coincidence I suppose trotted out just about every bs talking point religious whiners use to demonstrate how oppressed they are. So yeah I'm just gonna come out and say it. You are a liar and not nearly as clever as you think you are, your kind never is.
 
2013-11-07 01:09:41 PM

MycroftHolmes: DubtodaIll: Pangea: DubtodaIll: Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate.  However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize.  Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends.  That's freedom.

You can't actually believe this. Proselytizing is done in an effort to convert nonbelievers. Are you honestly saying you'd be alright with a muslim actively trying to convert a busload of unsupervised children to Islam? What if he was a Satanist?

Rastafarianism is a recognized religion that considers the consumption of cannabis as a sacrament. Should he be allowed to blaze up while driving, in order to avoid religiously persecuting him?

Yes in all cases except the driving while intoxicated.   It's important that developing humans learn about everything possible.

And the trolling has been revealed (or at least I hope so).


It's not important that students don't learn everything possible?  How can you be confident in your world view unless you've viewed everything you can, even the bad parts?
 
2013-11-07 01:12:34 PM

ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:

Btw, people like to say that the church was responsible for nearly all art and culture of the middle ages, but this only appears to be the case to modern audiences because they systematically destroyed nearly piece of art and cultural accomplishment that failed to show adequate deference to their political power.

Again, being assigned beliefs I don't hold, however there is something to be said for being the one who writes the history.  Objectively one could call that "winning" and what allowed them to win was the tenets of their beliefs and the individuals those tenets created and inspired.

Wether you believe it or not you are defending them and thats what matters and not for nothing for someone who doesn't "believe" you have just by sheer coincidence I suppose trotted out just about every bs talking point religious whiners use to demonstrate how oppressed they are. So yeah I'm just gonna come out and say it. You are a liar and not nearly as clever as you think you are, your kind never is.


What have I lied about?  I see you have a problem with Them.  What else are They stopping you from doing in your life and how are They making your life miserable in a way that you yourself cannot rectify with your own efforts?  You know there's a great Book that's got alllll the answers...
 
2013-11-07 01:17:05 PM

MycroftHolmes: DubtodaIll: Pangea: DubtodaIll: Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate.  However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize.  Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends.  That's freedom.

You can't actually believe this. Proselytizing is done in an effort to convert nonbelievers. Are you honestly saying you'd be alright with a muslim actively trying to convert a busload of unsupervised children to Islam? What if he was a Satanist?

Rastafarianism is a recognized religion that considers the consumption of cannabis as a sacrament. Should he be allowed to blaze up while driving, in order to avoid religiously persecuting him?

Yes in all cases except the driving while intoxicated.   It's important that developing humans learn about everything possible.

And the trolling has been revealed (or at least I hope so).


Woah, I missed that line, that's...that's really something...is what that is...

So, dubtoall, just let me know what time works for you, and I'll drop by your house and teach your children about the infinite majesty of our dark Lord Satan.
 
2013-11-07 01:17:44 PM

udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:

Btw, people like to say that the church was responsible for nearly all art and culture of the middle ages, but this only appears to be the case to modern audiences because they systematically destroyed nearly piece of art and cultural accomplishment that failed to show adequate deference to their political power.

Again, being assigned beliefs I don't hold, however there is something to be said for being the one who writes the history.  Objectively one could call that "winning" and what allowed them to win was the tenets of their beliefs and the individuals those tenets created and inspired.

Umm, well, that and the part where they killed millions upon millions of dissidents.....

There's a reason that the period of human history defined by the hegemony of the Christian church is called "the dark ages."


I see you think that war is completely bad and that everyone who is born should live to 100 and that nothing bad should ever happen ever because religion.  War is part of human nature.  I can't say which came first between War and Religion but I would think we were competing amongst ourselves before we invented the notion of religion.  It's almost as if religion helped to bring order to chaos and pave the way for shining civilizations.
 
2013-11-07 01:18:53 PM

udhq: MycroftHolmes: DubtodaIll: Pangea: DubtodaIll: Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate.  However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize.  Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends.  That's freedom.

You can't actually believe this. Proselytizing is done in an effort to convert nonbelievers. Are you honestly saying you'd be alright with a muslim actively trying to convert a busload of unsupervised children to Islam? What if he was a Satanist?

Rastafarianism is a recognized religion that considers the consumption of cannabis as a sacrament. Should he be allowed to blaze up while driving, in order to avoid religiously persecuting him?

Yes in all cases except the driving while intoxicated.   It's important that developing humans learn about everything possible.

And the trolling has been revealed (or at least I hope so).

Woah, I missed that line, that's...that's really something...is what that is...

So, dubtoall, just let me know what time works for you, and I'll drop by your house and teach your children about the infinite majesty of our dark Lord Satan.


Whenever, you can give it a shot.
 
2013-11-07 01:19:04 PM

DubtodaIll: MycroftHolmes: DubtodaIll: Pangea: DubtodaIll: Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate.  However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize.  Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends.  That's freedom.

You can't actually believe this. Proselytizing is done in an effort to convert nonbelievers. Are you honestly saying you'd be alright with a muslim actively trying to convert a busload of unsupervised children to Islam? What if he was a Satanist?

Rastafarianism is a recognized religion that considers the consumption of cannabis as a sacrament. Should he be allowed to blaze up while driving, in order to avoid religiously persecuting him?

Yes in all cases except the driving while intoxicated.   It's important that developing humans learn about everything possible.

And the trolling has been revealed (or at least I hope so).

It's not important that students don't learn everything possible?  How can you be confident in your world view unless you've viewed everything you can, even the bad parts?


No way you can be this dumb.

Are you really advocating the open and unfettered access to ALL information to forming brains, regardless of their developmental stage?

Mind you, for that to work, the information should be provided in an objective and nuetral way.  An authority figure leading kids in prayer is NOT, and I repeat NOT, a case of exposing people to different world views.
 
2013-11-07 01:22:32 PM

MycroftHolmes: DubtodaIll: MycroftHolmes: DubtodaIll: Pangea: DubtodaIll: Again, I agree if he's being insubordinate.  However, one of the tenants of Christianity is to proselytize.  Forcing someone to selectively ignore tenants of their religion that they choose to practice should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends.  That's freedom.

You can't actually believe this. Proselytizing is done in an effort to convert nonbelievers. Are you honestly saying you'd be alright with a muslim actively trying to convert a busload of unsupervised children to Islam? What if he was a Satanist?

Rastafarianism is a recognized religion that considers the consumption of cannabis as a sacrament. Should he be allowed to blaze up while driving, in order to avoid religiously persecuting him?

Yes in all cases except the driving while intoxicated.   It's important that developing humans learn about everything possible.

And the trolling has been revealed (or at least I hope so).

It's not important that students don't learn everything possible?  How can you be confident in your world view unless you've viewed everything you can, even the bad parts?

No way you can be this dumb.

Are you really advocating the open and unfettered access to ALL information to forming brains, regardless of their developmental stage?

Mind you, for that to work, the information should be provided in an objective and nuetral way.  An authority figure leading kids in prayer is NOT, and I repeat NOT, a case of exposing people to different world views.


I'm not one for censorship.  As far what your children conclude to be the best way to go about things, I would say that responsibility lies with their creators, i.e. their parents.
 
2013-11-07 01:25:44 PM

DubtodaIll: I'm not one for censorship. As far what your children conclude to be the best way to go about things, I would say that responsibility lies with their creators, i.e. their parents.


So, since the parents objected to a bus driver proseltizing, you fully back up the decision to fire him for his actions.
 
2013-11-07 01:27:16 PM

MycroftHolmes: DubtodaIll: I'm not one for censorship. As far what your children conclude to be the best way to go about things, I would say that responsibility lies with their creators, i.e. their parents.

So, since the parents objected to a bus driver proseltizing, you fully back up the decision to fire him for his actions.


As I said, yes, firing him for insubordination is fine.  Crucifying him for espousing his beliefs is not.
 
2013-11-07 01:28:01 PM
He's not being crucified. He was fired. Derp.
 
2013-11-07 01:37:12 PM

DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:

Btw, people like to say that the church was responsible for nearly all art and culture of the middle ages, but this only appears to be the case to modern audiences because they systematically destroyed nearly piece of art and cultural accomplishment that failed to show adequate deference to their political power.

Again, being assigned beliefs I don't hold, however there is something to be said for being the one who writes the history.  Objectively one could call that "winning" and what allowed them to win was the tenets of their beliefs and the individuals those tenets created and inspired.

Umm, well, that and the part where they killed millions upon millions of dissidents.....

There's a reason that the period of human history defined by the hegemony of the Christian church is called "the dark ages."

I see you think that war is completely bad and that everyone who is born should live to 100 and that nothing bad should ever happen ever because religion.  War is part of human nature.  I can't say which came first between War and Religion but I would think we were competing amongst ourselves before we invented the notion of religion.  It's almost as if religion helped to bring order to chaos and pave the way for shining civilizations.


Inquisitions and violent missionary attempts to wipe out indigenous religions are not wars.
 
2013-11-07 01:37:42 PM

Facetious_Speciest: He's not being crucified. He was fired. Derp.


"Only newsworthy if you believe in magical sky faeries and believe it's perfectly acceptable for delusional adults in positions of power to foist their mental aberrations on kids...
The rest of us would consider it perfectly natural for said psychological defect to be removed from said position..."
"No, you're a bus driver, drive the farking bus and shut up. "
"Why does the rest of the sanity have to mollycoddle these sky-faerie delusional nitwits again? "
"Religious people are such f*cking narcissists."
+1 THIS
"I'm glad the stupid ass got fired for that."

 
2013-11-07 01:38:38 PM
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you meant "crucified" in some kind of meaningful, rather than histrionic, sense.

My bad.
 
2013-11-07 01:39:30 PM

udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:

Btw, people like to say that the church was responsible for nearly all art and culture of the middle ages, but this only appears to be the case to modern audiences because they systematically destroyed nearly piece of art and cultural accomplishment that failed to show adequate deference to their political power.

Again, being assigned beliefs I don't hold, however there is something to be said for being the one who writes the history.  Objectively one could call that "winning" and what allowed them to win was the tenets of their beliefs and the individuals those tenets created and inspired.

Umm, well, that and the part where they killed millions upon millions of dissidents.....

There's a reason that the period of human history defined by the hegemony of the Christian church is called "the dark ages."

I see you think that war is completely bad and that everyone who is born should live to 100 and that nothing bad should ever happen ever because religion.  War is part of human nature.  I can't say which came first between War and Religion but I would think we were competing amongst ourselves before we invented the notion of religion.  It's almost as if religion helped to bring order to chaos and pave the way for shining civilizations.

Inquisitions and violent missionary attempts to wipe out indigenous religions are not wars.


Were they hugging contests?  War are very rarely fair.
 
2013-11-07 01:46:00 PM

DubtodaIll: Inquisitions and violent missionary attempts to wipe out indigenous religions are not wars.

Were they hugging contests?  War are very rarely fair.


Enjoy the thread, you've twisted this into something absurd at this point.

teamshocker.com
 
2013-11-07 01:47:34 PM
In junior high, the song "The Devil Came Down to Georgia" was popular. When ever it came on, our bus driver would turn off the radio. One day I asked him why. He explained that he was a devout Christian and that he believed it was blasphemous to sing about the devil, never mind the fact that the song contained a curse word that we, as children, shouldn't be exposed to. He wasn't ranting, frothing at the mouth, or in any way mean or condescending. He talked to me as an adult explaining it in a very straight forward way that I appreciated.

I've never understood why more people can't act that rationally normally.
 
2013-11-07 01:48:36 PM
DubtodaIll

War are very rarely fair.

Especially wars waged to wipe out or convert unbelievers.

You are a crazy person. A little Osama bin Laden in your own tiny world. Huzzah.
 
2013-11-07 01:51:43 PM

DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:

Btw, people like to say that the church was responsible for nearly all art and culture of the middle ages, but this only appears to be the case to modern audiences because they systematically destroyed nearly piece of art and cultural accomplishment that failed to show adequate deference to their political power.

Again, being assigned beliefs I don't hold, however there is something to be said for being the one who writes the history.  Objectively one could call that "winning" and what allowed them to win was the tenets of their beliefs and the individuals those tenets created and inspired.

Umm, well, that and the part where they killed millions upon millions of dissidents.....

There's a reason that the period of human history defined by the hegemony of the Christian church is called "the dark ages."

I see you think that war is completely bad and that everyone who is born should live to 100 and that nothing bad should ever happen ever because religion.  War is part of human nature.  I can't say which came first between War and Religion but I would think we were competing amongst ourselves before we invented the notion of religion.  It's almost as if religion helped to bring order to chaos and pave the way for shining civilizations.

Inquisitions and violent missionary attempts to wipe out indigenous religions are not wars.

Were they hugging contests?  War are very rarely fair.


You don't understand: the attempts by the Christian church to displace indigenous religions in Africa, south America, northern Europe, etc. through violence were fundamentally not wars, which involve 2 our more belligerents doing battle.

In most cases, they were more akin to wholesale, industrial slaughter and political repression. Would you say Germany was "at war" with the Jewish people?
 
2013-11-07 01:52:38 PM

Facetious_Speciest: DubtodaIll

War are very rarely fair.

Especially wars waged to wipe out or convert unbelievers.

You are a crazy person. A little Osama bin Laden in your own tiny world. Huzzah.


You really think that there wouldn't be genocide without religion?  Of course assuming that you could have a civilization without religion, which at this point, you'd have to commit genocide against all religious people to bring about.
 
2013-11-07 01:53:51 PM

udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:

Btw, people like to say that the church was responsible for nearly all art and culture of the middle ages, but this only appears to be the case to modern audiences because they systematically destroyed nearly piece of art and cultural accomplishment that failed to show adequate deference to their political power.

Again, being assigned beliefs I don't hold, however there is something to be said for being the one who writes the history.  Objectively one could call that "winning" and what allowed them to win was the tenets of their beliefs and the individuals those tenets created and inspired.

Umm, well, that and the part where they killed millions upon millions of dissidents.....

There's a reason that the period of human history defined by the hegemony of the Christian church is called "the dark ages."

I see you think that war is completely bad and that everyone who is born should live to 100 and that nothing bad should ever happen ever because religion.  War is part of human nature.  I can't say which came first between War and Religion but I would think we were competing amongst ourselves before we invented the notion of religion.  It's almost as if religion helped to bring order to chaos and pave the way for shining civilizations.

Inquisitions and violent missionary attempts to wipe out indigenous religions are not wars.

Were they hugging contests?  War are very rarely fair.

You don't understand: the attempts by the Christian church to displace indigenous religions in Africa, south America, northern Europe, etc. through violence were fundamentally not wars, which involve 2 our more belligerents doing battle.

In most cases, they were more akin to wholesale, industrial slaughter and political repression. Would you say Germany was "at war" with the Jewish people?


And by the way, when religion is used to justify genocide, as you're doing in this thread, it objectively ceases to be on the "good" side of the "good vs. evil" divide.
 
2013-11-07 01:54:21 PM

DubtodaIll: MycroftHolmes: DubtodaIll: I'm not one for censorship. As far what your children conclude to be the best way to go about things, I would say that responsibility lies with their creators, i.e. their parents.

So, since the parents objected to a bus driver proseltizing, you fully back up the decision to fire him for his actions.

As I said, yes, firing him for insubordination is fine.  Crucifying him for espousing his beliefs is not.


No one is crucifying for his beliefs, but his actions.  I am not talking at all about insubordination, but the inappropriate nature of proseltyzing to a bunch of kids.  You acknowledge that the parents are the arbiters for when and how children should be exposed to these ideas, so you acknowledge that his actions pre-empting this parental perogative was inappropriate.  I think we are done here.
 
2013-11-07 01:56:46 PM

udhq: udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:

Btw, people like to say that the church was responsible for nearly all art and culture of the middle ages, but this only appears to be the case to modern audiences because they systematically destroyed nearly piece of art and cultural accomplishment that failed to show adequate deference to their political power.

Again, being assigned beliefs I don't hold, however there is something to be said for being the one who writes the history.  Objectively one could call that "winning" and what allowed them to win was the tenets of their beliefs and the individuals those tenets created and inspired.

Umm, well, that and the part where they killed millions upon millions of dissidents.....

There's a reason that the period of human history defined by the hegemony of the Christian church is called "the dark ages."

I see you think that war is completely bad and that everyone who is born should live to 100 and that nothing bad should ever happen ever because religion.  War is part of human nature.  I can't say which came first between War and Religion but I would think we were competing amongst ourselves before we invented the notion of religion.  It's almost as if religion helped to bring order to chaos and pave the way for shining civilizations.

Inquisitions and violent missionary attempts to wipe out indigenous religions are not wars.

Were they hugging contests?  War are very rarely fair.

You don't understand: the attempts by the Christian church to displace indigenous religions in Africa, south America, northern Europe, etc. through violence were fundamentally not wars, which involve 2 our more belligerents doing battle.

In most cases, they were more akin to wholesale, industrial slaughter and political repression. Would you say Germany was "at war" with the Jewish people?

And by the way, when religion is used to justify genocide, a ...


When did i justify genocide? I think it's an awful characteristic of humanity that these things happen but I won't deny that they do happen and seem to be part of our nature regardless of any religious affiliation.
 
2013-11-07 01:59:07 PM
DubtodaIll

You really think that there wouldn't be genocide without religion?

I think trying to kill off a people or culture because they believe different things about the world...believe different things, not threaten your well-being, your children, your ability to exist...is one of the most heinous concepts man has invented (or been ordered to essay, if you're a Jew/Christian/Muslim).

I think you responding to such an idea with "lol, war is rarely fair" is just...sick. I'm not kidding.
 
2013-11-07 02:09:52 PM

Facetious_Speciest: DubtodaIll

You really think that there wouldn't be genocide without religion?

I think trying to kill off a people or culture because they believe different things about the world...believe different things, not threaten your well-being, your children, your ability to exist...is one of the most heinous concepts man has invented (or been ordered to essay, if you're a Jew/Christian/Muslim).

I think you responding to such an idea with "lol, war is rarely fair" is just...sick. I'm not kidding.


I think war is atrocious but that doesn't make it any less real or any less of a contributor towards inspiration of future actions and decisions.  For example, the Mongol's riding across Eurasia slaughtering every army they engaged.  The reduction in population actually led to a large boom of culture as the demand for resources was greatly reduced however the knowledge for gathering and applying those resources was not lost.
 
2013-11-07 02:11:21 PM

DubtodaIll: udhq: udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:

Btw, people like to say that the church was responsible for nearly all art and culture of the middle ages, but this only appears to be the case to modern audiences because they systematically destroyed nearly piece of art and cultural accomplishment that failed to show adequate deference to their political power.

Again, being assigned beliefs I don't hold, however there is something to be said for being the one who writes the history.  Objectively one could call that "winning" and what allowed them to win was the tenets of their beliefs and the individuals those tenets created and inspired.

Umm, well, that and the part where they killed millions upon millions of dissidents.....

There's a reason that the period of human history defined by the hegemony of the Christian church is called "the dark ages."

I see you think that war is completely bad and that everyone who is born should live to 100 and that nothing bad should ever happen ever because religion.  War is part of human nature.  I can't say which came first between War and Religion but I would think we were competing amongst ourselves before we invented the notion of religion.  It's almost as if religion helped to bring order to chaos and pave the way for shining civilizations.

Inquisitions and violent missionary attempts to wipe out indigenous religions are not wars.

Were they hugging contests?  War are very rarely fair.

You don't understand: the attempts by the Christian church to displace indigenous religions in Africa, south America, northern Europe, etc. through violence were fundamentally not wars, which involve 2 our more belligerents doing battle.

In most cases, they were more akin to wholesale, industrial slaughter and political repression. Would you say Germany was "at war" with the Jewish people?

And by the way, when religion is used to justify genocide, a ...

When did i justify genocide? I think it's an awful characteristic of humanity that these things happen but I won't deny that they do happen and seem to be part of our nature regardless of any religious affiliation.


Part of human nature? Absolutely not. They seem to require a driving ideology, and in the cases I mentioned, that ideology was the Christian religion.

The holocaust completely ended eugenics as a legitimate school of thought, so why should we excuse the crimes pinned on religion?
 
2013-11-07 02:14:22 PM

udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: udhq: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles: DubtodaIll: ScaryBottles:
Part of human nature? Absolutely not. They seem to require a driving ideology, and in the cases I mentioned, that ideology was the Christian religion.

The holocaust completely ended eugenics as a legitimate school of thought, so why should we excuse the crimes pinned on religion?


Ending eugenics was a good thing.  Would it have ended without the apparent atrocities of the holocaust?  Were the proponents of eugenics not human and/or driven by their own natures?  If war isn't part of human nature, from where does it originate?
 
2013-11-07 02:39:39 PM

DubtodaIll: Ending eugenics was a good thing. Would it have ended without the apparent atrocities of the holocaust? Were the proponents of eugenics not human and/or driven by their own natures? If war isn't part of human nature, from where does it originate?


Well part of it happens when you devalue other human life. This is done in many different ways: citizens of other countries, different race, etc.

But a very common way is through religion. Other people are non-believers / heretics / etc. Once a person is seen as of less value then it is much easier to commit atrocities against them.

On top of that you throw in the get-out-of-jail-free card of "god tells you to do this" and religion becomes a powerful tool in motivating good people into doing bad things.

This is not speculation ... it is history.
 
Ant
2013-11-07 03:32:11 PM

DubtodaIll: should be protected under the First Amendment regardless of who it offends.


Is he being arrested? No? There you go, he's protected under the First Amendment. Employers don't have to let you say whatever you want. Try telling your boss that you think your company's products suck, and that you're going to tell everyone you know not to buy them.
 
Ant
2013-11-07 03:43:13 PM

DubtodaIll: It's a much smaller burden to tell your children to ignore the bus driver than it will be for this guy to find a job.


Jesus farking Christ, man! He wouldn't have had to find a new job if he'd have complied with the farking rules of his old farking job! Why are you being so farking obtuse?!?

/Hallelujiah! Holy shiat! Where's the Tylenol?
 
Ant
2013-11-07 03:44:14 PM

Pangea: DubtodaIll: Inquisitions and violent missionary attempts to wipe out indigenous religions are not wars.

Were they hugging contests?  War are very rarely fair.

Enjoy the thread, you've twisted this into something absurd at this point.

[teamshocker.com image 500x254]


Jane is hot
 
Ant
2013-11-07 03:55:03 PM

DubtodaIll: It's important that developing humans learn about everything possible.


Learn about != told to believe religious dogma as truth. I teach my 8-year-old son about religions. I would be pretty pissed off if some adult in a position of authority started telling him (as fact) that his body was full of the ghosts of aliens who'd died when an ancient 747 was crashed into a volcano by an evil emperor named Xenu, and that he needed to be cleared of these spirits..
 
2013-11-07 03:58:01 PM

Ant: DubtodaIll: It's important that developing humans learn about everything possible.

Learn about != told to believe religious dogma as truth. I teach my 8-year-old son about religions. I would be pretty pissed off if some adult in a position of authority started telling him (as fact) that his body was full of the ghosts of aliens who'd died when an ancient 747 was crashed into a volcano by an evil emperor named Xenu, and that he needed to be cleared of these spirits..


Ummm ... it was a DC8.

Please have some respect for other people's religions!!
 
2013-11-07 10:54:38 PM

Misch: cwolf20: How many religions besides Christianity did the news article say were on the bus again?

At least one other.

FTFA:
"Gayla Colin, a bus driver for 13 years in the district, told the Star Tribune that her former colleague's actions were inappropriate, especially since many of the students are Muslim."


Ah, missed that.  And glad someone noticed I was only referring to the article and not going in depth over the whole thing.
 
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